/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5816033]

I want to learn more about fascism, what books should I be looking into?

Disclaimer: By fascism I don't mean National-Socialism.

[Anonymous No.5816056]

>>5816033
read Walter Benjamin's The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction. It's a great introduction to the concept of what I think is the most efficient weapon of fascist governments, the aestheticization of politics.

[Anonymous No.5816120]

I have a full list of Fascist Literature back home wich i cant touch now cause im at work but read 'My rise and fall' and 'My audiobiografie' of Benito mussolini. All the works of Sir Oswald Mosley and most inportant gentile his books like 'Origin and Doctrine of Fascism' These books are the base of the idealogy going on about the idealogy,economics and govermental set up of Fascism.

[Anonymous No.5816123]

Barack Obama's biography

[Anonymous No.5816134]

>>5816120
>Plato
>Hobbes
>Marx
Yeah, true fascists, all of them. Also, what's up with the blurriness, did you have to snap a pic of your books so quickly because otherwise they'd run away?

[Anonymous No.5816154]

>>5816134
Not everyone has an expensive phone anon gotta do with the cheap stuff wich im happy with.

[Anonymous No.5816161]

AIUTIAMOLI A CASA POUND

[Anonymous No.5816366]

>>5816120
Machiavelli ❤

[Anonymous No.5816388]

>>5816134
>Hobbes
>not a fascist

okay he wasn't strictly a 20th century fascist but his works can easily be used to argue for what is essentially a fascist state, in fact i'd go as far as to say the fascist and national-socialist states of the 20th century were the closest states ever to Thomas Hobbes leviathan

[Anonymous No.5816410]

>>5816134
not to mention fucking

>chesterton

[Anonymous No.5816422]

>>5816056
You're an idiot.

[Anonymous No.5816459]

>>5816388
You should probably read Behemoth then, and see what he relly thought of unleashed republican rule.

[Anonymous No.5816706]

>>5816410
>>5816134
>Not learning anything else then another idealogy or religion.

Anyhow OP im home.
Origins and Doctrine of Fascism - Giovanni Gentile
My Life - Sir Oswald Mosley
My Answer - Sir Oswald Mosley
Fascism for the Million - Sir Oswald Mosley
Mosley - Sir Oswald Mosley
The Alternative - Sir Oswald Mosley
Mussolini - N. Farrell
My Rise and Fall - Benito Mussolini
My Autobiography - Benito Mussolini
The Doctrine of Fascism - Benito Mussolini
The Theory of Mind as Pure ACT - Giovanni Gentile
Tomorrow We Live - Sir Oswald Mosley
The Greater Britain - Sir Oswald Mosley
This Time The World - George Lincoln Rockwell
For My Legionaries - Corneliu Codreanu
Mussolini's Intellectuals - A. James Gregor
Reflections On Violence - Georges Sorel
The Iron Heel - Jack London [Fiction]
Starship Troopers - Robert e heinlein [Fiction]

Ill add some other books that are a bit relevant.
The Crowd - Gustave Lebon
Men among the Ruins - Julius Evola
Why Johnny Can't Think - Robert W Whitaker
the Prince - Niccolo Machiavelli

[Anonymous No.5816739]

>>5816706
>The Iron Heel - Jack London
You do realize that this is a commie book, right?

[Anonymous No.5816747]

"Liberal Fascism" by Goldberg.

[Anonymous No.5816760]

>>5816033
Mussolini's Intellectuals : Fascist Social and Political Thought

[Anonymous No.5816764]

>>5816739
>written by the rumoured author of Might is Right

[Anonymous No.5816777]

>>5816033
But NS is a really important subset of fascism, how you gonna learn about fascism when you omit that?
Also, palingenetic ultranationalism definition is best definition.

[Anonymous No.5816817]

>>5816777
Because Mussolini was right.

>Race! It is a feeling, not a reality: ninety-five percent, at least, is a feeling. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today. ... National pride has no need of the delirium of race.

