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/lit/ - Literature

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File: 54 KB, 465x309, noam-chomsky.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5868722 No.5868722 [Reply] [Original]

Every day we consciously act to murder innocent people

Do you agree?

>> No.5868728

>>5868722
No, I've never murdered a person, conscious or otherwise.

>> No.5868733

I thought it was just me

>> No.5868738

>>5868722
Singer, pls go.

>> No.5868740

>>5868722
The people I kill were not innocent.

*Sheathes Edge*

Can I get a expansion on this? I would really like to hear Chomsky's words in full.

>> No.5868748

As long as they're non-white I can live with that.

>> No.5868749

>>5868740
Not an exact quotation, somewhere in the second half of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV7UYj-4mTE

>> No.5868760

'Murder' might not be exactly the right word.
Neither might be 'innocent.'
I object to killing, but war is occasionally necessary and always inevitable. If they pose a direct and imminent threat to my nation-state and the only way to prevent them from destabilizing it is by firing bombs at them from flying death machines, I guess it's in my interest and that of my countrymen to kill them. I'm only OK with it if it's absolutely necessary, and I don't think the invasion of Iraq was in any sense ethical, just, or legal.

>> No.5868764

>>5868722
I think your confusing innocent with decadent.

>> No.5868768

>>5868764
I think you're confusing 'you're' with 'your'

>> No.5868769

>>5868768

>> No.5868772

>>5868768
I'm creating my own adaptation of English, its call Nu-huh English.

>> No.5868773

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC4FnfNKwUo

yup

>> No.5868784

>>5868749
That kid got BTFO

>> No.5868793

I'm glad, it's either them or me.

>> No.5868808

>>5868793
More like: it's either your comfort or their lives. Doesn't really seem like a fair trade.

>> No.5868813

>>5868808

My comfort IS my life.

So yes it is a fair trade.

>> No.5868818

>tfw going on the comments of ANY Chomsky video on YouTube and seeing right-wingers spamming it with blind hate
Internet conservatives need to get their shit together

>> No.5868844

>>5868748
we know your containment board is broken, but can't you go to (unnamed other place) or something?

>> No.5868866

>>5868844
>implying the vast majority of the American populace don't share the same sentiment, consciously or not

face it, you and your edgy 'humanist' views are a tiny minority

>> No.5868871

>>5868722

Yes, but I think most of us have made the decision that murder is better than war, which a global hierarchy is meant to prevent.

>> No.5868878

>>5868871
>but I think most of us have made the decision that murder is better than war

and how do you rationalise that?

>> No.5868884

>>5868878

all out war = lots and lots of death
systemic murder = less death

>> No.5868896

>>5868884
I don't think that's necessarily true. If we hold the global capitalist superstructure to account for every poverty induced death since its institution, then it would surely far surpass the casualty count of WW2 and WW1 combined.

>> No.5868899

if we're all doing that nobody is really too innocent in the first place

>> No.5868906

>>5868899
People who have no means to do anything other than keep themselves just about alive, i.e billions of people

>> No.5868913

>>5868906
it's not that hard to stay alive, they could probably do more than they're doing

>> No.5868915

>>5868913
yeah, someone should introduce those starving africans to bear grylls

>> No.5868925

>>5868722
how is is conscious? i'm thinking it is more unconscious but i am not well versed in the study of the mind and its workings. please explain further.

>> No.5868926

>>5868896

We're living in an age of nuclear arms. Also, all capitalist countries are not on the same side. If America doesn't do this dirt, China or Russia gladly will.

>> No.5868949

>>5868926
>If America doesn't do this dirt, China or Russia gladly will.

Not if there is a global Communist revolution, Anon!

>> No.5868956

>>5868896

Not at the same pace though, which is what the other poster is arguing. If we had WW1 or WW2 tier casualty rates every year we would quickly outpace the toll of "global capitalism" and the economic toll inflicted would kill still more, not less.

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to prove here.

>> No.5869008

>Moral universalism occupies the middle ground between absolute morality and moral relativism. The moral position advocated by Noam Chomsky, moral universalism posits that there exists some universal ethic by which actions may be considered objectively "good" or "bad", but does not necessarily accept monism. In contrast with absolute morality, moral universalist attitudes may be paired with value pluralism, which posits that individuals can have conflicting but equally correct values. Utilitarianism is an example of a philosophy built around the principle of moral universalism.
>... if we adopt the principle of universality : if an action is right (or wrong) for others, it is right (or wrong) for us. Those who do not rise to the minimal moral level of applying to themselves the standards they apply to others—more stringent ones, in fact—plainly cannot be taken seriously when they speak of appropriateness of response; or of right and wrong, good and evil.
>In fact, one of the, maybe the most, elementary of moral principles is that of universality, that is, If something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me. Any moral code that is even worth looking at has that at its core somehow.
Why is Chomsky a shit tier moral philosopher /lit/? Has he read Nietzsche?

>> No.5869144

I don't get why we have to choose between Chomsky or Foucault.

