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/lit/ - Literature

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5875942 No.5875942 [Reply] [Original]

Did Christianity stymie theology? Before the Age of Christianity, a lot more questions were open and debated concerning divinity. Whether or not there was just one god, whether or not gods are perfect, whether the universe was created by gods or whether gods came about through the universe beginning, whether our relation with gods is reciprocal, whether we have a blissful afterlife etc. After Christianity became institutionalized, the answers to all these questions were dogmatized and theology's scope became tremendously limited.

>> No.5875947

You liked my idea about the simultaneously occurring alien invasions, eh? :)

To answer your question: Definitely.

>> No.5875961

>>5875947
Fuck.
You're still here?

>> No.5875968

>>5875961
I am everywhere.

>> No.5875995

>>5875942
Isn't theology already stymied by the acceptance of dogmatic positions by most of its students?

>> No.5876037

>>5875942
Your entire question rests on the misconception that there was no theological debate within Christianity and is thus completely irrelevant.

>> No.5876137

>>5875942
Before monotheism religion was barely different from myth. Theology is logos.

>> No.5876413

>>5875968
Your asshole might be gaping but it's not "everywhere."

>> No.5877481

>>5876037
No, it's not resting upon that premise at all. There was theological debate, but after Christianity became rigorized, the debate was within a very narrow margin relative to pre-Christian theology.

>> No.5877585

>>5876137
I strongly disagree with this, especially since prior to Christianity theology could be conducted without reference to miracles, and the myths played very little part in theology. Whereas after Christianity, everyone had to assume things like Christ was born of a virgin. Question, rewriting or altogether dismissing the myths was never stigmatized in pre-Christian theology, but if a Christian dismissed Christians myths, such as Christ rising from the dead, then it would be considered blasphemy.

>> No.5877708
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5877708

>>5875942
No faggot I have literally had discussion like that with my dumber pothead friends while smoking a blunt
You must be hanging about with some really stupid people if they don't question the meaning of god and so on

>> No.5877738

tl;dr - Christian revelation made paganism obsolete, this makes me mad, hellenismos please?

>> No.5879427

>>5877738
OP here: I'm not a pagan, but can you explain how Christianity made paganism obsolete when every rational element of Christianity came from Christian theologians appropriating the ideas of pagan thinkers? There's no rational argument in the Bible, after all..

>> No.5879454

>>5877481
>No, it's not resting upon that premise at all.
>>5875942
>After Christianity became institutionalized, the answers to all these questions were dogmatized

You just assumed that all questions were answered and dogmatized. You did not indicate that there were different dogmas or denominational disputes because you a) are unaware of these facts and/or b) desperately want to paint Christianity as hindering theological discourse. Get raped.

>> No.5879466

>>5879454
Yes, of course, there were Christian denominations that denied that God created the universe, or that God is perfect. Or maybe there were, but I'm certain they dealt with violently for suggesting these things.

>> No.5879484

>>5879466
>Yes, of course, there were Christian denominations that denied that God created the universe, or that God is perfect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism

Learn more, you smarmy fuck. Theology isn't a "Christian," "Muslim" or "Buddhist" enterprise. One religion can't prevent you from theorizing or writing. So do so if you have the talent (I say this only as a formality; it's evident you have neither talent nor learning).

>> No.5879490

>>5879484
They can burn your libraries and burn you for theorizing the wrong way, I'd call that "stopping"

>> No.5879498

>>5879490
>They can burn your libraries and burn you for theorizing the wrong way

Good thing you're not a Medieval heretic, just a slippery fuckwit who chooses to use the Internet as a platform to blubber about century-old injustices while pretending to give a damn about theology. If you cared, you would either be a) making up for all of the lost knowledge by the ebil crissins b) creating a thread with actual potential for theological conversation or c) finding better arguments than "they burned libraries centuries ago, that's why I can't into theology."

>> No.5879505

>>5879466
>violently

Lol.

>Doesn't know theology
>Doesn't know Origen
>Doesn't know Anselm
>Doesn't know Augustine
>Doesn't know Aquinas

shit on your own head, mate

>> No.5879509

>>5875942
It didn't stymie theology, it rationalized it. Or, really, created it, if you want to talk about theology as opposed to myth.

>> No.5879534

>>5879498
I'm unsure what sort of argument you're making here. Are you even making an argument, or just saying I'm lucky you don't have friends to torture me for dissenting with you?

>>5879509
I'm sorry, but the entire basis for Christianity is myth, a virgin birth and a guy coming back from the dead. No Christian theologian rejected these as literally true, whereas there were plenty of pagan theologians who rejected the myths as literally true, many who even rejected even value of the myths as fables.

>> No.5879549

>>5879534

Can you read? I am saying that you have the Internet and the ability to research and write about theology and the threat of Christians burning your library is utterly non-existent and has been for centuries.

Either discuss theology like a 21st century person or cry over a book of history (now with a prologue by Sir Dicky Dawkins!!!) with a warm glass of milk.

>> No.5879555

>>5879534
>I'm sorry, but the entire basis for Christianity is myth, a virgin birth and a guy coming back from the dead. No Christian theologian rejected these as literally true

>No Christian theologian rejected these as literally true

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fausto_Sozzini

Again: learn more.

>> No.5879559

Oh, yes, it most certainly did. It replaced a profound, nuanced and open theology with a rich philosophical literary tradition, with a goatherd puritanical religion that made erections a kind of sin. If Europe made Muslim the official religion and killed anyone who disagreed with it (I'm not saying that will happen, I just mean hypothetically), and banned core European traditions (like Theodosius banned the Olympics) and tore down European monuments, like the Eiffel tower, etc. That's basically what Christianity did to pagan Europe.

>> No.5879565
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5879565

>>5879559
What in the fuck are you talking about. Christianity was used by the Romans when they found it useful. The rest of Europe was filled with illiterate barbarians.

When those illiterate barbarians sacked Rome, Christian monasteries were the only thing keeping literacy in Europe at all.

What the fuck are talking about.

>> No.5879573

>>5879549
Yes, because Christianity has stopped progress in theology for 1500 years, it's not big deal because it can just get going again from where it left off.

