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/lit/ - Literature

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5818401 No.5818401 [Reply] [Original]

I don't get this buffoon. He demonizes entertainment and hedonism, but suggests no alternative. He's not an egoist, nor a radical leftist and he doesn't believe in God. What reason for living can there be? Is this why he killed himself? He didn't notice over the course of writing Infinite Jest his thesis was incomplete?

>DON'T DO X, INSTEAD DO --

>> No.5818407

Well, not only can he not write, he can't even think.

>> No.5818414

>>5818407

Exactly, there's no discernible talent OP, that's why we call DFW a 'meme.'

>> No.5818418

no
discernible
talent

>> No.5818423

>>5818414
Precisely, DFW makes Stephen King look like Cervantes by comparison.

>> No.5818428

i hope he kills himself again

>> No.5818429

I don't think this makes him a baffoon, although I don't think he was any kind of genius, just a very unhappy person. Infinite Jest reads like a suicide note.

>> No.5818432

>>5818401
>implying you need to suggest an alternative in order to show something is bad

This is what a retard thinks.

>> No.5818442

>>5818429
He killed himself over a decade later.

>>5818432
No, but some things need to be put into perspective be properly criticized. He tells us TV and drugs are bad because they get in the way of our lives, but our lives are, at the end of the day, completely pointless.

>> No.5818448

He doesn't demonize entertainment or hedonism, he's just a temperance advocate who fears their extremes.

>> No.5818469

This speech is good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI

Atleast he could write speeches. I haven't read any of his books.

And his point towards the end is sound, I interpret it to mean that freedom is our ability to be switched on. This means that we are aware of what we are doing and we are willingly doing it. (Compared to, in his words, a rat race.)

>> No.5818480

>>5818401
he is the future. dont have an opinion, no backlash. just remain unpersuasive

>> No.5818497

>>5818442
>>TV
He doesn't give a shit about TV what book did you read

>> No.5818502

>>5818497
I read Infinite Jest and then listened to his speeches and interviews. He DOES give a shit about TV. The Internet too.

>> No.5818503

the gately chapters didn't provide your solutions?

>> No.5818505

>>5818469
That's a horrible speech. Stylish and edgy and jumbled and trite. Be nice and think about others? Boo-hoo.

Why is it so popular?

>> No.5818521

>>5818497
>He doesn't give a shit about TV

Mate, read E Unibus Pluram. He wrote a long-ass essay about television.

That being said, I agree with his analysis, and think it's funny that people are getting their panties in a fucking wad over it.

>> No.5818569

>>5818505
It may be trite and simple but there were some good points, and it may just define something simple but I had not heard it like that before; I had certainly thought about it but never put into words. I didn't find it too jumbled and it hooks you in if you are not set to hate it. Or I may not have enough experience with speeches, but I liked it.

A well formed argument for being nice is good to have once in a while, it's easy to find another view on life and see no reason to be nice.

And it doesn't seem very popular but I would understand why it would be popular. Simple, with flavor, and most people would agree with it. And it's only good, not amazing.

>> No.5818580

>>5818469
his assumptions were rather depressing if i remember correctly
>>5818521
he warned that television would become how we perceive, right?

>> No.5818724

>>5818401
I thought he was Christian for some reason.

>> No.5818774

>>5818724
I don't have it on hand, but I believe he mentions being a church goer in his 9/11 essay ("The View from Mrs. Thompsons", or something like that).

>> No.5818784

>>5818428
underrated

>> No.5818787

>>5818774
i heard that as well

I also think his writing is pretty in line with the ideas of the Self-Doubting Christian

>> No.5818845

>>5818401

In E Unibus Pluram he goes out of his way to say he wasn't demonizing Television, and has also gone on record saying he enjoys books by Stephen King and John Grisham. Also coming from E Unubus Pluram, wouldn't New Sincerity be his solution to problems in both literature and TV?

>> No.5818872

I also would like to know what dfw's philosophy was bc ppl do use him as an example of new sincerity

>> No.5818873
File: 116 KB, 640x553, 1415931799217.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5818873

>>5818401
> ITT: nobody read The Pale King
good job /lit/

>> No.5818876

>>5818873
Yeah, I didn't. Did you like it?

>> No.5818904

>>5818876
You could definitely tell it was unfinished, and overall it was a somewhat dull and mind numbing book to read (which was partly intended by DFW). Though, there were a few parts in it that had absolutely beautiful writing, and made it very much worth the read. There were a few memorable characters as well, although the nature of the story and the fact it was unfinished meant some of the best characters only appeared once or so.
Not the best, but worth read.

>> No.5818942

>>5818904
I read it last year. I thought it was great and very mind expanding. But then again I was only 18 and am very young.

