/lit/ - Literature

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Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:10:13 2014 No.5856108 [Reply] [Original]

I found this on /pol/ and I thought I'd ask what you thought of it. I mean, I can see why you'd think Christianity might be inimical to scientific progress, but that had little to do with the dark ages. And I mean, seriously, most of our industrial progress happened under primarily Christian nations.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:11:46 2014 No.5856112 It's bullshit. Even Cracked have debunked it. Next thread please.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:13:42 2014 No.5856121 IIRC, christian monasteries were one of the only sources of knowledge during the dark ages. Not sure though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:14:06 2014 No.5856127 This pic is complete bullshit.. the "Roman period" was actually really conservative and few relevant advancements were made. and considering that during the middle ages any discovery was made it's just stupid

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:26:23 2014 No.5856158 >>5856127 >the "Roman period" was actually really conservative and few relevant advancements were made. What the fuck am I reading?

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:32:39 2014 No.5856173
File: 2.96 MB, 300x360, 1417234175415.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5856108
while sound in theory as technology does have a J-curve growth, there is no measurement for "scientific theory," and failing to mark an axis with units renders any graph useless. That's just common sense.

The argument could also be made that any technology "lost" during the dark ages was preserved by Muslim scribes, or that the bubonic plague halted scientific progress more so than any Pope.

That said, its undeniable that Christianity did impede scientific advancement to some degree. Dissecting a cadaver for medical research was considered taboo by the church even during the Italian renaissance, and heliocentrism was opposed vehemently by the religious institutions.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:34:00 2014 No.5856178

>>5856158
>‘However, there was an artificer once who made a glass goblet that would not break. So he was admitted to the Emperor’s presence to offer him his invention; then, on receiving the cup back from the Emperor’s hands, he dashed it down on the floor. Who so startled as the Emperor? But the man quietly picked up the goblet again, which was dinted as a vessel of bronze might be. Then taking a little hammer from his pocket, he easily and neatly knocked the goblet into shape again. This done, the fellow thought he was as good as in heaven already, especially when Emperor said to him, ‘Does anybody else besides yourself understand the manufacture of this glass?’ But, on his replying in the negative, Emperor ordered him to be beheaded, because if once the secret became known, we should think no more of gold than of so much dirt.’

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:35:22 2014 No.5856180 File: 149 KB, 696x567, 1415720216384.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I'm quite sure if you found that image on /pol/ than you probably found this

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:35:24 2014 No.5856181

>>5856108
Copernicus, Galileo, Isaac newton, Decartes, Leibniz, Francis Bacon were all Christian scientists and cornerstones in the scientific revolution.

The only reason you should be on /pol/ is to see what the most ignorant racist 13 year olds are posting on the internet.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:35:45 2014 No.5856183 >>5856178 Are you using an example of a mad emperor as proof of your theory? They could be found in greek age and egyptian age or the dark ages or during the renaissance or what have you.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:36:09 2014 No.5856185

>>5856173
Fair enough, but you could also say that academia itself, or the method of mass communication, was only possible due to the development of Christianity in the first place, ergo mass education has its roots in Christianity, free mass education that is, of course there existed Roman scholars, but education during those times was not administered au gratis, if you will.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:36:18 2014 No.5856186 >>5856178 The fuck am I reading This nigga invent plastic?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:36:20 2014 No.5856187 Do people really believe scientific and technological progress was on every human civilization its agenda like a fucking bucketlist?

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:37:50 2014 No.5856191
File: 194 KB, 1251x585, Be Irish Monk.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The Christian monasteries provided us with many translations of works that probably would've been lost if they hadn't be around I.e Beowulf. Also the Christian dark age only had anything to do with a quarter of the Earth at most. Nice b8 m8.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:38:03 2014 No.5856192 File: 96 KB, 1327x581, Irish Monk.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >mfw

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:38:38 2014 No.5856193 >>5856178 This isn't... this isn't a justification. Look, I definitely appreciate you trying to support your claims, I definitely do, but finding out the secret of unbreakable glass has little to do with what we're talking about...

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:38:46 2014 No.5856194 >>5856191 >>5856192 St Patrick hivemind

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:39:04 2014 No.5856195 >>5856191 >>5856192 HIVE MIND

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:40:33 2014 No.5856200 >>5856191 What advancements did the other 3/4 of the world make during that time? History is Eurocentric because Europe is the uncontested seat of the major historical actors. Everything else just provides context to how Europe acted in the area.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:42:26 2014 No.5856203 >>5856194 >>5856195 HIVEMIND HIVEMIND

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:42:44 2014 No.5856205 >>5856200 Lets be honest, anon, all of the progress in the known world started with European Christianity. There's no getting around it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:43:06 2014 No.5856207 File: 96 KB, 544x484, THISISWHATMAOISTSACTUALLYBELIEVE.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Just think, if it wasn't for Khrushchev, we could have been having another cultural revolution by now.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:44:18 2014 No.5856209 >>5856207 How does one measure communism? The presence or absence of Bolshevik jews?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:46:09 2014 No.5856212 >>5856209 Lold very hard.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:46:56 2014 No.5856215 >>5856200 What I meant by that is that even though history is Eurocentric like you said, its not like the Christians stopped the rest of the world from scientific advancements. Hell, the Christians couldn't stop Luther, Galileo, or Capricornus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:48:07 2014 No.5856217 >>5856207 >"Full Communism" Wat, where?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:48:27 2014 No.5856218 >>5856173 Heliocentric shit was opposed because it couldn't be proven. >Einstein halted science because he thought quantum mechanics was unfounded This is you. Galileo couldn't prove his theory at the time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:48:39 2014 No.5856219 >>5856215 They had no intention of it. Western Christianity sought to understand God through his works and as such the church heavily supported philosophy and natural philosophy (science)

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:48:59 2014 No.5856220

>>5856191
Christian monasteries also totally fucked a lot of important texts by constantly revising them like they were George Lucas.