>>5879555
This runs against mainstream Christianity, but it hardly says that God didn't create the universe or that God isn't perfect. It says God doesn't see what is possible, but only what will be...but if what will be is sure to be, then it is the same as what is possible.

>> No.5879580

>>5879565
This is fucking stupid. You're saying no one would have preserved the books but Christians? Stupid. And it doesn't even contradict anything else I've said.

>> No.5879594

>>5879565
>When those illiterate barbarians sacked Rome, Christian monasteries were the only thing keeping literacy in Europe at all.
Pretty sure most of the texts were kept alive by the Imperial Library at Constantinople, copies from it helped start the Renaissance.

>> No.5879602

>>5879573
>progress in theology

Meaning?

>muh teleology

>1500 years

Yeah the second jesus showed up ALL theology around the world stopped

>> No.5879607

>After Christianity became institutionalized

so then maybe it was institutionalisation that stymied theology rather than christianity in itself

>> No.5879608

>>5875942
>Did Christianity stymie theology?
No.

>>5879505
Yes, in addition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

Any one of those guys shows that OP is retarded.

>> No.5879614

>>5879573
Why is thinking that God didn't create the universe or is imperfect a progression in theology? If anything, that's a regression to paganism. The Greek gods are all flawed, and they didn't have a singular creator deity. Christian theology is the only rational inquiry into the nature of God that western culture has.

>> No.5879621

>>5879580
Who was going to preserve them, the Vikings? Who couldn't read or write? Or the Visigoths? Who couldn't read or write? Or the Gauls? Who couldn't read or write?

>> No.5879625

>>5875947
>simultaneously occurring alien invasions

whats that?

>> No.5879635

>>5879621
? there are many examples of carolingian and ottonian manuscripts

>> No.5879645

>>5879635
Weren't they quite a bit after the Visigoth sacking of Rome? By that point, yeah, Europe was less barbarous, but Europe was also a lot more Christian at that point.

>> No.5879647

>>5879607
Not really, unless they say things about God that the OP listed.

>> No.5879651

>>5879621
Not that guy, but did the barbarians kill all Roman scholars or something? And was Rome really the capital of preserved works? I thought Constantinople was, like this guy said
>>5879594

>> No.5879710

>>5879651
Constantinople was, correct. I'm just talking about in the European history, and not world history. Europe had a flourishing once they rediscovered a lot of lost texts (lost to them), but they at least had some texts thanks to the monastic orders. May have been nothing to Enlighten if Europe was nothing but illiterate pillagers.

>> No.5879731

>>5879710
Are you saying that the barbarians burned every copy of the Plato and Aristotle in Europe but those in the monasteries? I suppose that's possible, but it seems very unlikely unless the barbarians respected monasteries more than libraries for some reason.

>> No.5879740

>>5879602
>>progress in theology
>Meaning?

I like how op glossed over this one

>> No.5879744

>>5879731
It is my understanding that a few things happened once Rome's Western Empire fell. Only a few people could read or write in the first place, and the economic collapse meant books were not useful, and neither was reading. Even IN monasteries, we know that scrolls and books were used to kindle fires and rest pots on and stuff. So, what wasn't destroyed in the pillage was most likely just destroyed over time regardless.

It's also my understanding that some monasteries were very far removed from cities and whatnot, and as such were enclaves of Roman culture, removed from the Empire's collapse.

People can tell me if I'm wrong, but I think most of the books not in far-flung monasteries were destroyed out of neglect over time as collapse sent their society into the shitter.

>> No.5879767

>>5879740
Refining arguments, presumably, and uncovering various new possibilities and perspectives. Same thing as "progress" in philosophy.

>>5879744
Very possible, but I imagine some had to be preserved since the upper crust still had to have their education.

>> No.5879789

>>5875942
I thought the whole point that Christ was making was to distill the dogma into the core meaning; love and self sacrifice, and whatnot.

>> No.5879801

>>5879484
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
You mean the denomination that was labelled heretic and was exterminated and its leader died a violent death?

Also it was something like a cross between Christianity and gnosticism.

>> No.5879806

>>5879549
Why are Christfags so butthurt?

>> No.5879894

>>5879427
>pagan thinkers
>Plato and Aristotle
Pick 1.

>> No.5879904

>>5879894
Ah, sorry, meant to say Christian thinkers.

>> No.5879908

>>5879894
Are you suggesting that henotheism is not pagan?

>> No.5879910

>>5879806
It's like the older brother who has just told the younger one that Santa isn't real. They're all going through four of the five stages of denial repeatedly

>> No.5880075

>>5879910
>not being a Christian
Badass hat you have on, there.

>> No.5880082

>>5879894

>their books are riddled with references ti Zeus, Greek mythology, etc.
>somehow they were totally not pagan

>> No.5880092

>>5880075

You sound very hurt in the ass

>> No.5880093

>>5880082
Why are Hellenists so stupid? Shit like this and "is sex spiritual" horseshit.

Plato and Aristotle, if anything, were proto-Christians, their philosophies and reasoning play a tremendous part in Christian theology. They believed in one divine creator and they didn't worship other gods, that's why they killed Socrates. They would botht surely have been Christians if they were alive when Christ was, they only use the names of the gods in a loose, poetic sense.

>> No.5880109

>>5880093

>Plato and Aristotle, if anything, were proto-Christians
>Plato and Aristotle
>proto-Christians

Sometimes it's simply amazing how much cognitive dissonance Christians are actually able to possess without their heads exploding

>> No.5880119

>>5880109
Maybe I should enlighten you: Plato and Aristotle survived because their theological tradition was carried on by Saint Augustine and Saint Aquinas, Christianity is the primary channel of both philosophers, it is the realization of their philosophy.

>> No.5880126

>>5880109
What the hell. Aristotle believed in a un-moved Mover and Plato was about the highest ideal form. That's monotheism.' Even if it's not, philosophy still is leaving mythos behind and putting logos ahead.

>> No.5880129

>>5880126
Henotheism. Close to monotheism, but not quite the same thing.

