/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5735302]

why does Marxism end up being a culture destroyer?
In russia, mongolia, romania, china, veitnam whenever communism appeared the people would begin to destroy their own art and religion.

So sad

[Anonymous No.5735315]

usually happens in revolutions (france)

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.5735331]

>>5735302
>veitnam
How are you unaware of the war the US fought there?

[Anonymous No.5735346]

>>5735331

and?

[Anonymous No.5735633]

>>5735302

it's inherent to marxism to destroy art, hierarchies, traditions, everything of value to a human

[Anonymous No.5735654]

>>5735633
No. It's inherent to liberate art and everything of value to a human

back to
>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.5735688]

If by "destroying culture" you mean replacing bourgeois decadence with proletarian prowess; then guilty as charged

[Anonymous No.5735714]

the chinese went crazy destroying and stopping all Art.

it's really sad to see marxism in action.

[Anonymous No.5735727]

>>5735654
I'm pretty sure at this point these posts are anti-marxist trolls. There is no way they can just be totally oblivious going through life thinking mentioning that a board exists constitutes a response for months on end. They can't be that fucking stupid, can they?

[Anonymous No.5735742]

>>5735654
>No. It's inherent to liberate art and everything of value to a human
just like how they blew up the ancient cathedrals in france
right
i suppose the stones were liberated from the weight of the room
fuck off you retard

[Anonymous No.5735747]

Picasso was a communist. Marxism aims to destroy bourgeoisie culture, not art.

[Anonymous No.5735748]

>What is the Moscow Ballet
>Who are Shostakovitch, Eisenstein, Pasternak, Bulgakov, etc.
>What is socialist realism

I understand many bourgeois apologists are braindead brainwashed idiots but this isn't even trying.

[Anonymous No.5735750]

>>5735727
The OP does sound like one of those idiotic 'muh Cultural Marxism"-morons from /pol/, though.

[Anonymous No.5735755]

>>5735750
>Being this fucking illiterate

Wow leave this board forever

[Anonymous No.5735759]

>>5735747
>Picasso was a communist
more proof its a horrible movement
>>5735747
>Marxism aims to destroy bourgeoisie culture, not art.
which just so happends to produce the best art

there would be no art if it werent for bourgeoisie commissioners

[Anonymous No.5735760]

>>5735750
>>5735727

your bigoted views are not welcome here, we believe in freedom of speech, literature and rationalism.

[Anonymous No.5735764]

Why don't you love the triumph of our bourgeois arts, citizen?

[Anonymous No.5735769]

>>5735714
butthurt confucian detected

[Anonymous No.5735771]

marxists saw all of history as that of class struggle. they saw all material conditions as having emerged as a result of that class struggle. they wanted to great a single-class world free of hierarchy, so of course they wanted to destroy all the monuments and arts that they saw as emblematic of class hierarchy.

marxists just need a little aesthetic philosophy to temper that inclination of theirs.

[Anonymous No.5735776]

He probably means literal destruction, not subversion. They would literally go out and destroy art, religious and cultural centers, and ban people from making art ...

[Anonymous No.5735782]

>>5735302
yes all those russian peasants who lived with absolutely no art or culture destroyed their nothing and ruined their nothing nothing

[Anonymous No.5735791]

>>5735302
>doesn't know about soviet achievements in the arts
>or the unmatched succeses of most socialist states in eliminating literacy
>or the cultural decline within global capitalism
Not gonna defend the barbarism of censorship and shitty forced styles like socialist realism, but come the fuck on.

[Anonymous No.5735792]

>>5735782
you wouldnt happen to have autism perchance

[Anonymous No.5735793]

>>5735782

religious art and priests were smashed.

[Anonymous No.5735798]

>>5735760
>Trying this autistically hard
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.5735801]

>>5735302
How is communism and religion incompatible? The dang Amish are hardworking folks that forbid the pursuit of art and music. They would fit nicely in the communist paradigm.

[Anonymous No.5735804]

>>5735302

Communism is a top down system of control. Naturally anything against the state is seen as a threat and will be subjugated.

I know, I lived in a communist state. Their propaganda is strong and they care about "cultural influences" enough to censor everything and everyone

[Anonymous No.5735814]

>>5735759
>there would be no art if it werent for bourgeoisie commissioners

You know that is true, because we still live in the 14th Century.

Oh wait. We don't.

Let's just ignore the fact that Van Gogh, Tesla, and Mussorgsky were not wealthy. Polaris, The Rites of Spring, the filmography of Kurosawa, and all of the cultural triumphs of the 20th century were outside of the influence of bourgeois patronage. The bourgeois are no longer the shakers and movers of the cultural world, aside from excretions such as fashion and celebrity 'culture'.

[Anonymous No.5735820]

>>5735793
and nothing of value was lost

[Anonymous No.5735826]

>>5735801
They aren't. But God is Historical Necessity

[Anonymous No.5735827]

>>5735820

tips_fedora.exe

[Anonymous No.5735833]

>>5735804
lolwtf

[Anonymous No.5735839]

>>5735804
Why shouldn't they censor 'cultural influences'? Don't you think people like Mossadegh and Salvador Allende would have done a little better if they managed to rein in the pestiferous influence of the Western bourgeois?

[Anonymous No.5735840]

>>5735801
But the communist paradigm as you call it is in no way opposed to the pursuit of arts and music, but instead seeks to replace the expression of bourgeois ideals with that of proletarian ideals.

[Anonymous No.5735842]

>>5735827
MAXIMUM LOGIC! OPPONENT DEFEATED!

[Anonymous No.5735847]

>>5735804
>I know, I lived in a communist state.

This is almost becoming funny

[Anonymous No.5735863]

>>5735847

communism has many phases before it reaches maximum euphoria Utopia mode

those phases require strong State intervention.

[Anonymous No.5735866]

>>5735764
>mfw the people who are right-wing and support capitalism are the same people most likely to be critical of art like this, even though it's just a reflection of the capitalist society in which it was produced
>mfw humanity's "best" art was created under either a system of patronage or socialism

[Anonymous No.5735873]

>>5735793
Priests can find God with a hammer and sickle. I've seen reverends driving away from Sunday service in Mercedes. Grrr.

[Anonymous No.5735874]

>>5735863
No they don't, the only justification for that has always been that its necessary or backwards shitholes like Russia.

Mixed economy Socialism is the proper route to the lower phase of Communist society, and requires no more State intervention than any other broadly Keynesian economic system.

[Anonymous No.5735879]

>>5735302
it destroys bourgeois decadence
eat shit, american scum

[Anonymous No.5735890]

>>5735874
>Mixed economy Socialism is the proper route to the lower phase of Communist society, and requires no more State intervention than any other broadly Keynesian economic system.

Keynesianism has a lot of state intervention.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.5735892]

>>5735346
And how it was fought by capitalists to secure cash flow and feed the war machine. They killed a sitting president for it.

[Anonymous No.5735909]

>>5735892

Communists seek to further their ideology and war-machine as well

Do you into Russian history?

[Anonymous No.5735920]

This is good holy art, citizens!

What do you mean Jesus isn't human looking, the background doesn't make any sense and the angels are a complete waste of space? And the whole purpose of it was to show the great wealth the church had at the expense of everyone else?

[Anonymous No.5735925]

>>5735791
>>or the unmatched succeses of most socialist states in eliminating literacy
kek

[Anonymous No.5735929]

>>5735839
>Don't you think people like Mossadegh and Salvador Allende would have done a little better if they managed to rein in the pestiferous influence of the Western bourgeois?
Why would you believe that. Literally every single communist country has been a catastrophic failure. Why would Iran or Chile magically be successful?

[Anonymous No.5735935]

>>5735920
INTO THE FLAMES

[Anonymous No.5735937]

>>5735909
>Soviet Union fought a few wars during the revolution and invaded Afghanistan
These were the only offensive actions, and the invasion of Afghanistan was precipitated by an illegal overthrow of a Communist government.

It is nowhere near the scale of what Capitalist government and their army pawns did throughout the 20th Century. And that isn't even beginning to touch on the influence of covert agencies like the CIA

[Anonymous No.5735943]

>>5735920
Agreed. Make place for real art, you bourgeois shitlords.

[Anonymous No.5735947]

>>5735920
TIIIP AS FUCK LOL EUPHORA DAWKINS!

[Anonymous No.5735961]

>>5735937
>It is nowhere near the scale of what Capitalist government and their army pawns did throughout the 20th Century
But didn't the end justify the means?

Where would you rather live, North Korea or South Korea? Chile, or Cuba?

[Anonymous No.5735963]

>>5735929
>tfw no cybernated economy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

[Anonymous No.5735964]

>>5735929
You misunderstand, like the child you are.

The Soviet Union and Vietnam raised standard of living- this is an indisputable fact.