Back then "originals" were not as valuable as they're regarded now. The paper itself was regarded as being more valuable. Monks would take an ancient copy of some pagan Greek text and write about their visions of Purgatory all over it. Or they would take an old copy of the Bible, rewrite a new copy of it (with numerous revisions and errors because who the fuck cares about what the original copy of the Bible had to say?), and once they were done they would erase the older copy to reuse the paper.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:50:31 2014 No.5856223 >>5856220 * tips fedora *

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:50:36 2014 No.5856224 >>5856220 Yet the only reason we have many of these texts is because of those same monks. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:51:00 2014 No.5856225 File: 338 KB, 1238x830, school-of-athens2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5856185 >academia itself... was only possible due to Christianity

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:51:03 2014 No.5856226 >>5856219 True, which is why I'm saying OP's chart is just neckbeard trash. I just thought it'd be necessary to state some names of Christians that helped scientific/social advancement.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:51:50 2014 No.5856228 >>5856217 I concur, it seems like the level of communist thought that is conciliatory with Marxist thought is diminishing, not increasing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:52:52 2014 No.5856229 >>5856225 Education was not administered au gratis like how the Church taught ontology and metaphysics to the unwashed masses, if you will.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:53:31 2014 No.5856234 >>5856224 >food company replaces flour with sawdust >"Don't complain. You only have your sawdust burrito in the first place thanks to Stouffers."

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:54:14 2014 No.5856235 >>5856220 Would you rather not have these texts at all, or have ones translated by the church? Maybe you should learn ancient Greek, High English and Latin if you want unmolested texts so badly

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:54:39 2014 No.5856237 >>5856234 >this is what passes for a witty retort from fedoras I can't even begin to list the number of ways this fails to address the point I made.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:56:15 2014 No.5856242 >>5856228 Exactly. Like post USSR Russia, modern China, not to mention others like Vietnam and some south Amer countries.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:57:17 2014 No.5856245

>>5856229
I don't know how you think education worked back in the dark ages.

You either had to be of noble birth to get into a real university or if you joined a monastery they'd teach you to read and write and not much else. Monks weren't running around tutoring peasants who were forbidden by their feudal lords to learn.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:57:35 2014 No.5856246 >>5856234 >Farm is on fire, wheat fields burn >Stouffers employees gather all the flour they could >Some got confused and gathered sawdust >Your burritos exist as half-flour and half-sawdust concoctions, but at least you have the flour at all

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:58:08 2014 No.5856248 >>5856234 >That reductio ad absurdum.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:58:35 2014 No.5856252 >>5856217 academia

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 14:58:50 2014 No.5856253
File: 13 KB, 897x518, progress.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

There you go, a much more accurate graph.

tl;dr: it had fuck all to do with any religion/ideology and everything to do with information technology and the ability to distribute information

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:00:39 2014 No.5856255 >>5856108 >I found this on /pol/ never open a thread with this

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:01:37 2014 No.5856258 >>5856253 i can sleep well at night knowing that our society, aided by modern computation, has accumulated so many progress units

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:02:27 2014 No.5856263

>HISTORY IS THE HISTORY OF ADVANCEMENT
>TIME GOES FORWARD LIKE MANKIND
>GEEZ WE ARE LIVING IN BETTER TIMES SURE BECAUSE COMPUTER AND ATOM BOMB AND HOSPITAL AND DEMOCRACY AND WHAT'S APP
>SURELY IT ALL LED TO THIS
>IF IT DIDN'T POINT TO THE PLACE WE ARE NOW, IT WAS CLEARLY A MISTAKE
>IN 95 I HAD A FLOPPY DISK WITH 1.44 BYTE DOLLARS AND NOW I HAVE 1 TRILLION BYTE DOLLARS AND LAST YEAR I HAD 1 BILLION THAT MEANS WE ARE GOING FASTER AND THAT MEANS WE ARE DOING BETTER
>THE DARK AGES ARE TRULY DARK AND SILLY BECAUSE PEOPLE BELIEVED IN GOD BEFORE NIETZSCHE AND F MURRAY ABRAHAM WAS AN EVIL PRIEST IN NAME OF THE ROSE
>SCIENCE IS ALL THERE IS AND IT IS ONLY BECAUSE DAWKINS AND HARRYS AND NEIL GRASS TYSON WHO ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE GUYS
>LET ME DRAW A GRAPH HERE OF WHATEVER, I'LL JUST CALL IT SCIENTIFIC ADVANCEMENT OR SOMETHING

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:02:29 2014 No.5856264 >>5856245 It was certainly administered more freely than before. Also, you must admit the field of metaphysics benefitted greatly from Christian thought.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:03:53 2014 No.5856270 File: 311 KB, 388x514, hegel-large.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5856253 >he things progress is a line/exponential curve. Go home Hegel you're drunk.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:06:50 2014 No.5856275

>all these people defending Monks because they tried to save "important texts."
>never specifying what it is that they saved exactly
>because you never actually read any of these texts that they "saved" from "the vikings"

Try reading Flores Historiarum or Malleus Maleficarum, you retards. These are the actual documents that were written and preserved during the dark ages. Plato's Republic these were not.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:06:58 2014 No.5856276

>>5856108
No, because western civilisation was not just comprised of one culture at a time, and the damnation of the medieval times as the "dark ages" is generally an artificial thing created in the time of enlightenment to have something to bounce off of. Much of the really nasty stuff like witch hunting etc actually took place during the rennaissance.