>> No.5880134

>>5880119

That has nothing to do with Plato and Aristotle being proto-Christians, which is completely impossible. You simply applied Christian spin to the fact that Augustine and Aquinas ripped off Plato and Aristotle, and then pretended they came up with it with the help of Jesus

>> No.5880140

>>5880134
Goddamn, pagans are the most retarded heathenish filth on the planet. Both Augustine and Aquinas extensively mentioned their source of inspiration.

>> No.5880148

>>5880126

>that's monotheism
>even if it's not, it still is because I say so

And yet you people still wonder why you're not being taken seriously

>> No.5880157

>>5880129
Christianity is henotheistic, actually. Or was at first. God is the "one true god", not the only god. At least, was, especially when it was just the religion of the Hebrews.

"Our god is better than your god" sort of thing.

Christianity was conceived in a Henotheistic Judaism.

>> No.5880160
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5880160

>>5880134
>That has nothing to do with Plato and Aristotle being proto-Christians, which is completely impossible
Get a load of this good goy. Christianity was the logical continuation of Western culture, brah, the Greeks, especially their great thinkers, were proto-Christian in this sense.

>> No.5880162

>>5880157
An important aspect of henotheism is not seeing anything wrong with worshiping more gods than the primary one.

>> No.5880167

>>5880148
Aristotle is CERTAINLY monotheism, while Plato I wouldn't personally argue.

What the fuck do you think an Unmoved Mover is? And do you seriously believe Aristotle was so stupid that he'd have an objective morality system if the Unmoved Mover was meaningless?

Contemplation of the Unmoved Mover is #1 in Aristotle's philosophy. From that, one necessarily derives all morality and purpose, or "excellent action". Hell, he's proto-Rationalist.

>> No.5880172

>>5880093
>Plato and Aristotle, if anything, were proto-Christians

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

>> No.5880174

>>5880162
I suppose. We're splitting hairs at this point. Monotheism tends to imply there are no other gods in existence. Is there a word for specifically a belief that believes in the existence of multiple gods, but only allows the worship of a specific god?

>> No.5880180

>>5880167

>What the fuck do you think an Unmoved Mover is?

A shitty word game?

>> No.5880183

>>5880167
Aristotelia ethics is based off eudaimonia, not eusebeia

>> No.5880185

>>5880174
That really depends on how you define "gods". If you mean no other extremely powerful supernatural entities, obviously not, since many Christians believe in angels, the Devil, etc.

>> No.5880399

>>5880160
> Christianity was the logical continuation of Western culture,

Top fucking kek. Theology was Christianity's logical continuation, with Augustine and Aquinas sucking Aristotle and Plato's dicks. That doesn't make Aristotle and Plato proto christian, if anything Augustine and Aquinas are quasi-pagan

>> No.5880873

>>5879894
>Plato and Aristotle...killed Socrates
Are you fucking serious, you idiot?
They weren't 'proto-Christian,' the Church acknowledged them as good pagans. They had never heard of Jesus Christ because-guess what-when Aristotle died, He had not yet been born. The new covenant hadn't been established yet. How could anyone be a Christian before the birth of Christ?
Aquinas used Avicenna's ideas, does that mean Avicenna was a Christian?

>> No.5880899

>>5879801
>died a violent death

Do you have an account of Marcion's death? He certainly wasn't killed by other Christians, so I've no idea what you're on about here.

>> No.5881389

>>5880183
The greatest good was still to contemplate the Unmoved Mover. Doing this correctly necessarily forces you to excellent action and virtue, though, and it's not FOR the Unmoved Mover.

>> No.5881846

>>5881389
I think Marcion predates the institutionalization of Christianity.

>> No.5881905

>>5879427
Pagan philosophers had a huge influence on Christianity, but not because they were pagans, obviously. Also the ideas of those philosophers was world's apart from the practices of the average pagan.

And revelation makes certain topics of discussion obsolete by virtue of revelation. Revealed truth will necessarily make certain ideas obsolete. If you have God come to Earth and he starts talking about the nature of reality, obviously any ideas that do not mesh with this revealed truth will become obsolete. In this sense, to talk about christianity stifling debate on certain ideas is nonsensical. Of course it did, because in that tradition God literally came to Earth and told us certain things about reality.

>> No.5882149

>>5881905
>Also the ideas of those philosophers was world's apart from the practices of the average pagan.
The ideas of Augustine are worlds apart from the practices of the average Christian.

>Of course it did, because in that tradition God literally came to Earth and told us certain things about reality.
Yes, but see, religions prior to Christianity didn't let their myths dictate theological dogma. Christian myths are central to Christianity. Even if you take most as metaphorical, they are considered to be the authentic word of God, you can't rewrite them in another fashion or dismiss their importance, and the myths of Christ are taken as literal, their literal truth is the core of Christianity.

You can say god revealed this or that when this god came down in human form, mysteries especially liked to do that, but these assertions were not theological dogma.

And the Greek religion wasn't the only one like this.

>Egyptian myths were metaphorical stories intended to illustrate and explain the gods' actions and roles in nature. The details of the events they recounted could change to convey different symbolic perspectives on the mysterious divine events they described, so many myths exist in different and conflicting versions.[48]

>> No.5883144

>>5881846
Meant for
>>5880899

>> No.5883187

>>5875942
It's just the natural process of larger, broader popular religions overtaking smaller mysterious cults. Far more than just Christianity, for example, Buddhism (another great proselytizing religion). Zoroastrianism, and later Islam standardized and solidified world spirituality more than ever before.

>> No.5883229

>>5879509
Building upon what he said I believe Christianity as a whole lead to a kind of spiritual standardization where a real theology is really possible due to a wider community of spirituals believing in central tenants and building on their worldview from there. Myth is more spiritual literature than anything, Theology is more a spiritual science. If anything, Christianity unified many pagan cults of the Mediterranean (the Mithraic influence in Christianity is very evident), into one all-encompassing monotheistic religion, though with angels and spirits and saints etc as parts of heaven or in union with God in some form.