Also, because there's no need for racism in an ideology as militaristic and nationalistic as Fascism. If the black man works towards the benefit and well-being of his country, he shouldn't be treated differently than the white man he fought side by side with. It's a waste.

[Anonymous No.5816821]

>>5816033
Just out of curiosity; where are you from?

[Anonymous No.5816845]

>>5816817
Hell yea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXxkFd3lHaM

[Anonymous No.5816851]

What the next best edgy shit for teens?
Just wondering
Inb4 hellenism, anti-nataism

[Ehren No.5816855]

Ride the Tiger - Evola
Who is to be Master of the World? - Ludovici

[Anonymous No.5816874]

>>5816777
Please. NS is after fascism and a totaliatarian ideology, while fascism is just authoritarian. There's a reason why it's the nazis and the soviets who are called totalitarian brothers.

[Anonymous No.5816897]

>>5816777
National Socialism essentially is a hybrid of Fascism. It doesnt follow the foundation of Orthodox Fascism wish is syndicalist corporatism. The only Fascist organisations that stay true to the doctrine is Fascist Italy and the British Union of Fascists of Sir Oswald Mosley.

[Anonymous No.5816917]

>>5816851
Cuckshit

[Anonymous No.5816994]

Why don't you just ask on /pol/? Or do they only have jpgs and wiki-articles? Pretty sure that's the place that houses the most fascists on here

[Anonymous No.5817031]

>>5816994
Fascist here
Most actual political threads get forum slided by threads about Race,Feminism and shit like that. Actual Political threads died a vew months ago there.

[Anonymous No.5817039]

>>5817031
Is that why so many retards have come here lately, calling everyone and their cat a cuckold?

[Anonymous No.5817045]

>>5817031
explains the influx here then

[Anonymous No.5817048]

>>5816764
>he doesn't know might is right is satire
Also, have you even read the Iron Heel? Last time I checked, fascists weren't too enthusiastic about establishing an egalitarian global brotherhood of man.

[Anonymous No.5817059]

>studying fascism but refusing to study volkischness or the most succesful volkisch state in history
>giving a fuck about vague institutional vicissitudes like 'italian fascist syndicalism'
>giving a fuck about surface-level sectarian differences between national socialism and italian fascism
>literally not even getting why fascism is great

[Anonymous No.5817060]

>>5817031
>mfw I left that shithole a few months ago, getting tired of their bullshit
I'm not saying /pol/ needs actual sympathizers of zionism an marxism to stay interesting, but it sure seems that way. If they leave /pol/, /pol/ doesn't know what to do, and follows them wherever they go.

[Anonymous No.5817075]

>>5816033
On The Marble Cliffs by Junger

[B) No.5817082]

>>5817031
>A few months ago
More like during Zimzam last year. Have you seriously been going to that hellhole for the interim?

[Anonymous No.5817085]

>leftists claim fascism is capitalist to the bone
>social welfare state in Europe is the result of fascism

So what have you guys been doing actually but complaining and inventing fancy vocabularies in your ivory towers?

[Anonymous No.5817098]

>>5817059
>ignoring reams and libraries of completely valid criticism of the Third Reich becuz muh jewish revisionism JEWZ RULE THE WORLD
>reading and ignoring Evan's conclusions regarding what National Socialist science and culture were doing to the educational system in Germany
>not realizing that in accusing Jews of Racism, seeking hegemony, and conspiring to destroy the cultures of europe, the Nazis were merely mirroring their own accomplishments.
>not realizing that the only reason that the Third Reich was successful early on was its early adoption of a war economy on massive loans, which required large scale war and loot to prop up, just like the French State
>being a stereotypical pawn

If you want to go on about a successful facist state, consider spain under Franco. He only put his country behind by 30 years and killed some commies. "success"

[Anonymous No.5817104]

>>5817085
>leftists claim fascism is capitalist to the bone
Didn't they stop doing that 20 years ago?
>social welfare state in Europe is the result of fascism
That's a weird way of spelling Bismarck.