Also, am I the only one who sees a Pepe in the colouring of the Greek and Roman ages? Is this the new daily dose?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:07:52 2014 No.5856278 >>5856253 >a much more accurate graph. >no units of measurement does anyone on /lit/ know what a graph is?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:09:34 2014 No.5856284 I can confirm that it is, in fact, a super dumb image >>5856275 Malleus Maleficarum was written in 1486, and printed (not scribed by monks) in 1487 learn history, you cock

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:15:49 2014 No.5856299

>>5856173
>Dissecting a cadaver for medical research was considered taboo by the church even during the Italian renaissance
uh, no.

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/04/debunking-a-myth/
>In the end, I wanted to make it clear there was no religious prohibition against dissection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissection#History
>Unlike pagan Rome, Christian Europe did not exercise a universal prohibition of the dissection and autopsy of the human body and such examinations were carried out regularly from at least the 13th century.[8][19][20]
>but no universal prohibition of dissection or autopsy was exercised during the Middle Ages. Rather, the era witnessed the revival of an interest in medical studies, and a renewal in human dissection and autopsy.[23]

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:19:06 2014 No.5856307 >>5856275 Tips fedora >>5856284 Rips fedora off anon's head and shits in it >MFW, Well done m8.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:19:37 2014 No.5856309 >implying we "advance" through history This is the crucial ideological mistake. That doesn't mean all else isn't wrong, but this takes the first prize.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:22:11 2014 No.5856317 How the fuck can "scientific advancement" possible be a linear quantity that you can graph on a curve?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:26:21 2014 No.5856328 >>5856317 the same way we create tier lists, anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 15:51:59 2014 No.5856420 File: 10 KB, 363x323, science.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] updated version

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 16:04:29 2014 No.5856461

I get that Christian monasteries preserved ancient texts, and that's great and all, but lets not forget that when the Romans fell, so did the dick's for street signs, and the dicks for fountains and countless other dick-image usages for every object.

I for one will never forgive Christianity for making the penis 'un-cool'.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 16:06:16 2014 No.5856467 >>5856461 Calm down faggot

>>	Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS Sat Dec 13 16:09:37 2014 No.5856482 File: 10 KB, 363x323, 1418497813066.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5856108 fixed

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 16:11:15 2014 No.5856487 >>5856467 Nothing faggoty about loving a good old dick sculpture

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 16:36:04 2014 No.5856603 >>5856482 this shitbird is back?

>>	Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS Sat Dec 13 16:41:46 2014 No.5856633 I'm here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 16:46:05 2014 No.5856653 >>5856482 >implying that the Chinese and Japanese didn't experience rapid growth after they westernised Gooks and Chinks: 0 European Aryans: 1

Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS Sat Dec 13 16:50:18 2014 No.5856672

but anon, modernity is literally 100% the cause of all of the problems in east-asia

communism in china
expansionist nationalism in japan

any true scholar can confirm that everything was going according to plan until dumbass americans came along and corrupted the enlightened ways of the asians

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:07:38 2014 No.5856720 >>5856108 How can you measure scientific advancement? How is that quantifiable?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:10:33 2014 No.5856737 progressivists

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:11:06 2014 No.5856743 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wGhcpMtqL4

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:12:10 2014 No.5856749 >>5856278 what would you use for the y axis, "knowledge points"? clearly the purpose of the graph is to differentiate between relative values

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:16:26 2014 No.5856772 >>5856672 >corrupted the enlightened ways of the asians >no science >no advanced mathematics >underdeveloped technology >fucking Confucianism muh noble primitives

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:17:39 2014 No.5856779 >>5856772 muh white supremacist

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:18:36 2014 No.5856782 >>5856720 patents, papers published, significant theories developed, etc

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:21:25 2014 No.5856801

>>5856782
There haven't been patents for most of history, and gigantic portions of the world were illiterate and yet they still developed technology. You can count things as having been developed if there's a record for them, but how do you weight those accomplishments? How do you measure knowledge against knowledge or invention against invention?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:23:05 2014 No.5856812 >>5856779 Poor baby posted stupid fucking opinions on /lit/ and got called out on it. You may as well be a white supremacist if you aren't, you're on the same level of idiocy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:25:25 2014 No.5856820 >>5856801 >m-m-muh huritage?

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:27:35 2014 No.5856831

>>5856782
I also get the feeling that you've bought into the scientific establishment a little too much. I'm pro-science and pro-peer review, etc., but these institutions have flaws that require commentary and correction from without. For instance, publication, especially in high profile journals, doesn't tend to favor failures to replicate and confirmations of a null hypothesis, even though both results are important.

And this puts aside the matter of differing standards for humanity's success. While one person might look at scientific achievement, another might look at quality of life indicators, which are just as hard to measure reliably over time. The whole concept of scientific progress is silly. It's scientific problem solving, or maybe scientific difference, but the "progress" part is debatable, even if there's a sense of linearity. The word "progress" is too flexible and loaded to be appropriate.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:32:42 2014 No.5856850

>>5856812
I wasn't participating in this thread, so there's nothing for me to get called out on. The post I responded to isn't anybody getting called out on anything. I would never make the mistake of thinking that someone doing autistic bean-counting in favor of the tired meme of western technological and intellectual superiority was anything but a bog standard white supremacist. However, your post doesn't even rise to the level of autistic bean-counting; you're just posting a few lines of green text.

>>	Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS Sat Dec 13 17:33:47 2014 No.5856856 >>5856772 >no science what is the ijing

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:36:52 2014 No.5856871 History is not a game of Civilization.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:37:49 2014 No.5856877 >>5856220 So much bullshit in this post

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:39:34 2014 No.5856886 >>5856850 Did you respond to the wrong post or are you so mad you're incoherent, D&E?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:42:01 2014 No.5856901 >>5856672 M8 the chinese still shit in public today, i dont think we hindered them

>>	Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS Sat Dec 13 17:48:11 2014 No.5856944 >acting as though it's not okay to get mad on the internet there's that meme again

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:56:09 2014 No.5856994 >>5856886 I'm not a trip. I responded to a post in a conversation I wasn't a part of. Did you know that happens on message boards?