>> No.5883248
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>>5883229

>> No.5883269 [DELETED] 
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5883269

>>5883229
reported for announcing reports

>> No.5883282

>>5883269
Off-topic.

>> No.5883289
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>>5883282

>> No.5883305

>>5875942
Did you forget there's a large portion of the world that did theology and weren't Christians, or even that there have been a variety of theologies within Christianity itself?

>> No.5884097

>>5880172
>mfw pagans actually try to use revisionism to claim philosophers as their own

Face it, pal, paganism never contributed anything, it's a primitive stage of tribal religion we grew out of

>> No.5884121

>>5883248
Pretty cool map

Kek'd at Russia.

>> No.5886293

>>5883305
>there have been a variety of theologies within Christianity itself?
Not "wide" relative to pre-Christian theology. It's like killing off every breed of dog but one and then saying each dog of that breed is unique and special.

>> No.5887506

>>5875942
because love conquers everything

>> No.5887552

>>5886293
It's more like the breeds within the dog species, but nice try, asshole.

>> No.5887573

Islamic theology exists
Jewish theology at times reacted to Christian theology, spurring 'growth' if you want to use an idiotic term like that
Asia has theology entirely separate from Christian theology

>> No.5887654

>>5887552
No, it's not, since only the Christian breed with its very specific doctrines is left. There is diversity within that, but nearly all of the major questions have dogmatized answers.

>> No.5887661

>>5887573
Islam and Judaism both share the same fundamental dogma: God is perfect, God is omnipotent, God created everything, God is singular.

>> No.5887670

>>5887654
You're not saying anything that doesn't apply to every other religion, you're just being awfully negative, closedminded and erroneously obtuse about it.

>> No.5887673

>>5887661
Those also apply to Christianity.
>>5887654
See >>5887573

>> No.5887676

>>5887654
>>5887670
Therefore, where religion is animal, Christianity is dog. You're only trying to reduce it in order to make it seem more generic than it actually is

>> No.5887686

>>5887670
No, I'm not. Within pagan religions, most of the questions closed in Christianity were quite open, and there was plenty of cross-pollination between faiths.

>> No.5887690

>>5887676
No, where religion is dog, then Christianity is a specific breed. But if you want to make religion "animal" int he analogy instead, then, yeah, sure, it's like having and island full of all sorts of animals, and then killing off every species but dog, and then pointing to the breeds and saying there's plenty of animal diversity.

>> No.5887699

Fedorafags are always so funny, trying to complain about particular schools of thought claiming monopoly over their focal issues. Don't they know how categorization works? If we didn't label these idealogical currents, which is what they seem to want, we'd be no better off.

>> No.5887708

>>5887686
>No, I'm not.
Yes, you are. Being indecisive and argumentative for teh sake of it isn't a virtue. There's a difference between being openminded and being ambivalent.
>No, where religion is dog, then Christianity is a specific breed. But if you want to make religion "animal" int he analogy instead, then, yeah, sure
>No, but yeah, as long as your specified criteria applies
>more hateful THEY DESTROYED IT ALL trolls
What the fuck is wrong with you?

>> No.5887712

>>5887690
see
>>5887708
in case your programming caused you to overlook an unlinked post

>> No.5887719

>>5887708
Christianity as a institutionalized religion killed the vast majority religions and theological perspectives in the West. Are you disagreeing with this?

>> No.5887728

>>5887719
>everything that's every won the popularity contest "killed" widespread competition
FTFY sorry your club lost, madbro

>> No.5887746

>>5887728
Christianity won the "popularity contest" by destroying temples, outlawing other religions, banning the Olympics, and things like that.

>> No.5887749

>>5887746
And if someone else had a better idea, they would have stood up for it more effectively. Grief doesn't do anyone any good, get over it.

>> No.5887754

>>5887749
This is damn retarded, dog. Putting gun to every one's head at table and saying they can only talk about your ideas doesn't make your ideas any more valid, it just makes the gun valid.

>> No.5887768

>>5887754
If I really had some philosophical gold, I'd be smart enough to not get pwned by one guy with a spiffy toy when I'm sitting at the same table as some of the most brutal motherfuckers to ever walk the face of the earth.

>> No.5887771

>>5887768
What the fuck are you on about, you could get a table of the people with the highest IQ in the world, and if you have a bunch of thugs armed with guns, the IQ isn't going to do shit.

>> No.5887773

>>5887749
>they would have stood up for it more effectively

what on earth are you talking about

>> No.5887778

>>5887771
>>5887773
It's almost like you forget that everyone else had "guns" too.

2/10 troll harder, nigger

>> No.5887780

>>5887778
no really what the hell are you talking about

>> No.5887781

>>5887749
>Grief does not do anyone any good

Neither does Christianity.

>> No.5887787

>>5887778
And that really doesn't change anything. IQ doesn't mean you can gunfight better, or that you're willing to die because someone else is being autistic and violent. If we get in a gunfight over some theory, the outcome of the fight in no way determines the theory's validity. Nor is the validity determined by my renouncing it with a gun to my head.

>> No.5887791

>>5887780
I don't know, homie is going all ape shit about how supposedly superior thinkers got suckerpunched by a couple of country bumpkins with bulletproof bibles, I guess. Seems more likely that theirs was the dominant civilization because they had they had superior ideas in general, though.
>>5887781
Out of material, are you?

>> No.5887793

>>5884097
I think you do a discredit to Thursdays.
No, but really practically everything in European culture is inherently pagan.
So go back and try again.

>> No.5887795

>>5887787
But if it was so special, they would have fought better to defend it. And, yes, intellectual prowess has way more to do with the outcome of warfare than you'd like to think, you stupid hippie.

>> No.5887796

>>5887791
>Seems more likely that theirs was the dominant civilization because they had they had superior ideas in general, though.
Yes, banning the Olympics was due to the intellectual superiority of the Christianity.

>> No.5887802

>>5887795
>But if it was so special, they would have fought better to defend it.
What do you mean by "special"? There are plenty of special ideas, I'm saying killing people for dissenting doesn't impact the quality of their ideas, neither does failure to resist retard-strength sperglords who can't tolerate diversity of opinion.