[Anonymous No.5817114]

Ive been reading Life and Fate by Grossman.

His criticisms of Facism are fantastic

[Anonymous No.5817132]

>>5816033
Julius Evola

There is no one else

[Anonymous No.5817133]

>>5817085
Fascism is a symptom of capitalism. Its the desire for one's culture to die a beautiful death

[Anonymous No.5817150]

>>5817098
>thinking anything in that post said the Third Reich or any state in history was immune from 'criticism'
>picking random criticisms of the Third Reich's policies, as could be done for any state, as if that damns its accomplishments
>fixating on the Jews for some weird reason when clearly Nazi anti-semitism was just opposition to soulless liberal finance capitalism, where Jews were heavily overrepresented

Franco a shit.

[Anonymous No.5817151]

>>5817133
Taking it too much at face value imo. The real fascist is aware of basically creating a community from scratch, using cultural artifacts and whatnot else to give it cohesion. A fascist believes in the power of mythology AS mythology, not as truth. It's just a means to an end, and that end is domination.

[Anonymous No.5817171]

>>5817150
>when clearly Nazi anti-semitism was just opposition to soulless liberal finance capitalism
Right, that's why they went to enormous lengths to catch the last jewish villagers on some greek islands while they were at the same time losing a war with the rest of the world. To oppose liberal capitalism.

[Anonymous No.5817172]

>>5817151
>the only political goal that might possibly motivate someone to promote a healthy people and state is the cynical desire to be a petty tyrant
>tfw leftists can't understand anything noble or greater than themselves

[Anonymous No.5817173]

>>5817150
Your /pol/ arguments are garbage, and the third reich was just a banana republic that happened to occur within a developed military-industrial power.

Anti-Semitism was a required component of Third Reich policy, as any fascist state requires an "other", whether its Heinlein's bugs, Mussolini's Communists, Franco's irreligious socialists, or Mugabe's Rhodesian whites. And just like the rest of them, it is a morally bankrupt policy.

[Anonymous No.5817176]

>>5817132
>guys that doesn't like fascism that much is a good start on fascism
Mussolini even used Evola for his own gains, against the Pope without Evola even knowing it.

[Anonymous No.5817199]

>>5817082
2 Good threads a day was still decent there!
At my opinion it went all to shit after the Boston Bombing.

[Anonymous No.5817200]

>>5817171
>implying Innocent III didn't sincerely seek the return of the holy places just because some crusaders raped captured Muslim women
>implying Heidegger wasn't still fundamentally right just because Goebbels was a cunt
>implying liberal democracies with many citizens of sincere democratic intent don't support a government that commits atrocities Israeli apartheid state
>implying history is a simplistic fairy tale

>>5817173
>I didn't read this post but I vaguely feel that he supports fascism so I will call his '/pol/ arguments' ipso facto incorrect and thereby win the Order of Lenin and forty shiksas in the afterlife
>implying the need for an "other" isn't inherent in human nature
>implying political divisions aren't inherently predicated on friend-foe divisions
>implying the conflict that results from this isn't the slaughterbench of Hegel's vision, pushing humanity and thereby the World Spirit forward

[Anonymous No.5817201]

>>5817172
It's not as petty as you're making it out to be. It's really a rebellion against capitalism when all other rebellion has failed, mobilizing any resource you can find, be it religion, nationalism, hatred of minorities and so on, to gain a semblance of control, to rip your fate out of the hands of the nameless, automatic process that has you in its grips.
I mean, it really is just ideology, and it really ends in the worst possible disaster, but the whish for souvereignty is anything but petty. Just delusional.

