What are some good resources for someone interested in Hellenismos? I just took a look at it, and I'd like to know more. Also general spiritual discussions for Hellenists.

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Anonymous Sun Nov 30 19:38:36 2014 No.5799389 [Reply] [Original]

What are some good resources for someone interested in Hellenismos? I just took a look at it, and I'd like to know more.

Also general spiritual discussions for Hellenists.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 19:41:50 2014 No.5799412 you could try their website http://www.ysee.gr/index-eng.php there's also a forum http://www.hellenismos.us/

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 19:47:33 2014 No.5799455 >>5799412 Many thanks.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 20:09:14 2014 No.5799552 Delphic Maxims http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphic_maxims

Anonymous Sun Nov 30 20:11:26 2014 No.5799562

The Jews have their Sabbath, the Christians their Sunday Mass... so what's wrong with us, being also of Mediterranean flavoring and countless sources of information on making meals sacred that we don't have something for us that we can perform on a weekly basis?

This is a ritual you can do once a week, and involving anywhere from one to twenty billion people. Well, maybe not twenty billion, but you get the idea. I picked Friday nights to do this because Friday nights make sense, are convenient to me, and conclude a long, often stressful week at work. Your mileage may vary.

On the wall over my microwave I have a cast iron decorated hanging shelf with a wall sconce on each side. On the shelf I placed a replica of an ancient Greek oil burner. These are extremely useful for rituals like this, you can burn olive oil in them, and they make a great piece for such a shrine to Hestia--which is what I happen to be describing. :)

Before I begin cooking, I light the oil burner on the shrine to Hestia, and say a short prayer to her. It can be as simple as "I light this in honor to you, o Hestia, goddess of the hearth and home" or you can recite a more complicated prayer that you can make on your own, or borrow from an ancient hymn to her.

Then I take the time to cook a meal. I think that this alone is important--establishing the time for yourself and for your religion, something that we so rarely get to do. If you have a family or live with friends or a significant other, this is especially important.

Once the meal is done, I take some of the food and give it to Hestia as an offering. Hestia traditionally gets the first and last offering, and this makes the food you are eating sacred. You are partaking in a religious feast in honor of Hestia, and asking her to bless your home and your meal.

Then--you eat! As described in the Personal Practice section, you can libate some of your drink to the gods before you begin eating. In fact, I recommend this. Put a few drops on a napkin, dump some of it on the ground outside your home, down the drain, whatever. You're showing the gods your respect and honoring them with your thoughtfulness.

Before you finish eating, leave off some of your food on the plate for Hestia. This could be the dessert item, or part of the appetizer--doesn't matter. This is the last offering, and you give it to her next to the first.

And... you're done. Based on the rest of the site and your own personal research, you can make this as simple or as complicated as you want--and it's a wonderful ritual that you can do regardless of whether or not you live alone, who your patron deities are,

http://www.temenostheon.com/dinner_ritual.html

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 21:00:03 2014 No.5799805 Practicing Hellenist, would be happy to answer any questions you have, OP. Burkert's "Greek Religion" is one of the best texts available on the subject.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 21:04:38 2014 No.5799825 >Paganism >2014

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 21:08:14 2014 No.5799850 >>5799825 Paganism is a put-down and term employed by Wiccans and new age samplers, it's not a term in use by anyone who is serious about our faith.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Sun Nov 30 21:26:16 2014 No.5799922 File: 209 KB, 600x522, Persephone and Demeter (Greece, ~450 BC).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5799825 >Heeb >Heeb-goyim Tips foreskin

Anonymous Sun Nov 30 21:39:02 2014 No.5799992

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgzpHvX3d4Q

>The basic Hellenic principles include themis (sacred law) and moira (portion, fate), which establish the appropriate distinction between humankind and the Gods. It is on this basis that we reject occult or ‘magical’ beliefs and practices. We understand Dodekatheism to embrace a wholehearted dedication to the great and holy Gods of Hellas, and a willingness to live ones life in accordance with the principles of piety, tradition and honour.

>Such a worldview necessarily precludes any allegiance to such things as magic, occultism, 'neopaganism' (as related to Wicca and its offshoots), and Christianity. In the same spirit of the apologists and polemics of late antiquity, we view these things as variants of atheism: denial of the Gods. Any system of belief which either denies the existence of or assigns an inferior position to the Gods is incompatible with Dodekatheism.

>We live in an age of ‘Do-It-Yourself’ spirituality, in which the individual must glean not only their spiritual needs, but how best to meet them. If this did not offer enough challenges, spirituality has been covertly colonized by capitalism. Increasingly, people are trying to fill the religious void in their lives with seminars, workshops, books and trinkets.

>Dodekatheism is an ‘organised religion’ that promotes a fertile inner life, without the dogma and coercion that we have come to associate with religion. It also eschews the need for ‘self-creation through consumption’ that has come to characterize modern spirituality. Dodekatheism provides the ‘first principles’ for a stable spirituality, but it is the responsibility of each individual to build from there. Luckily, Elaion offers a spiritual community who can support you through that process.

http://www.elaion.org/

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 22:16:53 2014 No.5800199 Where the fuck are all the pagans coming from? Is this some new may may, or are we being raided?

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Sun Nov 30 22:38:42 2014 No.5800284 File: 72 KB, 360x640, 13807514365chon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5800199 Halt. What be ye? A soldier of Mars, a patron of Thor? Have you come for the Saturnalian festivities, traveler?

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 22:45:35 2014 No.5800311 >>5799805 Hey, thanks. are there moral, universal tenets of Hellenism?

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 22:51:48 2014 No.5800340 File: 80 KB, 446x576, Alexander the Great - Bust.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5800311 >moral, universal tenets of Hellenism? Fuck bitches and conquer Persia.

Anonymous Sun Nov 30 23:01:21 2014 No.5800389

>>5800311
Yes, there are a few. Never speak ill of anyone is one thing, especially behind someone's back. You can reprimand them and express anger, but don't insult anyone. Praise virtue where you see it, actively praising virtue is a virtue.

These are just a couple, and there weren't universally upheld, but they were ideal that we imperfect mortals strive for.

>>5800340
No. There have been conquerors in every religion, but having a lot of sex and conquering many lands is not upheld by Hellenismos to be especially morally commendable. Courage is, and that extends to war, but it is important in all aspects of life.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 23:22:52 2014 No.5800487 >>5800284 >makes fun of God in Christian threads >acts cozy and jovial in Pagan threads Butterfuck the fedora

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 30 23:52:54 2014 No.5800588 >>5800487 does that mean people who are cozy with christians but mock polytheism are fedoras?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 00:12:27 2014 No.5800678 Isn't Hellenism really an ethnic religion? Seems like someone who isn't Greek practicing it would be like someone who isn't Native American practicing a Native American religion.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 00:14:49 2014 No.5800689

>>5800678
Some prefer the label Dodekatheism when applied to non-Greeks who practice Hellenism. Among Greeks the feelings are mixed, but if you're a serious, dedicated practitioner, you get a lot more leeway than if you're a half-ass LARP'er doing it to be a special snowflake,

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 00:28:09 2014 No.5800743

>>5800678
Well considering that other cultures besides Greeks practiced it during Ancient Greece and that Greece turned to mainly Orthodoxy later on in more modern terms it's not really a cultural thing. Being greek myself practicing Greek Orthodoxy as a non Greek seems worse than practicing the older ways which in my life I've never met a single greek who practiced it. We mainly pretended to pray to use to play a joke on non Greeks.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Dec 1 00:56:26 2014 No.5800853 >>5800487 Ah. A Galilean. I see. What business here, n00b?

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 02:25:14 2014 No.5801090

>>5800389
adding to anon here, it's extremely important to worship in a cleanly state, you should worship right after bathing, really.

it's also a misconception that Hellenismos glorifies killing in battle. killing is always something impure in Hellenismos, and only to be done with absolutely demanded by practical circumstances. even soldiers returning from war had to be purified before worship for all the blood they shed, and killing was very rarely used as a form of punishment, even murderers were exiled rather than killed, because executing someone implicates the whole polis. this is why when Socrates chose death over exile, he had to do it by his own hand.

so to be clear, killing in battle and self defense are unavoidable, but killing itself is never something morally admirable. the courageous of facing death is, but the actual killing of a human being is always an impure act. of course history is replete with Greeks who disregarded this and shed blood needlessly, many of them weren't pious, many more just found some way to justify it to themselves, but there is no precedent for killing people as something holy or admirable.

as for conquest, back then it largely depended on what state you were a part of, they held you as a hero or a villain accordingly, but conquest is not worthy of religious praise, it does not elevate you in the eyes of the gods.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 03:10:55 2014 No.5801210 Thanks for all the info so far guys, really appreciate it!

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 03:19:49 2014 No.5801222 File: 1.01 MB, 1936x2592, IMG_7971.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5799389 heres a home alter. I took this in a museum not sure which as I have been to a lot.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 03:19:57 2014 No.5801223
File: 46 KB, 574x441, Achilles' Rage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5801090
>but conquest is not worthy of religious praise, it does not elevate you in the eyes of the gods.

Homer would like to have a word with you.

>>5800389
>but having a lot of sex

I was using the term "Fuck" to mean "Ignore"; Alexander the Great was not a big fan of sex.

And if you're going to be seriously about being a "Hellenist" Arete is an incredibly important concept to understand.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 03:21:01 2014 No.5801225 >2014 >being neo anything You can't start a new tradition, folks.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 03:39:50 2014 No.5801253

>>5801223
>Homer would like to have a word with you.
Homer was a poet, not a priest. He doesn't speak for the Hellenismos anymore than Milton speaks for Christianity, and you'll find plenty of people objecting to Homer's glorification of certain behavior, including Plato and Pindar. Neither of them were priests either, but I think you understand me.

>And if you're going to be seriously about being a "Hellenist" Arete is an incredibly important concept to understand.
Yes, but conquest isn't exactly part of it. Arete will aid in conquest, but the Greek conception of manliness isn't synonymous with the Mongolian conception.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 03:48:53 2014 No.5801269
File: 421 KB, 1392x1800, Alexander the Great - Rembrandt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5801253
>but the Greek conception of manliness isn't synonymous with the Mongolian conception.

No shit. I'm talking about Alexander the Great, who was incredibly pious, and big fan of Homer, not Genghis Khan.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 05:02:06 2014 No.5801386 >>5801269 But Alexander isn't necessarily a paragon of Greek religion because of his conquests. Conquest is not an expression of piety, even where it isn't immoral.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 06:15:26 2014 No.5801563

>>5801225
Hellenists are not interested in trying to sweep the world with their religion, they don't proselytize and never will. It's about personal practice and connection with the gods, not about mouthing off to everyone about having been saved by Dionysus.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 07:44:05 2014 No.5801735 bump

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 08:41:46 2014 No.5801847 I have a question for you Hellenismos folk. What is your position on Roman/Latin Hellenism? Do they fall into the same category as your ideals or is it a different "sect" of the same belief? (like how Christianity has different sects.)

