/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5711015]

>The Karamazov Brothers

fucking dropped

[Anonymous No.5711025]

>Finnegan's Wake
Drop'd.

[Anonymous No.5711033]

why are wordsworths always so shitty

[Anonymous No.5711040]

>mfw Wordswoth Classics

[Anonymous No.5711074]

>>5711015
By the title I'm guessing that's the Ignat Avsey translation?
Good job on dropping the best translation of TBK m8.
Having read the Garnett, P&V, and Avsey versions, I've gotta say categorically the Avsey translation is the best one, it's the most "Russian" feeling of the translations, and more pleasant to read than what I'd call the 'literalist' P&V version.

The reason the title is rendered The Karamazov Brothers, Avsey argues in the foreword, is that 'The Brothers Karamazov' is an awkward, and too literal translation - just because the Russians called it bratya karamazovy doesn't mean we should follow this word order: after all we couldn't call the comedy troupe The Brothers Marx, or the movie company The Brothers Warner.

[Anonymous No.5711258]

>>5711074
Actually it isn't awkward at all, as that's what we've gotten used to calling it. "The Brothers Marx" or "The Brothers Warner" are awkward because we never say that.

[Anonymous No.5711296]

>>5711258
>it isn't awkward at all
no. hamfisting awkward constructions down your throat and then pretending it isn't awkward is dumb.

[Anonymous No.5711540]

>>5711025
um...

[Anonymous No.5711545]

>>5711540
>what is an apostrophe

[Anonymous No.5711557]

>>5711540
That edition has over six hundred typos. Which nobody else than Joyce can find.

I just truly wonder what was the thought behind that one. Is there a market for two dollar editions of Finnegans Wake?

[Anonymous No.5711561]

>>5711040
...

[Anonymous No.5711594]

>>5711015
Nabokov called it The Karamazov Brothers and he probably knew better than you

[Anonymous No.5711762]

>>5711258
"we've" only got used to it because constance garnett rendered it as such in the first english translation, and it became the 'standard'. It doesn't change the fact it's a literal translation of the russian title in russian word order, and that its word order is syntactically 'strange' in english.

Garnett was a comparatively mediocre translator (though immensely important) and in translating the title she should have rendered it into something more natural sounding to english ears. This isn't the first time garnett has made a questionable decision on translating a dostoevsky novel - look at how she rendered besy as 'The Possessed'.

[Anonymous No.5711785]

>>5711540
>>5711561
What are you trying to prove here?

[Anonymous No.5711787]

>>5711557
>Is there a market for two dollar editions of Finnegans Wake?

As long as /lit/ is around, there will always be a market for cheap rhinestones for the peppering of bookshelves. Terminally unread, but they do get some love via bookshelf threads.

[Anonymous No.5711807]

>>5711594
>appealing to that
Dostoevsky called it the Brothers Karamazov, and he probably knew it better than Nabokov

[Anonymous No.5711824]

>>5711074
That's because it's a different language.

[Anonymous No.5711832]

>>5711807
He actually never called it like that.

[Anonymous No.5711836]

>>5711807
Dostoevsky didn't speak English you dunce

[Anonymous No.5711841]

>>5711832
Братья Карамазовы
notice the Russian word for "brother" comes before the "Karamazov"

[Anonymous No.5711845]

>>5711545
>in coffee place
>reading Finnegans Wake
>girl comes up to me and says, "Wow, Finnegan's Wake. Are you having any trouble with it?"
>"It's Finnegans Wake"
>"...what?
>"There's no apostrophe there. That's very important."
>she just stands there for a sec then walks away

[Anonymous No.5711848]

>>5711841
Notice that it's Russian.

[Anonymous No.5711850]

>>5711841
It's almost as if different languages have different syntax

[Anonymous No.5711865]

>>5711836
>Dostoevsky didn't speak English you dunce

So why are all his novels written in English?

[Anonymous No.5711876]

>>5711865
rekt

[Anonymous No.5711891]

>>5711807
lel, dostoevsky didn't call it The Brothers Karamazov, he called it Братья Карамазовы.
romanised that's bratya karamazovi, see how that original word order gives us the english title Brothers Karamazov.

Now would you call Nabokov's novel Защита Лужина The Defence Luzhin? No, it's called the Luzhin Defence, because russian word order is surprisingly nothing like english, and part of the translation process is providing euphony - what sounds good in our language, not just a literal dump of what the words in x language mean in y language.

Why should we then not call it the Karamazov Brothers as this is how we usually construct our phrases and names.

To put it short, its only called the Brothers Karamazov nowadays due to tradition, same as how new translations of Turgenev's Отцы и дети still render it as Fathers and Sons

[Anonymous No.5711903]

>>5711891
A non-idiotic post on /lit/? I'm dreaming.

[Anonymous No.5711908]

>>5711841
You fuckin' serious?
If there's a French novel called 'Le Chien Noir' (there probably is) should we translate it as 'The Dog Black'? The only reason to translate 'Братья Карамазовы' is if normal Russian syntax is to do 'Карамазовы Братья' and 'Братья Карамазовы' is an unusual style choice, like it's normal in English to say 'the Grimm brothers' but 'The Brothers Grimm' is a special decision.

[Anonymous No.5711999]

>>5711807
b8

[Anonymous No.5712028]

>>5711908
>normal Russian syntax
The way the language is structured allows its writers and speakers to really say things however the fuck they want. Syntax does not alter meaning like it does in English.

[Anonymous No.5712476]

>>5711903
dreaming of me bby

[Anonymous No.5712499]

>>5712028
It does in fact alter meaning, it is used to emphasize certain elements of the sentence (not that I disagree with what you're saying)

[Anonymous No.5713087]

>>5712028
in this case 'братья карамазовы' is the normal syntax to say 'the karamazov brothers' while 'карамазовы братья' would actually mean 'karamazovs [are] brothers' (russian language skips 'to be' in the present tense and forming the phrase that way you strongly imply there is an invisible 'are' there to connect the words)
the freedom of the syntax in russian is kind of overestimated (and also it's underestimated for english)

[Anonymous No.5713108]

>>5713087
>>5711908
write in fucking american you deuces

[Anonymous No.5713120]

>>5713108
>being this pleb

[Anonymous No.5713375]

>>5713108

Why you gotta be a faggot who doesn't respect the original language? You've got people here who can read Russian and are passionate about the work. Pick up your fucking hamburgers and listen, you might learn something

[Anonymous No.5713416]

>>5713120
>>5713375
taking b8 this easily. are russians more dumb than amerifats?

[Anonymous No.5714523]

>>5713416
>more dumb

amerifats

[Anonymous No.5714737]

>>5713416
Only when sober.

[Anonymous No.5714916]

>>5711074
>>5711762
>>5711891
It's actually traditional English syntax too. English is very stretchy and there is no rule that it should be one way or the other. Ex. The Brothers Grimm.

[Anonymous No.5715066]

>>5711841
well done, you have figured out that different language have different grammar

nobody calls "The Golden Ass" "The Ass Golden"(Asinus aureus) and noone would say that Caesar once wrote "in general gladly men what they want they believe"(Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.)