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:56:28 2014 No.5856995

>>5856193
The Greeks made advancements in science and technology. The Romans conquered then and became like them, but didn't advance their achievements. Cicero is as close to a philosopher as Rome had, and he was mainly a lawyer/orator who didn't really write any philosophical texts of his own, minus a dialogue or two that have been lost to time. He studied the Greeks, but he was no Socrates.
The Romans were far more interested in conquering and subduing than in thinking. Ask any decent source.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:58:44 2014 No.5857015 >>5856995 >Dear source, >Tell me about the Romans again? What was that thing about that thing? Were they interested in "thinking"? or were they just interested in dope, fucking and dank memes? >Thank you kindly for any help you might offer, >Anon

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:59:03 2014 No.5857018 File: 39 KB, 300x190, 1393802371001.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] If you are using the term 'Dark Ages' in 2014 you should burn at the stake

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 17:59:50 2014 No.5857023 >>5856944 If you get angry on the internet, you are petulant. You could, if you wanted to, it would just hurt the Pathos of your argument.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:07:43 2014 No.5857065

>>5856200
History is Eurocentric (or rather, Eurasian-centric) because it provides a more or less unbroken literary record, including the Early Middle Ages. Only the East Asian tradition can really compare. The rest is for the most part oral history which can't stand the test of time.

>>	Deep&Edgy !!BfzNblz4cXS Sat Dec 13 18:12:11 2014 No.5857081 >>5857023 >If you get angry on the internet, you are petulant. Not in each and every case, it's just as likely you're angry at the stupid shit people are saying.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:12:59 2014 No.5857084

>>5857015
This is basic stuff you'd know if you bothered to read a book or knew how to use Google. I'm not going to spoonfeed you links to academic journals because you're either pretending to be unaware of this basic fact of history, or because you're actually dumb enough to not know the difference between the Romans and the Greeks.
Google it, fuckboy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:18:53 2014 No.5857104 >>5856200 >What advancements did the other 3/4 of the world make during that time? A plenty, they were all suited for their environments. See, the industrial revolution and what followed isn't that long of a time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:27:47 2014 No.5857142 >>5856871 This. I hate faggots who think building more monasteries for some reason makes more science. >mosque +2 science >mosque+imam=3 science >You entered the Golden Islamic Era!

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:27:48 2014 No.5857143

>>5857065
It's more than just the literary record. It's the undeniable fact that the European powers had such a huge impact on the world that virtually every country has revolved or reacted to them in some way. The pervasiveness of the European nations naturally prejudices them above all else because their actions propelled them to that status. Whether that's right/wrong moral/immoral is another discussion, but history is eurocentric precisely because the European nations are most notable. As I said before, any other historical fetish is incidental to explaining the background of what happened before the European power encountered that civilization.

>>5857104
>the Industrial Revolution is the only notable piece of European history
wow, sick implications bro.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:29:21 2014 No.5857148 File: 40 KB, 645x815, turk.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5857142 >Conquer Byzantine territories >Take Dhimmis >You entered the Golden Islamic Era! Why won't they reflect history?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:32:39 2014 No.5857159 >>5857148 lel

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:35:43 2014 No.5857164 >>5856200 >wow, sick implications bro. The implication was that technological progress is not linear and that the whole deal really is more complicated than what your favourite computer games might have made you believe.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:41:11 2014 No.5857184 >>5856108 It was probably Aristotle and his bullshit, if anything, that held mankind back for millennia as people feared to do anything that contradicted him. See butthurt Aristotle-fags that fought tooth and nail against heliocentrism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:43:26 2014 No.5857196 File: 20 KB, 600x700, ww.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Progress implies telos. Have you not heard the news?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:44:51 2014 No.5857199 >>5857164 It's not linear but if you're going to imply that the European powers only became notable following the IR, then you're a goddamn liar.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:45:30 2014 No.5857200 >>5856108 >SCIENCE LE MAGNUM OPUS OF HUMABITY xDDDDDDDD step it up atheists

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:53:43 2014 No.5857232 >>5856225 >Heraclitus feels

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:53:46 2014 No.5857233 >Cro-Magnon man exists for hunderds of thousands of years >nothing happens >suddenly civilization Explain this with your muh genes.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:53:54 2014 No.5857234

>>5857199
>but if you're going to imply that the European powers only became notable following the IR, then you're a goddamn liar.
It would be wise of you to keep your assumptions to yourself, and even wiser of you would be to acquire even a basic familiarity with non-European history. The fact that there has been a variety of influential, powerful and wealthy cultures around the world does not imply that you can't continue masturbating to crusader-fantasies and whatnot, it just means that eurocentrism in general is rather unjustified and uncalled for.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:54:34 2014 No.5857240 File: 53 KB, 640x480, WhatsDatNiggaDoinOnANag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5856108 >I found this on /pol/ and I thought I'd ask what you thought of it. >I found this on /pol/ >/pol/ There's your answer.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:56:17 2014 No.5857245 >>5856112 >>5856108 It's terrible history but christfags aren't innocent of destroying knowledge Library of Alexandria, anyone?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:57:06 2014 No.5857250 >>5857234 >no concrete examples of non european powers >just vague appeals and protestations of "please respect other cultures they're all equal" I'm not even a crusaderfag.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 18:57:39 2014 No.5857252 >>5856180 CIDF please go

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:02:23 2014 No.5857271 >>5857250 >no concrete examples of non european powers Not him but: Mongols have destroyed Baghdad Hispanics have destroyed America Chinese have destroyed Themselves

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:03:21 2014 No.5857277 >>5856263 Sam, is that you?