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Dec 1 09:48:34 2014 No.5801999 >>5801225 >You can't start a new tradition, folks. You mean restart an old. We most definitely can start new traditions.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Dec 1 10:03:24 2014 No.5802028 op pic looks as a table of some animufag with all those huggable figurines also it has ~the same depth of spirituality

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 10:11:50 2014 No.5802054 File: 105 KB, 500x500, vapor.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5799389 all you need is some ferns and fiji water now

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 16:06:00 2014 No.5803567

>>5801847
Different religion. We consider that they worship the same gods we do, but then we all consider Egyptian polytheism as worship of the same gods. The major difference is that Romans believed they had a sort of covenant arrangement with the gods, whereas the Hellenistic understanding is nothing like a covenant, but a matter of gods giving when they want to and accepting gifts from mortals purely on the "thought that counts" principle.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 16:14:39 2014 No.5803604 >>5802028 Why do you think our religion is shallower than others?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 17:47:36 2014 No.5804107 >>5803567 >>5803604 What's the general Hellenist belief concerning the afterlife? Hades, or transmigration, or what?

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 18:25:38 2014 No.5804330

>>5804107
It's actually very vague and differs from source to source. There's hades and the fields and the judges and spot. Although other more specific aspects are very hard to find many sources that agree on some of the things such as if the dead stay in the same state when they died.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 19:35:48 2014 No.5804673

>>5804107
Personally I'm a rather traditional Hellenist, so I don't really buy transmigration. I see Hades as a myth, like the rest, a story inspired by something rather than an actual occurrence, I see Hades as a representation of the incomprehensible eternal oblivion in human terms.

But due to Pythagoras and Plato there is precedent for Hellenists believing in transmigration, and many serious ones do today, I'm just not one of them.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Dec 1 19:40:22 2014 No.5804698 >>5803604 because it's a new age hobby religion

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 19:43:21 2014 No.5804710 >>5804698 How is Hellenismos a hobby religion? How is Hellenismos New Age? Hellenists don't worship nature or practice magic, and they have worked extremely hard toward recognition in Greece through legal battles.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 19:46:15 2014 No.5804720 Vaporwave thread?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 19:49:56 2014 No.5804737 >>5799389 >that cheap ass flute >that shitty statue >that shitty face that looks from Floral Shoppe album 2/10 would kick you over the Taigeto.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 19:57:55 2014 No.5804778 >>5804737 >cheap ass flute looks like a recorder to me....

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 20:00:10 2014 No.5804790 >>5804737 Probably a Mexican Hellenist.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 20:12:43 2014 No.5804850

>>5804710
>How is Hellenismos New Age

because the religion died and it remains dead. it's the same with gnostics and pagans and so on. they think they are turning to something ancient, but really, it's been dead for ages, and what they practice is nothing more than an affectation, a crude and atheistic recreation that they hold on to in hopes for an identity in the modern world because they aren't strong enough either to embrace nihilism or christianity.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 20:15:36 2014 No.5804857

>>5804850
It's not atheistic, it's a serious faith in the gods. Basically your criticizing it for not being a major religion.

I can't imagine you have any belief in gods or God yourself, because you don't understand how faith works. It's something you feel very ardently, you don't just look through a catalog and pick which faith you want. Sincere Hellenists could never be anything but Hellenists.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Dec 1 20:18:40 2014 No.5804868 >>5804710 it doesn't have real continuity to its tradition like alive religions

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 20:27:51 2014 No.5804911 >>5804868 You're saying the religion is phony because it's revived? Are invented religions also phony?

kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Dec 1 22:18:12 2014 No.5805353

>>5804911
because it's not genuine

i would consider following their philosophy without actually worshiping the gods whom even their philosophers already questioned, if you are into greek philosophy you are a patrician, it's respected, if you worship their gods you are weirdoo

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:25:36 2014 No.5805379

>>5805353
>because it's not genuine
Excuse me, but you have absolutely no place saying that. My faith is very sincere, as is the faith of all serious Hellenists.

If you have reasoned, interesting criticism, then I welcome it, but flat out telling us we're lying about what we believe is nothing but an insult.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:26:38 2014 No.5805382 >>5805353 >hehe anon ur such a weirdo!

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:29:02 2014 No.5805389 Thoughts on how Hellenists conduct animal sacrifices in the modern day and age

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:29:51 2014 No.5805393

>>5804868
>>5804911
You're both wrong. Any revival of a dead pagan religion is fundamentally a new religion. Neopaganism is not, however, "phony" simply because it's not the original religion. (Unless some neopagan say it IS the same, and they do sometimes do this, because that's phony.)

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:34:43 2014 No.5805422

>>5805389
Some groups do, they pitch in and buy the sacrifice. Most Hellenists don't though, they sacrifice other things.

The thing about animal sacrifice is that it's an act of sharing your meal with the Gods, not about atonement through blood as in Judaism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:36:33 2014 No.5805429 >>5805393 This makes sense if you don't see religion as anything but a cultural ritual, but it's fundamentally ludicrous from the standpoint of someone who actually has faith, since for us religion is about worshiping real gods, not roleplaying.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:37:29 2014 No.5805433
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>>5805422

So no ones been checking out the animal's intestines to divine the future?

>implying I don't know that humans get the good bits and Gods the bad bits cause Prometheus was a boss

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:44:19 2014 No.5805473

>>5805433
No, divination isn't practiced since even in ancient times it was shown to be unreliable much of the time. There's not an explicit denial that people can divine things if the gods so wish, but there's no religious criteria for "accepted" divination.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:46:27 2014 No.5805481 >>5805473 On that note; isn't there a bit of difficulty of not knowing which Gods to sacrifice to in times of great stress because there's no Delphic (or other) Oracle?

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 22:51:59 2014 No.5805488

>>5805481
We try to sacrifice to all the gods on a regular enough basis, Zeus especially. If you feel you are being cursed by a particular God, prayer is seen as the best option to determine the wrong if you must, but generally common sense will tell you, it would probably be insult of a God or a moral violation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:04:23 2014 No.5805538 >>5799992 >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgzpHvX3d4Q [Embed] >tfw

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Dec 1 23:04:42 2014 No.5805541
File: 317 KB, 600x872, Homeric Hymn to Demeter - Foley.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5804107
Here's a study on a cool hymn about the Goddess Demeter pretty much saving humanity from a grim afterlife. For about a thousand years people made a pilgrimage to Athens and nearby Eleusis for the initiation rites. Those that did would be spared the kind of fate depicted in The Odyssey, those ghostly shadows condemned to wander in a cold and dark realm.
Demeter and Persephone assured all a better lot in the afterlife. But now that's all gone. The Christians made sure we all went to the shadow lands of Hades with their carpenter. Ah well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:10:05 2014 No.5805563 >>5805541 Take your hat off when indoors, Butterfuck.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Dec 1 23:16:53 2014 No.5805603 >>5805541 >those ghostly shadows condemned to wander in a cold and dark realm what's wrong with wandering among the flowers

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Dec 1 23:17:38 2014 No.5805606 >>5805563 So utter any truism about the negativities of the Christian age, and you're triggered and have to spring this insipid hat meme? You really should be ashamed of yourself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:19:30 2014 No.5805612 >>5804850 >>5804857 I really doubt that modern Europeans are able to enter the religious mindset of the ancient Greeks and Romans (or any polytheists really), it just seems arbitrary to me.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Dec 1 23:24:40 2014 No.5805631 >>5805603 As a shadow? No, I don't care what you think, Elysium is where the dead would rather go.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:30:06 2014 No.5805655

>>5805603
Unless you go the Elysian Fields, I don't see how flowers would factor into it.

>>5805612
Why do you doubt that? Virtually every first religion a society has is polytheist, so I find it odd that you're suggesting polytheism is something bizarre and exotic when it's universal and natural.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:38:34 2014 No.5805683 >>5805538 >lesbian Absolutely disgusting

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Mon Dec 1 23:41:37 2014 No.5805697 File: 218 KB, 840x1120, Sappho 5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5805683 Gtfo degenerate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:43:53 2014 No.5805703 >>5805697 >Sappho >good She wrote a poem about burning with jealousy from her crush laughing with a man, butthurt doesn't make for patrician.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:44:40 2014 No.5805706 >>5805655 I think what he is trying to say is the ideas and mindset of the ancient Greeks is so far off from our modern day that to really be part of the religion one must first be part of the culture and understand its significance.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:45:41 2014 No.5805715 >>5805706 Very different, but let's not forget how much Platonism figured into Christianity, and later Aristotle.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:48:46 2014 No.5805731

>>5805429
>but it's fundamentally ludicrous from the standpoint of someone who actually has faith, since for us religion is about worshiping real gods, not roleplaying.
Neopagans can and should agree. Putting aside theological debate on what you or I or they might think the true nature of God, one can very truly believe in and sincerely worship the real gods of the Greek pantheon. It doesn't have to be role-playing, and I think it's condescending to not see the possibility of genuineness and seriousness.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Mon Dec 1 23:50:07 2014 No.5805736
File: 201 KB, 549x431, bc_light_550.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5805655
asphodel fields
asphodels are adorable flowers

grr, you won't believe me, a virus ate all the hard disk of my pc to a single spare byte and i cannot download and post a pic of a real asphodel... so i post this one, it's related too because it's white and cute and somehow related to the name

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:50:28 2014 No.5805738 >>5805715 It's still as if a person who had never known Christianity tried to follow in the teachings with very few fragments and not understanding the customs that go along with it during church and not knowing all the various ways to pray.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:50:59 2014 No.5805740 >>5805655 I doubt it because it seems difficult to faithfully practice an ancient polytheistic religion in a region which has gone through centuries of Christianisation and secularisation, which isn't a problem in (for instance) Balinese Hinduism.

Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:55:09 2014 No.5805756

>>5805738
Christianity is a far more complex religion, the Delphic Maxims are comparatively far more sparse and most aren't even universal.

There's the customs, yes, but there were guidelines, an order of things to do and a way to do them, and within that you'd create new prayers and ceremonies

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:56:52 2014 No.5805763 >>5805606 >So utter any truism about the negativities of the Christian age, and you're triggered and have to spring this insipid hat meme? lol saying that everyone is going to Hades because Christianity became dominant is not a truism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 1 23:58:29 2014 No.5805766 >>5805756 How can you say Christianity is more complex seeing as Hellenism is older, has many more sacred holidays and has many more gods to worship. There are minor gods as well as the Olympians as well as nature spirits.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Tue Dec 2 00:05:48 2014 No.5805794
File: 94 KB, 726x1000, Return of Persephone.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5805703
She predates "patricians" and good poetry is valued by all. I'm not a good judge of poetry, and her writings are mostly lost, so who knows how good she was.

This anon's disgust is itself a filthy degeneration.

>>5805736
Not as nice as the Elysian Fields

>>5805763
No, I am still an atheist. I'm obviously kidding, but the Christians did wipe out the rites. Demeter saved humanity well before Christ/Yhwh raped Mary and got himself tortured, *for us*

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:09:03 2014 No.5805805

>>5805731
Which faith are you?

>>5805766
Christianity is more complex morally. Hellenism might have had far more complex customs, traditions and myths, but the thing is that those are all flexible within a certain parameter without violating the religion. So for instance if you're praying, you should address a God by several titles at the start, as is respectful, but you can choose which titles those are from many well known ones, or you can make them up by referencing deeds or description of the God. When it comes to the prayer, you can make is simple, or sing a hymn, or perform a chant, there are several options. So the complexity of custom just means more options, rather than more rules. The actual rules to custom are mostly preserved.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:10:13 2014 No.5805812

>>5805794
not that anon, but the poem he was referencing still exists for the most part

Like the very gods in my sight is he who
sits where he can look in your eyes, who listens
close to you, to hear the soft voice, its sweetness
murmur in love and

laughter, all for him. But it breaks my spirit;
underneath my breast all the heart is shaken.
Let me only glance where you are, the voice dies,
I can say nothing,

but my lips are stricken to silence, under-
neath my skin the tenuous flame suffuses;
nothing shows in front of my eyes, my ears are
muted in thunder.

