/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5698134]

what does /lit/ think about the book guns, germs, & steel?

[Anonymous No.5698144]

Not much.

[Anonymous No.5698152]

it's shit

[Anonymous No.5698171]

Something something camels and zebras

[Anonymous No.5698236]

I think it's a convenient frame for /pol/tards to justify incursions into /lit/.

[Anonymous No.5698301]

There needs to be a General Q&A with this included because it pop ups every now and again. Its pop-sci and maybe good for people to think about alternative theory but his research is pretty flawed on a basic level.

He has theories then looks for evidence to justify them rather than determine theory from objective view of evidence.

It reminds me of Malcolm Gladwell they both have a bit of a less than scientific approach to assigning causation to correlation.

[Anonymous No.5698315]

>>5698301
>He has theories then looks for evidence to justify them rather than determine theory from objective view of evidence.

You don't go "determining theory" from "a view of the evidence". There will always be an effectively infinite number of theories to fit the available facts.

[Anonymous No.5698318]

I feel the same way about this book as I do about where to start with Pynchon.

[Anonymous No.5698323]

>>5698315
Yes but its about best fit of all the evidence not best fit of the evidence that suits your pet project.

[Anonymous No.5698326]

pretty good.

[Anonymous No.5698358]

Threads like this always seem to imply that if an idea might possibly be wrong or fail to account for all of the facts that it cannot possibly be of any value and may in fact poison the mind.

I can't stand that kind of intellectual Puritanism. Read the fucking book and then decide whether you agree or disagree.

[Anonymous No.5698368]

>>5698134
Read Hegel, Toynbee, Spengler and Jaspers instead.

[Anonymous No.5698392]

Diamond raises some interesting points but overreaches with the conclusions he draws. He's also not actually trained as a historian or anthropologist. He just decided to start doing it one day, and it shows.

[Anonymous No.5698394]

>>5698358

It's a reaction to non-specialists reading the book and citing it as gospel. Most people do not have the expertise to legitimately decide if they agree or disagree.

[Anonymous No.5698401]

>>5698394
This. Think of it as reading a book on medicine written by a guy who just kind of observed some shit and failed to engage the other literature at all, and then deciding you should be taking some certain drug. While having poorly-informed anthropological views probably won't kill you, enough people having poorly-informed anthropological views can lead to justifying killing other people.

[Anonymous No.5698403]

>>5698358
If you look in this thread both the people suggesting negative opinions of the book also imply there is some merit to it: the exact opposite of what you are suggesting.

[Anonymous No.5699081]

This pic basically sums it up

[Anonymous No.5699132]

>>5698134
The basic premise is Europeans lucked out on having connections to good working animals from Eurasia and that Europe favored balkanization which leads to technological leaps as nations compete.

I personally believe Europeans got ahead of the game because of the following.
1: Close to a source of civilization (ancient middle eastern and Greek ones)
2: Land that is not to harsh to cultivate anything nor to easy on humans to lead them to not advance
3: Use of draught animals
4: Use of steel

If you go by these factors pretty much all of sub-Saharan Africa and America are disqualified. The biggest powers in Asia chose self imposed exile when they still were on a tech level with the rest of the world. This really leaves Europe and the Ottoman empire as sole contenders for world domination. To be honest they were pretty much in a neck a neck race, the Europeans had the advantage of having caravel build ships from oak filled with cannons as opposed to Mediterranean galleys which are not that suited to transatlantic voyages and naval warfare against the European design. Add to that the Ottoman empire had a chronic issue with it's administration and internal power struggles while Europe had smaller countries which were administrative more advanced (and fighting each other).

[Anonymous No.5699157]

>>5698392
>He's also not actually trained as a historian or anthropologist. He just decided to start doing it one day, and it shows.

Person with training in anthropology here. Yep, pretty much this. Diamond's reasoning and conclusions are all based on oversimplification and theoretical stances that are outdated. Pretty much all anthropologists hate the guy and will say that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

And this: >>5698401 is a big problem. Anthropology (and archaeology, my specialization) is a field a field that's already badly represented in the popular sphere. Jared Diamond is basically contributing to the kind of pseudoscience that actual anthropologists have to spend too much time debunking.

[Anonymous No.5699178]

>>5698134

The question it poses is interesting, but his answer is factually and logically lacking.

I'd give it a 4/10

[Anonymous No.5699185]

>>5699132
I think it is pretty lucky how God placed the Europeans in a region with good resources and a temperate climate. Crazy how the Lord works.

[Anonymous No.5699191]

>>5699185

It's also crazy that God gave European the Greeks.
Europeans sure lucked out there.