>> No.5887805

>>5887796
Oh, boo hoo, grampa couldn't throw a plate with a bunch of other naked homos to see who could stoke the other guy off better, big deal. You act as if some banal sporting events are the ppinnacle of human achievement. Hey, faggt, it's football season; go entertain yourself in a more suiting manner, with a bucket of beer and your toilet recliner.

>> No.5887810

>>5887805
>le being ironically retarded is so le funny xD

>> No.5887811

>>5887795
Are you implying that because Western culture has moved away from Christianity at such an alarming rate that the Christians now feel persecuted and struggle for relevance that it is because they are no longer special?

>> No.5887825

>>5887802
But when you have a bunch of folks who were supposed to be so smart, why didn't they devise a way to destroy the evil Jebus culties?
>>5887810
Sounds like I touched a nerve.
>>5887811
Nah, man, this whole thing has been about how asstastically shaftmasted you guys are for losing the game millenia ago. Enjoy your shallow, uninspired reconstructions tho :3

Protip: Christianity didn't do any of this, people who claimed to be Christians without carrying out the law... "turn the other cheek", "love thy neighbor" etc

>> No.5887827

literally the sole reason christianity grew like it did was because of constantine

fuck everyone

>> No.5887831

>>5887825
>But when you have a bunch of folks who were supposed to be so smart, why didn't they devise a way to destroy the evil Jebus culties?

they did try. and even when christianity was finally made legal there was still backlash against its growing power

>> No.5887834

>>5887831
So they weren't as smart as they thought. Perhaps more about these "great" civilizations should come into question.

>> No.5887840

>>5887834
something tells me you know nothing of late antiquity

anyway paganism basically lives on in the catholic church so really they won

>> No.5887843

>>5887840
see
>>5887825
>people who claimed to be Christians
Thanks for clarifying my statement. Expose the Jesuit scum while you can.

>> No.5887845

>>5887825
>how shaftmasted you guys got millenia ago

I am not a pagan nor am I the other guy in this thread who spoke for them.
I did however say something to the effect of pre-Christian culture in Europe is inherently the European culture still to this day.
But keep trying to aggress against every one who dislikes Christianity.

>> No.5887852

christianity won because it was unified and consistent, not because its philosophy was better

>> No.5887855

>>5887825
>carrying out the law

jesus is the reality of the law

>> No.5887856

>>5887845
Why do you feel the need to clarify that you're a special little snowflake, you fucking attention whore? That's as transparent a samefag as any that's been displayed in here tonight.
>>5887855
Yeah and they didn't do a very good job of following his example.

>> No.5887860

>>5887825
>shallow uninspired reconstruction
>implying the entire bible isn't a reconstruction of jewish myth and anecdotes.
>implying that the Catholic Church is not utterly just a pagan infused organization with the Semetic godhead

>> No.5887861

>>5887856
>following his example.

not the point. it's literally impossible to follow the example of a sinless god-man

>> No.5887864

>>5887852
I think you're trying to separate the quality of the practitioner from the quality of the practice. Winners don't flock to losers.

>> No.5887869

>>5887856
Wow you are really angry lol. You should learn to chill dude the Messiah is on YOUR side isn't he?

>> No.5887875

>>5887860
lol nice try, but even some of the least knowleedgable Christians know of the canon's history and the Holy C***'s corruption.
>>5887861
It's not at all impossible to follow his instructions. What you're suggesting isn't Christianity at all.
>>5887869
>can't argue
>u mad
In my day, trolling meant something.

>> No.5887879

>>5887875
>What you're suggesting isn't Christianity at all.

no, what you're suggesting isn't christianity. you're taking bible verses out of context

>> No.5887883

>>5887875
Look at this guy. He calls every one in the neo pagan movement a buttmad snowflake then deftly avoids me when I note that literally everything in European culture is inspired by ancient pagan culture. He says a bunch of hateful bullshit then calls me a troll for calling him out.
I love this dude. He is like the Sean Hannity of theological discussion.

Please stay, anon.

>> No.5887885

>>5887879
I'm not. You just don't know the context. Love God above all else and love thy neighbor as thyself. That's it. If you're going to literally try to BE Christ, you're doing nothing to fulfill His wishes. On the contrary, you're partaking in the garden's lie.

>> No.5887891

>>5887883
>everything in European culture is inspired by ancient pagan culture
Snowflake syndrome hipster/10

>> No.5887896

>>5887885
>That's it.

also be baptised and call on the lord's name

you wouldn't know why though

>> No.5887897

>Did Christianity stymie theology?
Is this a rhetorical question?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-paganism_policy_of_Theodosius_I

>> No.5887901

>>5887896
We were discussing the overbearing tactics of the RCC, tho, not the nuances of personal salvation.

>> No.5887905

>>5887901
>not the nuances of personal salvation.

they are christ's instructions though

>> No.5887906

>>5887891
Here is the thing. You demand that people bring forward thinking discussion to the table then shoot them down and throw a temper tantrum everytime they bring up a point you cannot finely articulate against.
Will you be trolling with us long?

>> No.5887908

Things we consider modern and progressive that were invented by Pagans.

>Democracy.
Credited to the Greeks, but also seen among the native Americans.
>Women's rights.
While the Greeks were Misogynistic by today's standards, women held a high position in Norse society, capable of owning property and divorcing their husbands.
>Advanced Mathematics
Invented by the Hindus.
>Atoms.
The idea that matter is made out of discrete particles was postulated by Epicurus, similar ideas were held by some Hindu scholars.
>Personal Hygene
Misdeal Christians considered baths to be pagan decadence. The entire rest of the world were building elaborate bathhouses.

While the enlightenment and Islamic golden age had a lot of great advances in science. These could have all happened in a sufficiently wealthy pagan society as well, and many of the supposed advances were just re-discovering things pagans discovered thousands of years earlier.

>> No.5887913

>>5887905
Okay, but those particular instructions have nothing to do with our discussion of the RCC, just like you weird Zeitgeist interpretation of following Christ being becoming gods ourselves. Do try to keep up.