>> No.5819015

the only options for a meaningful life are: hedonism, egoism, radical leftism. you are a retard my man.

>> No.5819024

also your thread discounts the whole idea of satire or simple straight-faced critique, which doesn't necessarily need to offer the solution... and your thread is itself a critique that doesnt offer a solution.

>> No.5819029
File: 23 KB, 300x211, Ford supports.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5819029

>>5819015
>High fives

>> No.5819043

He seems like he was rather leftist to me. Soulful, caring about others' souls. Not getting much more leftist than that.

>> No.5819075

>>5818401
his ideas about how to live, and maybe in 'this is water' do you find them most explicitly stated, is pretty much a restatement of age-old philosophical convictions going all the way back to the greeks. that's not diminish him, because i think those convictions are true and worthwhile, but that's pretty much where he stands. in infinite jest he warns against extrinsically motivated sources of meaning: the temptations of the body (mental oblivion in pleasure) and the temptations of society (that's the tennis kids: lamont chu, struggling with fame-hunger, etc.). Basically wallace sees the good life (which he outlines more explicitly in the pale king and this is water) as coming out of the ability to concentrate and be intrinsically motivated rather than being a slave to what the body and society wants. that's the worshipping he's talking about in 'this is water' (of course, a restatement of age-old stuff, and he anticipates anyone saying this, as he often does): the worshipping of your intellect, beauty, power. nonattachment. but anyway, you also have to understand that wallace was the sort of person who knew he didn't know how to live and didn't have the answers, so creating a whole Wallace good-life system was way more presumptuous than he would allow himself to be.

>> No.5819113

>>5818401
>but suggests no alternative
wrong
>doesn't believe in God
debatable
>what reason for living can there be?
hit puberty please

>> No.5819123

Semi-related (in that OP's pic relates)

I've been thinking of ordering a DFW novel, but I don't want to commit to Infinite Jest straight away. Is Broom of the System worth reading, or should I just wait until I have a clear reading schedule with spare time to commit to a thousand page tome?

>> No.5819129

>>5819123
I'd say read some of his non-fiction first, if you haven't already

Then Broom

>> No.5819134

>>5819123
i agree with the poster above me who says start with the non-fiction

there's also the DFW Reader that just came out, which is probably good because a lot of stuff from his novels work on their own.

>> No.5819154

>>5819129
>>5819134
Luckily I've already read a few of his essays, so I guess I'll ebay me some Broom. Thanks, lit.

>> No.5819162

>>5818942
>Now I'm 19 and I totally have it all figured out

>> No.5819164

>>5819162
he siad "am very young"

>> No.5819167

>>5819162
i meant that i was and still am very young physically/intellectually/emotionally

>> No.5819171

>>5819043
do rightwingers not care about this?

>> No.5819187

>>5819171
I know some right-wingers who are beautiful people, just a certain sort of hopeless or stunted. To make a sweeping generalisation, though, I'd say no; that caring for the other is a leftist thing.

>> No.5819196

>>5819187
I mean.... Ayn Rand.

>> No.5819205

>>5819187
>>5819196
It's like every time I see your trip I think "Surely, surely he will have something less idiotic to say then last time I saw him post" and every time I am surprised by my capacity to be wrong every time.

It's like I'm witnessing your slow, steady slide into severe, clinical mental retardation firsthand

>> No.5819208

>>5819205
And yet you never say anything contrary, just throw petty ad homs outside of discussion, basically crying at me.

>> No.5819218

I wonder if we're not looking at projection here, to be honest. I do tend to rattle people quite thoroughly.

>> No.5819227

ive read everything dfw put to paper or spoke, and although im not very political, i get the sense that either wallace had some right-wing in him or else was politically left-wing but had some incidental extrapolitical affinities with people who are right-wing. like being concerned with temperance and old-fashioned values may not translate into a right-wing political stance, but its reminiscent of the right wing, puts one in the mind of. i know during the bush years he was explicitly anti-bush, but during the 80s he thought reagan could fix the economy. also he was active in AA for nearly 20 years. so it's hard to put him in a box.

>> No.5819240

>>5819227
I watched one interview with him and it was very obvious that the very thought of politics just tore his heart to pieces. There's a certain impotence to go with being clever and caring when it comes to political activism. You just can't account for the full effect of what you're going to say will have.

>> No.5819244

>>5818401
Holy shit there is so much wrong with this post. I don't care if you hate DFW but at least be familiar with him before starting a thread to criticize him.

>He demonizes entertainment
Wrong. He criticizes certain unhealthy relationships with entertainment. He wasn't against entertainment itself.