But the point I was trying to make is that the West undermined communist government, causing instability and untold deaths for numerous countries. One of the methods for undermining countries was 'free speech' or the CIA/MI6/government pawns du jour whispering in people's ears and changing politics for the capitalists' advantage.

[Anonymous No.5735968]

>>5735890
Hardly, especially compared to things like the Lange model or Soviet model.

We would see no more state intervention in a transition to a fully Socialized economy than we currently do in any first world country.

[Anonymous No.5735969]

>>5735943
LOL I KNOW
HE'S SO EUPHORIC
JUST LIKE THE GUY IN MY PICTURE

JUST EBIN x-D

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.5735976]

>>5735909
Communist=/=Russian=/=Vietnamese

Step down Patton

>>5735920
Christian porn

[Anonymous No.5735977]

>>5735968
>Hardly, especially compared to things like the Lange model or Soviet model.

well ya, because further away from communism.

[Anonymous No.5735985]

>>5735961
South Korea was a military dictatorship that had a planned Stalinist economy till the 1980s
http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/park.htm

[Anonymous No.5735987]

>>5735961
I would rather live in a country where I wasn't being blockaded and had my government's every move threatened and censured so my bourgeois masters could make a little more profit. Woefully unfair comparison.

Do your bourgeois masters let you sit down when you suck their cock or do they make you kneel?

[Anonymous No.5735988]

>>5735302
>why does Marxism end up being a culture destroyer?

because its basically SJW run amok.

everything in reality is a "power system" to them...except the one's they erect.

[Anonymous No.5736000]

>>5735302
uwotm8

All of those countries didn't destroy their culture or art, faggot. In fact, they all were against many kinds of modern art (like suprematism) which according to many conservatives and /bol/ is shit.

[Anonymous No.5736007]

>>5735947
I feel so silly right now. Consider the argument won, fair anon.

[Anonymous No.5736009]

>>5735892
To be fair, both north and south VN wanted him dead. The guy was a tyrant. The famous picture of the monk's self-immolation was in protest to the corrupt president and his goons.

[Anonymous No.5736010]

>>5736000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution

Millions of people were persecuted in the violent struggles that ensued across the country, and suffered a wide range of abuses including public humiliation, arbitrary imprisonment, torture, sustained harassment, and seizure of property. A large segment of the population was forcibly displaced, most notably the transfer of urban youth to rural regions during the Down to the Countryside Movement. Historical relics and artifacts were destroyed. Cultural and religious sites were ransacked.

[Anonymous No.5736014]

>>5735988

this
holy
shit

[Anonymous No.5736016]

Marxism is the same as Christianity, both try to wipe out the noble culture and replace it with an oppressive slave aesthetic, the same way Christianity destroyed the cultures and religions of Europen 2000 years ago Marxism almost destroyed the cultures and religions of Europe and Asia 100 years ago. Could have been another 1000 year dark age but luckily America was there to beat back the global slave revolt!

[Anonymous No.5736020]

>>5736016

Hitler called Christianity the pre-cursor to Bolshevism

[Anonymous No.5736021]

>>5735963
I'm pretty sure people still use computers when managing the economy. You don't need socialism to do that.

>>5735964
>like the child you are.
Very mature

>The Soviet Union and Vietnam raised standard of living- this is an indisputable fact
Sure, but standards of living were raised everywhere in the world during the 20th century. It wasn't exclusive to socialist countries. Also, considering the fact that non-socialist countries often raised their standards of living faster, we can ask ourselves whether the standards of living wouldn't have risen faster had russia and vietnam not undergone a revolution.

Also, I'm not even taking into account the millions of innocents who perished in collectivization programs/repression.

>But the point I was trying to make is that the West undermined communist government, causing instability and untold deaths for numerous countries. One of the methods for undermining countries was 'free speech' or the CIA/MI6/government pawns du jour whispering in people's ears and changing politics for the capitalists' advantage.
Sure, but it was for the best.

Pinochet's regime killed about 3000 people. About 1000 people were shot during Stalin's great purge - every single day.

[Anonymous No.5736026]

>>5735302
Are you retarded or something?
The only place you could say that is China and Mongolia. However, Russia, Vietnam, Cuba, etc. cared a lot about their culture, even the old one considered as bourgeouis.

Also, in Vietnam it was the anti-communists who wanted to destroy traditional vietnamese culture. They went full templar knight on Buddhist monks.

Same in Cuba. The pro-US government gave a shit about artists and museum. It was Castro who supported them.

[Anonymous No.5736031]

>>5736020
Hitler was wiser than the Jewish media give him credit for

[Anonymous No.5736036]

>>5736026

there's nothing redeemable about the failed experiment of marxist philosophy, fyi

[Anonymous No.5736037]

>>5735988
>>5736014
top lel

[Anonymous No.5736038]

I don't understand how Communist art got a foothold against such masterful, artful compositions.

Maybe we should give up, comrades.

[Anonymous No.5736041]

>>5735985
Rofl no. It had a semi-planned economy, but to say it was stalinist is a bit of a stretch.

>>5735987
>I would rather live in a country where I wasn't being blockaded and had my government's every move threatened and censured so my bourgeois masters could make a little more profit. Woefully unfair comparison.
It's better to have your government's every move threatened, rather than have YOUR every move threatened and censored.

>Do your bourgeois masters let you sit down when you suck their cock or do they make you kneel?
I'm pretty sure I'm what you would call a bourgeois m8. Upper middle class and all.

[Anonymous No.5736044]

>>5736010
Just because the maoists did that does that means marxism is against culture and art?

If you still think that, then almost all ideologies are against culture and art.

[Anonymous No.5736045]

>>5736009
The president appointed by the Christian friendly government that was supported by the US.

[Anonymous No.5736048]

>>5736010
>implying eradicating feudal reactionary ideology is a bad thing
I bet you have a Free Tibet t-shirt, right?

[Anonymous No.5736051]

>>5736036
So? OP is asking about culture and art, nothing more.

[Anonymous No.5736054]

>>5736048
tibetans are a bunch of pussies living under the yoke of an Asian version of Christianity, what is Buddhism but a nihilistic Christianity?

[Anonymous No.5736064]

>marxists shitting up the thread
>supporting the destruction of art/religion because they're oppressive

[Anonymous No.5736067]

>>5736051
once communism takes hold in a country, other than some kitch posters and a couple bombastic nationalistic history movies, the art is dead within a generation.

[Anonymous No.5736070]

>>5736048
>>5736054
>communist empathy

[Anonymous No.5736075]

>>5736064
slave religion is oppressive and marxism is a slave religion

[Anonymous No.5736077]

>>5736054

>tfw an atheist far leftist communism apologist in your class raises his hand to tell the professor that tibetans were liberated from buddhist theocracy by the more enlightened, secular left wing chinese
>tfw a verbal smack down from the professor ensues

glorious

[Anonymous No.5736078]

>>5736021
>Sure, but standards of living were raised everywhere in the world during the 20th century. It wasn't exclusive to socialist countries. Also, considering the fact that non-socialist countries often raised their standards of living faster, we can ask ourselves whether the standards of living wouldn't have risen faster had russia and vietnam not undergone a revolution.

Uh, no. Standards of living fell throughout Africa. And Russia is still recovering from the oligarchs' and capitalists' greed. Standard of living fell when the bourgeois gained power. So that point is completely bunk.

>Also, I'm not even taking into account the millions of innocents who perished in collectivization programs/repression.

So I won't take into account the genocide of North America, Africa, parts of India and Australia, so we can call it even. Hell, you even have quite a lot of good old fashioned Christianity to justify that capital acquisition. And you have a goofy definition of innocent.

>blah blah blah for the best

...you understand that some countries are more populated than others, yes?

[Anonymous No.5736079]

Communism has never really existed, only in Karl Marx's mind. Smarter people correct me if needed

[Anonymous No.5736081]

>>5736045
The US cringed at his religious intolerance.

[Anonymous No.5736082]

>>5736064
>ignoring the fact that the USSR, Cuba, Vietnam cared about art and even religion
>but the chinese did all wrong! Marxism is shit lel

[Anonymous No.5736085]

>>5736070
I'm not a communist, I'm opposed to all resentment ideologies be they christianity, buddhism, communism, identity politics, etc.

[Anonymous No.5736090]

>>5736064
>implying

[Anonymous No.5736093]

>>5736067
Do you have a proof appart from China doing that?

Art flowered in most communist countries. In fact, I would say it's the only thing they did right.

[Anonymous No.5736101]

>>5736067
>rap music and violent, pornographic America 'cinema' is better than Shostakovitch and Tarkovsky

My sides have ascended to the astral plane.

My sides

[Anonymous No.5736102]

>>5736093
>art flowed

Yeah, if you consider piles shitty bronze statues of lenin "flowering" then ok

[Anonymous No.5736103]

>>5736082

USSR persecuted orthodoxy at home all day, and they fucked up the mongols too, killed 18 thousand of their buddhist monks and destroyed their monasteries, art, historical artifacts.