Not to mention God also gave them the Vikings, who were extremely ingenious when it came to exploration, farming and trade.

[Anonymous No.5699205]

>>5698134
>Jared Diamond

This is the same guy who said that genetic research will help Israel determine who is Jewish and who isn't; which is important for their citizenship process.

And then in his books he likes to say that ethnic groups are arbitrary and irrelevant and social constructs lol...

[Anonymous No.5699215]

>>5699185
>>5699191
Well and don't forget grain. People really underestimate how much the staple food affects the society that eats it. (looking at you Asia)

[Anonymous No.5699232]

>>5699215

Africans were walking on diamonds, rubies and gold and didn't know what to do with them...They didn't explore and learn much about trade.

Except in like 600AD for a century or two, some of them realized how much Gold they had, one king took his gold to Egypt as a gift and basically caused their currency to tank lol...

Not to mention the absolute cornucopia of natural resources it had, and still has to this day...barely utilized. They didn't even chop down trees to make sturdy houses out of wood.

[Anonymous No.5699234]

>>5699232
How bad would it really be if we just wiped out all the africans
The good of all you know?

[Anonymous No.5699245]

>>5698301
>He has theories then looks for evidence to justify them rather than determine theory from objective view of evidence.
Popperite pls go.

[Anonymous No.5699253]

>>5699234
It wouldn't change much, it would probably just lower the price of some metals.

[Anonymous No.5699256]

>>5699234

This scientist was paid to do that basically...

http://vimeo.com/6484188

[Anonymous No.5699258]

>>5699232
nice pasta fagot

[Anonymous No.5699259]

>>5699245
>Popperite pls go.

That doesn't strike me as Popperian. Granting that the method he dismisses does appear verificationist in bent.

[Anonymous No.5699273]

>>5698134
Incoming /pol/ circlejerk. Please /pol/ stay civilized and don't spew memes.

So, that books is good but it doesn't have enough information for making claims like that.

That said, many white supremacists hate the book, even if the book states the reason why 'white' civilizations triumphed. Why? Because according to them whites are superior per se.

Also, I've seen way too much pics making fun of this book, and many of them are wrong, incluiding those omg so funny pics where there are people riding tigers and zebras.

[Anonymous No.5699279]

>>5699232
Read >>5699132
again faggot.

[Anonymous No.5699284]

>>5699273
Diamond states that the success of the white race is simply geographic, I don't see why anyone on /pol/ would like it.

[Anonymous No.5699288]

Civilization The Book.

>rivers give +1 food
>muh herd animals
>basic resources
>luxury resources +2 trade
>first one to iron
>REX swordsman conquer cities

But it was good, although I felt it would have been better.

[Anonymous No.5699293]

>>5699279

He mentions diamonds and rubies and such as though they're innately valuable without a shitload of prior circumstances. We're not dealing with a real sharp guy, basically.

>>5699284
>I don't see why anyone on /pol/ would like it.

>>5698236
>it's a convenient frame for /pol/tards to justify incursions into /lit/.

[Anonymous No.5699299]

>>5699284
Not only geographical, it was the thing that pushed them. He never said something about the white race btw (it was the western civilizations). It's obvious that there are other reasons for western civilizations being superior rather than just being white.

[Anonymous No.5699304]

>>5699273
>So, that books is good

No, it's complete garbage.

>many of them are wrong, incluiding those omg so funny pics where there are people riding tigers and zebras.

No, those funny pics are right as taming is a prerequisite for domestication.

[Anonymous No.5699306]

>>5699299
Unless you consider eastern Europeans white western and white are synonymous.

[Anonymous No.5699310]

>>5699304
why is it garbage?
>No, those funny pics are right as taming is a prerequisite for domestication.

Right about what? Seems many of those who made the pics never read the book. Appart from that, most of those pics aren't ancient so that's why they are wrong too.
>>5699306
Yeah but Diamond never wrote "The white civilization" or something like that.

[Anonymous No.5699313]

>>5699232
>Africans didn't explore and learn much about trade. Except in like 600AD for a century or two, some of them realized how much Gold they had, one king took his gold to Egypt as a gift and basically caused their currency to tank lol...

That was funny.
Did they even record their history? It seems like sometimes they figured something out, made a bit of progress, and then just forgot about it...

[Anonymous No.5699321]

If you go on the African 4chan you'll hear some pretty funny things.


http://www.nairaland.com/977521/why-nigerians-look-white-people


>"Sometimes when we see some amazing feats in science and technology, my Nnewi friend would say jokingly: bekee wu agbara, bekee wu mmuo (white man is a spirit!)."