[Bucephalus No.5817210]

>>5816033

[Anonymous No.5817223]

>>5817200
>implying Innocent III didn't sincerely seek the return of the holy places just because some crusaders raped captured Muslim women
This has nothing to do with fascism.
>implying Heidegger wasn't still fundamentally right just because Goebbels was a cunt
Heidegger was wrong about everything.
>implying liberal democracies with many citizens of sincere democratic intent don't support a government that commits atrocities Israeli apartheid state
So, fascism is alright, but Israel is an atrocious apartheid state? I envy your level of hypocrisy.
>implying history is a simplistic fairy tale
Right, and nothing I said made it out to be such.

[Anonymous No.5817248]

>>5817059
>volkisch state
>giving a fuck about vague institutional vicissitudes like 'italian fascist syndicalism'
I'm Sorry but i like to keep my Poltical System realistic and not idealistic.

[Bucephalus No.5817249]

>>5816033

[Anonymous No.5817259]

>>5817223
>>This has nothing to do with fascism.
>literally can't understand the analogy of two movements with brutal followers and sincere ideals operating in unison
>actual retard

>>Heidegger was wrong about everything.
>actual retard

>>So, fascism is alright, but Israel is an atrocious apartheid state?
>implying history is a simplistic fairy tale
>implying Israel being a nearly ideal modern fascist state negates its crimes, as with the Nazis and their atrocities

>>Right, and nothing I said made it out to be such.
>implying you didn't

>>5817248
Enjoy your SocDems and massification.

>For matters stand like this: the diminution and levelling of European man hides our greatest danger, for the sight of him makes us tired. We don`t see anything today which wants to be greater. We suspect that things are constantly going down and down into something thinner, more good-natured, more prudent, more comfortable, more mediocre, more indifferent, more Chinese, more Christian - humanity, there is no doubt, is becoming constantly "better" . . . Europe`s fate lies right here. With our fear of mankind we also have lost our love for mankind, our reverence for mankind, our hopes for mankind, even our will to be mankind. A glimpse at man makes us tired - what is today`s nihilism, if it is not that? . . . We are weary of man.

[Anonymous No.5817275]

I would recommend Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism. Be sure that criticial theory perspective will open your eyes in many ways.

>>5816056
spot on

[Bucephalus No.5817282]

>>5816033

[Bucephalus No.5817313]

>>5816033

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817339]

Charter of Carnaro
The Philosophical Basis of Fascism
A Doctrine of Fascism
The Futurist Manifesto

The Theory of Mind as Pure Act

The first three are quite short and straightforward, the last is somewhat complex. Fascism is sort of the flip side to Marxism, it has the same concept of expanding the state until there is no distinction between the state and the people, but fascism is grounded in idealism instead of materialism. Like Marxism, fascist philosophy is concerned with actually changed the world rather than simply analyzing it. This is part of why fascism is blamed for being anti-intellectual, since Gentile labeled pure analysis without action as pure intellectualizing, and strongly opposed it as fluff, using anti-intellectual to describe the position of being against philosophy that couldn't be applied practically.

The main inspirations behind fascism are Hegel, Nietzsche and Marx. Fascism appropriated Marx's ideas on philosophy's use for change and applied them to idealism, but most of the rest comes from directly Hegel. Gentile flipped Hegel's dialectic around more than Marx did. Marx's dialectic is material-material, Hegel's is ideal-material, Gentile's is material-ideal. Gentile unlike Hegel is bold in his atheism, and doesn't think we construct our reality which is negated by the material....rather he thinks our reality is the material, but we carve it up and add meaning through through superimposed ideal.

So fascism is a sort of fusing of extreme rationalism and romanticism. On the hand, fascism explicitly denies things like nations exist except as ideas, but on the other hand it values ideas as what we need to give our life meaning, value and purpose. For Gentile, collectivism is what is required to give us purpose, but it can only ever be affirmed as a choice made through individual subjectivity, you must realize yourself as an individual functioning in a collective to achieve meaning, or else you lose consciousness as an individual, and with that you lose ability to find mean and degenerate into an automaton. There must be a constant individual-collective dialectic.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817341]

>>5816706
Jack London was a socialist. The only work he wrote which is somewhat sympathetic to fascist themes is Call of the Wild, and even that he wrote a rejoinder to in the form of White Fang.