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:03:21 2014 No.5857278
File: 4 KB, 363x323, Math progress.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5856108
What held back science was the complete lack of a mathematical language adequate enough to describe relationships, change, and symmetry in the world. No Christian ever was burnt at the stake for putting 2 and 2 together and getting 4. Only when we stop writing mathematics out in horrifically long prose and used symbolic notation for variables and constants did mathematics suddenly explode with physics and engineering following shortly thereafter.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:11:20 2014 No.5857302

>>5857245
>Destroyed by Muhammadans asserting there is no true knowledge outside the Quran
>Blaming it on christfags

Learn some fucking history

>Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in AD 391. The temples of Alexandria were closed by Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria in AD 391. The historian Socrates of Constantinople describes that all pagan temples in Alexandria were destroyed, including the Serapeum. Since the Serapeum housed a part of the Great Library, some scholars believe that the remains of the Library of Alexandria were destroyed at this time. However, it is not known how many, if any, books were contained in it at the time of destruction, and contemporary scholars do not mention the library directly

>In AD 642, Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of Amr ibn al `Aas. Several later Arabic sources describe the library's destruction by the order of Caliph Omar. Bar-Hebraeus, writing in the 13th century, quotes Omar as saying to Yaḥyā al-Naḥwī: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them."

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:12:05 2014 No.5857306

>>5857250
... Oh, perhaps it is because such concrete examples weren't actually demanded. How about, say, the Swahili city states and the fucktonnes of African kingdoms? Or the American or the Indonesian civilizations?
Maddison's historical GDP estimates are interesting as well as far as productivity goes, and population figures doubly so. Or of course we can just presume that population just appears magically without effective ways to deal with the environment and sustain the amount of people - the thing that technology sort of is for.

>>5857245
>Library of Alexandria, anyone?
Are you trolling?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:12:18 2014 No.5857309 >>5857278 Analytic geometry: discovered by Descartes Accused of atheism by his peers Lol xD Christianity has no word in scientific advancement inherently, it needs to doctrines of Aquinas to do anything A man made Christian science happen, not god

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:15:00 2014 No.5857317 >>5857309 >Analytic geometry: discovered by Descartes Discovered by Fermat; Descartes' version was god awful.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:15:25 2014 No.5857321

>>5857143
europe was a cultural and economic backwater until the 1500s. Literally no one outside of europe cared about them because they were poor white monkeys that had inferior diets, manufactured goods, art, etc.

Eurocentrism in history is decidedly a modern invention

>but muh romans
>muh greeks!

had the same amount of influence on the mid-east and north africa that they had in europe, "claiming" them as european is just a way for retarded germanic savages to pretend they had any history before they sacked rome.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:15:43 2014 No.5857324

>>5857302
>Learn some fucking history

Jesus fucking Christ, you learn some history

>According to Socrates of Constantinople, Coptic Pope Theophilus destroyed the Serapeum in AD 391.

>Possible occasions for the partial or complete destruction of the Library of Alexandria include a fire set by Julius Caesar in 48 BC, an attack by Aurelian in the AD 270s, and the decree of Coptic Pope Theophilus in AD 391.

We don't know for sure, but it likely was the fault of Christian retards as much as Muslims

Stop whitewashing history and accept the evil of Christ, FAGGOT

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:16:44 2014 No.5857325 >>5857306 >Are you trolling? Are you ignorant? Yes, like all Christfags

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:17:02 2014 No.5857327

>>5857306
>How about, say, the Swahili city states and the fucktonnes of African kingdoms? Or the American or the Indonesian civilizations?
You mean the ones that neve independentlyr developed the scientific method, industrial economies, or the concept of human rights or the rule of law?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:18:23 2014 No.5857329 >>5857317 >implying Fermat didn't read Descartes

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:18:43 2014 No.5857331 >>5857324 >Christianity is evil and is responsible for everything! >Islam is good and can be excused from anything! Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi pls

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:18:44 2014 No.5857332 >>5856180 What is up with /pol/ disseminating information via jpgs? They're so meme-oriented. For all their talk about free speech, their relationship to science, history, and information is pretty Orwellian.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:21:28 2014 No.5857343 how do you quantify scientific advancement anyway?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:22:28 2014 No.5857350 >>5857331 >saying words literally different from the ones I said Christfags BTFO Keep knocking down that house of cards

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:24:12 2014 No.5857360

Fun fact: middle ages was actually not dark at all and it was one of the most bright and colorful times for art. Wall painting had an underglow that made them shine much more than the subsequent canvas painting. There was also a more varied pallette, seeking strong hues. Strong hues were also common fashion, even amongst peasants. Not to mention colored stained glasses at churches. Renaissance and the Enlightenment were much more grey than Medieval times, and even much more than Ancient times, when marble scuptures were painted in strong colors and all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:24:15 2014 No.5857361 >>5857343 Basically throw out everything religious, because it's completely unrelated to what smart people do Daily reminder that smart religious people do not validate religious idiocy

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:24:55 2014 No.5857364

>>5857302
Oh, that is odd. See, if people were to "learn some fucking history" they'd realise that the citations of the destruction of one of the various libraries of Alexandria at the hands of Muslims were actually about 500 years after the event, and that the account is more based on folklore about the Muslim conquests than anything else. Even more intriguing is of course the fact that the Library of Alexandria as it was classically known had ceased to exist some four hundred years before the founding of Islam.

Oh Wikipedia scholarship...