And the sweat breaks running upon me, fever
Shakes my body, paler I turn than grass is;
I can feel that I have been changed, I feel that
death has come near me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:11:21 2014 No.5805817 i'll just say it outright. if you 'worship' any reconstructed pagan gods you are fucking crazy. it's a hobby for nazis and genderqueer edgelords.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:12:01 2014 No.5805821

>>5805805
Morally yes, but the amount of effort to research Hellenism will still be futile in the sense that many things that would be common knowledge or things that they wouldnt consider to write down would get lost to time. Being a history major myself it gets infuriating trying to understand some things that ancient casually refer to, Herodotus or Xenophon are both examples

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:12:20 2014 No.5805824 >>5805817 Hat angle shifted Achievement unlocked

kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Dec 2 00:20:14 2014 No.5805856

>>5805817
>it's a hobby for nazis and genderqueer edgelords
oh, i read the epic of gilgamesh a 2-3 days ago and googled a lot about myasopotamia so i found that site about an american sect of eunuchs (they call themselves transgender women) worshipping cybele. all my what

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:20:24 2014 No.5805858

>>5805821
Oh yes, many things, but not the enduring and universal rules. Many customs and ceremonies are gone, but many of those changed over time within their parameter.

So even if there is tremendous amount of detail missing, the fundamental basis is still there, and there are a lot of people who wrote works on what could be put together, obviously, some works especially for practicing Hellenists.

You can only do what you can, but a lot of tradition is not something ordained and made official by religious officials or oracles, but just improvisation by one city or region to distinguish themselves, since back then you had all sorts of cults and religious affairs that only a citizen of the area had privy to.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:21:34 2014 No.5805864 >>5805856 Plenty of Christian cults that have done crazy shit, that doesn't make Christians psychos.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:22:59 2014 No.5805869 >>5805856 Kitty confirmed for transphobe

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Tue Dec 2 00:26:11 2014 No.5805885 >>5805812 Bi chicks, man. e'erytime.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:31:21 2014 No.5805903 >>5805864 Hahahahaha. >The people who believe in a zombie rape and BDSM savior and wish hell on others aren't psychos Hahahahaha

kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Dec 2 00:32:09 2014 No.5805908

>>5805864
i think the occurrence of psychos among neo-pagans is significantly higher

>>5805869
not really, but it's a special case, cybele male priests were (at least some of them) eunuchs, you may check wiki, that sect claim they were transgender women too...

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Tue Dec 2 00:34:40 2014 No.5805916 >>5805908 Anybody who talks to imaginary friends is a wee bit on the nutter side, Kitty.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:43:58 2014 No.5805954 >>5805908 >i think the occurrence of psychos among neo-pagans is significantly higher Which is still relatively low when compared to atheists.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 00:52:04 2014 No.5805989 >>5805916 A great deal of what we think about and relate to in other people is purely imaginary.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 01:29:15 2014 No.5806088 >>5805908 >i think the occurrence of psychos among neo-pagans is significantly higher Did the goddess of earth chakra tell you that?

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 12:39:33 2014 No.5807473

So without any central text or set requirements for priests, where's the frame of reference? Anyone can do whatever they want and call themselves a Hellenist. To extent that's true with Christianity too, but Catholicism has a central structure, most have requirements for their pastors, and all Christians have the central text of the Bible.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 13:45:43 2014 No.5807752 How does Nietzsche's evaluation of the Greeks measure up with contemporary Hellinists?

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 16:26:09 2014 No.5808368

>>5807473
There's the Delphic Maxims and other moral rules, and there are definite dos and don'ts of worship. You can add and interpret beyond these, but if you don't follow the basis, then you're just a poser.

>>5807752
Nietzsche is correct in his evaluation in the sense that Hellenismos is rooted in accomplishing things rather than simply being ascetic and quiet. At the same time, Hellenismos is not an egoist religion, and it certainly doesn't condone crapping dominating your fellow human beings as the most important thing in life. Hellenismos has a strong work ethic and detests gain through dishonesty and violence. Certainly there were powerful tyrants in ancient times, but even if they were lauded by poets they commissioned, that doesn't mean they were doing anything exemplary by religious standards. Don't confuse poetry inspired by the religion or based upon its stories with religious doctrine or approval. If a Christian wrote a poem about the greatness of Solomon's power and his many wives and concubines, it doesn't mean Christianity consider these things great in any religious sense. The characters of mythology are not religious role models, they are simply protagonists in a story. To the Romans, mythological protagonists were supposed to be religious ideals, but not so with the Greeks.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 17:12:32 2014 No.5808519

Im confused guys, as rational thinkers weve agreed religion is detrimental to society right? Im an agnostic, but do you guys think because the religion in question came from a society that contributed a lot to our civilization its any less retarded to believe in a god?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 17:59:57 2014 No.5808708 >>5808519 Can you explain how Hellenismos is detrimental to society? I certainly don't see how Greek literature would have been nearly as great were it not for their religion.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 20:03:20 2014 No.5809183 >>5808708 for the same reasons any religion is detrimental to society. Does good literature justify believing nonsense? I loved the inferno, love it to death (no pun intended) but I dont think im going to hell.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 20:33:57 2014 No.5809359

>>5809183
Hellenismos has an extremely rational tradition. It was not considered blaspheme to questions the myths or oracles, and there really isn't a Hellenist afterlife except in a poetic sense and for some cults. There's Hades, but it's clear that Hellenists didn't literally believe in it, since in the Odyssey Achilles says Hades is worse than living as lowliest laborer, yet Hellenists frequently say a happy death is better than life.

Hellenism today follows this rationalist tradition, and we don't have anything to do with magic or astrology. We are very skeptical that the Gods ever do anything supernatural, and you're not supposed to pray for anything supernatural. "Do not pray for the impossible" is a Delphic Maxim. "Pray for happiness" is another, in fact it's the most advisable thing to pray for, rather than some sub desire that you think would make you happy. When you do pray for a specific desire, it's generally considered best to pray for guidance on what action you can take to achieve it, rather than on having the Gods materialize it for your lazy ass. You can also, and should also, pray for the blessing of any new undertaking.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Dec 2 20:44:04 2014 No.5809401

>>5809359
>Hellenismos has an extremely rational tradition. It was not considered blaspheme to questions the myths or oracles

maybe in your invented religion
even socrates was executed for blasphemy and aristotle fled athens, all their literature is full of examples how blasphemy is punished, also during roman times their version of 'hellenismos' was notorious for brutal executing of christians

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 20:48:28 2014 No.5809421

>>5809401
Socrates was executed by state law, not by any religious order. In fact, the Delphic Oracle called him the wisest man in Greece. Blasphemy was the charge leveled by the state of Athens, which was not a theocracy. Finally, the blasphemy did not have to do with him questioning the authenticity of any myths or oracles, but was rather something very nebulous and probably political, along with the charge of "corrupting the youth".

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 21:01:11 2014 No.5809463

>>5805805
>Which faith are you?
Not a neopagan if you were wondering, but I can empathize with the idea. No matter who you are we all look for the truth at some point in our lives; sometimes we find it in whatever tradition (including secular atheism) we're raised, sometime we convert to some other position. Ultimately, however, we are all approaching whatever this conclusion is with our own ideas and expectations. Religion's not really some checklist or test you fill out, it's a psychological oasis that people build around. So every religion in every form is necessarily a construction- what makes a /re/construction invalid? Only the sincerity of the practitioner, and while there are plenty of phony neopagans ("rebellious" persons less interested in truth than in appearance) these revival/reconstruction religions are "valid", for lack of a better word, expressions.
Personally I think the Abrahamic criticism of idol and polytheistic worship is correct, but any conception of theism is really more liquid than even the most hardline practitioners will ever admit.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 21:08:08 2014 No.5809488

>>5809463
>and while there are plenty of phony neopagans ("rebellious" persons less interested in truth than in appearance) these revival/reconstruction religions are "valid", for lack of a better word, expressions.
They're valid expressions, but obviously not valid faith, they're valid in the sense that Ren Fair is valid.

>Personally I think the Abrahamic criticism of idol
Christians often have Jesus on Cross in their church, how is that very different from what we do?

>and polytheistic worship is correct, but any conception of theism is really more liquid than even the most hardline practitioners will ever admit.
I think it makes more sense to assume that God inciting senseless violence is not, say, the same God who foments peace and prosperity. I don't see how our world could be ruled by a single God unless he had multiple personalities.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 21:08:53 2014 No.5809489

>>5809421
Not that guy, and that's a valid point, but wasn't Thrasymachus nearly killed by a general because he thought Thrasymachus was blaspheming against the gods? There's some kind of social idea amongst the Greeks that there is a line of blasphemy that can not be crossed.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 21:14:31 2014 No.5809510

>>5809488
>they're valid in the sense that Ren Fair is valid.
Renaissance Fair acting is a hobby of interest. If a neopagan is treating the idea of religion that way, sure, it's not valid. Again, this doesn't have to be the case. Not sure why you're not getting this.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 21:21:36 2014 No.5809532

>>5809401

Hellenism in the time of Socrates? Hellenism in the Christian era? retarded post dude, learn what Hellenism is (and what it's not, such as fucking retarded wannabe-pagan cosplayers lel). Hellenism doesn't denote coherent ideology much less spiritual "movement", no matter what muh polytheistic reconstructionalism over there thinks. Rather it's the ethos of a period of time. In much the same way as globalism is in this period of time.

as such the Hellenistic era definitely entails a third phase of perception of Greek pantheon distinct from what you are talking about. from primitive religion of pre-classical deities such as Homer and Hesiod imply, to "high religion" of classical era city states, to religion losing its efficacy, religion as product for consumption in the cosmopolitan culture of Alexandria. Which last is exactly what modern day "hellenists" also are pushing, though they don't realize it.

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 21:30:23 2014 No.5809553

>>5809489
No, you aren't supposed to cross it because that would bring down rather upon the whole polis. But judging from literature, blasphemy to the Greeks was something much different than it was for Christians, as the Greeks could make up stories about the Gods, often portraying many Gods in rather unfavorable and satirical light. Plato and Pindar both thought certain myths and writers were blasphemous and advised a re-writing, but that sort of thing clearly was not forbade by the religion. Blasphemy would be desecration or overtly insulting the Gods, and most recorded instances it was used as excuse to punish people for political reasons more than anything.

It's also likely than in most cases of blasphemy, even political, the person in question was just exiled, since executing even a blasphemer brings impurity on the community. That's why it was clear Socrates could have gotten an exile if he so chose, and when he preferred execution, it had to be done by his hand so as to absolve the community of guilt.

>>5809510
Well if you're engaging in religion for reenactment rather than faith, it's something like ren fair.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 21:34:50 2014 No.5809571 >>5809532 Christianity was something different in various eras, that doesn't mean there's no such thing as Christianity except for a particular era. The same for Hellenismos.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 23:08:07 2014 No.5810004 why does /lit/ give Christians so much shit but pagans so much slack?