Why not both? Pynchon is right.

>> No.5869153

>>5869008
imagine if most philosophers adhered to some form of moral cognitivism.

>> No.5869154

i act consciously, and innocent people are murdered indirectly

such is the world

>> No.5869207

>we
wrong from the start

>> No.5869212

>>5869207
>not knowing the distinction between me-actions and we-actions
get a life

>> No.5869213

>>5868896
>If we hold the global capitalist superstructure to account for what it prevents from happening.

>> No.5869215

>>5868749
it's at 8:25 or so

>> No.5869228

Chomsky is a child of 13 years old in a body of a old man

prove me wrong

>> No.5869272

>>5869008
Currently reading the Genealogy of Morality and he's only been talking about the priestly class and their plot to change all values and create the "slave morality". So far I don't actually know anything about what Nietzsche thinks about the nature of moral values themselves. Could you elaborate a bit on what you implied in your last sentence?

>> No.5869278

>>5869008
None of that applies to virtue ethics.

Aristotle was the only philosophy Nietzsche couldn't wreck.

Nietzsche is a shit-tier moral philosopher.

>> No.5869774

>>5868866
I'm not white and I still hold these views. I understand that a lot of people do hold them, and that these people are not necessarily "bad" people. It doesn't take a /pol/tard to not care about black and brown life, that's just something colored people have to come to terms with. If a white person values black and brown life then that's great, but I hardly expect it of them and I don't hold it against them when they don't.

>> No.5869801

>>5868773
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

>> No.5869863

>>5869228
He's always been an old man. He suddenly stopped playing chess as a youth because he felt it was a waste of time.

>> No.5869876

>>5869801
Has anyone seriously suggested shipping everyone in poverty to the US/rich countries?

I don't see the point of this lecture

>> No.5869879

>>5868808
This is the type of mentality that will turn the entire world into a third world shithole.

>> No.5869885

>>5869879
It's not a mentality, it's just a truth

>> No.5870052

>>5869885
No, it's objectively wrong, destructive, and harmful, actually. A false premise.

>> No.5870059

Murder? No. More like manslaughter

>> No.5870088

>>5868722
There's no such thing as ethical consumption under late capitalism
Regardless yes people realize capitalism is shit and still participate anyway, that's called ideology

>> No.5870090

>>5870052
Troll? Moron?

>> No.5870107 [DELETED] 
File: 25 KB, 600x620, 1409277348309.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5870107

>>5868722
>innocence

>> No.5870120
File: 62 KB, 209x277, Might_is_right.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5870120

>>5868722
Those who perish deserve to perish!

The only innocence is that of the blade.

>> No.5870128

>>5870120
make up your mind

>> No.5870132

>>5870090
Talking to yourself?

The idiotic false premise lies in the comparison of our comfort vs. 'their' lives. They're not on the same plateau. Humanitarian mass immigration will destroy human civilization.

>> No.5870141

>>5870088
Just as there is no ethical consumption, there are no true innocents.

>> No.5870178

There's no reason why I should trade my comfort for the lives of some random chumps who I've never met and hopefully will never meet, they should just be happy the west didn't decide to enslave them all

prove me wrong

>> No.5870203

>>5870178
1. ebin
2. The point isn't that you are to change, the point is accepting you do it, which you have

>> No.5870207

>>5870128
There is no contradiction in my post, peasant.

>> No.5870209

>>5868722

We could throw a nuke and be done with them all. If anything they should thanks us for actually putting up with their shit for so long. We're the most powerful, in nature we should have claim to whatever we want. Society and ethics are unnatural, fuck you. I don't feel bad cause I stay at home masturbating while some third workd chimp is being blown the fuck up. If Muhammad Guttural-sound were born here, he'd be doing the same. I am myself and my circumstances. I have no reason to feel bad for being born privileged.

>> No.5870219

what is life's greatest illusion?

>> No.5870228

>>5870203
I'm not consciously acting to murder someone though, they're doing a fine job of dying on their own. You might as well whine at their ancestors for losing the game of civilization so hard, it's even more their "fault".

>> No.5870233

>>5870209
Your circumstances allow for you to do something about it mongoloid. No you don't have to feel bad about it, no one suggested you should

>> No.5870240

>>5870219
best guild

>> No.5870247

>>5870141
>there are no true innocents
No true innocents would imply that there's some way to act ethically rather than unethically I would think, which is false.

>> No.5870248

>>5870233
>Your circumstances allow for you to do something about it mongoloid.
No they don't.

>No you don't have to feel bad about it, no one suggested you should

>Every day we consciously act to murder innocent people
Are you saying this wasn't purposefuly phrased to guilt you?

>> No.5870257

>>5870233
>no one suggested you should
How dishonest, or autistic.

>> No.5870275

>>5870257
>>5870248
I feel bad about it, I know just feeling bad about it is worthless, so no I don't think feeling bad about it is worthwhile.