Caesar's fighting (there's some dubiousness here) and Aurelian capture of the city were the main reasons to why the Royal Library of Alexandria was finished off. The papyri would've not likely survived for long anyways.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:25:01 2014 No.5857365 >>5857327 yeah you move those goalposts son. good job

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:25:17 2014 No.5857366 >>5857360 >Middle Ages had pretty colors lol

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:25:52 2014 No.5857370

>>5857306
>the Swahili city states and the fucktonnes of African kingdoms
>the American or the Indonesian civilizations
Because we all know that the Empire of Mali and the Mayans had huge impact on modern day affairs. To the same extent that France's relations with the German states has painted our society. Except no, it hasn't. Those states were only minutely important in history as to what happened prior to European colonialism. The fact that you appealed to shitty slave traders and a civilization whose only noteworthy trait is that it put up a pretty interesting fight before being cowed by Conquistadores, shows just how devoid of impact non European history is. It is inherently the history of the losers as they all fell to the European powers.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:27:08 2014 No.5857373

>>5857084
I'm not the person you were having a conversation with; I'm just making fun of your phrase "ask any source." You don't ask sources, and sources don't all say the same things about their subjects. "Ask any source" is a lame non-rebuttal, and if you knew what a particular source says about a subject, you could at least name its author and write about all this with some specificity.

And although this discussion is too stupid for me to be having an opinion about (IS X BETTER THAN Y I MUST KNOW PLS), I don't think you know shit about fucking shit or that you read articles from academic journals unless your professor forces you to.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:27:35 2014 No.5857374 >>5857321 >Byzantine Empire >Height of prestige and power following the fall of Rome >Rise of France and the HRE >Normans >nothing of note >no culture Jealous non European detected.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:27:44 2014 No.5857377 >>5857370 >they may have been powerful but they weren't AS powerful so they don't count LOL KTHXBAI literally you

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:28:56 2014 No.5857382 >>5857143 I said FACT

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:29:31 2014 No.5857384

>>5857327
And now we're back at my initial post!
>>5857104
Funnily enough I originally intended to make it "enlightenment/industrial revolution" but decided against it because I expected that you'd have even the most basic comprehension of the subject we're discussing here.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:30:40 2014 No.5857388 >>5857240 Yeah, basically. Speaking of dat nigga on a nag, did you know there were thousands of black cowboys in America? And we still have a black cowboy association here in Oakland.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:31:43 2014 No.5857391 >>5857271 Uh, cool racist memes.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:32:21 2014 No.5857393

>>5857377
The slave traders were powerful because they were propped up by gold from first the Muslim peoples and later the Europeans (huh must be a coincidence). The American peoples are effectively a footnote in the history of the modern nations that stand where they are today as they were founded by the European powers (damn there they show up again!). The only time these civilizations have any meaningful mention in history is in relation to the other (predominantly European) powers.

>they may have been powerful but they weren't AS powerful so they don't count
It's not that they don't count, it's that they literally don't matter except in how they respond to the European powers. We can sit here all day jerking each other off over the empires of Songhai, Ghana, Aztecs, etc. But it won't change the fact that outside of when the European powers deigned to interact with them they were completely unremarkable (aside from the perverse fascination that derives from viewing a different culture).

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:34:01 2014 No.5857406 >>5857343 You don't. It's a stupid, quixotic project for white supremacists.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:35:55 2014 No.5857412 >>5857365 That poster isn't your son and doesn't appreciate being called "son," I'm sure. >>5857366 I kinda like this "defense" of the Middle Ages, though. It's cute.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:37:59 2014 No.5857421 >>5857370 Who cares about impact? Autistic bean-counters, that's who.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:38:40 2014 No.5857423 >>5857421 please be b8

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:39:06 2014 No.5857425

>>5857370
>had huge impact on modern day affairs.
Oh? Let us see what the discussion was about.

>What advancements did the other 3/4 of the world make during that time
Which of course ties in with >>5857104
which is further explained in >>5857306

>The fact that you appealed to shitty slave traders
Yes, we should forget the Romans, the Greeks, the Brits and so on when talking about serious European powers. Thank you for the clarification.
>and a civilization whose only noteworthy trait is that it put up a pretty interesting fight before being cowed by Conquistadores
... Which is not true at all actually. I'm not about to give you a lecture without you paying me though, so piss off.

>shows just how devoid of impact non European history is.
See the part about the industrial revolution.
And furthermore; Europe did not exist in a vacuum.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:39:50 2014 No.5857428 >>5857393 >What advancements did the other 3/4 of the world make during that time? >It's not that they don't count, it's that they literally don't matter except in how they respond to the European powers. ????

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:40:48 2014 No.5857436 >>5857393 >The only time these civilizations have any meaningful mention in history is in relation to the other (predominantly European) powers. hegel pls go. You've got no understanding of what history is and you shouldn't pretend so either. Piss off.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:40:48 2014 No.5857437 >>5857393 Can we please actually sit here all day jerking each other off? Do you have a kik? Can you dress in your SS costume and come step on my balls in your high heels while I heil Hitler?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:43:38 2014 No.5857451 File: 33 KB, 413x569, but that's heresy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5857437

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:43:59 2014 No.5857452

>>5857423
Not b8. What respectable historian or anthropologist is interested in their subject so they can win arguments about "white" European civilizations having more impact (as if this is even measurable and not highly subjective) and making more "progress" than other civilizations? What a boring activity. Do you line your action figures up by height, too?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:46:18 2014 No.5857462 >>5857391 >putting examples of non-EU great cultures >being accused of racism nice troll