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Dec 2 23:14:38 2014 No.5810031 >>5809532 i already said that if you want to follow some school of the greek philosophy it's respected but if you try to recreate their religion it's silly

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 2 23:21:24 2014 No.5810051 >>5810031 "Silly" is a rather hollow criticism. You could call any religion "silly", but that's very feeble.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Tue Dec 2 23:22:44 2014 No.5810057 >>5810031 No sillier than trying to recreate the god of Abraham.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Dec 2 23:26:18 2014 No.5810070 >>5810051 it's silly not because it's a religion, but because it's a hobby religion >>5810057 both judaism and christianity are continuous for thousand of years, you have no need to 'recreate' them

Anonymous Tue Dec 2 23:30:30 2014 No.5810090

>>5810070
How is it a "hobby"? We put a lot more effort into our religion than a lot of Christians put into theirs.

Hellenism may well have been continuous for thousands of years as well, it was just only legalized in Greece in 2006 so it's hard to keep track of it. There are Hellenists who claim their family came into the faith from it being passed down. But even rejecting all that, even if you look at it is as "new" religion, are you going to claim no religion is legitimate until it's been around for two thousand years?

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Tue Dec 2 23:31:48 2014 No.5810094
File: 49 KB, 582x331, 1417051914820.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5810070
Abraham has been long dead. Every generation recreates that god. Look at all the add-ons since his death. Hundreds of authors have tinkered with his idea of a god.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Tue Dec 2 23:54:35 2014 No.5810186

>>5810090

the amount of effort doesn't matter, quite a lot of people put more effort into their hobby than in their spiritual beliefs

a religion should have a reason to exist, religions have either an enigmatic figure (those are usually multinational) or ancestral beliefs (those are usually national and pagan) as their basis. ancient greeks believed in zeus and other gods because it was what their ancestors believed, christians are christians because they believe in god-man jesus christ and his teaching, muslims believe in the teaching of prophet mohammad, bahai (one of the most recent actual religions) believe in the teachings of bahaullah, the messanger of god etc. now 'hellenismos', they have neither a messenger of god who appeared to them and revealed the truth, nor it's a religion which they inherited from their ancestors, the more so, they don't even actually believe in olympian gods, they are metaphors for them much like they were metaphors for educated christians since middle ages (even dante mentions greek gods quite a lot and even places one man who insulted zeus to the hell among blasphemous), and then they are offended when they are called hobbyists

Anonymous Wed Dec 3 00:02:12 2014 No.5810220

>>5810186
>they don't even actually believe in olympian gods
This is quite wrong, we do believe in the Gods. To say we don't is like saying Christians don't believe in God.

Your criteria are terrible, it's a matter of faith. I can't believe you actually hold a faith if you feel this way. If you were a Christian, for instance, you would not feel that Christianity could not be a "real" religion if it were dead in the future for thousands of years and then revived. If you believed that it wouldn't count as "real" Christianity then, or that it could only be a hobby, then you wouldn't be a real Christian, because you'd be basing the validity of the faith on humans rather than God. Similarly, people who sincerely believe that the Gods exist are not going to say worshiping them is invalid because it's been mostly dead for a long period, that's ludicrous.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 00:10:58 2014 No.5810251 >>5810094 that quote is completely meaningless

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Wed Dec 3 00:17:31 2014 No.5810271

>>5810251
Since it can be out of context, I can't be certain what he meant by it, but what it meant to me right here is, that we *are* the god we imagine. No god alike. And hardly omniscient etc.

No, it has meaning. Your post on the other hand, I'm not so sure about.

Anonymous Wed Dec 3 00:24:18 2014 No.5810300

>>5810271
Not that Anon, I'm the Hellenist currently here, but I don't quite think I'm similar to any of the Gods I worship in that sense, since I don't presume to know their personalities. There are literary depictions of their personalities, but I take that as purely artistic, similar to anthropological depictions. Any immortal and timeless being is no actually comprehensible in terms of human psychology.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Wed Dec 3 00:30:09 2014 No.5810320

>>5810300
>I don't quite think I'm similar to any of the Gods I worship in that sense
As I'm not similar to many of the fictional characters (or real life people for that matter) I've read/heard about. Even if you don't presume to know the mind of Zeus, Athena or whatever, you have some inclinations, be they solid conceptions or allowed to morph. Some, teeny tiny bit.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 00:33:26 2014 No.5810333 >>5810320 Yes, but that doesn't mean that I accept them as more than a personal interpretation, like when you think an animal is thinking something.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Wed Dec 3 00:34:23 2014 No.5810339

>>5810220
that what i listed is the bases of faith
yours has none

as for christianity it actually could die and be legitimately revived because it's not based on the beliefs of your ancestors like 'hellenismos', i wrote about the difference of the faith bases too

Anonymous Wed Dec 3 00:43:27 2014 No.5810384

>>5810339
Hellenismos was not simply followed by Greeks. In fact, the term was coined by Emperor Julian when he was attempting to revive the religion in the face of Christianity.

There are Greeks for whom Hellenismos is a strictly ethnic, native religion, but many of them are those are claimed to be part of pockets for whom it was passed down from and couldn't be open public about it due to it being illegal for so long.

Regardless, I'm not even Greek, so it's not based upon the beliefs of *my* ancestors.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Wed Dec 3 00:50:18 2014 No.5810414 >>5810339 Wow, you're being such a pigheaded snob.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Wed Dec 3 00:54:08 2014 No.5810430

>>5810384
>There are Greeks for whom Hellenismos is a strictly ethnic, native religion

there are 0 greeks for whom it's a native religion because it died out thousand years ago and the modern attempt to resurrect it doesn't have continuity to the religion of old

their native religion (and for a longer period) it's orthodox christianity

also when you speak of the ethics only without an actual belief that those gods exist i remind you again that it's better to stick to philosophy then

>many of them are those are claimed to be part of pockets for whom it was passed down from and couldn't be open public about it due to it being illegal for so long

that's an obvious pulling your legs, i don't buy these secret societies of 1500+ years old.
at best they could keep some ancient folk beliefs like irish and other nations did i.e. something like beliefs in nymphs etc minor deities/spirits

>the term was coined by Emperor Julian when he was attempting to revive the religion in the face of Christianity

haha, and after that you dared to claim that it was a 'rational religion'. like they threw christians to the beasts and did worse atrocities too

Anonymous Wed Dec 3 01:07:05 2014 No.5810504

>>5810430
>their native religion (and for a longer period) it's orthodox christianity
I guess in the sense that Christianity is the native religion of Native Americans. It would be as if Native American religion was only legalized in 2006.

>also when you speak of the ethics only without an actual belief that those gods exist i remind you again that it's better to stick to philosophy then
I actually believe the Gods exist, I'm not sure why you're insulting me and saying I don't. I'm fine with reasoned criticism, but flat out saying my faith doesn't count because I don't actually believe it, is going nowhere. Where do you get off telling me I, as well as all Hellenists, are lying about believing in the Gods?

>haha, and after that you dared to claim that it was a 'rational religion'. like they threw christians to the beasts and did worse atrocities too
But Rome was not a theocracy, so you have no call to be blaming Hellenismos for that.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Wed Dec 3 01:25:58 2014 No.5810593

>>5810504

> guess in the sense that Christianity is the native religion of Native Americans

no, they kept their traditional beliefs and they had had them way longer than they even heard of the christianity, your analogy is twice wrong

>I actually believe the Gods exist, I'm not sure why you're insulting me and saying I don't

that's not about you then but about those who hold it as an ethical teaching only. when a religion reduces to a mere 'ethical teaching' it's not a religion anymore

>But Rome was not a theocracy, so you have no call to be blaming Hellenismos for that.

they deified their emperors, sometimes even before those died, also the refuse to follow the state religion was the main reason why christians were persecuted, those christians who agreed to make an offering were spared

also with that kind of reasoning one cannot blame christianity for burning witches, slaying jews etc, those weren't theocracy states ^)

Anonymous Wed Dec 3 01:37:09 2014 No.5810639

>>5810593
>no, they kept their traditional beliefs and they had had them way longer than they even heard of the christianity, your analogy is twice wrong
Greeks had theirs longer than they heard of Christianity.

Do you have any basis for your assertion that Hellenismos was entirely extinguished by Christian force and not one single person was practicing it for over a thousand years?

>that's not about you then but about those who hold it as an ethical teaching only. when a religion reduces to a mere 'ethical teaching' it's not a religion anymore
No one who self-labels their practice as "Hellenismos" just holds it as an ethical guideline, the term is applied by those who have an actual faith.

>they deified their emperors, sometimes even before those died,
Which is hardly a precedent of Hellenismos. The Romans did what they did, but there is nothing in any Delphic Maxims of ceremonial practice permitting the deification of rulers. Just like Mormons are still Christians, but that doesn't mean the criticism of the Book of Mormon is a legitimate criticism of Christianity in total.

>also with that kind of reasoning one cannot blame christianity for burning witches, slaying jews etc, those weren't theocracy states ^)
I don't blame Christianity for it, no, especially since those things often WERE political, Joan d'Arc is an example of someone being executed for "heresy" when it's clearly political,.

However, there were actual Christian theocracies, such as the Papal State. The closest thing the Greeks had to that was Delphi, which was virtually politically neutral BECAUSE it was a religious center.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 02:16:41 2014 No.5810764 >>5810593 Are you a Christian, kitty?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 14:43:33 2014 No.5812739 >>5810004 kitty clearly doesn't. reow :3

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 16:45:50 2014 No.5813116 >>5810004 Might mitigate it if you try forcing "Start with the Bible" as a meme

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 19:39:11 2014 No.5813852 I know a pagan qt. tips on seduction?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 19:40:23 2014 No.5813857 >>5810004 Newfag that can't even read this one thread, please go.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 19:45:52 2014 No.5813883 >>5808519 >Im confused guys, as rational thinkers weve agreed religion is detrimental to society right? There are lot of religious posters on this board.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 20:45:00 2014 No.5814158 >>5813852 start with the greeks

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Wed Dec 3 23:21:58 2014 No.5814714 >>5810764 Clearly. And vaguely antisemitic. >>5812739 She scared. >>5813116 They do this. Muh allusions and all that. >>5813852 Learn a little ancient Greek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3uo_08EIbc

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 3 23:41:28 2014 No.5814783 >>5814714 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SNw-DxkEY0

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 02:54:12 2014 No.5815398 >>5799389 bump.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 15:27:55 2014 No.5817510 bump

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 15:43:00 2014 No.5817579 >>5799389 >What are some good resources for someone interested in Hellenismos? Start with the Greeks.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 15:47:18 2014 No.5817592 >>5814714 Starting with the bible is a good idea, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 17:36:41 2014 No.5817996 >>5799389 bump. We can't let this not be on the front page now. Come on guys.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 17:37:46 2014 No.5818000 >>5817996 why are you promoting cancer?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 17:42:22 2014 No.5818012 >>5818000 Same reason these guys are >>5817888

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 17:44:53 2014 No.5818020 >>5818012 That faggot's a Hellenist, see his link.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 23:16:49 2014 No.5819198 File: 473 KB, 900x655, dionysos.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Posting in an epic thread. Where were you when the hellenism meme was born?

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 23:22:49 2014 No.5819214 >>5819198 RIP /lit/

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Thu Dec 4 23:32:36 2014 No.5819259 File: 162 KB, 1051x1400, Vallain-Liberty(lg).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5819214 Rest in peace Jesus. Tips foreskin This Saturnalia is going to be the bestest yet! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHNsRZ8iqFc

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 23:39:38 2014 No.5819279 >>5819214 This is a hellenistic board now. You christians can fuck off.