[Anonymous No.5817356]

>>5817259
>>This has nothing to do with fascism.
>literally can't understand the analogy of two movements with brutal followers and sincere ideals operating in unison
>actual retard
Your analogy happens to be utter shit. Fascism doesn't just shift its meaning to 'violence of one group against another' for your convenience.
>>Heidegger was wrong about everything.
>actual retard
Yeah right. I totally expect people like you to be able to defend any of Heidegger's ideas, so come at me.
>>So, fascism is alright, but Israel is an atrocious apartheid state?
>implying history is a simplistic fairy tale
>implying Israel being a nearly ideal modern fascist state negates its crimes, as with the Nazis and their atrocities
Damn, that would be convenient, if you could make out the state of the survivors of a fascist genocide as fascist itself. But if you can't spot the inherent differences between fascism and zionism, you probably understand neither.

/pol/ may have gotten stale, but that doesn't mean you don't belong there.

[Anonymous No.5817365]

>>5817341
I Removed it from the list, only had it in cause they told on Iron march that its a decent book.
Anything you could recommend to expand the list btw?

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817379]

>>5816777
NS is not a subset if fascism, since it contradicts basic tenets of fascism, such as the distinction between fascism and conventional nationalism. Conventional nationalism holds that nations of people exist naturally, whereas a primary principle of fascism is that nations are just defined by a strong enough social belief in them. Fascism was also strong anti-racist until Mussolini worked to appease the Nazis.

Contrasted with this, Nazism is totally rooted in race and conventional nationalism. Also there is no sophisticated philosophical basis for Nazism, and there was never a great Nazi art movement, whereas fascism revels in philosophy and experimental art.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817415]

>>5817365
Rerum Novarum, for an economic fly by.

[Anonymous No.5817428]

>>5816874
>There's a reason why it's the nazis and the soviets who are called totalitarian brothers.
By shitty right-wing historians, yes.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817437]

>>5816874
I should correct this for you: fascism, if anything, is more totalitarian than authoritarian. It wants everyone to be a part of the state and the party, rather than a small party ordering things top down and everyone being blindly obedient.

[Paradise !!vh7XQhHe/pR No.5817472]

OYTIE the fascist, makes all the anons play nice by organising them, the patrician's pledge, the postmodern pledge, etc. Here's a person who lives by his bullshit lol. I'd actually be curious to know how you got this ridiculousness into your head, OYTIE :3

[Paradise !!vh7XQhHe/pR No.5817495]

>>5817472
I would imagine it's some branch off someone really powerful in your life, just going by other people I've seen who are incredibly anal about the rules of silly little things.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817503]

>>5817472
We are all ridiculous, don't condescend to call my bullshit an inferior grade to yours. Each one has certain things he values and adores, and wishes to proliferate these qualities. Do you mean to tell me I value stupid things and you value great things? There is far more bullshit to that than anything I have said.

[Anonymous No.5817508]

>>5817503

[Paradise !!vh7XQhHe/pR No.5817512]

>>5817503
True enough, we're all a shade of ridiculous. I do think I'm a small little bit less ridiculous and more intelligent though :3

So what's the deal? I'm just poking, you looked like you needed some attention lol.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817515]

>>5817508
This is actually the opposite of my value system. Which is to say I don't value the liberty and the pursuit of leisure

[Anonymous No.5817520]

>>5817515
I dont care about your value system man.

[Paradise !!vh7XQhHe/pR No.5817556]

Actually, sex as a means of connection/being valuable isn't uncommon, either. That your deal, OYTIE? That'd be very much boys who grew up without mothers, knowing sex more so than love.

[Paradise !!vh7XQhHe/pR No.5817565]

Go on, help me out. I'm trying to wrap my head around that omnisexual bit, it's kinda ridiculous dude.