Do you even read history? Or are you just going off gut feelings

[Anonymous No.5736111]

>>5735302
>whenever communism appeared the people would begin to destroy their own art and religion

The stated goal of communism is to bring about global atheism.

[Anonymous No.5736113]

>>5736102
Kek. Do you know something about art in the times of the USSR? Seems not. If you aren't a troll then at least read wikipedia.

[Anonymous No.5736119]

>>5736101
>communist true believer promoting icon of a dying bourgeois artf form as a sign of communisms artistic force while denouncing popular "people's music" that flourished in the free world

oh the irony is just too much sir

[Anonymous No.5736122]

>>5736101
Oh, you mean the shostakovich who was in fear for his life when Stalin didn't like his opera, and the Tarkovsky who fled the USSR?

[Anonymous No.5736124]

>>5736113
the art was good for the first couple years while there were still people who had lived under freedom but it died with them, get a clue

[Anonymous No.5736138]

There is no where to go after achieving Juche Humanics in arts and culture

Read this timeless classic by comrade Kim Jong-Il:
http://www.naenara.com.kp/en/book/download.php?3+3035

>Proper inheritance and development of the heritage of national culture is an important issue in the building of Juche-oriented art and literature. The art and literature of any era cannot be created from scratch. It can be developed to meet the aspirations and demands of a nation only when it bases itself on the heritage of the national culture handed down by the preceding generations, and properly inherits its progressive and popular contents and form.
>Inheriting the national culture in a proper way is all the more urgent in our era. The solid collective of the people, the main unit of social life, is the country and nation, and the existence and development of the masses is inseparably linked with the destiny of the country and nation. Today, when the struggle for realizing independence is being waged more fiercely than ever before, with the national State as the basic unit, the issue of the nation has become a fundamental issue that decides the victory of the revolution and construction and the destiny of the masses. The stand towards nation finds typical expression in the stand towards the heritage of national culture. A nihilistic attitude to that heritage begets worship of great powers, which leads the nation to ruin. The feeling of dignity and pride in the nation’s heritage is an important expression of national self-respect and the nation-first principle. Only when we treasure the heritage of our national culture and inherit it properly can we develop art and literature in a Juche-oriented way as suited to the aspirations of our nation and preserve its character steadfastly.

[Anonymous No.5736144]

>>5736103
>USSR
It was Stalin (and in some occasions Lenin in Kazajstan) the one who did all that shit, don't you know? The rest of leaders of the USSR opposed Stalin's stupid laws about that. The so called state atheism was dumped for a more tolerant-to-religio- policy. That said, they did expelled many orthodox priests.

I really hope you aren't this kind of retards who think this place is some sort of battleground where everyone who says something good or bad about something means he is an extremists or anti-something.

[Anonymous No.5736155]

>>5736078
>Uh, no. Standards of living fell throughout Africa.
Well, that's because africans were simply not prepared to govern themselves.

That being said, the biggest catastrophes of post-colonial africa happened in communist countries : the DERG of Ethiopia, the communist juntas of Angola, Mugabe, etc...

>inb4 muh lumumba
>inb4 muh thomas sankara
Therer is literally no reason to believe that they would've been any different from other communist tyrants.

>So I won't take into account the genocide of North America, Africa, parts of India and Australia, so we can call it even. Hell, you even have quite a lot of good old fashioned Christianity to justify that capital acquisition. And you have a goofy definition of innocent.
Lol, not even comparable kiddo.

It's not the white man's fault that North Americans had a shitty immune system. Or are you seriously claiming that a few hundred spaniards killed tens of millions of indians all over the continent simultaneously?

As for Africa, apart from the congo western intervention has been rather positive. Same for India and Australia.

>...you understand that some countries are more populated than others, yes?
I do.

My comparison stays valid though. Because throughout the 19th century, the oh so oppressive and tyrannical imperial russian government killed around 5k people for political crimes. About a week's work under uncle Joe.

[Anonymous No.5736173]

>>5736124
You really know nothing about arts in the USSR: Just read the sources in wikipedia. If you still want to stay ignorant in this topic because according to you being good in something like arts or culture means a whole ideology is good then pic related.

[Anonymous No.5736193]

>>5735302
>why does [history] end up being a culture destroyer?
Because societies change and develop on a material basis. Class conflict results in the overthrow of old orthodoxies for new ones, which are used by the ruling class to encode subservience to their ideology into the lower classes, and this continues forever if the population remains unconscious. Culture as you know it doesn't actually exist yet. History only begins with the achievement of communist society.

[Anonymous No.5736197]

>>5736173
It's funny that you'd defend soviet arts, especially on a literature board, considering the thousands of writers which were shot or deported to the gulag.

[Anonymous No.5736204]

>>5736193
Okay, this has got to be a troll. Nobody is this retarded.

[Anonymous No.5736208]

So did any of you comrades attend the historic dialogue between between brother cornel west and chairman bob avakian in harlem yesterday?

[Anonymous No.5736212]

>>5735302
well aren't most ideologies like that?
Most of them consider certain kind of art shit that should be purged. For example Hitler who considered modern art during that time degenerate.
Or the motherfucking Aristoteles who dismissed many plays as not following many rules.
And the king of France just before the first revolution.

[Anonymous No.5736216]

>>5736173
> some guy who skimmed the wikipedia on 1920s bolshevik art wants to act like he knows something

show me some of this marvelous ussr art comrade im waiting, post 1930 if you please

[Anonymous No.5736221]

>>5736193
history ends with communism you silly noob, history began when humans left primitive communism and goes full circle and ends once humans get to future communism, if you're going to try to be a big campus commie at least read some fucking marx, you dipshit

[Anonymous No.5736227]

>>5736197
I'm not defending the shit the communists did in that time, I'm just saying that they didn't destroy art like Hitler did with "degenerate" art.
>>5736216
Kek. Are you paranoid or something? Do you really believe I'm a communist because I said some facts?

Also, I said wikipedia because it seems you never read books.

[Anonymous No.5736231]

>>5736227
dude, art in the soviet union was shit, deal with it

[Anonymous No.5736232]

>>5736227
>I'm just saying that they didn't destroy art like Hitler did with "degenerate" art.
Lmao, of course they did you fucking moron!

And even worse than Hitler, they destroyed the artist along with the art!

[Anonymous No.5736239]

>>5736227
if hitler destroyed so much art why are jews constantly filing lawsuits to get "looted" art back?

[Anonymous No.5736254]

>>5736144
>It was Stalin (and in some occasions Lenin in Kazajstan) the one who did all that shit, don't you know?

no surprise since Marx identfied religion as a system of control that needs to be obliterated. They were just doing what communism preached. :^)

[Anonymous No.5736255]

>>5736231
>was shit
yep. You are a troll.
>>5736232
OP is talking about marxism being a cultural destroyer. So because some writers were sent to gulags that means they want to destroy all art?
Seems you are moving away from what the original topic OP was talking about.
>>5736239
Destoyed doesn't necessary means throwing paintings to the fire. They did looted art works.

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5736256]

>>5736197

>considering the thousands of writers which were shot or deported to the gulag

why not 'millions of writers'
'hundreds', probably not far from 'dozens'

>>5736216
really, read a wiki as you were suggested
even bulgakov wrote his most known book in 30s

[Anonymous No.5736265]

>>5736239

In fact they recently caught a Jew who had over 1.2 billion worth of "stolen nazi" art in his apartment

[Anonymous No.5736268]

>>5736256
i'm talking about visual art, fuckwit. and wow, one guy wrote a novel in the 30s, how many novels came out in 1930s america?

[Anonymous No.5736275]

>>5736265
the jews bought and stockpiled european art as investments and hedges against inflation and panicks, there was one jew banker in new york who had every foot of the walls in his four seasons suit covered in oil paintings, not because he gave a shit about art but just as a store of value, i say confiscating investments from traitors is fair play, the communists certainly confiscated a lot of property

[Anonymous No.5736280]

Kids, class is over.

I had enough weeaboos today who made flamewars and attracted retards.

[Anonymous No.5736282]

>responding to /pol/ trolls

[Anonymous No.5736288]

>>5735331
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Vietnam

This shit happened before the U.S. stepped in the war in Vietnam.

I'm sure you will find another excuse, though, or outright justify it because "muh bourgeoisie"

[Anonymous No.5736292]

>>5736275

ya but this guy had stolen art. he didn't pay shit. can't be bothered to google him

[Anonymous No.5736294]

>>5736268
lel. What's wrong with you retard? Are you a troll or something?

[Anonymous No.5736298]

>>5736255
>OP is talking about marxism being a cultural destroyer. So because some writers were sent to gulags that means they want to destroy all art?
No. The persecution of writers under the soviet regime is just one of the facets of the artistic genocide Russia underwent under communism.