>> No.5887918

>>5887908
>Misdeal Christians considered baths to be pagan decadence.
That's because people were fucking the bathhouses, you heretic fuckwit.

>> No.5887920

>>5887913
>Okay, but those particular instructions have nothing to do with our discussion of the RCC

neither does "they should have just outsmarted them or they're not smart"

>just like you weird Zeitgeist interpretation of following Christ being becoming gods ourselves.

if you misread peoples posts this badly, what are you still doing in this thread?

>> No.5887934

>>5887920
>neither does "they should have just outsmarted them or they're not smart"
That has everything to do with it, because had th4ey been smarter they might have stood a chance against such lower thinkers as those filthy Christians, right?
>misread
You said...
>>5887861
>it's literally impossible to follow the example of a sinless god-man
...as if becoming the same type of being in every respect as Him is required to follow his example? You're not very bright, especially to deny that you'd said it. I suggest you see >>5887906
because as purposefully general as it is, I can see now this post indeed holds truth, but that it could not have possibly been meant for me.

>> No.5887937

>>5887934
>That has everything to do with it, because had th4ey been smarter they might have stood a chance against such lower thinkers as those filthy Christians, right?
A bit bold to assume that where society all has access to the same technology, that the smarter people will prevail in any violent conflict.

>> No.5887938

>>5887937
see
>>5887795
...you stupid hippie

>> No.5887943

>>5887938
So you're saying that if you took the world's top fifteen scientists and pitted them against fifteen members of the Taliban in the middle of the desert, both sides armed with the same weapons, that the people who were smarter would win the engagement?

>> No.5887945

>>5887934
>because had th4ey been smarter they might have stood a chance against such lower thinkers as those filthy Christians, right?

the RCC standing a chance against christians?

>...as if becoming the same type of being in every respect as Him is required to follow his example?

that is what an example is. then later you changed it to "follow his instructions" like it means the same thing.

>> No.5887949

>>5887943
maybe if it was warner von braun, that dude looks like a fucking gee

>> No.5887951

>>5887934
Oh of course not shouting down at the idea of a pagan influenced Europe is not you at all.

>> No.5887971

>>5887951
Not even a pagan influenced Europe. Paganism and Europe are inseparable.

>> No.5887973

>>5887943
I'm saying that advanced civilizations have advanced capabilities and, thus, advantage in a combat scenario. They were too pleb to compete and they had way more than a few guys and a few moments of preparation.
>>5887945
You're not being coherent, bud. That's not what an example needs to be. Both terms are interchangable here, in Christ;s works of peace. You seriously misunderstand the theology of the religion you rail against if you seriously think Christianity asks us to be Christ.
>>5887951
It was once written, there is nothing new under the sun.

>> No.5887978

>>5880157
this is actually false. you're close but you're not educated enough. judaism was originally henotheistic and the earlier parts of the bible reflect this, but it became strictly monotheistic before christ was born. christianity was strictly monotheist from the start. paul says in one of his epistles that other gods don't actually exist.

>> No.5887981

>>5887973
>I'm saying that advanced civilizations have advanced capabilities
You're talking about two civilizations of different evolution over a long period of time. And by the way, the guys using the tech in those civilizations are not the ones who invented it.

In this scenario, it's a conflict WITHIN society where everyone has access to the same technology.

>> No.5887984

>>5887973
>religion you rail against

lol?

talk about coherency

>if you seriously think Christianity asks us to be Christ.

i'm saying following his example is NOT the point. i literally said that. but you seem to think i'm saying that is the point?

again, talk about coherency.

no one knows what the hell you're trying to say and it's probably because you are struggling to understand even the most basic of points i.e. "something is not this way" "oh, so you're saying it is this way?"

>> No.5887986

>>5887981
So if they couldn't even do something as simple as whoop ass, what makes you think they had more advanced spiritual structures?

>> No.5887987

>>5887973
can you run us through what you believe to be the history of the church v pagan religions? because you seem to think that intelligence makes itself apparent regardless of context.

>> No.5887992
File: 585 KB, 529x648, damnyouredumb.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5887992

>>5887984
>lol?
It might sound like a foreign concept, but claiming the serpent's lie as Christ's instructions is something of a folly in this realm of thought.
>i'm saying following his example is NOT the point. i literally said that. but you seem to think i'm saying that is the point?
Coherency, son.
>it's literally impossible to follow the example of a sinless god-man
Not if you're meant to do as he did, not be who he was.
>no one knows what the hell you're trying to say
Speak for yourself.

>> No.5887998

>>5887986
Er, a gang-banger could whip the ass of just about any academic professor, that doesn't make professor stupid.

>> No.5887999

>>5887918
>Not fucking in bathhouses.

Why do you Abrahamists hate freedom. Oh yeah, it's because your god commands you to mutilate your dicks and beat your wives.

>> No.5888000

>>5887999
>muh feminism
Sure is degeneracy in here. And for your information, Christianity does not require circumcision, that's practiced in America because of you know who.

>> No.5888003

>>5887998
If the professor were smart, he'd carry a weapon and be trained to defend himself. We're not talking about one dude who may or may not have had the time to accomplish this. We're talking a countryside full of these guys, who spend so much of their time focusing not only on the "superior" pagan faiths, but the type of barbarism that should have sealed their place in the region as kings. They weren't very good at either, apparantly.

>> No.5888007

>>5887992
>It might sound like a foreign concept, but claiming the serpent's lie as Christ's instructions is something of a folly in this realm of thought.

which lie is that? is it something you claimed i said but actually i didn't?

>Coherency, son.

this doesn't acknowledge anything you are responding to

>you're meant to do as he did

perform miracles and signs? transfigure yourself before your disciples? die on the cross and resurrect? ascend to the right hand of god and dispense your spirit into humanity?

you can't do as he did. he has done as he has done (as only he can do) to save humanity. the only thing we can do now is grow in him rather than repeat his works like the new testament is an instruction manual. that is failing to see the spirit in the words. at that point you're essentially a pharisee

>Speak for yourself.

simply ebin

>> No.5888009

>>5888003
>If the professor were smart, he'd carry a weapon and be trained to defend himself
Then most professors are really stupid, unlike gang-bangers. Maybe we should higher gang-bangers to teach uni?