[Anonymous No.5817617]

>>5816817
That's some nice hypocrisy there.

[Anonymous No.5817641]

Does anyone know ANYTHING about Malaparte's work (for Mussolini) before his incarceration for writing Technique Du Coup D'état?

He supposedly has written Fascist support and criticism, but nothing from what I gather translated.

[Anonymous No.5817777]

>>5817617
Elaborate.

[Anonymous No.5817791]

>>5817339
Somebady call da ghostbustas

[Anonymous No.5817797]

>>5817791
Nothing spooky in any of that. No essentialism, no normatives.

[Anonymous No.5817807]

>>5817210
Fascism: Comparison and Definition by Stanley G. Payne

[Anonymous No.5817808]

>>5817797
Yeah no. I see, there is a big spook deep inside of you

[Anonymous No.5817848]

>>5816033
You should check out Carl Schmitt's Concept of the Political, it might not be fascist precisely, but it's a good critique of liberalism.

Alexander Dugin too, though, Identitarianism, fourth political ideology. Inspirational, but I think he might actually be retarded, he sounds indistinguishable from the kids in the back of the bus who could think about nothing but airshit and cawadooty.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5817858]

>>5817807
I'd take this book about as seriously as I would one titled 'Liberalism", which had a Hammer and Sickle on the Bottom.

[Anonymous No.5817859]

>>5817048

Have you never seen pictures of fascists? Just because they are associated with ethno-nationalist tendencies does not mean they aren't egalitarian. The collectivist notion is egalitarian at its core.

[Anonymous No.5817883]

>>5817859

Sure thing, that's why they invariably have a Duce at the top. Fascism embraces hierarchy and particularism, the marxist notion of a universal brotherhood of man is anathema to it.

[Anonymous No.5817893]

[Anonymous No.5817904]

>>5817893
>all disagreeable things form a monolithic block called leftism
tell me, what does this book construe to be the common denominator of all these people?

[Anonymous No.5817934]

>>5817904
democracy, egalitarianism, collectivism, materialism, centralisation

or you could sum it up as simply democracy and that spawns everything else.

[Anonymous No.5817949]

>>5817934
So, basically modernity? Alright then, our entire civilization is 'leftist', apparently.

[Anonymous No.5817955]

>>5817949
yes, that's right.

[Anonymous No.5817976]

>>5817356
>>Your analogy happens to be utter shit. Fascism doesn't just shift its meaning to 'violence of one group against another' for your convenience.
>still not getting the concept of demonstrating 'sometimes idealistic movements do ugly things' in response to your dismissal of all idealism based on some ugly things

>>Yeah right.
>yeah, right

>>But if you can't spot the inherent differences between fascism and zionism, you probably understand neither.
>hasn't actually read any literature on israel's creation of a national sorelian myth, or comparisons of it to a certain lacedaemonian state with a militarised ethos as a result of its permanent status need to guard over a subject population, or outright assertions that israel's cultural outlook is essentially fascist, all of which are commonplace

Read some books, pleb. You and I both know you haven't.

[Anonymous No.5818031]

>Nothing is more relativistic than fascist mentality and activism [attività]. If universal relativism and action are equivalent, then we are fascist, we who have always boasted that we don’t give a damn about the nominalisms to which the bigots of the other parties always cling as bats on rafters; we, who had the courage to smash all the traditional political categories and to call ourselves from time to time: aristocrats and democrats, revolutionaries and reactionaries, proletarians and antiproletarians, pacifists and anti-pacifists—we are truly the relativist par excellence, and our movement calls upon the most current trends of the European spirit. (Mussolini, Opera omnia, 17: 267–69).

[Anonymous No.5818047]

>>5818031
Faggot should never have cozied to Hitler.

