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/lit/ - Literature

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5750845 No.5750845 [Reply] [Original]

Let's try for a little depth /lit/. How about we focus on one text that quite a few people will be familiar with (and is usually discussed in a more general, non-critical sense) and pick out strains of thought, inconsistencies, interesting remarks left unexplored, etc...?

How about Nicomachean Ethics.

What do you all make of the other self justification of friendship? Bascially, the noblest of friendships are in which one loves the other for themselves rather than for mere pleasure of base utility. Yet, Aristotle in trying to justify why a happy man would need friends succumbs to both as isolated foundations for justifications and fails to make the critical bridge between the two (the love of the other for themselves) clear or strong.

So the good man loves perceiving his being because existence is naturally good and pleasant for such a man. We tend to make friends with people like us, therefore the good man is able to gain more pleasure in his perceiving of his own being through scrutinizing the being of his friend.

And since virtue lies in activity and the highest of virtues lies in giving, we would want more friends (but not too many because that would limit the goodness of their potential being(s) and the extent to which are activities can be of the highest).

So basically, Aristotle provides us with a justification through pleasure which seems to be self-reflexive rather than truly contemplative of the Other and a justification through utility which is in itself not enough for a noble friendship.

It seems like Aristotle's conception of the Other as friend is paradoxical in that we should love a friend for himself yet in Aristotle's justification of friendship, we love them for their likeness to ourselves.

There is a lot to read into this topic but feel free to bring up other tensions or questions.

>> No.5751452

>>5750845
zeno says good friends tend to resemble one another

>> No.5751493

>>5750845

>Long, serious, well thought out post
>3 hours for a response

Fuck you /lit/

>> No.5751502

I'm actually reading this for a class right now so I'm going to bump your post, read the text tomorrow, and then come back and respond.

>> No.5751504

>>5751493
sorry dude but i havent read nich. ethics since sophomore year of college, i think

>> No.5751564

>>5750845
My philosophy teacher (who I'm pretty sure wanted to be a mentor figure to me ) gave me that exact book to read just before I dropped out of college.

I still have the book but haven't read it.

I have a frequent daydream where I've finished it and I mail it back to him with a handwritten letter of my thoughts on the book and an update on what I've been doing with my life since I left.

Then I remember that I would have nothing to say anyway and I feel sad.

Damn /lit/ I didn't come here for these feels yo

>> No.5751581
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5751581

>>5750845

Loving the friend for themselves does not preclude the reason for you loving them is that they are like you.

Also the gaining from them is more of a complimentary thing rather than a reciprocal thing.

Just my thoughts. Kind of stoned so I'm not sure how comprehensive my answer was.

>> No.5751586

>>5751493
There are different levels of Greek awareness here on /lit/. A lot of people read Homer, some read the Tragedians, Historians and Plato's Republic.Even less people proceeded to read everything from Plato. Aristotle is in the end of the spectrum. Which is a shame since Nico. Ethics, Politics, Poetics, Metaphysics, Categories seem all worthy reading. I think the popular belief that "almost everything aristotle said is wrong" make people avoid him. Similar thing happens with Aquinas.

>> No.5751588

I have no idea what I was thinking but I gave this book to my gf. She never opened it once, she rather reads Spengler. Fucking pleb broad...

>> No.5751598
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5751598

>>5751586

Dude was Alexander the Great's teacher; he therefore must of work out a lot of shit if he was in anyway responsible for his student.

>> No.5752128

>>5750845
I think Aristotle kept in mind that philosophy can be a friend too.
And although a kid will love his parent, they are rarely become friendly on such a level that the parent honestly can see it kid as a friend

>> No.5752175

>>5751586
It's understandable considering that Aristotle's writings have none of the joy of plato's characters or the simplicity of some of his contemporaries. Even Nicomachean Ethics, which is probably his most engaging, needs to just be pushed through in certain places because of some of its argumentative flaws and dry writing.

Plus, the only way to really engage with Aristotle is "deconstruct" his pieces. Reading them closely, finding tensions, wondering why the hell he just through out an interesting topic of inquiry only to abandon and dismiss it because it doesn't fall into his system.

Aristotle is someone you are always reading, not someone you read then collect the badge for.

>> No.5752212

>>5751586
>almost everything aristotle said is wrong" make people avoid him. Similar thing happens with Aquinas.

People do this? You'd think there'd be certain amounts of respect for these historical philosophers, but I guess they're not Epictetus, so they aren't "cool." Were we supposed to throw everything pre-Hegelian?

>> No.5752224

true story: when i read the nichomachaen ethics for i think the third time i was put in a trance-like state for exactly one month (beginning on april 1) in which i felt triumphant, elated, superior to all the human forces concerns and the vicissitudes of chance. women were magnetically drawn to me. it was astrange month, but one day it all came crashing down, and i had this sever kind of anxiety attack and was devastated for several months afterwords

>> No.5752230

also op: the only way to understand aristotle is to always take him at his word, and not question or overly analyze him too much

>> No.5752233

>>5750845
I don't think it's pleasure, but happiness. Happiness being almost a verb. It's something you do, and loving the Other is one of those things that brings happiness. Greek happiness not being pleasure at all.

So it's more an appeal to that, I think.

>> No.5752250

please stop capitalizing the word other

>> No.5752318

>>5752250
fuck off

>> No.5752490

>>5752318
no