[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 38 KB, 1108x1080, trinity.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5850956 No.5850956 [Reply] [Original]

Christfags and theologues, explain how trinitarianism is not polytheist.

/general theology thread

>> No.5850958

>>5850956
I can't, it is divine revelation.

>> No.5850962

>>5850958
Revealed to whom, in what way? Through scripture?

>> No.5850995

Christianity is not a religion and I can prove it.
All religion is about man reaching to god.
Christianity is about god reaching down to man, and punishing him for his very existence.
It is a cult created for power, and a mystery why it is not illegal.

>> No.5851001

>>5850995
>babby's first troll

>> No.5851021
File: 202 KB, 1381x874, Albert Camus - abjuring abstraction and extremism, he found a way to write about politicsthat was sober, lofty, and a little sad (photo - Cartier-Bresson).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5851021

>>5850956
Wow, I'm sure this thread will be full of great discussion

>> No.5851024

You should ask Jesus.

>> No.5851034

>>5850962
Yes, for the most part.

>> No.5851045

>>5850956
The same way Plato conceived of the perfect balanced human in the Republic. He split it into three parts representing different aspects of a city but all are aspects of a perfect eternal form.

>> No.5851309

>>5851045

But in that way, wouldn't one of the persons of the trinity have to lead the other three? I am pretty sure that there was some heresy reminiscent of what you typed.

I remember hearing that Arianism was influenced by Platonism. God the father was equated with the Good, ie the highest form, and Jesus (as) with a lower mediating form.

>> No.5851316

ENOUGH FUCKING RELIGION THREADS ALREADY

>> No.5851340

>explain how trinitarianism is not polytheist.
because the trinity isn't made up of separate gods

>> No.5851341

>>5850995
>>5851001
honestly i always wondered why i was automatically going to hell even though i in no way chose to exist in the first place

>> No.5851357

>>5851340
>because the trinity isn't made up of separate gods


>Three separate, distinct beings
>All divine
>Not polytheism

In my view, when you think of all the problems with the scripturally unsound trinity, Christians' fuzziness over what The Holy Spirit actually is, and the minefield that is explaining how The Son can be both man and God, it seems that Unitarianism is the only sensible way to do Christian theology.

>> No.5851371

>>5851340
How is Jesus not godlike to human beings?

>> No.5851378

>>5851371
i'm not sure what you're asking but jesus is the son and is god, both identical and distinct from the unity

>>5851357
>In my view,
not interested

>> No.5851384

>>5851378
>not interested

Go on then, explain how The Son is both divine and human, and not subordinate to the Father.

>> No.5851396

>>5851357
There are not three beings, there is one being and three persons

Tree = 1 being, 0 persons

Human = 1 being, 1 person

God = 1 being, three persons

>> No.5851414

>>5851378
But Jesus, in relation to humans, is omnipotent and omniscient.

Ergo, to humans, he is godlike. The holy trinity was viewed by the Muslim religion as unnecessarily adding gods to the one true god.

>> No.5851477
File: 103 KB, 682x600, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5851477

>>5851396

>> No.5851495

>>5851477
no one said it was supposed to make sense

>> No.5851498

>>5851396

So God is schizophrenic?

>> No.5851501

>>5851495
>believing stuff which is even by your own account nonsense

>> No.5851504

>>5851498
yee and reality is his hallucination we're as real as the people you see in your dreamzzz

>> No.5851507

>>5851501
>implying i personally believe it

>> No.5851508

>>5851504

I can usually fly in my dreams

>> No.5851513

>>5851508
through conscious will?

>> No.5851515

God is like water. Exists in various states, but is essentially one compound.

>> No.5851516

>>5851513

Sometimes

>> No.5851520

>>5851515

Why would he need to exist in various states?

>> No.5851525

>>5851516
try to make shit disappear (and appear)
also 'telekinesis'. shit's cray
>>5851520
he doesn't. guy gave a terrible example

>> No.5851531

>>5851525
>try to make shit disappear (and appear)

In my dreams? I'm usually too busy escaping when the world around me is melting

>> No.5851550

>>5851531
you ever have your sense of self/reality start drifting away until in your dream you realize what's happening and frantically reach for it and wake up?

i started going lucid once and floating to the top of a building from my childhood. i turned a corner and a monk was there meditating. i took position in front of him and he opened his eyes. fully lucid i asked him if it's true if all things are one. his eyes were buggy and full of exotic colors. buggy became huge. huge was going to swallow me whole. woke up not exactly calm.