>>	Anonymous Thu Dec 4 23:40:57 2014 No.5819284 File: 13 KB, 365x280, 8900.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5819279 Is Hellenismos the most /lit/ faith?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 00:22:19 2014 No.5819424 >>5799389 Kyklos Appolon has international meditation hours, check it out

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 00:24:14 2014 No.5819431 >>5799992 Orphism, Pythagorism and tons of Neoplatonic sects around are full of witchcraft.

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 00:35:08 2014 No.5819474

>>5819424
Not OP, but thanks a bunch.

>>5819431
Neither the one who posted that, but that comes from a site for "traditional" Hellenists, they use the term "Dodekatheism" to distinguish themselves from other groups..For instance, they'll use Homeric Hymns in prayer, but no Orphic Hymns, because they go against traditional Hellenismos.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 01:39:07 2014 No.5819691 Why would anybody choose to worship the Greek gods, out of all the religions in the world?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 01:42:01 2014 No.5819710 >>5819284 No, it's Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Fri Dec 5 01:45:50 2014 No.5819728 >>5819710 Which want you to read about one book. Bzzzz.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 01:54:25 2014 No.5819744 >>5819691 Spiritual experience, or because it feels right. If you have faith in the Olympians, there's no point in trying to cultivate faith in a singular God.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:02:40 2014 No.5819772 File: 99 KB, 516x418, 1417762960604.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5819728 le retard faec

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:04:09 2014 No.5819775 >>5819728 Augustine, Aquinas and Anselm want a word with you.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:05:10 2014 No.5819777 >>5819744 If there's no point in cultivating faith in a singular God, why multiple?

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:06:06 2014 No.5819779

Great Gods of Olympus, please accept this humble sacrifice on behalf of this poor mortal.

Dionysus, greatness is thine! Take these, thy grapes, and have thy wine!

Apollo, thy splendor brings sunlight! Accept this music! I shall play "Hot Cross Buns" on my recorder for thee!

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:07:53 2014 No.5819785 >>5819777 By a singular God, I mean the God of the Abrahamic faiths. Faith is not really something you can just choose to have, it comes into your life at some point. For us, it's faith in the Olympian Gods.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Fri Dec 5 02:08:23 2014 No.5819788
File: 91 KB, 1024x768, Milos Greece 8.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The whole show is nice, but I thought I'd start it at this point for you anons
http://youtu.be/68P6aLRTin0?t=42m47s

>>5819772
Yes yes, I know all about it. Once the early church drove away all those other texts they didn't like, they started to write their own heresies.
You've seen that anon who posts periodically that Calvinism is the one true Christianity? He isn't too far wrong.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:15:24 2014 No.5819812 Sure is heresy in here.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Fri Dec 5 02:15:49 2014 No.5819814 >>5819788 Well that didn't work. I tried to start it at 42:40

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:57:57 2014 No.5819918 itt is what happens when you start with the greeks lesson learned

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 02:58:45 2014 No.5819922 >>5819918 Like Icarus, /lit/ flew too high

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 13:51:00 2014 No.5820909

>Hellenismos doesn't consider conquest virtuous.

Why do you neopagans always water down your religions to align with christian ones? Conquest is something humans have been doing for tens of thousands of years. Can't you just say "Conquest is one way to obtain virtue, although in the modern era it's impractical and not recommended."

I have the same question for Hindu Nationalists who get all offend when people imply that Hinduism might be more sex positive than Christianity or Islam. "HOW DARE YOU IMPLY WE HAVE HEALTHY ATTITUDES TOWARDS SEX!" It's like they feel obligated to measure themselves by Abrahamic standards.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 14:06:01 2014 No.5820949 >>5820909 I dunno about your sexy hindus, but Christianity is is no way opposed to conquest. >in this sign conquer I mean, come ON. How many Christian empires have we had?

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 14:14:57 2014 No.5820969

>>5820909
You don't really understand what virtue is, you don't "obtain" it. Conquest is a way to achieve *glory*, yes, but don't confuse cultural glory with religion virtue. Kleos and arete are not the same thing. Kleos is about having many children and cementing name for yourself in fame and song, and it was no doubt an important part of Greek culture, but it has nothing to do with religion, it has to do preserving your memory after you're gone.

Arete, on the other hand, is not something you win, it's a quality you cultivate. Having numerous kids is glorious, but when it comes to raising them, that's a matter of virtue.

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 14:15:18 2014 No.5820974

>>5820949
That's the REASON I'm opposed to any faith that preaches against violence. It's inherently hypocritical. Sooner or latter you are going to make an exception to that rule.

Christians talk about turning the other cheek and how the meek will inherit the earth, and then they rape entire continents to death. Islam is a religion of peace, until it's blowing itself up in a crowded market.

As for sex, the same problem exists. Any religion that tries to restrain sexual behavior, usually only ends up meaning "Women should be property of men and cover themselves up in public so I won't feel tempted to rape them" They are fine with sex as long as a man is in charge.

The Abrahamic faiths have horrible track records on both sex and violence. And it disturbs me that people seem to follow their lead on morality. "Sex is evil unless it's making babies and affirming the father's authority" and "Violence is evil unless you are killing 'evil' people."

I'd rather a religion that sees sex and violence as an essential part of human existence.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 14:19:12 2014 No.5820983 >>5820974 Sounds like Kali and Bacchus are the gods for you! Or maybe the Norse gods...

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 14:31:25 2014 No.5821027
File: 1.04 MB, 1660x2208, British_Museum_Queen_of_the_Night.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5820983
I'm fond of Ishtar myself. But here I'm wondering why Hellenismos tries to brush how militaristic the greeks were under the rug as if it were something to be ashamed of.

>>	BigPenis !N4bnZoKwfU Fri Dec 5 14:42:31 2014 No.5821061 >>5820974 Jesus, could you at least read Houston Smith's "The World's Religions" before you go ranting? Your evaluations of religion are embarrassing.

>>	BigPenis !N4bnZoKwfU Fri Dec 5 14:43:41 2014 No.5821063 >>5820983 >>5821027 Religion is not a fashion trend you dawn to reflect your pride of personality. If there's any essence to it it's humility.

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 14:45:52 2014 No.5821067

>>5821027
We don't. We just get irritated by people trying to muddle us into some sort of Mongolian religion and make us synonymous with Vikings.

Conquest was an important part of Greek culture, like it was all ancient cultures, but it's not part of the Greek religion. I'm not ashamed of it's part in the Greek world, but I'm sick and tired of people trying to make into some Master Morality™ antipode of Christianity. Hellenismos isn't about being a fucking Klingon, there isn't a Delphic Maxim commanding one to slay many enemies.

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 14:49:42 2014 No.5821082

>>5821063
>Tripfaggot
>Lecturing people on Humility.

>>5821067
Fair enough. People talk about the Iliad all the time. but the Odyssey ends with Athena telling everyone to stop fighting.
I'm just saying you shouldn't demonize violence when nearly all human societies have participated in it in one way or another.

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 15:04:18 2014 No.5821148

>>5821082
You need to understand the Iliad was not a religion guideline for behavior, it wasn't reciting at worship.

The Iliad was a cultural poem great inspired by religion, but some Greeks even thought it was blasphemous, like Plato.

Finally, you do not understand the Iliad if you think it's endorsing violence anymore than any other war story does. The Iliad is about anger, loss and destructiveness, it's not about how fun these things are. It portrays the nobility of courage, yes, but most war stories do that. The Iliad is not pro-war in the sense that Starship Troopers is.

>I'm just saying you shouldn't demonize violence when nearly all human societies have participated in it in one way or another.
Yeah, well the Greeks had a God of violence, Ares, and Homer clearly doesn't care for him too much, neither do the other Gods. Most Greeks didn't like him so much as accept him, like you accept Eris. The Spartans were an unusual exception in that they adored Areas, but the Homeric Hymn for Ares wasn't written until after the Romans rehabilitated him (a long, long time after the rest of the Hymns were written), which should tell you something, since the Homeric Hymns were like the Greek Book of Psalms.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 15:11:16 2014 No.5821183 >>5821063 >Not finding the right god(or godess) for you Even Christians do this with saints! Myself, I'm a fan of Athena.

goy/Quentin, Savior Machine !P8eANdQMDg Fri Dec 5 19:06:12 2014 No.5822063 [DELETED]

File: 163 KB, 818x768, catholicism redpilled.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Why is /lit/ full of degenerate heathens?
>embracing a dead cult created by pederast fags for pederast fags

What's wrong with Christianity?

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 19:09:14 2014 No.5822080 >>5822063 >>5822052

>>	goy/Quentin, Savior Machine !P8eANdQMDg Fri Dec 5 19:13:23 2014 No.5822098 >>5822080 >implying any of that had anything to do with religion

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 19:18:14 2014 No.5822123 >>5822063 >All the things that make life better are an affront to god.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 19:36:51 2014 No.5822213 >>5822063 I don't believe in it. I subscribe to the Gods I believe exist.

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 19:51:46 2014 No.5822272 >>5822063 >worshipping a dead kike on a stick

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 19:58:29 2014 No.5822292
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>>5822063
Since I started posting on 4chan I've become so conservative that I realized Christians are libtard degenerates and have started propositioning my old professors with my yung, tender anus the way it was done back in the good ol' days

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 23:23:11 2014 No.5822956 File: 548 KB, 640x1000, Bread Pill.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >worshiping idols >not being bread pilled >2014

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 23:31:18 2014 No.5822979

>>5821027
>New age autismal paganists worship my peoples dead gods

Assyrians were among the first to convert to Christianity. We are exclusively Christian. Our paganism is as "brainwash the masses for war" as it gets lmao. Ishtar was literally a goddess of war whenever the priests wanted her to be a goddess of war.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Fri Dec 5 23:48:30 2014 No.5823021

>>5821027
athene was a goddess of war too

also do you know that male priests of ishtar were often/usually eunuchs and that ishtar cult practiced male ritual prostitution as well as female one

a goddes of whores and eunuchs, nothing to be fond of imo

also if you read 'the epic of gilgamesh' or more older poems about bilgames, ishtar/inanna is a royal bitch there, it's especially funny in the older poem, in the later epic she simply threatened to set zombies to eat alive:

>Great An answered holy Inanna:
>'O my child, the Bull of Heaven would have no food, at the horizon is its food!
>O maiden Inanna, it grazes where the sun rises!
>I shall not give you the Bull of Heaven.'
>Holy Inanna answered him:
>'Then I shall scream until sky draws nigh earth!'
>It was terrifying, it was terrifying,
>[the scream of] Inanna was terrifying.
>[The maiden Inanna' s] scream drew nigh heaven, the scream drew nigh earth,
>[holy Inanna's] scream drew nigh heaven, the scream drew nigh earth,
>[Heaven and earth] it covered like a [blanket], draped like a cloth.
>Who was there could speak to [holy Inanna]?
>Great An answered holy Inanna, he gave her the Bull of Heaven.

>>5822979
you are armenian i suppose

>>	Anonymous Fri Dec 5 23:51:58 2014 No.5823025 >>5823021 >My peoples dead gods >Armenian Assyrian. Foreigners worshiping our old gods long dead. Funny.

