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/lit/ - Literature

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5765951 No.5765951 [Reply] [Original]

>tfw determinism

>> No.5765972

Determinisn vs free will is irrelevant to everything. You find the answer and literally nothing changes. Everything is the way it is. The way it's always been.

>> No.5765983

>>5765972
With that said, anyone who actually believes in free will is a tard. The whole idea is nonsensical. Your consciousness is either bound by physical laws, cause and effect, or it is random. Either way you don't have free will.

>> No.5765994

>>5765983
>breaking news: NEET 4chan user solves thousand years old philosophical question in two lines

>> No.5766001

>don't have free will
>still feel like I have free will in almost every way

meh. works for me.

>> No.5766006

>>5765983
>physical laws
no
> cause and effect
fiction
>random
thus no determinism, things just are

>> No.5766010

>>5765994
Who cares how long the discussion has been going on? The answer is easy once you take away archaic belief systems.

>> No.5766011

>>5765994
Shocking, really.
OP, brother, you have opened my eyes. I can't wait to see what I'm going to say next!

>> No.5766014

>>5765983
just because there are laws governing the boundaries of my actions doesn't mean i can't still choose actions and make them myself. there's a law of gravity, doesn't mean i won't jump. laws of science might tell me where or when I'll land but those are "laws" that just describe an action I've already chosen to take

>> No.5766024

>>5765951
Don't quantum physics heavily imply that determinism is false?

>> No.5766042

>>5765951
>tfw Compatibilism
"Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills."

>> No.5766048

>>5766024
Even if that's true everything is going to happen as it will. There's no way to change the future.

>> No.5766049

>>5766024
Yeah when you apply misunderstood microscopic behavior to macroscopic behavior in a metaphorical way, write a novel yclept "How to become free in 10 quantic steps" and live in an appartment with grass on the roof.

>> No.5766057

>>5766014
>there's a law of gravity, doesn't mean i won't jump

nigga wat

Are you actually serious? We're talking about the minute workings of your brain, the firing of individual neurons, being the result of cause and effect. Your consciousness being driven like a leaf in the wind.

>> No.5766067

>>>5766024
See
>>5765983
>...or it is random. Either way you don't have free will.

>> No.5766068

>>5766049
And a rainwater collector; you redistribute the water to the whole neighborhood to grow "very-organic" vegetables.

>> No.5766185

>>5766048
Sure thing, but it wouldn't be determined

>>5766049
Christ, I didn't mean to imply quantum mysticism, cut back your anger.

>>5766067
I'm aware of the distinction between not having free will and the universe not having a determinded outcome

>> No.5766195

Anon, I think that the answer doest not really matters. The point here is how do you deal with your existence, and how do you take conscience of your possibilities and limitions.

>> No.5766201

>>5766195
Agreed, but I for one am still curious

>> No.5766203

>>5765951
>determinism
IS FALSE.
I have proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tKncAdlHQ
You live in a society which wants to avoid all responsibility, and is constantly shifting blame. See: Patriarchy, white quilt, big government, corruption...
Easiest way for _you_ not to be responsible is to be a nihilist/fatalist or a determinist.

>> No.5766211

I'm mighty fucking determined to leave at least one cummy sock on this earth.

>> No.5766250
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5766250

>there are materialists who are so ideologically inconsistent that they think that the physical world and causality take a break to allow them to have free will

>> No.5766259

>>5766001
That's pretty much what Dennett said. We don't have free will in the proper sense, but we have a reasonable facsimile that's good enough for all of our intents and purposes.

>> No.5766316

>>5766250
Digital theory is far more plausible, both to explain a platonic world, free will, and even potentially a religious one [note that all these are occamized or hume'd]. It also seems to apply to real events more accurately.

>> No.5766385

>>5766316
Woops; they might not be occamized or hume'd. They can be found as "necessary" parts on explaining this world. A quantum computer, a quantum mind..

>> No.5766408

>>5766385
no

>> No.5766441

Define "free will".

Checkmate.