[Anonymous No.5818059]

>>5817976
Okay, wanna talk about the differences between zionism and fascism?
Because, I'm totally willing and ready to do that.
For starters, fascism is about power, and about creating a national community through mythology, with no aim other than the community itself. Compare this with Herzl, with the reasons he came up with his ideas in the first place. Now, I'm not saying that there are no Zionist who are also fascists, Kahanism in particular seems to have a lot in common the ideas of Franco and whoever that guy in Austria was, you know, before Hitler took over.

But at its root, Zionism isn't about creating this community as an end in itself, but as a means to an end, and that end is survival. Zionism may in fact require some positive way to define the jewish identity, but at its core, the community is defined by nothing more than the fact that it gets targeted by antisemites, something most of its members have no control over. This seems to make the original vision of zionism not only not fascist, but in fact incompatible with fascism, as fascism requires a community that is NOT constituted by objective facts, but by will. Which seems to apply to Palestinian nationalism btw, but that's a whole different story.

[Anonymous No.5818077]

>>5818059

>that end is survival

How can survival be an end? It's an ongoing process.

> the community is defined by nothing more than the fact that it gets targeted by antisemites

Didn't they recently put into law that Israel is a Jewish state, and recognise their own ethno-nationalism?

[Anonymous No.5818088]

>>5818077
>How can survival be an end? It's an ongoing process.
That's why the state must stay in existence, yeah.
>Didn't they recently put into law that Israel is a Jewish state, and recognise their own ethno-nationalism?
Obviously it has to be a jewish state, otherwise, how is it supposed to fulfill the purpose of jewish self-defense?

[Anonymous No.5818120]

>>5818059
I don't want to talk about your personal distinctions between Zionism.

>But at its root, Zionism isn't about creating this community as an end in itself, but as a means to an end, and that end is survival.

A) Zionism is not monolithic.

B) The simple fact that 'Zionists', which is now an outdated and much less useful term than formerly, have an ethos of 'survival' (as you call it) at any cost, binary opposition to a hostile external world, and a mentality of all-or-nothing success-or-death, all of which bears extreme similarities to Sorelianism - similarities which have been noted many times by historians and analysts of Zionism - makes Israel 'fascist' or 'semi-fascist' in at least one pluralist sense, another statement which has been made by many historians and analysts of Zionism. There have been Zionist fascist political parties. There have been authoritarian Zionists and racial segregationist or even supremacist or 'eliminiationist' Zionists. It is not valid in a scholarly sense to say ZIONISM = FASCISM but it is certainly permissible on a forum like /lit/ to colloquially regurgitate what is so commonplace an observation as to be virtually trite.

If you had read any literature on fascism you wouldn't be trying to define it in a handwave of a sentence. Someone already linked Payne's book in the thread which includes a lengthy introductory excursus on issues of definition. You might start with that.

>Zionism may in fact require some positive way to define the jewish identity, but at its core, the community is defined by nothing more than the fact that it gets targeted by antisemites, something most of its members have no control over.

So that's your stake in this, you're one of them. Go weep over a pile of Jew shoes at Auschwitz you faggot cultist. Then look around at all the children wailing and pouring dust on their heads and wait for them to drape themselves in Israeli flags, while the tour guides blatantly lie to them about gentile hostility to the poor Chosen People.

>Which seems to apply to Palestinian nationalism btw, but that's a whole different story.

The same observations have been made that Hamas or similar groups are Sorelian. Something like ISIS is a better candidate. Regardless, Israel is a modern Prussia the Nazis would have masturbated over just as vehemently.

[Anonymous No.5818130]

>>5818088
>Obviously it has to be a jewish state, otherwise, how is it supposed to fulfill the purpose of jewish self-defense?

See, I thought you said you DISAGREED with Heidegger's ideas..

[Anonymous No.5818179]

>>5818120
>A
I said exactly that, at least one time.
>B
This all-or-nothing view was in 1948 and pretty much up to today, not some weird ideological notion: it's pragmatism. They were, and are, literally threatened from all sides.
>you're a jew, cue antisemitic babble
I'm not jewish. My stake in it is just for the sake of truth, sorry to disappoint. You projecting piece of shit.
>Hamas
It's more than that, imo. The entire notion of a Palestinian people is both pretty recent, and inseperably connected to a narrative of national greatness, which is, for obvious reasons, endorsed throughout the arab world and large parts of the UN (think of UNRWA, an organization designed to keep a population in a permanent, inheritable refugee status).