>> No.5851563

>>5851515
Enjoy your Modalism, heretic

>> No.5851567

>>5851515
Shit-tier example. This implies he can only be in one state at one time when you have Jesus praying to God and God pulling strings and whatnot all throughout the NT.

>> No.5851572

>>5851567
Why would that happen if they were the same being?

>> No.5851580

>>5851572
they are. everything jesus/god did was literally for show.

>> No.5851588

>>5850956
>Hypostasis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostasis_(philosophy_and_religion)

>Aquinas, "Whether in God the essence is the same as the person?" and "Whether it must be said that the three persons are of one essence?"
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1039.htm

>Cyril of Alexandria, "That Christ is One"
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers
/cyril_christ_is_one_01_text.htm

Not a Christian but I don't see the point in not just letting them speak for themselves when they've written a wealth of information on the topic.

>> No.5851590

ITT: sophists and trolls

>> No.5851596

>>5851590
>sophists
no u

>> No.5851601

>>5851477
>hurr durr i'm too fucking stupid to try to understand it better post le ebin david mitchell maymay

>> No.5851627

>>5851588
Aquinas is a bro, and Cyril is most definitely not a bro. Both of them (Aquinas more so), are obviously really really intelligent, but I still can't help but feel that any defence of the trinity relies either on a skewed reading of scripture, or on some kind of 'mystery card'.
The fact is that by distinguishing 'person' from 'essence' or 'being', we start using the word in a sense completely removed from its regular usage, and introduce a logical inconsistency.
In everyday language one being = one person, not three, and it seems illogical to suggest that one being could contain three persons, which is where the mystery card comes in.
If there was more scriptural evidence for the trinity, this seemingly illogical step might seem more necessary, but as is it just seems like a fucking massive leap out of nowhere.

And I know I'm a faggot for getting into an argument on the internet

>> No.5851632

>>5850956
The Trinity is One God, manifested in the flesh as Jesus to save us, manifested in the Spirit to resurrect us. And the Father and Son are bound together by the Spirit; He is One God.

It's really a matter of perspective; God is not confused about His nature. He knows that He is One God.

However, He lives in unapproachable light. Had He remained there, none of us would know Him, and none of us would be saved. So according to His plan and His will, He manifested Himself as Son and Spirit in order to reconcile mankind with Himself, and in order to resurrect us.

>> No.5851636

>>5850962
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.'

John 17:11 and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we;

1 John 5:7 because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;

>> No.5851638

>>5851309
Yes. The Father leads the Trinity; He sent Jesus, and He sent the Holy Spirit.

God is relational, even within Himself.

>> No.5851647

>>5851341
I would be happy to inform you of that reason.

When Adam was created, God breathed into his nostrils and made him a living being, in the image of God. That Breath of Life is what we call the Holy Spirit.

When Adam sinned, as God cannot abide with sin, His Spirit left Adam, and Adam died, spiritually. He who has the Spirit, has life; he who has not the Spirit, has not life.

When the fallen Adam and Eve had children, those children were born in the image of Adam and Eve, not in the image of God. They were born spiritually dead, lacking the Holy Spirit of God.

That is the natural state of fallen mankind; born spiritually dead. As you and I were. And there is no place in heaven for the spiritually dead. And there is no other eternal destination than heaven or hell.

However, by becoming a christian, by being born again in the Spirit, that Spirit that Adam lost is introduced into your body, and He resurrects you and gives you eternal life (as opposed to eternal torment).

So, as it stands right now, you are going to hell for two reasons. One, you have reached the age of accountability, and two, you were born spiritually dead, and have done nothing to become spiritually alive.

As Jesus has already paid for all of your sins, personally, and has reconciled all of your sins in fulfilling the Law, all that remains is you allow Jesus to quicken you, by giving you His Spirit.

For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:9

>> No.5851649

>>5851384
Jesus is as much God as though He were not human, and as much human as though He were not God.

Jesus did not think being God in heaven was a thing to be grasped, but let it go, to humble Himself and become one of us, so that He might save us.

>> No.5851653

>>5851414
Yes. Jesus is God.

(Not godlike. Actually God. Actually the Creator.)