>> No.5766461

>>5766441
Do you not know what free will means or are you trying to sidetrack us with unnecessary semantics?

>> No.5766579

>>5765951
whats so bad about it

>>5766014
>just because there are laws governing the boundaries of my actions doesn't mean i can't still choose actions
actually that's what it means

>> No.5766584

>>5766441
Free within boundaries. Like you are free to choose whether to play video games or read a book, but you are not free to fly away or change what has happened. Things don't follow your mind, you follow your mind.

>> No.5766595

>>5766408
>might not be
>no
Broaden your view, or the only intellectually honest opinion you may have is solipsism (due to Descartes proving that you exist).

>> No.5766597

>>5765951
Babby's first deep thought, mate, but free will exists. Check the Stoics.

>> No.5766605

>>5766584
But you will always choose what is best according to a list of values, because your mind is rational.

>> No.5766614
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5766614

>>5766584
>Free within boundaries.
do you guys ever read what you post?

>> No.5766694

>>5766614
Positive freedoms, not negative.

>> No.5766717

Free will does not exist, but will does, so who cares?

>> No.5766724

>>5766605
It is not rational, it is logical.

>> No.5766729

>>5766717
Free to do decisions, both rational and irrational (you do stupid shit sometimes, and use fallacies to justify them; we all do), both good and evil. Suicide, for example, can not be evolutionary trait.

>> No.5766743

>>5766729
>Suicide, for example, can not be evolutionary trait.
Yes, it is a malfunction. Not everything that happens in our boddy is due to it being the best possible thing from an evolutionariy standpoint.

Anyway, how is this a reply to what I posted? Is "determinism" equal with "evolutionairy" now? Just because something is not an evolutionairy trait doesn't mean it is not deterministic.

>> No.5766827

>>5766743
Suicide is not a malfunction, at least always. It is a choice. For example, we can ask the question: does it matter what I do or am? If we get the answer: "no", we might be motivated to cease our existence. There are no malfunctions in evolution, only those who continue a bit longer.

Determinism is false, however. Quantum physics are at the very least, random [within an accurate threshold].
Evolution is usually used as the "ultimate explanation" behind all our thoughts, decisions, motives and everything else. It does not, however, apply to all cases of our behavior.

Schrödinger's cat is type of freedom. Not the one we like, but the one we most certainly have. We might also have freedom of choice [within accurate threshold].

>> No.5766855

>>5766827
I know, "malfunction" should have been put in quotations.

Anyway, I never used evolution to explain aways free will. I just said we only have will, not free will. When we make what you call a "choice", this is a result of the chemicaly that are active in our brain. Be it of evolutionairy advantage or not doesn't matter.

And yeah, quantum mechanics include randomness, our macroscopic world however (for some reason) does not. Will exists, but it is not free. And freedom exists, but it is not ours.

>> No.5766870
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5766870

>tfw philosophy leaves everything as it is

>> No.5766877

>>5766870
Why did anyone ever think philosophy has an ambition beyong explaining?

>> No.5766882

>>5766877
And why do I keep typing g instead of d at the end of some words?

>> No.5766892

>>5766024

>I don't understand quantum physics outside of new age bullshit

>> No.5766893

>>5766877

I don't know, ask OP.

>> No.5766909

>>5766892
>quantum physics are deterministic
Pleb. Go grab that Nobel prize since you understand it so well.

>> No.5766914

>>5766909

there are determined probabilities

>> No.5766930

I could go into why determinism is false, but really I don't care if any of you believe it, because it serves your lifestyle - it allows you to continue being lazy and ineffectual. part of me would like to help everyone and try to foster a culture where everyone is high functioning, but many will always choose to be weak, and if that's who they want to be, I don't want them dragging me down

have a nice life certain that you can never improve on the way things seem to be for you right now. what a bitch philosophy.


everyone who buys into this idea are either: losers who want to put the blame on outside forces and take no responsibility for themselves, or, people who are in some way easily comfortable or set up somehow due to circumstance and secretly want things to remain the way they are where they can manage it and know their - and everyone elses' - role

>> No.5766934

>>5766930
nice opinions, you really changed my mind

>> No.5766945

>>5766934
as if the determinists in here are proving anything with facts

and I directly stated there that I'm not interested in changing people like yours' minds. you fucking disgust me.