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 23:54:26 2014 No.5823030

>>5823021
>athene was a goddess of war too
Technically, but not the same capacity as most war deities. Athena prefers diplomacy to war and rational war conducted where there is no other option. She was the goddess of courage and intellect, and that is the sense she was a goddess of war.

If you were conducting a war for no purpose other than to pillage, Ares would be the go-to god, not Athena.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Fri Dec 5 23:57:10 2014 No.5823035 >>5823030 >Athena prefers diplomacy to war should i quote you that part from 'iliad' where she and hera wanted troy to be ruined when there was a chance to solve it all peacefully

Anonymous Fri Dec 5 23:58:35 2014 No.5823037

>>5822956
>Christians
>Not worshipping the cross, mary, the church, the abstract xenophobia they cling to
>Jesus
>Not a second "god before me"

There is literally no compelling evidence that Jesus isn't a demon "catching more flies with honey" in direct defiance of the 1st commandment. Nevermind that he didn't actually exist.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:05:14 2014 No.5823055

>>5823037
"There's no documents about his existence!"
Because the Romans and the Jews wouldn't burn all evidence of him, the same way peoples would try to destroy trace of all civilizations or religions they were against.

How about you don't have a bias against Christianity just because your Catholic school principle was a hard ass

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:08:39 2014 No.5823061 >>5823035 If the literary capacity for gods were the same as the religious capacity, Zeus would be the god of sex.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:09:45 2014 No.5823066 File: 315 KB, 757x725, Testimonium.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5823037 >Nevermind that he didn't actually exist. Josephus and Tacitus would like a word.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:10:56 2014 No.5823071 File: 124 KB, 719x800, 1417486310968.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5823037 >getting this mad

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 00:12:47 2014 No.5823073 >>5823061 i.e. you don't even use authentic sources for your hobby religion

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:15:45 2014 No.5823076 >>5823073 I'm even not a Hellenist, you dumb whore, I was just clarifying your poor understanding.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 00:19:05 2014 No.5823083 >>5823076 greeks didn't really have sacred texts afaik except hymns, so poems like iliad are among our main sources of their mythology

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:20:19 2014 No.5823087

>>5823066
Virtually all other claims of Jesus come from sources outside of Christian writings. Devastating to the claims of Christians, however, comes from the fact that all of these accounts come from authors who lived after the alleged life of Jesus. Since they did not live during the time of the hypothetical Jesus, none of their accounts serve as eyewitness evidence.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Pliny the Younger (born: 62 C.E.) His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of range as an eyewitness account.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E., mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Yeshu, according to scholars depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus or it may refer to Yeshu ben Pandera, a teacher of the 2nd centuy CE. Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud didn't come into existence until the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion. At best it can only serve as a controversial Christian or Jewish legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:21:02 2014 No.5823089 >>5823087 >>5823055

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:21:40 2014 No.5823092

>>5823021
The moral of the epic of Gilgamesh is "Sometimes civilization is a bitch, but it's better to live as a civilized man than die as a barbarian." As the godess of love and war, Inanna represents civilization as a whole, for all it's benefits and faults. Gilgamesh's spurning Inanna, and Enkidu's cursing Shamat are meant to be strawmen, both of them learn their lessons. Enkidu realizes that the life he had was better than living as an animal, and Gilgamesh eventually comes home to realize that Uruk (Ishtar's city) is his immortality.

In the modern Era, she would be the goddess of everything neo-reactionary fags hate. The great whore of Babylon. That alone is reason enough to worship her today.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:30:04 2014 No.5823105

>>5823083
Therefore? Do you think their mythology was of religious significance? cultural, surely, because it told about ancestors of the aristocracy, but the gods would be the worst of role models. they commit incest, they murder people, they fuck wives, they rape married women, they steal from each other. Obviously they don't work very hard, they don't need to. So the gods are the worst role models, they aren't moral instructors in the myths, Greek religious morality and convention does not come from the myths.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:30:23 2014 No.5823107

>>5823092

http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/mesopotamian/gilgamesh/tab7.htm

>When Shamash heard what his mouth had uttered,
>he suddenly called out to him from the sky:
>"Enkidu, why are you cursing the harlot, Shamhat,
>she who fed you bread fit for a god,
>she who gave you wine fit for a king,
>she who dressed you in grand garments,
>and she who allowed you to make beautiful Gilgamesh your comrade!
>Now Gilgamesh is your beloved brother-friend!
>He will have you lie on a grand couch,
>will have you lie on a couch of honor.
>He will seat you in the seat of ease, the seat at his left,
>so that the princes of the world kiss your feet.
>He will have the people of Uruk go into mourning and moaning over you,
>will fill the happy people with woe over you.
>And after you he will let his body bear a filthy mat of hair,
>will don the skin of a lion and roam the wilderness."
>As soon as Enkidu heard the words of valiant Shamash,
>his agitated heart grew calm, his anger abated.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:33:11 2014 No.5823112

>>5823087
>none of their accounts serve as eyewitness evidence.

The same can be said for nearly every historical person ever
of Hannibal we only have 2 sources, Polybius and Livy, of which Polybius is the earliest writing nearly 30-40 years after the alleged events, certainly no eye witness

kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 00:33:24 2014 No.5823113

>>5823092
>Inanna represents civilization as a whole

i want to change one letter there...

>Enkidu realizes that the life he had was better than living as an animal, and Gilgamesh eventually comes home to realize that Uruk (Ishtar's city) is his immortality.

it was shamash who explained enkidu why he is wrong cursing that whore

gilgamesh's immortality it was the walls which he built (actually he was wrong, it's the fame, so he was more right earlier when he linked his immortality to the expedition to the forest of cedar), it's not related to the temple of ishtar

uruk had temples of both anu and ishtar

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:34:27 2014 No.5823117

Nothing really to contribute, just some sad feels.

>tfw don't personally know any other followers of the old ways
>tfw 'reconstructions' all feel like scams to get money
>tfw people look at me like I'm crazy when I talk about my gods
>tfw can't get time off work for Yule but the black girl got off for kwanza
>tfw making sacrifices and feasting alone
>tfw people are trying to make 'asatru' a thing instead of just being happy to be around other followers of the old ways
>tfw super splintered segments of followers because muh politics, muh spiritual leaders

Thankfully, the gods have not abandoned me as I'm devoted and haven't abandoned them.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 00:36:47 2014 No.5823127 >>5823105 >Greek religious morality and convention does not come from the myths it comes invented on the spot

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:40:06 2014 No.5823140

>>5823113
Still, Inanna isn't "Bad" for killing Enkidu any more than Poseidon is for making Ulysses spend 10 years to cross the Aegean.

Reading the story as "Bros before Hos" or "Inanna is a huge bitch" dosn't do it justice.

At any rate, she'd still have to do a LOT worse to beat out YHWH as the biggest asshole in mythology. Keep in mind many Isrealites still preferred to worship Asherah (Another version of Ishtar/Inanna) long after she was written out of the pantheon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:45:30 2014 No.5823159 >>5823127 so does all religious morality, in fact all morality period.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 00:49:15 2014 No.5823173

>>5823140
>Inanna isn't "Bad" for killing Enkidu

but enkidu was killed by a request of anu

>Enkidu began to speak to Gilgamesh: 'My brother, this night what a dream [I dreamed!] The gods Anu, Enlil, Ea and celestial Shamash [held assembly], and Anu spoke unto Enlil: "These, because they slew the Bull of Heaven, and slew Humbaba that [guarded] the mountains dense-[wooded] with cedar," so said Anu, "between these two [let one of them die!]"

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 00:51:49 2014 No.5823182 >>5823173 How does that not prove my point? Inanna did nothing wrong. Gilgamesh was wrong to reject her.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 00:58:06 2014 No.5823198

>>5823182
it makes it irrelevant

>Inanna did nothing wrong. Gilgamesh was wrong to reject her.

gilgamesh listed quite a few of her former lovers and their sad fate, she sent the bull of heaven who killed a lot of people and did a lot of harm too and eventually the killing of that bull was one of the reasons why enkidu died

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 01:02:41 2014 No.5823206 >>5823198 Yes, the gods were very harsh in Mesopotamian mythology. But The Epic of gilgamesh explains why we should worship them instead of trying to be strong independent men who don't need no goddess.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 01:17:24 2014 No.5823229
File: 1.51 MB, 1900x1564, Utrecht_Moreelse_Heraclite.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5800311
>Universals
There are none.
All is in flux, static universals are nonexistent in our fluid reality.

Morals or not, you will act accordingly to what you are.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 01:49:05 2014 No.5823301 >>5823206 Also in the pre-biblical version of the flood myth, Inanna is the first god to regret humanity's near total destruction. The rainbow that god sends in the bible as proof he won't flood the world again, that was originally Inanna's necklace.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 01:52:59 2014 No.5823316 >>5823229 Parmenides > Heraclitus

kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 02:02:54 2014 No.5823342

>>5823206
that's a very weird reading of it. the god patron of gilgamesh was shamash and he supported him for the whole epic

>>5823301
that's not inanna, that's belet-ili
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninhursag

>Then at once Belet-ili arrived,
>she lifted the flies of lapis lazuli that Anu had made for their
courtship:
>"O gods, let these great beads in this necklace of mine
>make me remember these days, and never forget them!
>"All the gods shall come to the incense,
>but to the incense let Enlil not come,
>because he lacked counsel and brought on the Deluge,
>and delivered my people into destruction."

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:10:23 2014 No.5823364 >>5823316 >Parmenides Read Aristotle's Physics and come back.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:18:11 2014 No.5823387
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>>5823316
>Parmenides
>The senses that we have developed through natural selection which have helped us survive and attain knowledge should not be trusted.

This is the modern lie.
Appearances are not superficial, they MEAN something.
Your appearance is the amalgamation of two family lines, and is who you are.
You can hate it, you can put a blanket over it, you can turn your back on it, but you cannot escape it.

This is what the feminists and blacks tried to do with feminism and civil rights, they want to run away from the determining past. Instead of bettering themselves in relation to the white man or accepting their fate they begged to have the same rights and priviledges like they deserved to be alive. Deserving is earned, its not begged for.

Traditionalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErD7FsbFHVQ&feature=youtu.be

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:31:30 2014 No.5823413 >>5823387 Parmenides is a "modern lie"? If you're a traditionalist, why are you being such a materialist?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:34:56 2014 No.5823421 >>5823413 >If you're a traditionalist, why are you being such a materialist? Because tradition requires genetic material to maintain itself, not just any genetics but those that have proven to understand it and value it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:36:29 2014 No.5823426 >>5823421 I'm not too familiar with Evola, but as far as I know he detests stressing genetics and evolution ideologically, preferring spiritual ideals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:39:17 2014 No.5823430 >>5823387 >Parmenides is a modernist Full retard.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:47:25 2014 No.5823461
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>>5799389
What kind of pagans are you guys?