>> No.5851654

>>5851627
There's not any kind of "mystery card" being played in Aquinas' responses to the objections. He lays out pretty clearly why it is not illogical for the trinity to exist. It's not even illogical, he's just elaborating on the ideas of essence and form he's laid out. His language is obviously difficult, because Aquinas, being a scholastic, loved using extremely precise and exacting language, and was constantly defining himself. If you have any trouble with his language, any potentially troublesome or difficult words are highlighted and link to definitions.

>and it seems illogical to suggest that one being could contain three persons, which is where the mystery card comes in.
Aquinas even deals with this objection specifically in the page I linked. I mean, practically word for word, this is what he lists as the objection and discusses.

>And I know I'm a faggot for asking questions about a complicated topic.
Relax, there's nothing to worry about.

>> No.5851656

>>5851567
>What is a triple point.

>> No.5851668

Since OP seems to have dropped one of the uni-bombs and then pissed off, I'm just going to say it:

Any Christian who isn't a universalist is a closet Jew

>> No.5851674

>>5851668
I believe the technical term is "Crypto-Jew"

>> No.5851677

>>5851668
As in "all men are saved"?

This is obviously heresy, and violates many things Jesus said about the afterlife.

But since you have zero spiritual knowledge, I will tell you straight up that all christians are truly Jews, and that not all Jews are actually Jews, if they are only Jews in the flesh (being descendants of Abraham, and being circumcised).

>> No.5851725

the way i think of it is through dialectics

God the Father is Being, not a being, but Being itself, and God the Son is the Wisdom/Word, the kind of conscious element of Being, and the eternal synthesis between Being and Wisdom is Geist

as the dialectic relation in an eternal being is necessarily eternal, the synthesis is never complete, and the Geist is eternally generated and unites Being and Word into a single unitary God

>> No.5851729

>>5851725
>as the dialectical relation in an eternal being is necessarily eternal as well

fix'd

4.5 hours of sleep last night. finals week is fucking killing me

>> No.5851739
File: 41 KB, 297x396, 4484048+_06dfa7cf04be856100125f6ab3933bf3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5851739

>>5851601

>disagreeing that obvious contradictions aren't actually contradictions because someone said so is 'stupid'

>> No.5851741

>>5851725

Good thing dialectics is bullshit then

>> No.5851775

>>5851741
every Liberal and neck bearded fedora alike share that same foolish hope

>> No.5851787

>>5851357
>In my view, when you think of all the problems with the scripturally unsound trinity
lel, is this some poorly constructed troll or is /pol/ so full of ignorant protestants, nobody's checked your shit on that

Your idea of polytheism means there's like twenty seven different Athenas, and none of them hunt.

>> No.5851792

>>5851725
God revealed Himself as a being; a triune supernatural being. A person. His children call Him Father.

This notion of yours, that science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard knew God better than God knows God, will not stand up on its own. You have to prop it up with sheer annihilation of belief.

>> No.5851836

>>5851792
whoa - don't come at me with that horseshit, man. saying that God is Being doesn't mean that God isn't personal. if you imagine God as a being among a pantheon of beings, as the highest being, then you don't get that God is so radically different that it isn't appropriate to label him a being. you or i, as beings, are temporal. we have come into existence, our physical bodies decay and dissipate into the rest of the universe. it's appropriate to say that there is a God, but not to say that God exists, or that God is a being. no, God is eternal, he always Is, and as such, does not have an existence but a state of - you guessed it - Being itself

this reality that God has created, it all depends on him. reality is sustained by God, manifested by his eternal will, and as such, our being is dependent upon his Being.

>> No.5851841

>>5851836
God is eternal. He exist. He is. His name even gives you a clue. I Am.

He is a person, with emotions, and will, and desires.

He is not an impersonal force.

Can't believe you didn't bite the bait tho, nice job.

>> No.5851947

>>5851638
That sounds like heresy to me.

>> No.5851958

>>5851775

That must be why Marxism is so successful

Oh wait, it isn´t

>> No.5851961

>>5851841

Those are your assertions, not established facts

>> No.5851979

>>5850956
The holy trinity is just God samefagging

>> No.5851988

>>5851396
>Let me just define god for you and what he is supossed to be

>> No.5851998

>>5851841
>A god that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent can have feelings and be a person
You are kidding yourself.
Besides the obvious fact that every reason to believe in god lacks, it is also absurd to claim that such a god can possibly be as feeble as to have petty feelings regarding humans.