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:48:40 2014 No.5857472

>>5857462
>Hispanics have destroyed America
>Chinese have destroyed Themselves
Maybe I'm not following your tit-for-tat conversation closely enough, but you posted "Hispanics have destroyed America" and "Chinese destroyed themselves." Did I miss the context that made these statements not racist? Were you paraphrasing someone else's comments? This stupid conversation is so confusing, but that's largely because 4chan is not designed for coherent conversations.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:52:08 2014 No.5857483

>>5857472
Too right, brother. Reddit has a much more seamless design that engenders itself to conversation. I personally feel that it's design is what allows for a much more intellectually stimulating discussion than any on 4chan. What is your favorite subreddit, my good sir?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:52:59 2014 No.5857486 >>5857245 Didn't Julius Caesar destroy that?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:56:25 2014 No.5857503 >>5857486 no he just rekt Egyptian economy

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:56:59 2014 No.5857504 >>5857483 I'm not your good sir and I'm not on reddit, but 4chan has abysmal design for conversation. You get used to it and even start to find your use become like a compulsion, but compulsion doesn't mean I like it.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:58:31 2014 No.5857514

>>5857503
>no
Plutarch disagrees
>when the enemy tried to cut off his (Julius Caesar’s) fleet, he was forced to repel the danger by using fire, and this spread from the dockyards and destroyed the great library.
(Plutarch, The Life of Julius Caesar, 49.6)

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:58:36 2014 No.5857516 >>5857472 I was saying that he can't judge of "do nothing" an erased culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_books_and_burying_of_scholars

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 19:59:58 2014 No.5857524 >>5857516 OK

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:02:24 2014 No.5857532 File: 13 KB, 250x250, I hope you guys don't do this.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5856264 >Also, you must admit the field of metaphysics benefitted greatly from Christian thought.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:18:00 2014 No.5857591

>>5856253
>fuck all to do with any religion/ideology

Correct, basically.

>everything to do with information technology and the ability to distribute information

Eh, kind of. But really it was the fall of the Western Roman Empire, that's all. A lot of know-how was lost for quite some time. True enough, if better IT (so to speak) had existed, it mightn't have been lost.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:21:15 2014 No.5857605 File: 49 KB, 512x384, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5857591 >the fall of the Western Roman Empire, that's all. A lot of know-how was lost for quite some time >mfw armchair historians believe this

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:22:59 2014 No.5857612 >>5857605 Well, feel free to dispute it by means other than greentext.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:25:25 2014 No.5857618 >>5857612 >>5857612 http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/medmyths.html

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:28:04 2014 No.5857623 >>5857618 None of that addresses what I said at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:36:15 2014 No.5857653 >>5857623 Yes it does. Learn to read.

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:37:02 2014 No.5857655

>>5857306
There's a widespread misconception that the library of Alexandria was burned down by a mob of angry Christians who supposedly also murdered Hypatia the 'scientist'. The primary source of this misconception is the 1980 television show "Cosmos". Sagan made up a bunch of shit about her and this event to make his "Science vs. Religion" narrative more compelling. This story is fictionalized further in the 2009 film Agora which pulls so much out of its own ass I can't even begin to start talking about all that's wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:38:15 2014 No.5857660 >>5857245 uh, i'm pretty sure that was the romans

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:43:45 2014 No.5857679 >>5856200 The Middle East had a Golden Age during the Dark Ages

Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:44:42 2014 No.5857683

>>5857653

No, it doesn't. It debunks a series of myths about the early mediaeval period, among which "A lot of know-how was lost for quite some time [after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire]" does not number. On account its not being a myth.

Maybe YOU should learn to read, hoss.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 20:48:30 2014 No.5857691 File: 22 KB, 599x439, Cioran.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5856270 >he believes in historical progress

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 21:08:14 2014 No.5857753 >>5857679 So did Europe.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 13 23:27:53 2014 No.5858296 >>5857332 2K character limit makes info dumps a bitch

Anonymous Sun Dec 14 02:12:06 2014 No.5858779
File: 660 KB, 2048x1314, archimedes-palimpsest-02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5856220
>Back then "originals" were not as valuable as they're regarded now.

Spoiler: paper rots and falls apart.

>Monks would take an ancient copy of some pagan Greek text and write about their visions of Purgatory all over it. and once they were done they would erase the older copy to reuse the paper.

You're probably referring to that one Archimedes Palimpsest that wouldn't even exist today if it wasn't for a 10th century Byzantine monk copying it from a decayed earlier copy. Also, how was someone to know whether those scribbles were one of a kind or just a partial copy of another common Greek work like Euclid's Elements and worthless?

>Or they would take an old copy of the Bible, rewrite a new copy of it (with numerous revisions and errors because who the fuck cares about what the original copy of the Bible had to say?)

Read up on textual criticism. The bible has been more or less well preserved for the past 1800-2400 years. Rewriting the bible has only really been a thing in the 19th-20th century with cults like the Mormons and JW.

Anonymous Sun Dec 14 02:29:19 2014 No.5858836

>>5858779
>The bible has been more or less well preserved for the past 1800-2400 years. Rewriting the bible has only really been a thing in the 19th-20th century with cults like the Mormons and JW.