Are you real pagans or liberal white guilt 'nature is love' pagans like the faggots in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71swxdSzY1w

Do any of you have dreads? If you do, kill yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:51:29 2014 No.5823476 >>5823461 What's wrong with dreads? Spartans had them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 02:52:36 2014 No.5823480 >>5823476 the problem is people that get dreads these days do it because jamaicans have dreads.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 03:04:37 2014 No.5823507 >>5823480 I still don't see what the problem is m8.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 03:05:14 2014 No.5823510 >>5823461 Hellenists, sincere practitioners. We take our faith and its mores and traditions seriously.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 03:07:39 2014 No.5823515 >>5823510 How do you deal with or answer/refute Plato and Aristotle's criticisms and arguments against Pantheistic Hellenism?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:04:16 2014 No.5823520 >>5823515 Hellenismos is not (inherently) pantheistic, it's polytheistic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:08:59 2014 No.5823523 >>5823520 >>5823520 Sorry, you're right, polytheism was the word I intended. So how do you deal with or answer/refute Plato and Aristotle's criticisms and arguments against polytheistic Hellenism?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:10:02 2014 No.5823526 >>5799992 >my girlfriend I understand Mediterranean societies were very loose with sexuality, but they always promoted bisexualism, not pure homosexuality.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:16:52 2014 No.5823536

>>5823523
They try to anthropomorphize the Gods too much, perfection is the major flaw. If there is only one kind of perfection, for instance, they why difference forms of art? Why would you make different statues, you'd just have one perfect statue and make copies. But as you can see, that's ridiculous. Similarly there are multiple Gods which are perfect, yet different, there is no monolithic perfection.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:18:08 2014 No.5823537 >>5823526 By "pure", do you mean monogamous?

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:29:44 2014 No.5823549

>>5823536
Aristotle doesn't conflate God with "perfection". Plato does, but not in any kind of sense that you're thinking of, but only as the source of all "Good" or perfection in everything else. How much of Aristotle and Plato have you actually read? Because that was a really irrelevant answer to give, no offense. Neither Aristotle nor Plato anthropomorphize God/Gods at all except to criticize the idea of an anthropomorphic deity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:32:50 2014 No.5823553 >>5823536 Existence is made from both the one and the zero, not just the perfect one. It is the basis of our psychology(fight/flight), sex(male/female), politics(right/left) etc.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:39:00 2014 No.5823558

>>5810593
>they kept their traditional beliefs
Yes, many of them kept them in secret despite forced conversions and brainwashing their children were put through in those schools the government coerced them to send their children to.

>those weren't theocracy states
>Church of England
>Founded by the King of England

Come on, now.

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 04:40:26 2014 No.5823559 like xenophanes wrote if horses or lions were sapient they would invent gods looked like horses and lions, and he wrote it like 5th century bc

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:43:35 2014 No.5823564 >>5819775 So I can read them try to adapt Plato to fit their kike religion?

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 04:45:38 2014 No.5823566 >>5823558 we all believe in the unique greeks who kept their beliefs in secret for 1500+ years like no other nation could manage also roman emperors were priests as well and greek kings often were priests too

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:47:05 2014 No.5823567

>>5823549
I've read Aristotle's Organon, Metaphyisics, Ethics and Poetics.

Aristotle conceives of one sort of eternal substance, which he concludes must be indivisible. I consider that substance to be perfect, but I do not consider there to be only one manner of substance. In order to believe that there was only one eternal substance, you'd have to have a very linear conception.

I don't mean they anthropomorphize them physically, I mean in their conception of divine qualities.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:48:06 2014 No.5823571 >>5823553 I consider there to be a lot more than 1 and 0, or else there would only be two Gods.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:49:07 2014 No.5823572 >>5823567 Oh, as for Plato, I've read just about all of dialogues, certainly every major one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:54:51 2014 No.5823580 >>5823571 There is always a father and a mother.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 04:58:33 2014 No.5823589 >>5823580 What about mitosis?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:03:46 2014 No.5823595 >>5820974 >Women should be property of men Post-modernist attempting to critique pre-industrial societies please leave and never return. Women were not property and divorce was possible.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:06:09 2014 No.5823600
File: 311 KB, 318x355, 1342682970956.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5823567
>one sort
...No. No, he literally doesn't. There is no "one substance" in Aristotle's hylomorphism.
>eternal
No, he explicitly mentions substance can pass away by losing its essential or necessary quality.

This is in the fucking Categories, dude, his basic "intro" work that serves as the foundation for everything else, and it's all laid out explicitly and clearly and mentioned time and time again in his later works. How did you get this wrong?

>I mean in their conception of divine qualities.
Aristotle's "divine quality" has nothing anthropomorphic about it. It's just actuality or existence, there are no human morals or qualities attributed to it. Plato never even attaches any qualities to "The Good" and leaves it as an exercise for the reader, so I don't know how you think he could have possibly anthropormorphized it in any way in his works.

I won't lie to you, that was really disappointing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:06:34 2014 No.5823601 >>5799389 kek, butthurt christfags http://boards.4chan.org/pol/thread/39700573/

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:10:42 2014 No.5823609

>>5823600
>It is clear then from what has been said that there is a substance which is eternal and unmovable and separate from sensible things. It has been shown also that this substance cannot have any magnitude, but is without parts and indivisible (for it produces movement through infinite time, but nothing finite has infinite power; and, while every magnitude is either infinite or finite, it cannot, for the above reason, have finite magnitude, and it cannot have infinite magnitude because there is no infinite magnitude at all). But it has also been shown that it is impassive and unalterable; for all the other changes are posterior to change of place.

Derp

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:11:55 2014 No.5823613 >>5823609 And by "one substance", I mean don't mean the only substance, dumb ass, I mean one of Aristotle's listed substances.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:14:54 2014 No.5823622 >>5823613 >And by "one substance", I mean don't mean the only substance, dumb ass, I mean one of Aristotle's listed substances. My bad, that's what it seemed like from your post.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:16:56 2014 No.5823632 >>5823589 The two cells are never completely the same. Look close enough and you see nothing. Look far enough and you see one.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:20:54 2014 No.5823646 >>5800678 Didn't the Romans worship Greek Gods?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:30:33 2014 No.5823670 >>5809401 Christians were trying to take over the Empire. It behaved in a similar way to Communism in say the Russian Empire. Eventually rising up and taking over.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:30:43 2014 No.5823672

>>5823632
Yeah, okay. Empedocles, That's applying our natural method of perception and dicing up reality to the divine quality propelling reality. Just because it's in our nature to sort things in a binary fashion, doesn't mean things inherently binary, Strife can be contrasted with love, but strife can be made binary as well (see Works and Days), as can love (see Symposium). We have a tendency to simplify this way.

>>5823646
Yes, in fact it was Roman Emperor Julian who coined the term "Hellenismos", which he used a term to refer to the Greek religion as contrasted with Christianity, since "pagan" is not only a catchall, but was an inherently derogatory word in his time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 05:41:14 2014 No.5823703 >implying the grecoroman gods arent just minor deities sent to the world by a major deity, the deity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 07:43:05 2014 No.5823879 File: 32 KB, 220x239, 220px-IVLIANVS.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5799389 Bump. Anyone read Julian's Aganist The Christians ?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 07:51:32 2014 No.5823899 >>5823879 You mean Against the Galilaeans. Against the Christians was written by Porphyry. It seemed like a fussy waste of time as I recall. His worth The Caesars where he invites past caesars to a banquet to make fun of them is much more entertaining.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 07:55:55 2014 No.5823907

>>5823703
haven't you read 'paradise lost'? they all are devils, not even of the strongest, tammuz and astarte, even osiris and isis are stronger

from the description of a hell meeting:

>The rest were long to tell; though far renowned
>Th' Ionian gods—of Javan's issue held
>Gods, yet confessed later than Heaven and Earth,
>Their boasted parents;—Titan, Heaven's first-born,
>With his enormous brood, and birthright seized
>By younger Saturn: he from mightier Jove,
>His own and Rhea's son, like measure found;
>So Jove usurping reigned. These, first in Crete
>And Ida known, thence on the snowy top
>Of cold Olympus ruled the middle air,
>Their highest heaven; or on the Delphian cliff,
>Or in Dodona, and through all the bounds
>Of Doric land; or who with Saturn old
>Fled over Adria to th' Hesperian fields,
>And o'er the Celtic roamed the utmost Isles.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 13:12:34 2014 No.5824642 >>5823703 >God of the Jews >THE deity

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 14:05:52 2014 No.5824819 Why is it that evety time the greco-roman gods are mentioned or used in older english works, the authors always chose the roman equivalents over the greek ones? Its always Jove, Minerva, Saturn, etc.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 14:08:39 2014 No.5824830

>>5824819
Western culture grew out of the Roman Empire, so those are the names that people were familiar with a long time ago and it just stayed that way until the 20th Century or so.

They still use Roman equivalents for some names (Achilles, as opposed to Achilleus), and even the Greek names we often don't pronounce properly (the eu in Odysseus is pronounced the same as the eu in Zeus).

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 14:43:33 2014 No.5824982 >>5823879 Reading it now. Julian was The last true Patrician.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 17:36:32 2014 No.5825742 >>5824830 I know they come from the same indoeuropean pantheon, but did the romans and greek believe that they were the same gods, that they shared the same deities, or did they believe that they were approximations of each others?

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 17:40:28 2014 No.5825757 >>5825742 They believed they were the same gods, just with names spoken in different languages.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:10:29 2014 No.5826087 >>5824982 No, Julian was the Evola of his time, a hopeless traditionalist stuck in the past. Christianity is the basis of our culture, morals and progressive nature.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:16:43 2014 No.5826111

>>5826087
>implying polytheism isn't a better expression of our modern multicultural values.
>Implying the positive aspects of Christianity weren't borrowed from the Greeks.
>Implying YHWH isn't a tribal war god and putting him in charge of your entire worldview won't cause problems.
>Implying Julian's critique isn't still valid.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:22:50 2014 No.5826128 >>5826111 Julian was basically butthurt people wanted to worship an all loving God instead of Roman Emperors.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:37:15 2014 No.5826174
File: 183 KB, 640x873, St. Augustine reking pagans.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Question for pagans:

If Zeus/Jupiter is the king of the gods, why not just worship him alone? Surely if one finds favor with the king of gods all the other gods will honor you.

Why bother with the rest of the pantheon?

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:37:46 2014 No.5826178

>>5825742
Romans and Greeks outright believed they had the same gods, but that's because they did. Pretty much everything about roman paganism is Greek paganism but in Latin. That's why it's sometimes refered to as Hellenistic. This doesn't extend to the other offshoots of the proto-indoeuropean religion. The romans and greeks did not, for example, view there religion as being basically the same thing as the religion of the germanics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:39:30 2014 No.5826184 >>5826174 he's just the dad

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:45:05 2014 No.5826197 File: 306 KB, 751x1134, StAugustine.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5826184 Indeed and surely a good father knows how to control his children; find favor with the father and his children will respect you, no?

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:49:55 2014 No.5826215

>>5826128
Before Christianity, you were allowed to worship any god or gods you wanted as long as you paid at least token respect to the emperor.

After Christianity, you had to worship a tribal war god or be persecuted. 2000 years latter, half the world worships YHWH while the other half is increasingly marginalized.

Julian tried to stop this. If that's being a reactionary conservative, then I support the traditional values of pluralism and religious freedom.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 19:51:18 2014 No.5826224 >>5826197 >Indeed and surely a good father knows how to control his children i said dad not patriarch

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 20:01:05 2014 No.5826264 >>5826215 >while the tiny minority of antitheists and neopagans become marginalized FTFY

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 20:01:47 2014 No.5826265
File: 932 KB, 1164x1700, augustin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5826224
If Zeus cannot even control his own children, how can I trust him to reward me for worshiping him?