It's a pity really, considering how dominant Russia had become in the fields of music and literature during the last days of the Russian Empire. All that artistic tradition washed away by a cabal of bloodthirsty marxists.

>>5736256
Thousands is not that much of a stretch.

[Anonymous No.5736299]

>>5735302
Because, clearly, in all of these places, there has been a significant portion of the population that is disenfranchised by and angry at and critical of that art and religion, and/or the systems of power that they promote and embody.

This is not a tough one, or even a particularly partisan conclusion to come to.

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5736305]

>>5736268
>how many novels came out in 1930s america

non shitty ones? i probably cannot name a single one
they waited for nabokov to get something worthy to be read

[Anonymous No.5736308]

>>5736292
>>5736275

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2486251/1bn-haul-art-Picasso-Renoir-Matisse-squalid-Munich-flat.html

he and his father were jews.

[Anonymous No.5736309]

>>5735920
yeah, how pompous and evil! my toilets express humankind in such civilized and cultured ways!

[Anonymous No.5736313]

>>5736305
come on kitty

come on

dont be ridiculous

[Anonymous No.5736315]

>>5736299
so what, i'm sure in your country right now there are a bunch of disenfranchised assholes with shitty taste, does that mean we should make them dictator and smash all the art they don't approve of?

[Anonymous No.5736320]

>>5735937
>And that isn't even beginning to touch on the influence of covert agencies like the CIA

Yeah, because the KGB spent the whole Cold War playing chess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitrokhin_Archive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures#Guerrillas

They were just smarter in that they usually used proxies, instead of going directly into the fray.

[Anonymous No.5736324]

>>5736305
The funny thing is that Bulgakov's book you keep mentionning (which I assume is The Master and Margarita) was censored in the soviet union.

[Anonymous No.5736325]

>>5736298
>No. The persecution of writers under the soviet regime is just one of the facets of the artistic genocide Russia underwent under communism.
Still it doesn't mean that marxism is against culture and arts. You are not talking about all the art made during the communists ruled.
>It's a pity really, considering how dominant Russia had become in the fields of music and literature during the last days of the Russian Empire

Wow you really believe that? You think it's a fact or something?

[Anonymous No.5736326]

>>5735302
Because Marxism leads to the worship of a totalitarian government

[Anonymous No.5736328]

>>5736221
>history ends with communism
Sure, this history, the one we're living in right now. Communism alone allows the real flourishing of humanity. Is that easy enough to understand or does it need to be broken down?

[Anonymous No.5736329]

>>5736309
Carravagio is well into the renaissance, which anyone with a clue knows means the rebirth of the classic pre-christian culture, christianity stunted european culture for a millennia, that is just a fact

[Anonymous No.5736333]

>>5736328
dude, if class conflict is the engine of history then how the hell is there going to be history in communism? let me guess this is your first semester away from home and the young marxists club had some cute chicks in it so you joined and now pretend to know stuff

[Anonymous No.5736337]

>>5736315
Of course not. It's a non-partisan explanation, not a defense of communism. As I said in the post.

But the fact is these things are connected to the social and economic organization and have to be understood in those terms.

[Cool thread OP No.5736338]

>this thread
My sides. Why /lit/ gets trolled so easy?

[Anonymous No.5736341]

>>5736288
>How dare they end the pointless practice of a small minority of people owning land! How dare they let people collectively own the land they work on and not get robbed by some guy and his family!
>Classes are ethnic groups it's genocide!

[Anonymous No.5736344]

>>5736333
>dude, if class conflict is the engine of history then how the hell is there going to be history in communism? let me guess this is your first semester away from home and the young marxists club had some cute chicks in it so you joined and now pretend to know stuff

[Anonymous No.5736346]

The thing about communism is that under it everything is subjected to the interests of the Party.

If the Party wants to destroy art, art will be destroyed. If the Party wants good war being done for the purposes of propaganda, it will be done.

The same is true for sciences. The Party wants to send the men into space? They will mobilize resources and knowledge to make it possible. The Party thinks modern genetics is detrimental to it's interests? Where's Trofim Lysenko when we needs it?

Of course, for intellectuals and bureaucrats (or wannabe intellectuals and bureaucrats), which is the kind of people who usually post on /lit/, this is wonderful. They are basically given absolute control over society. This explains the infatuation of the western intelligentsia with marxism and what they're going to shameful lenghts to defend it's legacy. It gives them power

[Anonymous No.5736350]

>>5736325
>Still it doesn't mean that marxism is against culture and arts. You are not talking about all the art made during the communists ruled.
Jesus, are you clinically retarded or something? I just said that literature was one of the many facets of culture which got destroyed, which implies that the other facets of culture also got destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Soviet_Union

>Wow you really believe that? You think it's a fact or something?

Of course I believe that, as anyone who has a brain. The cultural renaissance that Imperial Russia was experiencing during its last days was absolutely phenomenal.

[Anonymous No.5736352]

Ultra Communism is the only antidote to Moslem lunacy.

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5736353]

>>5736313
really
what 'multiple novels' of the ~similar importance in the other countries were written in usa in 30s? and that's considering usa's leading power
'chatcher..' is written in 50s, nabokov worked in 50-60s, 'mockingbird..' is written in 60s, unless you mean pop stuff like lovecraft and howard, i just dunno

[Anonymous No.5736355]

>>5736337
everyone knows christianity and marxism are just the ideology of a slave revolt and the slave hates and resents the masters and their refined culture and has an ingrained asceticism due to being denied any sensuality and so hates beauty as well, which leads to ... production of shitty art

[Anonymous No.5736364]

>>5736341
>pointless practice of a small minority of people owning land

You mean like having all the land in the hands of the State and the nomenklatura? Because this is the end result of communist land reform.

By the way, most people killed weren't even landowners.

[Anonymous No.5736365]

>>5736353
Jesus Christ, your command of english is atrocious.

>chatcher

[Anonymous No.5736366]

>>5736353
nice high school reading list, your opinion clearly matters

[Anonymous No.5736369]

>>5736350
Are you retarded?
You said:
>No. The persecution of writers under the soviet regime is just one of the facets of the artistic genocide Russia underwent under communism.

Kek. You don't even read what you write.
>The cultural renaissance that Imperial Russia was experiencing during its last days was absolutely phenomenal.
Lmao. Where are you from, those youth conservatives websites?
Do you really believe that? Russian culture wasn't even dominant in the west, not even in Russia there was some sort of art boom. It did happened before the rule of Nicholas II. During his reign art was decaying because he gave a shit about that.

[Anonymous No.5736373]

>>5736341
i do believe vico addressed this in his "new science", the peasant class turns to the strongest family for protection and voluntarily submits to them but over generations forgets this and one day begins to demand to be the ruling class

[Anonymous No.5736385]

>>5736333.
>if class conflict is the engine of history then how the hell is there going to be history in communism?
Do.. do you think space-time ceases in communism?

[Anonymous No.5736390]

>>5736385
>using layman's definition of history on /lit/

why don't you go play on a reddit for the history channel, pleb

[Anonymous No.5736395]

>>5736364
>You mean like having all the land in the hands of the State and the nomenklatura?
If the state is socialist that is preferable, but the best thing is for the workers of the land to use it collectively.
>By the way, most people killed weren't even landowners.
Makes sense since they're always a tiny minority.

[Anonymous No.5736396]

question: why do people who clearly know nothing about marxism waste time defending marxism?

[Anonymous No.5736398]

>>5736369
>Are you retarded?
>You said:
>>No. The persecution of writers under the soviet regime is just one of the facets of the artistic genocide Russia underwent under communism.
>Kek. You don't even read what you write.
Yes. I'll write it again since you don't seem to understand even the simplest of sentences.

The persecution of writers under the soviet regime is just one of the facets of the artistic genocide Russia underwent under communism. One of the facets, i.e. one of many facets russian arts (painting, film, music, opera, theatre) which underwent cultural genocide.

Do you understand know, or do I have to break it down for you even more?

>Lmao. Where are you from, those youth conservatives websites?
>Do you really believe that? Russian culture wasn't even dominant in the west, not even in Russia there was some sort of art boom. It did happened before the rule of Nicholas II. During his reign art was decaying because he gave a shit about that.

Yes I really do believe that.

[Anonymous No.5736399]

>Marxists actually think they are any different from all the other mass movements of history

Its a testament to the horrible apparatus that is the Communist governmental structure that even fundamental Islam has been able to maintain states for longer periods of time.

[Anonymous No.5736401]

>>5736333
we have no way of knowing

i mean, it makes sense if you think about it - if our knowledge is essentially a function of our historical position, IE if knowledge is in part historical in character, how would we ever be able to know in advance what history would look like after a dramatic change in the economic conditions that determine society and historical development?