>suggests no alternative.
Wrong. Read This is Water. He touches on possible alternatives in some of his fiction too, particularly The Pale King.

>He's not an egoist, nor a radical leftist and he doesn't believe in God.
Too much time on /lit/ has narrowed your mind if you think these are the only potential answers.
Also DFW was a Christian.

>What reason for living can there be?
Why is it an author's job to provide you with The Meaning of Life? Maybe you're a /phil/fag but in fiction that's not the point. Same goes for the kind of non-fiction DFW generally wrote.

>Is this why he killed himself? He didn't notice over the course of writing Infinite Jest his thesis was incomplete?
He killed himself because he had a rare and extremely severe form of depression that wasn't responsive to medications or even ECT. It's a medical condition not a character flaw.

>He didn't notice over the course of writing Infinite Jest his thesis was incomplete?
Again, I'm pretty sure the point of IJ was never to explain the meaning of life.

>>5819123
There's also his short fiction. Brief Interviews with Hideous Men might be a good introduction to DFW.

>> No.5819245

>>5819240
Nietzsche being dynamite etc. The world's a big fucking place to take on.

>> No.5819261

I think he committed that sort of suicide which was to deny his own selfishness, too. It seems very obvious from what I've read/heard of him. Can you get more leftist than that?

>> No.5819269

>>5819261
Also that story about the mother and her troublesome son, all those bottled up feelings, seems to speak of that impotence, too. Maybe I'm reading too much into that, though.

>> No.5819270
File: 179 KB, 500x358, 1410672685633.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5819270

>>5818505
wow you're incredibly mad at some dude who tried his best to figure out life- that's profoundly sad to me, anon ;-;

>> No.5819271

>>5819269
Actually I think I'm dead right there.

>> No.5819288

>>5818469
>This means that we are aware of what we are doing and we are willingly doing it.
>implicating this is not just pure ideology
My god, Slavoj would be most displeased

>> No.5819293

>>5819123
broom of the system is radically different from his other books
read brief interviews or some nonfiction first

>> No.5819296

>>5819218
You don't rattle anyone. You're just a fucking idiot. And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that you're a tripfag. That just helps people notice it faster

>> No.5819302

>>5818774
>>5818787
He claimed to attend a church group but that was just a euphemism for his AA group

>> No.5819315

>>5818401
He criticised excessive hedonism.

>> No.5819331

from everything ive read from and about him, he explored the god question but ultimately couldn't find faith. don gately on his knees not believing was him. but wallace was fascinated with religions in general, not just christianity. you can find a marked-up copy of huston smith's the world religions in his book collection at utexas. he dabbled in buddhism as well. there's a letter the d.t. max bio quotes where he's asking a reader (?) who wrote him for advice on buddhism. he owned some meditation books. he may have been into abstract philosophy in college, but ultimately he became more like his father (professor who taught/wrote about ethics) and was mostly concerned about how to live.

>> No.5819334

>>5818428

This is a truly brilliant post, I thought I'd just let you know. Have you considered a career in something related to comedy writing? Because this is truly one of the funniest things I've ever seen. I mean, I didn't laugh out loud, nor did I even smirk, but that's how some forms of understated humor ought to be. It seems as though you've basically summed up the entire pathos of all of 4chan in just six words. /lit/, this is your genius writer, right here. It may have just been a passing stroke of genius (though I hope and think it isn't), but here, at least in this moment we had a truly brilliant writer grace us. No, I am not being sarcastic. These six words are truly a gift to us - they express what 10,000 words could never pull off. Without a hint of sarcasm, I commend whoever wrote this. "I hope he kills himself again." Truly an anthem and a manifesto of 4chan - perhaps the DEFINITIVE form of both. I can scarcely think of anything that could ever top those eight syllables. God bless.

>> No.5819338

>>5819331
sorry there's some vague wording here: "asking a reader who wrote him for advice on buddhism," i mean wallace asked for the advice.

>> No.5819347

>>5819296
You'll grow up eventually, anon. Don't worry about it, dude.

>> No.5819628

>>5819334

I love when people write posts like this. You are absolutely correct. The amount of pure wit and lucidity of the man's post was extraordinary...no joke.

We need to let people know when their words are pure genius.

There are no prouder moments in my life (4chan life) than when I come up with something succinct and insightful, and I am also recognized for it. Someone once told me that no matter who I was in real life, because of what I posted that they loved me. That's as close to true love and respect for another human being, the kind not marred by physicality, where they pour their heart and soul into a few sentences and you accept them completely.

God bless you.

>> No.5819658

>>5819628
>>5819334

dying

>> No.5819689

>>5819187
please stop posting