>> No.5766951

>>5766930
People are lazy because others respect their "free choice" to be lazy.

>> No.5766953

>>5766827
>It is a choice.
jesus christ /lit/
do you choose to cough and have a fever when you have a bad cold?

>> No.5766956

>>5766024
no. the behaviors and properties of quantumn particles don't tell us about the behaviors and properties of everything else. thats like trying to use thermodynamics equations to explain economics

the object of study is different

>> No.5766971

>>5766930
>I could go into why determinism is false, but really I don't care if any of you believe it
k thanks listen can i get my 15 seconds i wasted to read your post?

>> No.5767011

>>5766914
>determined probabilities

Can somebody explain this concept to me? How can a system still be deterministic if the relative chances are deterministic but the outcome isn't?

>> No.5767041

Wouldn't the fact that we can question whether or not we have free will prove that we have free will?

If everything was predetermined and we're leading a mechanical existence then we wouldn't question it and we would simply operate as a machine.

>> No.5767048

>>5766971
what does it matter to you? there's nothing you can or will do about it, right?

>> No.5767051

>>5767041
>Wouldn't the fact that we can question whether or not we have free will prove that we have free will?
No, why would it prove that at all? Why wouldn't a machine be able to know it is a machine?

>> No.5767062

>tfw philosophy is trivial

>> No.5767066

>>5767041
The illusion of free-will is so strong that it doesn't even matter that we don't have free will

>> No.5767076
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5767076

>>5767011

Matter isn't corpuscular at the quantum level. It instead exists as a probability distribution. You have to think of probability distrubutions as fundamental instead of points. They get buffeted about and affected by forces as points do, though the math may be a little different.

>> No.5767078

>>5766014
No, dude. You cant fly, is the point.

More to the point is that whether or not you try to fly isnt up to you, and you dont even exist in the sense you think you do.

>> No.5767087

>>5767048
i have your ip and i'm sending drones to your house
have fun

>> No.5767219

>>5767078
Sandbox game is a pretty good example. You can do what you want, within the set of rules. Only certain plays are rewarded, however.

>> No.5767225

>>5766827
>It is a choice.
There is no such thing as a choice. Every single thought is determined by stimuli, past experience, and the chemical makeup of your brain. The illusion of free will is a byproduct of a brain capable of abstract reasoning.
>muh quantum physics
The exact mechanics of how macroscopic Newtonian physics emerges from quantum physics is still very vague. Newtonian physics are deterministic and still as precise as ever, physical sciences from the past ~4000 years were not instantly invalidated by the double slit. Besides, even if quantum physics does introduce some unforeseen probabilistic behaviour in the macroscopic universe, that still in no way leaves room for the concept of free will. Randomness is not a choice.

>> No.5767243
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5767243

TFW HARD DETERMINISM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G0Vy8C_sNg

Fortune is fickle, enjoy her wiley favours.

>> No.5767272

>>5767219
But everything you do is a result of a causal chain going on in your forehead. Where does this "freedom" come from?

>> No.5767349

>>5767272
Is it? Prove it.
Positive claims need to be proven.
>>5767272
You mean the barriers are set in front of me, and I must make a decision.
For example; I have urges to help others, to help myself and to take advantage of the situation. I have cultural boundaries, which favor different options. I pick. I still pick. I do it with my will, however free it is.
>If my will is illusion, being wrong about this is irrelevant.

>> No.5767360

>>5767349
I'll add to it, that my will/consciousness is the only thing that is certain. You are doubting the fundamentals of the world in your hope to be rid of responsibility, or your despair given to you by false beliefs.