>"I still say that to myself sometimes when i see everyday things like a huge jumbo jet taking to the skies in all its majesty"
>The painful truth is that the so called white men, are better evolved homo sapiens. Blacks are the earlier human species that existed....but whites are better evolved species. Ever thought why an average black man is selfish than average white ?

[Anonymous No.5699329]

>>5699321
>http://www.nairaland.com/977521/why-nigerians-look-white-people

>weather we Africans like it or not, they are our superior and there is noting you and i or anybody can do about it

actually kinda sad

[Anonymous No.5699331]

>>5699132
Saying that 'Europeans' had an advantage is too broad, it was the Atlantic powers (England, Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands) who came to dominate world trade, and then Great Britain and the Netherlands who surged ahead in the Industrial Revolution.

[Anonymous No.5699335]

>>5699321
just found this
>It is not just nigerians alone. Truth is many black people infact feel inferior to the white race for folowing reasons
1. our history have been re-constructed and as a result we have been educated to feel that way.
2. Unlike us (blacks) white people love themselves and as a result they place much value on every individual belonging to their race. In other words they love, encourage and support one another. While we hate our colour, hate ourselves and vent out our frustration on anybody that look like us. Any one darker than us; we call ugly and those that are light skinned we call beautiful. - These are the main reason why black neighbourhood and black nations reman under-developed
3. We honour and idolise the whites who make us feel us feel small and whose language we do not understand and hate, stereotype even our neighbour who are of other ethnicity.
4. My list can go on and on but let it stop but not without saying that not all blacks/nigerians feel inferoir to whites and also not all whites feel superior to blacks but then, if we act inferior to them; then what can the do but pity us.
5. Solution: let´s begin to love ourselves and others irrespective of language or nation and we will prosper and nolonger feel incompetent before a white man which in most cases we are even mentally and physically better than.

Actually a good point.

Also, how are we sure they are all africans? Because I see something like that ('jews' saying they are cancer, blacks saying they are shit) in many forums.

[Anonymous No.5699340]

>>5699335

#2 is a good point, ya.

I dunno, im guessing majority of them are nigerian since its a nigerian forum

[Anonymous No.5699344]

>>5699331
Well yeah basically that. Central Europe got left out and got few colonies.

[Anonymous No.5699345]

ITT: Bunch of retards in this thread trying to point out that Jared Diamond is vaguely wrong about something

[Anonymous No.5699349]

>>5698134
I remember liking it a LOT as a 12 year old but I assume by posting this thread there are some valid critiques of it? I'll read on through....

[Anonymous No.5699353]

>>5699340
I don't think #2 is a good point in some way (what does he consider as white people? Western europeans I think).
Appart from that, I really doubt they are from Nigeria because of:

They say "the blacks", "we the blacks", and that is something that happens in non subsaharan africa. In Africa there are many racial fights, however, most of non-africans think they all love themselves because they are black (a single race according to them, same happens when people say all europeans are white and yadda yadda).

[Anonymous No.5699355]

>>5699321
>lmaoo with your answer why won't you feel inferior shocked... race is a social construct, anthropologist will tell you there's nothing like race. yes modern blacks especially west Africans and other ethnicity around the globe have gone through series of genetic mutation and environment adaptation to look how we are......what's holding us back in Africa is our mentality and what not.
>race is a social construct
damn africans m7

[Anonymous No.5699356]

>>5699313
>>5699321
>>5699329
Reminds me of a story I'd heard about some pacific island where the natives had found the remains of a shipwreck.

On the ship were crates of books, specifically they were all copies of one book being shipped for sale.

The natives were absolutely astounded at what they found, not because they had any understanding of what a book is or what they represented but because every single book was exactly the same as all the others.

Every cover, every page, every letter, all identical. And it blew their minds.

The story's probably apocryphal, but it's a nifty take on Clarke's quote about sufficiently advanced technology.

[Anonymous No.5699357]

>>5698301
I guess I take it more as historical fiction than popular science so I am not too concerned by this. >>5698392
This as well.

[Anonymous No.5699360]

>>5699157
Oh cool. I'm a sociology major but I'm gonna take archaeology next semester with the hopes of taking a 400's level anthro class down the road that requires archaeology as a prequisite or even doing some actual archaeology as part of a semester abroad in Israel (that's where my parents want me to go).

[Anonymous No.5699363]

>>5699273
Wait, maybe I misread it but how was GG&S in any way pro or anti nazi unless you are just reading wayyyyy too much into it?