>> No.5852010

>>5851632
>However, He lives in unapproachable light.

Light is just radiation.

>> No.5852709

on the strength of the absurd

>> No.5852733

It's just how the same thing manifestates itself in the different registers of human perception. We have the Symbolic community of the Holy Spirit, the Imaginary reference of the Son (in a sense of an egoic identification) and the inscrutable Real of the Father.

>> No.5852737

>>5851632
>However, He lives in unapproachable light.

Christians confirmed for Kabbalah Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohr

>> No.5852741

>>5851515
God is a three fold superposition. if superposition happens in the real world, on quantum level, then why cannot God be so

>> No.5852747

>>5852741
>if superposition happens in the real world, on quantum level, then why cannot God be so

Because superpositioned particles exist and can be measured. God cannot.

>> No.5852756

>>5852747
You know what I mean. Concept of trinity is no different from superposition. Something it's fully multiple things, like photon and wave. People say concept of trinity makes no sense, yet there is real world similar quality

>> No.5852765

are you trying to understand it based on precedence in your physical realm? or on what you know? bad way of approaching it imo

there is only one god, so it is monotheism

>> No.5852767

>>5852756
>Concept of trinity is no different from superposition.

Yes it is. The concept of the trinity is bullshit metaphysics which was concocted in an era when no one knew a damn thing about reality and scientific research.

The superposition of quantum particles is a well-established and observable event which is demonstrable.

They are not even remotely related, not even the same ballpark.

>> No.5852776

>>5852767
>>>/sci/

>> No.5852789

>>5852767
You're being pedantic. I am saying that you have to attack the trinity on something other than "it can't have three full properties at once", since it's possible for such a thing to exist. Doesn't matter if they didn't know about photons.

>> No.5853080

>Hurr durr I am confused on how a concept describing the Christian God is logical to people
>Christian God is a being supposedly existing beyond human comprehension
>I don't get it so I am going to make fun of it hurr durr

Like, seriously. If you want to honestly approach a concept, approach it from within its context; like philosophy and logic for criticism 101 guise.
For the legitimate 5% who actually are struggling with this as a question of a personal faith, you're gonna either have to find a solution within the greater context of theology and religious study, or you're going to find it irreconcilable to your understanding of things.
For the 95% other who either are academically critiquing the viewpoints or are just trying to be smartasses wanting to undermine the faiths of another for whatever reason you have concocted: you are going to have to approach the problem within the rules set by the context of Christian theology, meaning at the end of whatever rationalizations for or against accepting the Trinity, the ceiling exists of the Christian God being beyond human understanding, and if you are trying to attack the concept with outside criticism using other philosophies or scientific concepts, just look around and see how successful people have been at deconverting using simple, evidence-backed ideas like the theory of evolution.

tl;dr this discussion will always go nowhere, and there have not been any advances in either direction.

>> No.5853097

>>5852767
Dude. You are fucking retarded. Seriously man.

>> No.5853105

>>5853097
> can't use commas
> calls others retard

>> No.5853112

>>5853105
I mean, c'mon. That guy took the person LITERALLY when he compared the quantum superpositioning to the holy trinity.

It was obviously a comparative exercise.

The guy has Aspergers at least.

>> No.5853118

>>5851668
>Black-and-white fallacy.
Huehue.

>>5851677
>Spiritual knowledge is what the Church tells me is not heretical.
Huehuehuehuehue.

>> No.5853308

>>5851550
Stealing this for a scene in a book.

>> No.5853319

>>5851396
So God has multiple personality disorder.

>> No.5853322

>>5850956
Know of any good theology books you'd care to recommend?

>> No.5853329

>>5853322
A Guide for the Perplexed, by Moshe Maimonides

>> No.5853424

>>5851979
Underrated post.