[Anonymous No.5736403]

>>5736390
>there are people on /lit/ that are this retarded

[Anonymous No.5736405]

>>5736079
Capitalism has never existed, only in Karl Marx's mind. If we are going to accept only the ideal as existence, then we have no "existing" structure at all.

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5736406]

wait, i forgot hemingway
he wrote 1 notable novel in 30s, not of his best ones and relatively unknown though, 'the short happy life of francis macomber'

'master...' wasn't the only notable novel written in ussr in 30s either

[Anonymous No.5736410]

>>5736369
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballets_Russes

[Anonymous No.5736412]

>>5736398
>Yes I really do believe that.
Believeing doesn't make something real.
>The persecution of writers under the soviet regime is just one of the facets of the artistic genocide Russia underwent under communism. One of the facets, i.e. one of many facets russian arts (painting, film, music, opera, theatre) which underwent cultural genocide.

I posted:
>Still it doesn't mean that marxism is against culture and arts. You are not talking about all the art made during the communists ruled.
And then you said that "lel retard".

Seems you don't even read nor think about what you post.

[Anonymous No.5736413]

>>5736406
There was this little known guy named Steinbeck. Might have heard of him.

[Anonymous No.5736417]

>>5735748
>all artists reacting to the tyranny of Stalinism

[Anonymous No.5736419]

>>5736406
Never heard of Faulkner? Why are you on /lit/ again?

[Anonymous No.5736420]

>>5735302
>leave for an hour
>come back
>this retarded shit thread has exploded

/lit/ is shit

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5736422]

>>5736365
calm down, that;'s typo, i rarely proofread what i type

>>5736366
i hope you understand that stuff outside of the highschool reading list is the stuff which people outside of usa rarely care of

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5736427]

>>5736413
>>5736419
-> >>5736422

that's /lit/, not /american lit/
also i read some faulkner

[Anonymous No.5736430]

>>5736398
Generally speaking, people are allowed to determine their own beliefs and when they do so en mass it's just called change, not genocide.

[Anonymous No.5736435]

>>5736410
>The company never performed in Russia
>was made by an businessman

[Anonymous No.5736439]

>>5735892
so what? this is complete non-sequitur to the OP

[Anonymous No.5736443]

>>5736412
Ok, I think I've understood what you mean. The problem is that you phrased it so poorly (due to your dull mind and poor grasp of the english language) that I understood something else.

By "during the communists ruled" (btw it should be "during communist rule") you mean every communist governments, i.e. not just the soviet union, is that right?

Well, I'll be happy to let you know that in every single country which underwent communist rule there was a significant destruction of the traditionnal arts and culture.

>Believeing doesn't make something real.
Sure, but believing something which is real (like the earth is a sphere) is better than believing something which is not real (like the earth is flat, or like soviet arts were any good)

[Anonymous No.5736445]

>>5735302
Not just marxism. Most revolutions destroy certain kinds of art works because they want to "make a new civilization".

[Anonymous No.5736446]

>>5736333
Look, kid, why don't you go through this first.
http://vimeo.com/24151227

[Anonymous No.5736447]

>>5736420
>Stay here the whole time
>Turns out /lit/ isn't a commie echo chamber
>Vague but dramatic bitchy post about nothing
>Never stop being a pointless mad faggot

I fucking hate communists

[Anonymous No.5736454]

>>5736445
the american revolution didn't and that is because america is awesome, deal with it

[Anonymous No.5736455]

>>5736405
>Capitalism has never existed, only in Karl Marx's mind.

[Anonymous No.5736456]

>>5735937
>doesn't even mention the covert actions of the Soviets, rivaling those of the CIA
he does it for free

[Anonymous No.5736457]

>>5736430
Guys like Anatoly Lunacharsky and Andrei Zhdanov weren't really keen on "allowing people to determine their own beliefs".

[Anonymous No.5736458]

>>5736430
I'm sure the ukrainian farmers were aboslutely thrilled by all the change going on around them.

[Anonymous No.5736461]

>>5736435
Well, it's just an example of an area where Russian culture was dominant in the West before the Revolution, since you said that never happened.

[Anonymous No.5736463]

>>5736405
>Capitalism has never existed, only in Karl Marx's mind.

actually Communism is a Capitalism, the exploitation just takes place in reverse.

They are both basically the same

[Anonymous No.5736464]

>>5736446
"we have never been able to produce enough material goods for everyone" who decides what is "enough for everyone"? the fact that a "major" philosopher could think something so stupid is disturbing

[Anonymous No.5736466]

>>5736443
>Ok, I think I've understood what you mean. The problem is that you phrased it so poorly (due to your dull mind and poor grasp of the english language) that I understood something else.

By "during the communists ruled" (btw it should be "during communist rule") you mean every communist governments, i.e. not just the soviet union, is that right?

What is this, /pol/ or /tv/?

>or like soviet arts were any good

Are you from that shitty website Conservative Youth or something? Are you some sort of art critic who knows so much that can easily say soviet art is shit?
What the fuck is this, /mu/? Where everyone just say "this is shit"?

[Anonymous No.5736468]

>>5736464
you are an idiot

[Anonymous No.5736469]

>>5736456
>doesn't even mention the covert actions of the Soviets, rivaling those of the CIA

[Anonymous No.5736470]

>>5736463
that stems from marx's biggest error, he compared apples and oranges i.e. agriculture vs. capitalism instead of agriculture vs. industrial production...

[Anonymous No.5736472]

>>5736466
You didn't answer the question, faggot.

[Anonymous No.5736473]

>>5736470
Precisely how does he do this? Precisely what is the theoretical difference? Expand on this, unless you're just an idiot making contentless one-line driveby criticisms of an ideology you don't actually understand.

[Anonymous No.5736474]

>>5736468
so, uh, when do we produce enough for "everybody"? considering the world gdp is orders of magnitude larger than marx's day by his standard we are producing "enough" yet clearly it is "not enough"

[Anonymous No.5736475]

>>5736461
In that case, that ballet was mostly composed of moder ballet, which is shit according to many faggots here.

[Anonymous No.5736476]

>>5736405
>Capitalism has never existed, only in Karl Marx's mind.
>a society where labour force is freely sold in the market to capital owners has never existed
tell me more

[Anonymous No.5736477]

>>5736469
See >>5736320

[Anonymous No.5736480]

>>5736472
now I need to write in basic english so you can understand what I posted?

[Anonymous No.5736486]

>>5736473
do you not see how agriculture vs. capitalism are totally different? if a farmer takes out a loan to open a farm speculating on sales of future crops is he not participating in capitalism because he didn't use a factory?

[Anonymous No.5736489]

>>5736480
You didn't answer the question, you fucking idiot. Or if your idea of answering a question is "hurr durr are u from [insert board]" then you're an irrecuperable moron who deserves to be forcefully sterilized for the good of humanity, although I'd much rather you were dragged down a deserted alley by a group of men in brown shirts and killed with a bullet behind the neck.

[Anonymous No.5736493]

>tired of this shitposting made by marxist and reactionary kids
>go to have a drink
>return
>this shit is getting bumped

Go fuck you fucking faggots. Where is the goddamn mod where he's needed?

[Anonymous No.5736494]

>>5736466
trying graduating high school, going to college somewhere and taking some art history classes

[Anonymous No.5736495]

>>5736486
I can see why someone might think that capitalism and industry are distinct categories. That's not what I'm criticizing you for. I'm criticizing you for a complete lack of depth or rigor in your argument.

Tell me how Marx does this and why it's apparently crucial to his theory, and demonstrate to me how the distinction bears intellectual fruit. Or, really, do anything other than make a one-line post about how [famous thinker] was actually totally wrong.

[Anonymous No.5736497]

>>5736493
You already made a similar post and I mocked you for it. Shut the fuck up, yo marxist little bitch.

[Anonymous No.5736499]

>>5736476
>communism has never existed
> a society where the people "own the means of production" has never existed
Tell me more. The people are not able to truly sell their labor freely. Just as in all Communist states, the people didn't truly own the means of production. This is a silly game to play.

[Anonymous No.5736500]

>>5736489
>although I'd much rather you were dragged down a deserted alley by a group of men in brown shirts and killed with a bullet behind the neck.
And you say I have bad english skills?
Also, nice memes.
>>5736494
Most academicians consider soviet cinema one of the best. I suggest you to read a book.

[Anonymous No.5736504]

>>5736500
>And you say I have bad english skills?
What's wrong with my sentence? English is not my native language, btw.

[Anonymous No.5736505]

>>5736497
kek. I'm not even marxist. Back to your quality board called /pol/.

[Anonymous No.5736507]

>>5736499
How are people not able to sell their labour freely?
>a society where the people "own the means of production" has never existed
Has it?