[Anonymous No.5818187]

>>5818130
This has literally nothing to do with heideggerian notions of authenticity or Geschick or whatnot, but with the plain and pragmatic observation that non-jews shielding jews from persecution in times of extreme need are an exception, not the rule.

[Anonymous No.5818360]

>>5818179
>They were, and are, literally threatened from all sides.

The reality of an external threat doesn't somehow legitimate a military ethos. The Italian fascists likely DID save Italy from a further biennio rosso. Germany WAS threatened by 'Judeo-Bolshevism', i.e. clandestine revolutionaries harnessed by Soviet imperialism, and Soviet imperialism itself. Sorel's primary example of a myth-infused movement was the persecuted early Christians, whose persecution was real.

Fascism doesn't somehow mean 'taking a state without real threats or Others and then inventing some so that we can make everyone do the volksgemeinschaft :^)', it means 'that thing where everyone does the volksgemeinschaft'. That's it. Israel does the volksgemeinschaft.

I don't understand what you are even arguing with anymore. I have already told you several times that everything I am saying is commonplace in discussions of Israel. Google literally anything I said - 'israel new sparta', 'israel sorelian', 'israel fascist', etc. - and you'll see both scholarly and political books and journalism.

>>5818187
>A hard race with no thought of self must fight this battle, a race that lives from constant testing and that remains directed toward the goal to which it has committed itself.

>The German people has been summoned by the Führer to vote; the Führer, however, is asking nothing from the people; rather, he is giving the people the possibility of making, directly, the highest free decision of all: whether it - the entire people - wants its own existence (Dasein), or whether it does not want it. [...] On November 12, the German people as a whole will choose its future, and this future is bound to the Führer. [...] There are not separate foreign and domestic policies. There is only one will to the full existence (Dasein) of the State. The Führer has awakened this will in the entire people and has welded it into a single resolve.

>The Führer state . . . [is] the actualization of the people in the leader.

>The spiritual world of a people is not the superstructure of a culture any more than it is an armory filled with useful information and values; it is the power that most deeply preserves the people’s earth- and blood-bound strengths as the power that most deeply arouses and most profoundly shakes the people’s existence

[Anonymous No.5818538]

>>5818179
>>5818059
JIDF pls

[Anonymous No.5819381]

>>5817858
You can't always judge a book by the cover.

[Anonymous No.5819586]

>>5818360
Sorry, went to sleep. To say that germany was under actual threat by the KPD or any other leftist movement is a massive stretch of the imagination. I mean, just compare the amount of political violence along the left/right divide, and you'll find that if anything, the young republic was under constant attack by right wing forces.

And your claim that Israel is doing th Volksgemeinschaft, this is exactly the part I'm arguing against: unless any movement aiming at national self-determination isminherently völkisch, Israel is just your average democratic nation, very much like the one you're currently living in.
This is also why all that Heidegger babble is utterly pointless, as the Israelis have no Führer, but elected representatives.
Israel doesn't really remind me of fascist italy or tue third reich, but rather of pre-communist czechoslovakia, aka the least authoritarian state in interbellum east central europe.
Ben Gorion and Begin were only fascists to the same extent that Masaryk and Benes were. Which is, given their historical and geopolitical context, not at all.
>>5818538
Yeah, I just posted in this thread hoping that some dude would bring up Israel for no reason. Got lucky, really. Gotta feed my kids.

[Anonymous No.5819589]

>>5816459
>Behemoth

[Anonymous No.5819614]

>>5819589
Yeah, Behemoth. In which the author tells us what a piece of garbage Cromwell was, the archetype of a fascist ruler.