Depends what you mean by 'a thing' and 'more or less'. Super common? Nah. Unheard of? Hell no.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 04:07:12 2014 No.5859038 >>5856121 "dark ages" my ass. 12th century renaissance was some good ass shit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 05:31:07 2014 No.5859138 >>5856108 >>implying 300 years of history weren't just invented http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 07:24:06 2014 No.5859306 >>5857245 This. Christians killing Hypatia, one of the greatest librarian made its decline invetiable. When the Muslims came to burn it was already a shadow of its former self. >mfw she advocated peaceful coexistence with Christians and pagans. Damn

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 09:02:33 2014 No.5859505 File: 151 KB, 436x600, lenin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5856207 i kekd

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 09:20:07 2014 No.5859535 >>5856187 this. is tech/scientific progress really the end-all be-all of existence?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 10:46:54 2014 No.5859775 >>5856220 >The shills that believe translations screwed with works to any important degree >autistsic

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 10:52:12 2014 No.5859791 >>5859306 >taking fictional romanticization as fact

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 11:49:32 2014 No.5859984 >>5856278 >implying one can quantify progress with unit measurements

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 11:55:34 2014 No.5860003 >>5859306 >>>/tv/ is the board if you want talk about your favorite movies

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 12:03:47 2014 No.5860022 >>5856108 >the y axis simply reads 'Scientific advancement' Why are people taking this seriously?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 12:25:12 2014 No.5860059 >>5860022 Yeah, it's basically an "artist's impression" of a graph.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 12:40:08 2014 No.5860112 >Only yurop le matters Agrarian-based civilizations in Europe, the Middle East, India, and China have been more or less equally productive for most of history. European exceptionalism did not begin before industrialization.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 13:13:00 2014 No.5860214 >>5857360 I liked this post. Thanks anon.

Anonymous Sun Dec 14 13:20:32 2014 No.5860238

>>5860003
>>5859791

It really did happen. I didn't even watch Agora.

Basically
>Cyril was the bishop of Alexanderia whose uncle was sent to convert the city
>Rekt some pagan temples and drove jews and pagans out of the city
>Constantly opposed by Roman governor who is also a christian
>Hypatia was the governor's friend and was a popular figure in the city
>Peter the Reader rekted her with a group of Christians
>Pagan intellectuals fled the city while the other convert
>Cyril becomes a saint for his efforts

Sure you can claim her murder was political in nature or that Cyril was not involved in this, but it didn't help that she was the most influential philosopher (neo-platoinst) and mathematician at that time, one of her disciples converted to Christianity and using neo platoinstm to create or expand on the concept of the Holy Trinity. In fact all of her works but only annotations and letter that showed her influence. And people afterwards demonize Hypatia while commending Cyril for killing her (though no real evidence is out there)

Anyway back to the main point. Yes the Library of Alexandria was already in decline during Hypatia's life, but her death essentially destroyed whatever hope was to restore to its former glory. If the citizens of Alexandria could murder its most important librarian out of religious fervor with no repercussions, what makes you think the city cares about its library and not in favor of churches(essentially become a important christian city on par with rome)?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 13:23:37 2014 No.5860244 Not only is it not true. It is also not debatable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 13:55:31 2014 No.5860350 >>5856225 It is ironic how you posted a painting that was only possible thanks to the sponsoring of the church.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:00:22 2014 No.5860372 >>5856258 When will we get to spend those to build more capital ships?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:03:09 2014 No.5860381 >>5860350 It's also ironic how you payed zero attention to who are actually on that painting and why

Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:17:23 2014 No.5860431

>>5860238
>influential philosopher

Utterly worthless to humanity

>mathematician

If she wasn't a women you never would have heard her name. All she did was publish commentaries on mathematical texts that really had little to no effect on the progress of mathematics.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:25:57 2014 No.5860478 >>5860431 >>>/pol/ Take your rampant misogyny elsewhere

Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:28:12 2014 No.5860488

>>5860431
>Utterly worthless to humanity

Not him, and not a believer in the myth of the Alexandrian Library, but I always marvel at the inflationary power of disagreement on the internet. I mean, you, at a minimum, must regard yourself as "utterly worthless to humanity" also, no? I say this of course on the assumption that you haven't *even* published commentaries on mathematical texts.

It just seems like it would be more reasonable to say: Not particularly noteworthy or whatever.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:28:19 2014 No.5860489 >>5860431 >All she did was publish commentaries on mathematical texts that really had little to no effect on the progress of mathematics Almost all of her works were wiped out, commentaries were all that is left

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:40:07 2014 No.5860554 >>5860478 It is a fact though >>5860488 This is 4chan, harsh words are to be expected.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 14 14:57:38 2014 No.5860652 >>5860554 >This is 4chan, harsh words are to be expected. And you are purely a function of your environment? I mean, let's not stress out here, it's not a big deal. Just seems counterproductive.

Anonymous Sun Dec 14 15:49:12 2014 No.5860907

>>5860238
>She was the most influential philosopher (neo-platoinst) and mathematician at that time.
How do you know? not one of her works has survived.

>And people afterwards demonize Hypatia while commending Cyril for killing her (though no real evidence is out there)
as you said there are no evidence of a direct implication of cyril in the thing ("christians" crazy fanatics have killed her)

>Cyril becomes a saint for his efforts
Yep, not for murders, but for his efforts during a turbulent period inside the church.

Her appeal lies in her sex. Because with christianity science/philosophy becomes a man's job.

Anonymous Sun Dec 14 16:46:34 2014 No.5861161

>>5860907
>How do you know? not one of her works has survived.

Like i said. Letters sent to her and annotations of her contribution still remain

>as you said there are no evidence of a direct implication of cyril in the thing ("christians" crazy fanatics have killed her)

True, but he definitely advocated such fanaticism. He was praised by his supporters for the death of Hypatia, meaning they did or wanted to think that he killed her. The most unbiased view on his role in her murder is that "Cyril was no party to this hideous deed, but it was the work of men whose passions he had originally called out. Had there been no [earlier such episodes], there would doubtless have been no murder of Hypatia."

Earlier such episodes is regarding Cyril's clash with the governor

>Yep, not for murders, but for his efforts during a turbulent period inside the church.
Oh yes, there was a turbulent period in Alexandria thanks to him

>Her appeal lies in her sex.
Not for me. She could have been a guy for I care. The appeal for me is the tragic nature of her death

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