[Anonymous No.5736512]

>>5736457
And yet Russians very freely joined the communist movement to the point where they seized power and toppled the old regime. Perhaps Zhdanov was a mutant with mind control ability, it's hard to say.

>>5736458
And half of Ukrainians don't believe the last famine they faced was either the worst famine they'd ever face nor as bad as Western press was manipulated into believing or a deliberate act against Ukrainians (for reasons).
>in before OH YEAH GONNA DENY THE HOLOCAUST TOO HUH?!? lunacy when there's no relation between a very well recorded systematic slaughter of human beings that the Nazi did and famines occurring in pre-industrial societies that people struggle to pin even a small majority of non-natural causes to

[Anonymous No.5736514]

>>5736305
are really this fucking dumb? my god

[Anonymous No.5736519]

>>5736512
There's literally more proof of the holodomor than there is proof of homicidal gas chambers

[Anonymous No.5736521]

>>5735302
>she sees your penis

[Anonymous No.5736525]

>>5736499
>>communism has never existed
>>a society where the people "own the means of production" has never existed
But... it hasn't.

[Anonymous No.5736529]

>>5736525
I guess you can count Kalahari bushmen and other ape-like civilizations to be "communism".

But yeah, ever since humanity's IQ evolved past 60 we departed from communism.

[Anonymous No.5736533]

>>5735814
>The bourgeois are no longer the shakers and movers of the cultural world, aside from excretions such as fashion and celebrity 'culture'.
lol this is what liberal arts majors actually believe
stay deluded friend

[Anonymous No.5736537]

This thread is evidence that Marxism is shit.

[Anonymous No.5736542]

>Whenever communism appeared the people would begin to destroy their own art and religion.
You're great, OP.

[Anonymous No.5736548]

>>5735969
>all this marxist apologism
can you please grow up and realize communism is a failed system

[Anonymous No.5736551]

itt: a thread about a writer filled with people who never read him

[Anonymous No.5736554]

>>5736542

>marxism doesn't have a history of persecuting religion and art

[Anonymous No.5736555]

>>5736537
>yet another anti-commie shitthread
>yet again /lit/izens argue against the shitposters dumb opinions
>yet against shitposters get burned and cry about it

[Anonymous No.5736558]

>>5735988
completely underated post, well done sir

[Anonymous No.5736559]

>>5736551
tbf you could post this on more or less any thread on /lit/ and it'd be equally true

[Anonymous No.5736562]

>>5736533

Art under the dominion of the bourgeois is not the great art of today.

[Anonymous No.5736563]

>>5736542
>progress

[Anonymous No.5736568]

>>5736555
Do you seriously think, after reading this thread, that the pro-communist side made a single convincing argument?

[Anonymous No.5736571]

>>5736551
>marx
>worth reading
lemme tell you who knows whats up

[Anonymous No.5736576]

bros, it's the 21st century...marxism is history, waste of time to be partisan about. caring about marxism is like caring about the arian heresy or some shit, a settled conflict left gathering dust and mold in the garage of history

[Anonymous No.5736578]

Yes, Marxism involves the destruction of some amount of culture. That's not good. But if it's the only way to get to an equitable, non-exploitative society, then it's just the price we have to pay.

[Anonymous No.5736581]

>>5736555
>>yet again /lit/izens argue against the shitposters dumb opinions

/lit/ has been battling marxists for a long time, they won't leave and go back to /pol/ with their idiocy

[Anonymous No.5736584]

>>5736554
No more than the states. Having your president say that your biggest artistic out put is crap while in the cccp being an artist meant having a house and food puts the US way behind marxist Russia. It only came ahead once they dropped the pretense of communism

[Anonymous No.5736586]

>>5736571
stfu about that b*tch Hobbes

>>5736576
actually caring about the arian controversy is extremely cool and good & the girls really dig a guy who knows his arianism

[Anonymous No.5736587]

>>5736558
i just want to point out that the marxist quasi deterministic/economicist theory is the complete opposite of sjw's culturally relativistic postmodern views

[Anonymous No.5736589]

>>5736571
hobbes was too pesimistic, he makes the same error as marx in that he takes his own shitty times to be representative of history as a whole, hobbes lived in an age of civil war, naturally he came up with some queer ideas about the state and man, meanwhile everybody can by now recognize that marx mistook the birth pangs of capitalism for its death throes

[Anonymous No.5736591]

>>5736581
>couldn't even read OP
Fuck off, /pol/fag

[Anonymous No.5736592]

>>5736562
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPTusunJJjg&list=UUCr7BFZlZjSaLW4b-Sw0sxA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x9a6nhXcLU&list=UUCr7BFZlZjSaLW4b-Sw0sxA

you are completely 100% wrong
and by even suggesting otherwise proves what a drooling idealist piece of shit you are

all of the great schools of art were motivated by the burgeosie
only a braindead slithering marxist slug such as yourself would suggest otherwise

[Anonymous No.5736593]

>>5736576
>>5736586
I refuse to believe that there are two different retards IIT who spell aryan "arian", so I'm gonna have to say

>samefagging this hard

[Anonymous No.5736595]

>>5736578
art will always be endangered by marxist ideology since the guy who has to scrub toilets for a living is always going to resent the gifted artist who gets to sit around making pretty pictures for a living

[Anonymous No.5736596]

>>5736568
They will just repeat the same mistruths verbatim like nothing happened next time.

[Anonymous No.5736599]

>>5736587
you think any of these people care about the actual content of these theories?

on either side, frankly. the only thing 90% of youth today care about is that SJWs and marxists are both the people who are girls and/or boys who wear scarvs and pea coats. whether they hate those people, or want to be them / fuck them.

[Anonymous No.5736604]

>>5736593
best b trollin ngr, otherwise: kill yourself at once

[Anonymous No.5736605]

>>5736593
Oh my God

[Anonymous No.5736610]

communists are to economics as SJW are to culture.

[Anonymous No.5736611]

>>5736596
But that's all you anticommies did and all you ever do. Why do you always project your failures on everyone else? Every single time.

[Anonymous No.5736613]

>>5736599
i always found peacoats to be rather bourgeois, if u wanna look rad u need a military jacket, preferably german surplus cuz protesting israel with a german flag on your jacket ads extra edge

[Anonymous No.5736616]

>>5736611
>Why do you always project your failures on everyone else?
Rofl.

It's not like the communists at all to blame their failures on saboteurs and the bourgeois, amirite?

[Anonymous No.5736621]

>>5736616

>WE DIDN'T GO COMMUNIST ENOUGH!!! THAT'S WHY WE FAILED!!
>WE NEEDED TO GO DEEPER!!

every time

[Anonymous No.5736622]

>>5736610
I know we're all anons but i'd still feel ashamed if i posted things this retarded.

[Anonymous No.5736623]

>>5736611
0/10 go spam hyperlinks some more and invent paragraph-long ways to call your opponent "stupid". It's the paragon of discourse for you guys.

[Anonymous No.5736634]

>>5736622
It's not a dumb analogy, for a one-line with a mongolian cartoon maymay picture.

SJWs want to destroy traditional culture which they deem oppressive, in the same way that communists want to destroy the traditional economic system, which they deem oppressive.

[Anonymous No.5736635]

>>5736621
hey, that's what the muslims always say too! The Americans and Brits whipped out asses because we weren't hardcore extreme enough! we need to take it back to 700AD, once we ban everything modern we are sure to come out on top!

[Anonymous No.5736638]

>>5736587
i wouldnt think that
the sjws seem very pro-economic interventionism
especially for the cases of women and minorities

[Anonymous No.5736640]

>>5736611
>psychoanalyzing others as a way to counter argue

[Anonymous No.5736641]

>>5736616
What are you even talking about? Who mentioned saboteurs in this conversation we're having? We have these threads every day with you shitposters and your crusade against communism that are always based on terrible culturally learned preconceptions like in OP, we tell you why it's wrong, and you just ignore it while jibbering about how everyone else are the ones that pretend it never happened. Enough is enough, man. Either read up or stop thinking you can talk about it.

[Anonymous No.5736642]

>>5736634

ya their dialectic is basically the same.

[Anonymous No.5736644]

>>5736634
but SJW (at least the tranny ones) all embrace gender roles and super feminine ideal so how does that work?

[Anonymous No.5736649]

>>5736638
>>5736642
yeah, exactly. they're totally identical, as long as you ignore what they actually think and do and look at them in the most reductionist way possible. makes perfect sense to me.

[Anonymous No.5736654]

>>5736641
>we tell you why it's wrong
Except you don't. You either say things like "it's never been tried" or "you don't understand what marx really meant" or "stalin was a capitalist".

[Anonymous No.5736658]

>>5736641
That's nice you stupid faggot but it clearly doesn't work despite your brainwashing and constant whiney lies.

[Anonymous No.5736664]

>>5736649

SJW is an extension of marxism applied to the cultural field. Contributions of teh Frankfurt school.