Regardless of what belief system we subscribe to, all religious people expect to be rewarded for their devotions. How can I expect a god to honor my worship if he cannot even keep his own house in order?

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 20:06:10 2014 No.5826284

I don't get you guys this much. The reason people are Christians, Jews, Muslims, et cetera is because they have a very strong family and cultural tie to the religion and because they actually believe the premises of their religion itself.

None of you were actually brought up into "Hellenismos," so does that mean that you actually believe that offering your doritos into the bonfire outside your backyard will do anything? Do you actually believe in multiple gods? This seems more or less like some cultural appropriation.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 20:50:43 2014 No.5826454 >>5826174 Same reason you don't call the governor when your house is on fire.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 20:53:07 2014 No.5826458 Reminder that /pol/ is in this thread >>>/pol/39721683

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 20:53:55 2014 No.5826462

>>5826265
Zeus can keep his own house in order, but he's not going to set his fellow immortal family to work to serve you no matter how much favor you curry with him. You can't have a rich friends who knows the owner of a nice restaurant, and then expect to continually get free meals at the nice restaurant when you completely and rudely ignore the owner and call your friend every time you want to eat there. That's insulting.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 20:58:40 2014 No.5826470

>>5826284
>The reason people are Christians, Jews, Muslims, et cetera is because they have a very strong family and cultural tie to the religion and because they actually believe the premises of their religion itself.
There are plenty of Christians who don't have a very strong family background in their religion and came to it for spiritual reasons.

>None of you were actually brought up into "Hellenismos," so does that mean that you actually believe that offering your doritos into the bonfire outside your backyard will do anything?
Offering up food the goods in a burning is about sharing with them. The food itself is meaningless, it's the gesture of affections that they find charming, it's like when a babby offers his mother some of his meal. And it's very poor form to pray for things to just materialize for you, you're supposed to pray for council if you want to obtain something (the more work you do, the more the Gods are willing to held, the less work you do, the more you are just being a spoiled brat), but most generally for happiness.

>Do you actually believe in multiple gods?
Yes.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 21:23:39 2014 No.5826557
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>>5826454
The reason you don't call the governor when your house is on fire is because the governor does not have the means to put out fires. Are you implying that Zeus doesn't have the power to answer prayers? If he lacks the power to answer prayers, why worship him?

>>5826462
>he's not going to set his fellow immortal family to work to serve you no matter how much favor you curry with him

Then what is the point of worshiping him?

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 21:27:36 2014 No.5826575

>>5826557
>The reason you don't call the governor when your house is on fire is because the governor does not have the means to put out fires. Are you implying that Zeus doesn't have the power to answer prayers? If he lacks the power to answer prayers, why worship him?
He has the means to answer prayers, but he'd use another God to fulfill them just as the governor could use firemen to put out your fire.

>Then what is the point of worshiping him?
Same point there is in worshiping other Gods, but no matter how much love you gain from a particular God, they aren't going to find other Gods into your servants, and that would be a shitty thing to ask.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 21:34:16 2014 No.5826601
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>>5826575
>He has the means to answer prayers, but he'd use another God to fulfill them

Which brings me back to my original question of why worship the other gods if they are all beholden to Zeus? Find favor with Zeus and he'll tell the other gods to take care of you, correct?

>no matter how much love you gain from a particular God, they aren't going to find other Gods into your servants

But didn't you just say that Zeus will tell the other gods to fulfill your prayers?

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 21:43:07 2014 No.5826633

>>5826601
>Find favor with Zeus and he'll tell the other gods to take care of you, correct?
No, since ignoring them while wanting them to do things for you is tantamount to insulting them. Zeus will help you, but he's not going to make his kin jump through hoops for you.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 21:43:17 2014 No.5826634

>>5826458
the person that made that thread is probably the same that made this thread. it's bound to be the same person. i've been here for over 5 years and this topic has only just come up in the last week (not counting neo-paganism, hellenism is specific and different), and suddenly there are threads everywhere about it.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Sat Dec 6 21:55:50 2014 No.5826685

>>5826264
That's not a fix, that's barb. He included the non-Abrahamic theists. What do you want to make of it?

>>5826265
You go to Hades. You go to Hades and you die.
Persephone has a say in what parts you get to stay in, carpenter worshiper.

>>5826458
The rightwingers that frequent /lit/ no doubt visit /pol/
Hell, Feminister used to post there. I came from /new/

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 21:55:57 2014 No.5826687 >>5826634 >>/lit/thread/S5822159

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:03:54 2014 No.5826722
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>>5826633
>is tantamount to insulting them

How is it insulting if I'm honoring their father? Generally when you want something done, you speak to the man in charge and he delegates to his subordinates. I don't understand why the same principle doesn't apply to the gods.

>Zeus will help you, but he's not going to make his kin jump through hoops for you

So I could devote myself completely to Zeus but he would still abandon me if I don't also worship his kin? This polytheism stuff sounds like a real headache, I'll just stick with the One True God.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:06:06 2014 No.5826732

>>5826634
Yeah, it's the same guy for the most part. I've been seeing the same few other people in these threads too. It wouldn't be quites as obvious if they didn't post the exact same images every time they got the chance and crosslink back and forth between /pol/ and /lit/.

If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say it's probably one guy legitimately interested, for whatever reason, in "Hellenismos" and other people hopping on the bandwagon because they think it'll make whatever Christians they think are here butthurt, and everyone else doing the same thing against them because they like to make fun of edgy "pagans".

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:11:43 2014 No.5826757 >>5826722 Daiy reminder that your god is a 3 headed schizophrenic. Also, no matter how much favor you curry with the father, piss off the holy ghost, and you're fucked.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:13:09 2014 No.5826763

>>5826722
>How is it insulting if I'm honoring their father?
Because you're treating them like your personal shoeshines instead of lords. Honoring their father while ignoring and not thanking them is not honoring them,.

>So I could devote myself completely to Zeus but he would still abandon me if I don't also worship his kin?
No, he's just not going to have them do things for you. Zeus covers a lot of things specifically, such as suppliants and correcting an injustice (although jurisprudence is Athena' realm), but he doesn't heard the other Gods to do things for you.

> This polytheism stuff sounds like a real headache, I'll just stick with the One True God.
Yeah, it does kind of demand a lot of actual effort and study on your part rather than just proclaiming yourself as a follower. It's certainly no where near as easy as Christianity can be.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE Sat Dec 6 22:22:25 2014 No.5826787 >>5826722 >I'll just stick with the One True God. >Who does nothing for me either I can't take you seriously.

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:22:28 2014 No.5826788
File: 39 KB, 387x544, St Thomas Aquinas.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5826763
>Yeah, it does kind of demand a lot of actual effort and study on your part

>"why do you believe zeus is real"
>i dunno lol just seems right

>"why do you believe Abraham's God is real"
>here's a multi-volume several thousand page manuscript detailing reasons, objections, counter-objections, deductive and inductive reasoning, critical/logical thought, and in case you don't believe in holy scripture or haven't read it, the arguments don't even rely on it to prove that he exists

Yeah, if I ever decide to take a religion seriously, it's probably going to be Christianity before some bored undergrad's "interpretation" of an ancient pagan religion he's never had any actual contact with.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:25:39 2014 No.5826800 >>5826788 Christianity is basically just prescriptivsm. All actual reason and logic in Christianity is imitation of the Greeks, who had plenty of spiritual philosophy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:30:25 2014 No.5826824 File: 397 KB, 905x1600, >not Hermes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5826800 You really wanna talk about imitation m8?

Anonymous Sat Dec 6 22:45:24 2014 No.5826917

>>5826824
It might also be noted that the Greeks didn't see themselves as worshiping separate Gods from the Egyptians, but the same Gods, whereas Christians call Hellenists heathens.

I also wasn't contrasting the Greek Gods as superior to the Egyptian Gods, whereas you were suggesting that Christianity is founded in rationalism unlike Hellenismos. Well, the Bible does not make any rational arguments. Rational arguments for Christianity arouse from Christians imitating Greek philosophers, who often discussed theology rationally, so your point is particularly bad.

Anyway, it was Herodotus' position Greece important its Gods from Egypt, but scholars today mostly disagree with that.

kitty !kitty/EnNg Sat Dec 6 23:15:25 2014 No.5827080

>>5824819
many more people knew latin than greek because latin used to be the international language

btw i read that dante didn't know greek and there weren't translations of 'iliad' and 'odyssey' to latin, the more so to italian (well, actually ilias latina existed but it's an extremely short extract and he didn't read it anyway) so he used aeneid and other latin works only and thought of homer as of one of the great poets never reading his works.

>>5826470
>the more work you do, the more the Gods are willing to held, the less work you do, the more you are just being a spoiled brat

it reminds me the stone soup tale

>>	Anonymous Sat Dec 6 23:40:08 2014 No.5827210 >>5827080 In heaven?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 7 01:09:53 2014 No.5827605 >>5826458 kek, previous thread was more butthurt. >>>/pol/39700573

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 7 01:31:42 2014 No.5827650 >>5827605 >most literate board is pagan >most blue collar board is christian >its 500 AD all over again

Anonymous Sun Dec 7 01:53:49 2014 No.5827710

>>5827650
Christianity gained support among the nobility in Northern Europe faster than it did among the peasantry. The nobles saw it as an easy way to gain power over their pagan rivals, while the peasants saw little reason to change their way of life until it was forced upon them violently.

What started as a slave religion in north Africa, became a master religion in Europe.

Also consider now that Catholicism degrades into a pseudo paganism in south america, where people use saints and angels as a way to covertly practice ancestor worship.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 7 02:17:01 2014 No.5827764 >>5827710 In the civilized eastern roman empire, the intellectuals remained pagan up until late 6th century though

Anonymous Sun Dec 7 02:40:13 2014 No.5827806

>>5800487
That's because he/she has no idea what paganism actually is.

I had a friend who was a tantric buddhist (dude was intense, he rolls with a gang of white crust punks now razing a warpath on the west coast now), who would frequently say that the only surviving piece of paganism was preserved in books written by monks based on early Christian accounts. This recent revival of paganism is the work of German romantic nationalism -- it's fake.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 7 02:48:32 2014 No.5827819 >>5827806 the paganism of 1st AD differed a lot from paganism of 4th century AD. All religions change, the pagan claim of unchanged religion is absurd but you cant discard a religion and boil it down to "germanic nationalism"

Anonymous Sun Dec 7 02:53:06 2014 No.5827832

>>5827819
He does have a point about German nationalism though. A lot of what people think of as "norse" is heavily influenced by Catholicism. And neo-pagan religions are usually watered down and forced to conform to christian expectations of what a religion should be.

I won't say that paganism is completely dead just because of that though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 7 05:56:27 2014 No.5827916 >>5827819 How different was the paganism of the 1st century to the other?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 7 06:08:44 2014 No.5827941 You guys are all so fucking stupid. >not following Ahura Mazda Read The Gathas ya cunts Good words, good thoughts, good deeds

Anonymous Sun Dec 7 06:50:41 2014 No.5828011

>>5827806
There's a considerable difference between wicca-wasn't-edgy-enough-for-me/I'm-pagan-because-Christianity-is-Jewish-and-I'm-a-nazi reconstructionist pagans and pagans who try very earnestly to limit themselves to what little source material exists and don't fill the remaining holes for anyone but themselves.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 7 13:52:11 2014 No.5828888 >>5827916 A lot more Roman emperors, for one thing.

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/lit/ - Literature