>> No.5853440

>>5853319
no, multiple persons

>> No.5853450

>The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold")[1] defines God as three consubstantial persons,[2] expressions, or hypostases:[3] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit; "one God in three persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, while a "person" is who one is.[5][6][7]

>According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths,[8] there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and "each is God, whole and entire".[9] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows for

>> No.5853456

>>5851647
>I would be happy to inform you of that reason.
by 'wonder i'm automatically going to hell' i meant 'this is not fair why do i have to pay for the mistakes (or ehehe *sins*) of others'

if it truly is the case that all life, reality and the universe just exists so that i either go to heaven or hell i would rather have never been born

oh wait.....that's right......i didn't choose to exist...other people did.....but somehow i am to be held accountable for 'sin'

>> No.5853470

>>5853456
>but somehow i am to be held accountable for 'sin'

so? literally everyone is a sinner with the sole exception of jesus christ. the point isn't to absolve your sins so you don't go to hell - nothing can absolve you of your sins except for god, and that is through accepting jesus christ as your saviour so he can talk about how cool you are when he brings you over to introduce you to his father

btw that only happens after the consummation of the age. everyone is in hades until then (divided into good/bad parts - good meaning you sought jesus)

>> No.5853490

>>5851550
fuuuuuuuu i been thinking about doing something with it too, more the psychology than the actual experience tho
take that what you took from my experience and take it as far as you can m8
pls pls pls pls pls pls pls send me a copy
xxzxxz@gmx.us

>> No.5853500

>>5853308
yo this>>5853490
was meant for you>>5853308
>>5853308
xxzxxz@gmx.us

>> No.5853506

>>5853308
Ditto, so watch out, anon-io. I'm sure we'll meet some time in the future when we accuse each other of plagiarism.

Until then, anon! Just say "I was that dude on /lit/", and then we'll remember, and then it'll be pretty cool. Until then.

>> No.5853538

>>5853470
if someone committed a crime in your village and you knew that someone had to pay the price you'd try to capture them right? what if you knew they had a child on the way, or at least a very young one? in the past (heck even today) it was not uncommon for a criminal's family to be charged with a crime and take the criminal's place. would be comfortable knowing that by your own doing you're placing the child in a position to be alienated from society and even commit crime in the future? how you feel knowing you could have avoided and still can avoid future situations like this?

the best thing that could happen would be for everyone to die right now so that no one else goes to hell.
it's why i would never have children within a christian context. it would be better to not have kids at all to assure myself that i'm not contributing to sending people to hell
the existence of any children of mine will be absolutely MY responsibility(the mother's as well).

>> No.5853554

>>5853506
weird dream anon here. very interested in hearing the writings of any anons who use my dream experiences as source material.

VVVVVVV
xxzxxz@gmx.us

>> No.5853566

>>5853554
keep your eye out then

I can't guarantee anything, though, but here's to such a thing occurring sometime in the future

>> No.5853587

>>5853490
>>5853500
>>5853506
I'll probably be late to the race. The book isn't a current project, but a plan.

The idea is that Abrahamic entities have earthly avatars who are independent beings, yet bound to similar destinies. The Father is CEO of a mega-corporation, the angel of sacred prostitution is hiss mistress, and is mainly used to analyse his Narcissistic Personality. The Son is a theologian with a large amount of influence that he is using to run for office, along with a few secret deals with the Father. The Islamic Satan/Iblis is an Edward Snowden-like whistle-blower who worked for the Father, then tried to spread information about the secret deals before being imprisoned for slander or similar crimes, his significant other is Lilith who eventually abandons him and works as a Maverick for her own power independent of loyalties. The dream would work really well for the Son's character building.

>> No.5853666

>>5853554
Dude, may you please post more dream stories? You seem to have an interesting enough personality that you'd have plenty to share.

>> No.5854850

>>5850956
Because there isn't multiple Gods.
You don't know how to count?

>> No.5854943

G-d spoke, and in that speaking created light. The first act.
The same word then became flesh and dwelt among humanity as the son.
As the human form of G-d existed, the same corporeal form descended into Gehenna, Abraham's bosom and brought all who died before his existence into the light of heaven.
Then during Pentecost, the voice of G-d descended to humanity as a means to guide those who seek to do good to others.

Think of it as a timeline. Past, present, and future. All separate elements of how time is perceived, yet each segment is part of the whole.

>> No.5854955

>>5853538
>it would be better to not have kids at all to assure myself that i'm not contributing to sending people to hell

you're also making sure that god does not have more people to express him, which i can only assume is kind of worse, since there is always the opportunity to believe unto jesus if you're alive

>> No.5855015

There's always going to be some contradiction somewhere in religion. Christianity places it in the center.

Some take that to be a weakness, but Christians see this as their strength.

>> No.5855024

>>5855015
What contradiction?