>> No.5888011

>>5888000
>Christianity does not require circumcision
This. The revelation of the practice to Abraham was far more tame than what we see today. It was entirely symbolic and the young male carried no lasting disfigurement.

Fuck the establishment.

>> No.5888027

>>5888000
If anything is Degenerate, it's Abrahamism. What did Christians ever do that atheists or pagans didn't do first?

>In b4 Christians trying to take credit for modern scientific advancements.

>> No.5888030

>>5887973
Ok so you admit that European paganism survived throughout the Catholic indoctrination.
Ok good because I have been trying to get that through with an anon about for the last hour and his only reply is that I can't argue and I am a special snowflake.

Not only has paganism survived but Europe is pagan. Paganism did not vanish. Look at Wagner, European folklore, the preservation and popularity of Greek, Roman, and Latin plays and myths. Look at the days of the week. Look at Beowulf. It's all there. It has all been there. It will never go anywhere. Christianity could not have even found success in Europe without incorporating paganism into their religion everywhere they went.

>> No.5888032

>>5888027
>muh scientism
back to reddit

>> No.5888033

>>5888007
>something you claimed i said but actually i didn't?
see
>>5887861
>it's literally impossible to follow the example of a sinless god-man
You've heard that you can't fix stupid, right? You can't whitewash it, either. You're failing at both; stop trying. Coherency, son.
>perform miracles and signs?
John 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."
>transfigure yourself before your disciples?
>die on the cross and resurrect?
Revelation 2:7 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
>ascend to the right hand of god and dispense your spirit into humanity?
No, because we are not Christ.
>you can't do as he did
Again, Love God above all else and love thy neighbor as thyself. Just stop.

>> No.5888036

>>5888030
What the hell does any of that have to do with with theology? Those are just customs, and for every one preserved a dozen were destroyed.

>> No.5888046

>>5888030
But those aren't the heart of their mysteries, just a shadow of its exotericism. Nothing of what you entertain was sufficient to perserve the faiths.

>> No.5888058

>>5888000
You sound like a reactionist.

>> No.5888061

>>5888058
you sound like a leftary

>> No.5888080

>>5888033
>You're failing at both; stop trying. Coherency, son.

according to your bizarre interpretation of what i'm saying? noted

>anyone who has faith in me
>the only thing we can do now is grow in him rather than repeat his works like the new testament is an instruction manual.

>overcometh

what do you think this means? i don't see the relevance

>Love God above all else and love thy neighbor as thyself.

love god of course as faith works through love. loving thy neighbour is not an instruction; rather it is how people act with christ strongly in their spirit

and of course baptism, calling the name, which you think is not relevant for some reason

>> No.5888099

>>5888080
>interpretation
You said it, not me.
>>5887861
>it's literally impossible to follow the example of a sinless god-man
Your semantic interpretation of the word 'example' is errant.
>what do you think
You seem to have me all figured out, why ask? /sarcasm
You don't hide it that you're cherrypicking and skewing one thing to make yourself look like less of a faggot, btw.
>I don't see
That's a perosnal problem.
>not an instruction
These were called something like the two great commandments for a reason, kid.
>you think is not relevant
I never said that, I said it wasn't relevant to a discussion of the problem of the RCC's war-oriented policies.

Are you done being stupid yet?

>> No.5888113

>>5888009
>>5887987
You're forgetting that there were numerous, well-prepared faggots who got their asses railed hard when they spent their entire lives training for it, not some sad briefcase jockey without a clue.

>> No.5888114

>>5888046
The faiths have been preserved. You just don't like that they are and now have to come up with an excuse to invalidate them like 'reconstruction'. Religions of all the ages and every culture have been reconstructed and changed from within and without anyway. Arguing that neo-paganism is invalid because it is not exactly like pre-Christian paganism is kind of foolish, and ignorant of the behavior of religions.

>>5888036
The argument was that paganism was somehow inferior to Christianity because it did not stand the test of time although it did stand the test of time and has found a place within our culture beside Christianity.

>> No.5888118

>>5888099
>You said it, not me.

you misinterpreted it, not me. you keep omitting the part where i said "not the point" like you think i'm going to forget i even said it

when i say "it's not the point", i don't actually mean "it's the point" like you seem to think

the point of christianity is salvation and to return humanity to god. loving god above all else will get you into the kingdom of the heavens, but it will not grant you salvation.

>You seem to have me all figured out, why ask?

because i can't respond to your verse if i don't know why you brought it up. i guess it is just an irrelevant verse since you can't even justify why you said it

>You don't hide it that you're cherrypicking and skewing one thing to make yourself look like less of a faggot, btw.

is it opposites day?

>That's a perosnal problem.

no it's your inability to explain yourself

>These were called something like the two great commandments for a reason, kid.

yeah and you don't understand why because you don't know what you're talking about

>I said it wasn't relevant to a discussion of the problem of the RCC's war-oriented policies.

it has become increasingly obvious that you don't really know anything about christianity, yet you insist on arguing about it

>Are you done being stupid yet?

are you done with transparent posturing?

>> No.5888121

>>5888114
>The argument was that paganism was somehow inferior to Christianity because it did not stand the test of time although it did stand the test of time and has found a place within our culture beside Christianity.
They have, but that doesn't mean most questions were completely excluded from theology for well over a 1500 years and are only just barely becoming recognized again.

>> No.5888122

>>5888114
>The faiths have been preserved.
Your reconstructions? Not but superficially.
>You just don't like
LOL typical butthurt generalization
>b-but it's just as good even though it's different
No. Jsut... no.

>> No.5888124

>>5888113
what are you even talking about?

>well-prepared faggots

literally who?

>> No.5888145

>>5888122
Superficiality is your own interpretation and I already addressed the matter of reconstruction.
Keep trying to undermine everything you can't argue as buttmad vitriol buddy.