>> No.5767366

>>5767225
>>muh quantum physics
>The exact mechanics of how macroscopic Newtonian physics emerges from quantum physics is still very vague. Newtonian physics are deterministic and still as precise as ever, physical sciences from the past ~4000 years were not instantly invalidated by the double slit. Besides, even if quantum physics does introduce some unforeseen probabilistic behaviour in the macroscopic universe, that still in no way leaves room for the concept of free will. Randomness is not a choice.

I'm pretty sure i proved that newtonian mechanics is derivable from quantum mechanics in a 5 minute pedagogical exercise in a sophomore level modern physics course.

>> No.5767394

>>5767366
by 'proved' you mean 'preached and persuaded'

>> No.5767419

>>5767011

It's just it's so difficult to calculate at that level (see infinity series). You can calculate with precision the position, or the velocity, but not both at the same time, so there is probabilities of positions vs velocities.

It's not that it's muh randomness as new age bullshit portraits

>> No.5767422

>>5766827

>Quantum physics are at the very least, random [within an accurate threshold].

HAHAHAHA, please kill yourself

>> No.5767442
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5767442

>>5766011
>I can't wait to see what I'm going to say next!

>> No.5767457
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5767457

>>5767243

ebin

Anyway, god must be a troll if hard determinism exists; to torment our fellow 4chan users with such paradox

>> No.5767726

>>5767422
>electrons are in a fixed position before measurement
this shit again...

>> No.5767762

>>5766953
>depression is a disease
>depression is the only reason for suicide
Dude. A nihilistic determinist might just want to skip Life: The movie.

>> No.5767788

>>5767762
>depression is the only reason for suicide
there are other mental diseases that can cause it.

>> No.5767821

>>5767788
One dies anyway. If the premise of one's world view is that the world is a movie (ie. is a determinist), it is rational not to bother with it, if the quality is bad.

>> No.5767833

>>5767821
>a determinist will do what's rational
>he will choose to do so
>in a deterministic world
aside from that you're just jumping to retarded conclusions. people know movies are fake and their outcome is fixated and they still watch them. Some people like watching the same movie multiple times. Why would it be "rational" for them not to do it?

>> No.5767847

>>5767833
The world is not deterministic. The person perceives the world as such, however, and makes the seemingly rational decision. If you want to label determinism as mental disorder, go ahead. It is still just a world view.

>> No.5768014

>>5766605
>gotta choose between studying and masturbating all day
>my brain tells me to study
>I masturbate all day

There

>> No.5768298

c-can someone help me hold all of these pre-determined feelings pls?

>> No.5768520

b-bump

>> No.5768550

*tips fedora*

>> No.5768571 [DELETED] 

1. False dichotomy.
2. It does not matter anyway, nothing changes.
3. God is real, so true creativity exists (there is an infinity in which anything can arise), so there is free-will. (But again, false dichotomy)

You will die and leave your body. You will understand the force of God. You will realize that the will of God's is yours.

>> No.5768573

1. False dichotomy.
2. It does not matter anyway, nothing changes.
3. God is real, so true creativity exists (there is an infinity in which anything can arise), so there is free-will. (But again, false dichotomy)

You will die and leave your body. You will understand the force of God. You will realize that the will of God is yours.

>> No.5768589

>tfw reading Gravity's Rainbow made you believe determinism exists.
Why Pynchon

>> No.5768665

>>5768573
>God
Holy shit go back to /pol/, adults are talking.

>> No.5768678

>>5768550
Truly a well reasoned argument!

>> No.5768718

>>5768665
cool condescending rejection of a widely accepted truth

>> No.5768728
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5768728

>>5768718
>of a widely accepted truth

>> No.5768729

>>5768718
>Believing truth is knowable or absolute.
It's like you're retarded.
inb4 ad hominem
>Anything absolute can't be observed within itself.