[Anonymous No.5736665]

>>5736644
That's one of the things that makes me chuckle.

Feminists blabber on about how genders are a social construct, but trannies are supposed to be the exemplification of feminity

[Anonymous No.5736670]

Like, Marxists tend to have many of the same social views as progressives / SJWs, but for totally different reasons - Marxists would view them more as objectively incorrect and a result of capitalist society, whereas SJWs would view them as illegitimate on the basis of identity, existence, and moral relativism

And that's actually a significant difference

[Anonymous No.5736671]

>>5736664
inb4 people tell you cultural marxism isn't a real thing

[Anonymous No.5736674]

>>5736665

legit trannies don't do it ideologically, they are born with a brain issue.

trannies piss off SJW and feminists for promoting gender roles.

[Anonymous No.5736681]

>>5736644
>trans all embrace gender roles and super feminine ideal
Nice starwoman there, mate. How big is your test sample?

[Anonymous No.5736683]

>>5736664
hmmm thats an interesting point but it almost seems like it's a bunch of absurd conspiracy bullshit

you fucking dumbass faggot

[Anonymous No.5736684]

>>5736634
Your analogy doesn't hold up. His line refers to "economics", not "the traditional economic system". Marxian economics is basically post-ricardian, so it's neither a break from what at the time was orthodoxy nor was it trying to be. That line probably comes from your average retard that thinks marxist economic theory is about communism and that neoclassical economics precede marx.

>>5736638
How is that related to marxism?
>economic intervention = marxism
Educate yourself.

[Anonymous No.5736690]

Because it postulates that culture and heritage are worth nothing; teenage Marxists think all cultures are equal even though Marx and Engels were very chauvinist and supported Bismark and a German war against Russia.

[Anonymous No.5736696]

>>5736649
>what they actually think
what does that matter
theyre hypocrites at their core anyway

[Anonymous No.5736703]

>>5736684
>>economic intervention = marxism
great stuff, do you do stand up?

[Anonymous No.5736704]

>>5736684
>How is that related to marxism?
lol marxism is all about economic interventionism
i think youre the one who needs to be educated

[Anonymous No.5736707]

>>5736584
>the president's word represents the nation's entire culture

lmao no. Haven't you heard of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Museum of Natural History, Central Park, Washington DC, New England? The US loves the cultures of its ancestors, it's just a few new retards going around kissing Muslim ass.

[Anonymous No.5736708]

>>5736681
mtf transgenderism is an anti-women resentment ideology, they could never get their ideal woman so they try to become their own ideal woman; sort of like a slave or proletarian could never become the boss or the owner so they try to have a revolution and make themselves the boss via dictatorship of the proletariat...all resentment ideologies are poison, the sooner you learn this the better

[Anonymous No.5736710]

>>5736690
>Marx and Engels were very chauvinist and supported Bismark and a German war against Russia

Nope. After the Paris Commune M+E consciously abandoned whatever German chauvinism was in their writings. In the 1890's Engels was writing that the socialist revolution would come via a war between Germany and Russia that the SPD would oppose.

[Anonymous No.5736717]

>>5736708
What's your test sample?

[Anonymous No.5736721]

>>5736683

it probably does sound like it until you research it further and realize it's true

[Anonymous No.5736722]

>>5736704
you do not understand marxism, even slightly

[Anonymous No.5736725]

>>5736717
ever met a dude who gets a lot of hot chicks one day decide to have his dick lopped off and some big barbie boobs sewn on?

[Anonymous No.5736727]

>>5736722
>you do not understand marxism, even slightly
this has got to be a troll

please explain how im wrong carl

[Anonymous No.5736734]

>>5736704
Go pick up a book. Aren't you ashamed of ridiculizing youself by discussing something you know nothing about?

>i think youre the one who needs to be educated
>imblying

[Anonymous No.5736737]

>>5736734
>Some skinny white bourgie brainwashed by centuries old propaganda

Wow what a shocker

[Anonymous No.5736739]

>>5736725
So it's zero? Great stuff.

[Anonymous No.5736744]

>>5736734
of course its a white male
only they are stupid enough to believe that garbage

i think its about time you began your daily flagellation for what happened to the blacks 200 years ago

[Anonymous No.5736747]

>>5736739
that's my point exactly, thank you.

[Anonymous No.5736750]

>>5736737
How is a descriptive economic theory brainwashing?

Also, i'm a third worlder. Not that your ad hominem would be valid if i wasn't.

[Anonymous No.5736754]

>>5736747
I didn't realize that your point was that you didn't have any basis to say what you said, my bad.

[Anonymous No.5736756]

>>5736750
>ruling class in the third world trying to take the heat off himself and blame it all on white america

fuck off

[Anonymous No.5736758]

>>5736727
You're thinking of some form of social democracy. Marxism is about workers seizing control of the means of production.

[Anonymous No.5736761]

>>5736750

"b-b-but third worlders who support non-socialist economic systems are brainwashed to act against their own interest!" says the fanatical would-be socialist

[Anonymous No.5736763]

>>5736754
well, let's talk about you? if you could actually get pussy would you still be imaging you're the chick when you watch a porno?

[Anonymous No.5736767]

>>5736744
>>5736756
>your daily flagellation for what happened to the blacks 200 years ago
>blame it all on white america
Marxism is classist, it doesn't give a fuck about race. Why don't you rest your /pol/ buzzwords for a while and go actually read about what you are discussing.

[Anonymous No.5736768]

>>5736750
>How is fervently reasserting theorums that have never worked despite dozens of attempts but have killed millions brainwashing?
>If I cry fallacy in regards to an insult I'll appear intelligent!

Dyin laffin over here m8.

[Anonymous No.5736769]

>>5736756
>>5736761
>let me tell you what you believe

fuck off

[Anonymous No.5736771]

>>5736761
Nice imaginary quote.

[Anonymous No.5736774]

>>5736767
>i only care about class

>rich white guy using marxism to dodge his priviledge while still getting to fuck leftist chicks at college

it's not as effective as joining a frat as far as white guys getting laid on campus goes but it has to be the next best thing, cheers brosef

[Anonymous No.5736776]

>>5736767
Classical Marxism doesn't, but modern Marxists are all edgy teen anarchobabbies who obsess over race and gender

[Anonymous No.5736781]

All the great surrealists (except Dali) were communists/anarchists

[Anonymous No.5736782]

>>5736776
For example what authors?

[Anonymous No.5736785]

>>5736781
yeah, and living in the free world

by the way, all the great authors were anti-Semitic

[Anonymous No.5736789]

>>5736782
pretty much all of them since 1960

[Anonymous No.5736792]

>>5736768
That's not what brainwashing means. And that applies to any "failed" (economic) theories, not just marxism. Nobody would be retarded enough to call a pro shock therapy paper brainwashing just because shock therapy policies ended up failing. And the same is true for other sciences.

>>5736774
Is that supposed to be your refutation of marxism having nothing to do with race? Come back after reading and having actual arguments.

[Anonymous No.5736797]

>>5736758
Yea exactly as in INTERVENING IN EVONOMICS

its like you wont call somthing a plant just because it has blue leaves

[Anonymous No.5736799]

>>5736789
that's because by the 60s it was clear marxism was wrong and communism was a failure

[Anonymous No.5736801]

>>5736776
I don't consider postmodern "marxism" that has nothing to do with what marx wrote marxism, and i don't see why anyone should. And i was under the impression that we were discussing marx.
I agree that your average american college marxist is a retard.

[Anonymous No.5736802]

Question for the pro-communists.

Why do communist states always end up suppressing freedom of speech, censoring works of art, and controlling the public cultural space very aggressively? What does Marx say about this?

Reading Grossman's Life and Fate, and while it definitely criticizes, it also really holds up the proletariat as the backbone of the state, and it was censored after the Khrushchev thaw. All the same, it and who knows how many other great works were consigned to the dustbin.

[Anonymous No.5736803]

>>5736792
have you met an "actually existing marxist" who didn't put race front an center in every issue? are you actually involved in leftist politics or did you just win a marx/lenin book lot on ebay

[Anonymous No.5736805]

>>5736789
Like who? If it's everyone naming five or ten should be easy since it's just five or ten from every author you've read on the subject.

[Anonymous No.5736808]

>>5736803
I've never met an actual marxist who wasnt a 50+ year old professor or a half stoned douchebag with a Che Guevara shirt on.

[Anonymous No.5736815]

>>5736803
I've never met one that does. I think it's mainly an american issue.

[Anonymous No.5736817]

>>5736802
USSR outside of Stalinism and China since Mao don't really suppress freedom of speech or censor works of art any more than capitalist societies do. and if you want to talk about controlling the public cultural space, I think communist states have been much less controlling than capitalist ones.

just because the control in capitalist states is from entrenched financial power structures and social domineering rather than state structures, it's still control. I really do think that this is a mote-in-your-own-eye kind of thing - we're conditioned to see things in our own societies as normal

[Anonymous No.5736827]

>>5736802
Marx is against that. The whole censorship and no freedom usually happens because the communists ally with the military since they are the only ones that can make such a change in society and economy happen.