I just asked to see if people agree and start a discussion

And if you are privileged, you can

>> No.5870292

>>5870247
so you're saying innocents as a concept don't exist in order for there to be a lack of them?

>> No.5870295

>>5870275

>And if you are privileged, you can

Why do you assume material comfort is the only thing that constitutes one's circumstances?

>> No.5870304

>>5870295
Don't remember doing that

>> No.5870319

>>5870292
I'm saying that to say there are no innocents would imply that there is a choice to act ethically. For someone to be guilty it would be implied that it was a choice to act that way. Which is why those who commit wrong under a psychotic break or do to threat of violence are usually pardoned of their crime to a degree.

>> No.5870326

>>5870304

Good thing there are other people here to remind you

>> No.5870370
File: 134 KB, 778x1018, bachelor's degree in trashing from penn state.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5870370

From what I know of him, Chomsky is the leftist version of 'le redpill maymay'. In other words, Jews are replaced by greedy capitalists in their quests to subvert and destroy the noble ary-...uh, I mean socialists. Although I still consider myself vaguely left, I think a lot of their ideas are no longer relevant to postmodern society and late capitalism. Fools be acting like a communist revolution could still happen, when nobody is that much of a 'wage slave' aside from in the least-developed countries (although, in my opinion, not through capitalism - it's more like a lack of technology because their economies have nothing to offer to gain this). I also suspect he panders to modern 'liberals' because they distrust authority when it doesn't espouse their viewpoints - ex. "All politicians and rich people are evil! Except for Obama and Steve Jobs, my heroes!"
>mfw I see lefties using the term 'anti-fascist' like it's still 1930s Spain

Unrelated, but is the plugin's captcha messed up for anyone else? It hasn't been working on any of my computers ever since /pol/ went nocaptcha, I have to post the old-fashioned way.

>> No.5870392

>>5870370
>From what I know of him

Clearly not much

>> No.5870395

>>5870370
>the level of pure ideology in this post
I think I might vomit

>> No.5870411

>>5870395
Zizek>Chomsky
>>5870392
I have at least five of his books in my room right now, m8

>> No.5870427

>>5870411
You could have every book ever written in your room and still not have a clue

>> No.5870434

>>5870411
>Zizek>Chomsky
That's obvious
But it's also obvious you've never read Zizek or you wouldn't be making posts so full of bullshit as yours

>> No.5870438

>>5870427
Why, because 'the system' has me in its vice with MSNBC and fluoridated water?

>> No.5870445

>>5870438
Yeh, spot on

>> No.5870447
File: 47 KB, 464x528, eternal retipping.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5870447

>>5870434
I enjoy Zizek for his postmodernism, but I can't believe in any seriousness that communism or socialism will ever happen in my lifetime.

>> No.5870472

>>5870447
Why not? There aren't many alternatives with large scale automatisation.

>> No.5870505

>>5870447
Actually given enough time and a steady state of technological innovation to ensure that resources aren't depleted or that we gain access to more resources as needed, socialism is most likely inevitable. As long as the time and technological innovation happen within your lifetime (as well as the perhaps more necessary fundamental social and structural changes, though social being the more important) then boom you've got a world which could ONLY function in a socialist system.

>> No.5870514

>>5868749
Are there any Chomsky fans out there who have the full lecture audio?

>> No.5870518

>>5870472
>>5870505
>people with this little sense exist

>> No.5870530

>>5870518
please explain

>> No.5870544

>>5870518
elaborate.

>> No.5870565

>>5869876
Is that dude a scarecrow because he is full of straw

>> No.5870578

>>5868722
Yes, by God's definition of murder, most certainly.

>> No.5870579

hey calm down with that social holism Choms! i never killed anyone either, it's not because the gov's forcing others to do it that i support this.
also, i didn't vote for it.

>> No.5870607

Wow man, Chomsky is so deep. It's like I'm back in high school history class.

>> No.5870616

>>5870447
>I enjoy Zizek for his postmodernism,
What the fuck does this even mean? Aside from the fact that Zizek is an ardent critic of post-modernism you fucking retarded dolt

>> No.5870991

>Chomsky is hated
>Zizek is beloved
The left is dead.

>> No.5871786

>>5868896
bad idea! bad! no kill human!

>> No.5871892

>>5868722
i dont know how conscious it is?

>> No.5871894

>>5868749
On the one hand he's saying those individuals being killed, I assume targeted, are just victims of their situation. Either this means 'we' are grossly incompetent and were targeting the wrong people entirely (possible, not enough context though), which may be true but certainly not always true, or he is maintaining the innocence of these targets because they were forced, by circumstance, into aiding. Obviously the latter would be a contradiction.

>> No.5872517

>>5871894
'Innocent afghans who have nothing to do with it' pretty obvious

>> No.5872535
File: 305 KB, 1600x645, chomsky.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5872535

>>5870991
First, that's fuggen wrong, Chomsky has far more fans than Zizek, who has far more detractors. Second, see pic.

>> No.5872548

>>5868722
>Every day we unconsciously act to murder innocent people
ftfy