>> No.5768749

>>5768729
>believing that i believe truth is knowable or absolute
i was just saying that he rejected a very plausible concept in a very weak fashion. "adults are talking"

>"Holy shit go back to /pol/, adults are talking." is a better argument than "cool condescending rejection of a widely accepted truth"

>> No.5768764

>>5768729
>i can't detect sarcasm

>> No.5768767

determinism makes no sense to me

as in, if I take it to be true, then I was already determined to have taken it to be true, and so free-will was never an option or possible, so there was no choice or dichotomy to begin with, making assertions of determinism akin to something like an alarm clock beeping

and these words and my reaction to it is determined, and all everything I type, so I would consider that not really typing at all, basically I'm just a machine takakakakka on a keyboard, and it was determined that I would think that and then type this sentence, and this one, and this one, and I can't choose not to type this sentence, because choice is not possible when everything you do is determined, in fact you aren't really acting or doing anything at all, you're just an automaton even your thoughts about being an automatom are automated this isn't even a post or a conversation

>> No.5768789

>>5768767
It doesn't make sense because it's wrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism
You're still making choices, they're just predetermined. It's not depressing, life is still the same (exciting and beautiful) because time is linear and you have to do things to uncover the mysteries of the universe

>> No.5768797
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5768797

Free will is nonsensical vanity resultant from the faulty conception of the self. Free from what? Causality? Absurd.

What is more, even if one's will somehow operated outside of causal relations, that would make it random, and thus anything but yours.

The significance is moot however, what good is comparing reality within a system to another that doesn't exist? This is like considering the ramifications of being unable to fly. Nothing to be upset about, nothing in truth.

>> No.5768803

>>5768789
its not wrong
you're not making choices because you're not you
you are the sum of you

this is why people obsess over determinism
it is dehumanizing

>> No.5768814

>>5768803
>it is dehumanizing

you make those choices because you are you, does not really sound dehumanizing

>> No.5768815

>>5768803
Do not underestimate existence and the universe. You may think this is a stupid post, but trust me when I say: use reason sparingly and embrace intuition.

>> No.5768818

>>5768814
>>5768815
>trust me I feel this to be true

lol

>> No.5768821

>>5768818
it's hyperbole
why is everyone on this board so fucking pedantic

>> No.5768829

>>5768814
the point was a you does not exist
there is no deliberation
there isn't even preference
simply collections of impulses and conditionings reaching equilibrium

>> No.5769392

>>5767821
>it is rational not to bother with it, if the quality is bad.
Determinism means "everything could be known about the future if we just had enough knowledge in the presence", it does not mean "we already know exactly how the future will turn out automatically". Why would a determinist suddenly know if the end of the movie is bad or good?

>> No.5771075

>>5767847
>The world is not deterministic
Source: a non determinist

>> No.5771092

>>5765951
>people get existential angst from knowing that their actions are interconnected with a large framework of causes and effects
>waaaah i can't produce absolutely independent causes
Really, I wonder what kind of universe you thought you were living in before you discovered that things happen because of causes.

>> No.5771118

>>5766024

Not really, everything above the quantum level seems to be entirely deterministic - though complex. Quantum indeterminacies don't appear to scale up at all.

At most, the quantum world behaves in a probabilistic manner. This lends no support to any assertion of the existence of free will.

The only way free will could exist is for consciousness to be non-physical.

>> No.5771135

>>5766203
you seem to be in "not even gonna respond to this idiot" status so i'll be your angel

you have no idea what OP is talking about.

>> No.5771152

>>5766605
>because your mind is rational
i stopped trying to reach this Übermensch status of yours when i turned 16 and you throw it out there like it applies to everyone.

>rational
no

>> No.5771172
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5771172

>>5768718
>widely accepted truth
my sides

>> No.5771177

>>5767011

I'll apologise in advance since I'm going to try to use a deterministic system to describe a fundamentally probabilistic one, but here goes...

Think of the throw of a dice, where all sides have equal probability of landing. That's one example where the probability of the possible outcomes is determined, but the outcome is not. Now you could manufacture a die where some of the sides were heavier, thus skewing the probability distribution of the result.

The above might give an intuition of what's meant by determined probabilities, but in reality any throw of the dice is in fact deterministic.