[Anonymous No.5736831]

>>5736817
>I think communist states have been much less controlling than capitalist ones.

you needed special security clearance to use a fucking photocopier in the soviet because you might make a bunch of copies of anti-communist leaflets...saying the are "equally controlling" is just nonense, unless of course you know the url to the orth korean and cuban versions of 4chan?

[Anonymous No.5736838]

>>5736827
>relying on the military for change

that's just bonapartism, if it's not the workers it's not marxist, end of story

[Anonymous No.5736839]

>>5736817
>I think communist states have been much less controlling than capitalist ones
Completely agreed.

I wish the USA had the artistic freedom of North Korea.

[Anonymous No.5736840]

>>5736817
This just isnt true. Its a given that they DID censor, and censor dramatically. On the other hand, in this capitalistic society people like Chomsky get book deals, and scientists that are in disagreement with half of the government on base science are able to still get grants and argue in front of committees.

[Anonymous No.5736847]

>>5736838
Of course. That's why I said that marx is against that.

[Anonymous No.5736850]

>>5736838

Lenin would disagree, and say that as long as the vanguard is in charge, the organs of the states can all be used to further the revolution

[Anonymous No.5736853]

>>5736839
>sarcastics posts
This is a /lit/ board m8,

[Anonymous No.5736855]

>>5736817
You might want to read about the Hays code to have some examples to bring up next time.

[Anonymous No.5736861]

>>5736817
Capitalists societies censor books indirectly. You still can get them but it's harder.

In the USSR there was a lot of censorship. That's a fact. Of course that doesn't mean communism or marxism is shit.

[Anonymous No.5736872]

>>5736861
I dont know about harder, I can get almost any book I want regarding the subject on amazon, alibris, or at my public library, and as far as pirating, easier than all 3

[Anonymous No.5736874]

>>5736861
>You still can get them but it's harder.
yeah, you have to like use interlibrary loan and that shit takes like a fuckin week! god damn capitalism!!

[Anonymous No.5736876]

>>5736861
>Capitalists societies censor books indirectly.
muh invisible bourgeois boogeyman

>Of course that doesn't mean communism or marxism is shit.
Yes it does.

[Anonymous No.5736879]

>>5736395
>best thing is for the workers of the land to use it collectively.
Except that only happens in fantasy land.

[Anonymous No.5736894]

>>5736876
>le boogeyman fallacy
I've seen like thousands of retards not knowing what is this. Are you lost little /pol/ack?

[Anonymous No.5736897]

>>5736872
what about the anarchist cookbook or mein kampf?

[Anonymous No.5736899]

>>5736894
>I've seen like thousands of retards not knowing what is this
This sentence doesn't make any sense.

>Are you lost little /pol/ack
Oh no, he called me a /pol/ack!

[Anonymous No.5736904]

>>5736899
You simply know nothing about what you posted.
>Oh no, he called me a /pol/ack!
Yes I did. Back to that board to read that pic about fallacies that is wrong.

[Anonymous No.5736914]

>>5735302
marxists eat babies alive!!one1

[Anonymous No.5736918]

>>5736897
Anarchist Cookbook is a PDF online, you can get it at any edgemaster hipster store, or at Strawberry Music in Boston.

Mein Kampf is available everywhere, I got mine at Borders, there were like 15 copies. If you want really hard to get stuff you can try for something like Unintended Consequences by John Ross civil war against the ATF and federal government over gun rights, the Turner Diaries, or Ernst Junger's Marble Cliffs or Eumswil, IE reactionary stuff that is out of print, and even then if you want to put down 70-200 bucks you can grab it on half a dozen sites or at a library.

[Anonymous No.5736930]

>>5736918
So it's harder. It's not as simple s going to a public library and grab those books.

Of course thanks to internet now all of that is really easy. Before it wasn't like that.

[Anonymous No.5736940]

>>5736930
No they are at the library, but look, there are plenty of perfectly acceptable books on capitalism that are out of print too. It has nothing to do with ghost censorship, its pure profit motive. Again, Noam Chomsky gets bought and read, so he can go ahead and say that the US is a dictatorship, we fucked 5 south american countries in the ass, and the whole govt should be torn down, and btw 9/11 is probably a conspiracy, and you can buy manufacturing consent, or for that matter confessions of an economic hitman another damning book at any library or bookstore

[Anonymous No.5736943]

>>5736918
>Ernst Junger's Marble Cliffs
Lol, my college's library actually has it, although it's pretty small (frenchfag though, the quality of our libraries might be a bit better)

[Anonymous No.5736947]

>>5736943
Its fantastic, but it sure doesnt like kleptocracy

[Anonymous No.5736954]

>>5736918
>Elders of Zion
>Amazon Prime Enabled!

[Anonymous No.5736959]

>>5736940
Never said something about Chomsky. Still I never said it's impossible to get those books, just that capitalists countries censors those indirectly.

[Anonymous No.5736966]

>>5736918
while you're talking about books that are hard to find in capitalism can anyone link me to a copy of "Shockley On Eugenics And Race", used copy is like 30 bucks on amazon and while that is quite affordable i'm a cheap bish

http://books.google.com/books/about/Shockley_on_eugenics_and_race.html?id=BLlXAAAAYAAJ

[Anonymous No.5736970]

>>5736959
try finding a copy of the Koch Brothers father's book criticizing Stalinism...it's the most pro-capitalist shit by the father of two of the top ten richest people in America, yet it's hard to find...is it "censored"? or just "out of print" as the bourgeois like say?

[Anonymous No.5736976]

>>5736970
Found it in 3 seconds using google

http://digilib.usm.edu/cdm/ref/collection/manu/id/1401

You sure aren't helping dispelling the idea that marxists are huge retards.

[Anonymous No.5736981]

>>5736976
Why would such a book even be censored in the first place

[Anonymous No.5736987]

>>5736981
Because muh evil bourgeoisie

[Anonymous No.5736988]

>>5736976
the best part about that book is that the koch fortune came from soviet russia when stalin hired poppa koch to build oil infrastructure in russia! then like an egyptian pharoah protecting the location of his tomb stalin had all the engineers executed to the horror of koch, there can be no doubt communism is oriental despotism

[Anonymous No.5736990]

>>5736970
So an obscure pro-capitalist book only found in the inter-university library loan system is a relevant example of a systemic ghost censorship program by the capitalist elite?

[Anonymous No.5736994]

>>5736981
well it's not in every barnes and noble branch in a strip mall in the midwest therefor it indicates a vast capitalist conspiracy to censor books! at least that what's the marxists say when they are desperate for oppression equivalence

[Anonymous No.5736999]

>>5736988
Communism was never actually attempted in Russia. It has never really been attempted anywhere.

[Anonymous No.5737001]

>>5736990
no u fucking dufus, the point was all kind of books fall out of print including shit that is raging anti-communist, it's not censorship it's supply and demand

[Anonymous No.5737003]

>>5736999
this "communism has never been tried" meme is getting old

[Anonymous No.5737008]

>>5736999
that's because it's a fantasy, much like santa's workshop has never existed anywhere and has never been truly attempted

[Anonymous No.5737009]

>>5736994
You cant find most academic non-fiction in Barnes and Nobles, their history section is all templars and chariots of the gods, plus some murrican war history, world war 2, and the greeks

>>5737001
that was a rhetorical question asked of a nonsensical example

[Anonymous No.5737010]

>>5736999
Please stop saying this

[Anonymous No.5737035]

>>5737009
you just need to go to the one on 18th street it has all the textbooks for The New School and NYU and some other rich kid schools

[Anonymous No.5737039]

>>5737035
>you just need to go to the one on 18th street it has all the textbooks for The New School and NYU and some other rich kid schools

I like Harvard Square, when I was in NYC I was also a big fan of the upper floors of the Strand

>that wall of penguin classics

[Anonymous No.5737055]

>>5737039
Bourgeois scum detected

[Anonymous No.5737140]

>>5735315
*atheist revolution

[Anonymous No.5737472]

so, /lit/ has received half of the stormfront poltards
truly sad

[Anonymous No.5737837]

>>5736817
>USSR outside of Stalinism and China since Mao don't really suppress freedom of speech or censor works of art any more than capitalist societies do

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinyavsky%E2%80%93Daniel_trial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial_of_the_Four

Your next step will try to find an example of the FBI under Hoover or the Congress under McCarthy harassing a left-wing activist to build up a false equivalence

[Anonymous No.5738003]

There are literally marxists ITT who try to revise the events of the holodmor and downplay it.

Fucking crazy, pure craziness