>> No.5888151

>>5888118
>you misinterpreted it, not me
Nope, you misinterpreted both it and me, else you would have never brought it up. And now you're trying to defend it like an autist, taking you like an hour and a half to come up with an excuse you found to be adequate. It isn't.
>I can't follow you, so I'll just assume you have nothing to say
You must do well in school lol
>opposites day
How quaint an argument. Try harder.
>your inability to explain yourself
I shouldn't need to hold your hand through a simple conversation. Keep up.
>you don't understand why because you don't know what you're talking about
If that were the case, I wouldn't be correcting you on their merit as instructions in the proper sense of the word.
>you don't really know anything about christianity
>because you acknowledge that violence is often unnecessary, even when the devil hides behind the cross
Wow, you've stooped to new lows here.
>transparent posturing
What is this, Parrot Things You Heard Christians Say About You Day?

Stay mad.

>> No.5888158

>>5888121
The fact that Christianity excluded the discussion of other faiths and even turned against its own different practices of faith for almost the entirety of its religion does not speak highly of it.
However I will have to admit that they did so because they had the power to.

>> No.5888167

>>5888145
You didn't argue it very well. Your faiths were not perserved. Period. Reconstruction is a joke.
>b-b-ut other faiths
I'm not arguing for those, only for Christianity which I can trace to a source and determine which path I feel is best using proper scholarship and consistent records. You're just trying to dig up a dead man to see if he can talk.

>> No.5888174

>>5888151
>>5888167
Christ: 1
Heathens: 0

>> No.5888182

>>5888151
>an excuse

no i literally said "it's not the point"

anyway the rest of your post is pure damage control and doesn't even acknowledge that i even explained to you the point of christianity (which i had to explain because i said that following christ's instruction/'example' was not the point) just some shit tier elaborate "no u"

>because you acknowledge that violence is often unnecessary, even when the devil hides behind the cross

lmfao what?

>> No.5888188

>>5888122
Do you deny that Judeo-Christian practice of religion even in the dark ages was different from the practices of a millenia earlier?
Because it was wholly different, and considering the scourge of the based legions that was laid upon Judea for nearly two centuries we may not have anything left of Judaism but reconstructed tellings of a religion which changed throughout antiquity.

Now don't even get me started on the changes of Christianity. How many times did they have to create a new denomination? How many ways did the Catholic Church change itself from the days of the Nicean Creed? Is it even safe to say anyone outside of maybe the Coptics has some original Christianity left in them?

>> No.5888189

>>5888167
There is fully enough material to reconstruct Hellenismos, it's not a joke. A lot of traditions and schools are lost, but so are a ton of Christians traditions and schools, mostly due to persecution by other Christians.

Really, Christianity is a joke. You actually literally believe that a guy was born from a virgin and that he died and came back alive like a zombie out of a tomb. Hellenists have never had to take their myths literally, they never said their myths were the Word of God and Fact, myths were always written different ways and interpreted different or even dismissed. The way I see, Christianity is a very immature religion because it hinges on ridiculous miracles. Plenty of Hellenists have believed in ridiculous miracles, but Hellenismos never made belief in them the basis of the religion.

>> No.5888197

>>5888167
>invalidates records traced by proper institutions all throughout the world
>assumes that somehow the monks and scholors of an incredibly restrictive time period are somehow more legitimate.

My sides actually do hurt a little bit.

>> No.5888201
File: 67 KB, 948x1175, arguingwithidiots.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5888201

>>5888182
>called out ont aking an hour and a half to come up with a bad excuse for being stupid
>damage control
Also
> i even explained to you the point of christianity
No, you're still being a stupid faggot. There was never a point to go into all that and you're still pretty wrong. You're just too full of yourself to listen.
Stay. Mad.
>>5888189
A lot of traditions and schools are lost, but so are a ton of Christians traditions and schools
Not the same thing in the slightest. We still have everything the forefathers did.
>not a joke
It absolutely is.
>>5888188
>muh similarities because time and shit
No. You're trying to resurrect a zombie. And you're failing.
>>5888197
This is what pseudointellectual hipsters actually believe.

Contrarians are always so pathetically desperate to sound like they're doing anything but being assholes lol

>> No.5888208

>>5888201
Anyway, feel free to sperg out some more, everyone. You're just talking to yourselves, while pretending the words you put in my mouth are anything like the proverbial cock I've shoved down yours.

(stay mad)

>> No.5888211

>>5888201
>Not the same thing in the slightest. We still have everything the forefathers did.
We have the complete core our forefathers did, what we are mainly missing are the variances within the faith.

>> No.5888220

>>5888201
>>called out ont aking an hour and a half to come up with a bad excuse for being stupid

are you joking? you thought i was saying christians had to become christ because evidently you can't read very well. i can tell you what i literally said again but you'll avoid it

>There was never a point to go into all that and you're still pretty wrong.

i was correcting your misinterpretation of christianity

even then at one point you thought i was arguing AGAINST christianity lmfao

btw every time you say i'm mad or stupid or a faggot or whatever it just makes you look like you're losing control of the argument

but keep it up if you want

>> No.5888223

>>5888208
i flamed better than this when i was a 17-yr old on neopets

>> No.5889575

>>5888211
No, you don't. Itt's funny how desperate you are to make it seem like that, though.
>>5888220
>you cant't read
>correcting
Hey, either you're trying to correct someone on a point you both agree upon or you're profooundly misunderstanding the doctrine of Christ. Pick one, because every time you think you're schooling someone on something they failed rto mention, it's because the conversation wasn't about any of that. This isn't What is Christianityy General, this was a debate over what the RCC did incorrectly.
>you thought
Maybe if you were more clear in what you had to say and weren't trying to "correct" people about things they never inferred, nobody would have been thrown off ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
>losing control
So you're a buttmad control freak, makes sense.

Go ahead and waste your time moving goalposts and building strawmen, tho. It only highlights your desperation.

>> No.5889579

>>5888223
>you played neopets
>you spseent time flaming people on neopets
>you're still here whining about being wrong
Look at this faggot lol.

>> No.5889587

>>5888220
>>5888211
>>5888223
>sorryyoucantmakeoutwhatimsayingoverthecumbubblingupinmythroat