[Anonymous No.5699369]

>>5699355
>John: bby am gonna tell u a story
with 4 parts. Remember that, 4 parts
Grace: alryt love
John: okay am gonna start wth part 1.
There was a husband n a wife, they
were driving to a camp site wen they
came upon a split road. The husband
says "lets take the left one. The wife
say i thnk we shuld take the right
road." The husband slaps the wife
across the face "whose driving me or
u?" and they took the left path.
Grace: hahahahaha..
John: now am gonna tell u part 2.
Once they got to the camp the
husband goes fishing so his wife can
cook dinner. He comes back and the
wife says "good now i can cook fish
soup for us to eat." The husband says
"but i wanna eat fried fish." The wife
slaps the husband n says "who is
cooking me or u?" and the ended up
drinking fish soup.
Grace: oh crap! Hahaha
John: now am gonna tell u part 4.
Grace: wat abt part 3?
John: (landed grace a hot slap on the
face) who is telling the story me or
u?

shit that's a good one

[Anonymous No.5699379]

>>5699232
The mongolism in this post, even if it is a copypasta.. jesus fuck

[Anonymous No.5699380]

>>5699363
I just said that because many white supremacist hate it because according to them the only reason why whites are superior is because they are whites.

[Anonymous No.5699383]

>>5699157
>I'm a senior in a cultural anthropology program
>I'm also both the people you quoted in that post
VALIDATION!

[Anonymous No.5699389]

>>5699380
Wait their reasoning HAS to be more complex than that. I mean I guess I'm not really a white supremacist much so I can't like speak as one but surely their political M.O. is a bit more sophisticated and this book must touch a specific nerve. What is the thesis of this book again?

[Anonymous No.5699390]

>>5699081
It's a combination of what you posted and also racism against people in other countries since it basically implies they need saving by white people who can bring them the glory of capitalism.

[Anonymous No.5699393]

I liked the book but seems it doesn't have that ammount of facts according to you fegs. Is there a better book similar to this?

[Anonymous No.5699396]

>>5699383
Is archaeology part of cultural anthropology? Bit off topic sorry, just student who isn't a senior wondering which classes to take in ANTH if my major is SOCY and my interests include cultural geography/cultural anthropology.

[Anonymous No.5699403]

>>5699304
>taming is a prerequisite for domestication
Canines might have been a sole exception.

[Anonymous No.5699405]

>>5699390
Wait so you are saying J Diamond is a fan of the concept of the white man's burden, basically?

[Anonymous No.5699407]

>>5699389
I said many, not all of them. The nazis explain far more than saying "lol aryans are superior because they are aryans". I was talking about your average white supremacist, not the leaders/masterminds behind them.
>What is the thesis of this book again?
This >>5699132

Appart from that, there are many flaws in this book, but that isn't the main reason of their dislike.

[Anonymous No.5699412]

>>5699393
Yeah, I mean depends on what you want. This one is a good beach read and there's plenty of actual cultural anthropologists writing about a variety of world cultures for you to choose from if you want a more formal work. Its a matter of taste I suppose.

[Anonymous No.5699416]

>>5699407
Eek that thesis is fukt. Still a good beach read though just take it with a grain of salt I suppose.

[Anonymous No.5699418]

>>5699393

[Anonymous No.5699421]

>>5699412
I want a book that explain the reason why civilizations are superior compared to the rest. Is there a book about that?

[Anonymous No.5699427]

>>5699421

see >>5699418

[Anonymous No.5699429]

>>5699418
>>5699427
Thanks guys. Will read.

[Anonymous No.5699431]

>>5699405
A more complicated, secret version masquerading as globalization, yes.

He wrote another book in which he described a group of natives in some country-- I believe it was somewhere in Central America, but I never read this other book and don't remember for sure-- as constantly at war and desperate for help, even though most of them had never seen a fight with more than three or four people in it, ever, until the local government started stirring shit up and killing them. They actually demanded he apologize. I don't know if he ever did.

[Anonymous No.5699434]

>>5699421
They aren't they just reflect surplus agriculture. They create monarchies which I guess make better reads, well less dry, than reading about a despot.

[Anonymous No.5699784]

>>5699396
>Is archaeology part of cultural anthropology?

No. Anthropology is a somewhat wide discipline with four subfields. Archaeology and cultural anthropology are two of those subfields (linguistic anthropology and biological anthropology are the other two). They are linked, though: they both study culture, just through different means.

At least, that's in the United States. In Europe, they're entirely separate, with cultural anthropology usually being seen as its own thing and archaeology as a branch of history.

[Anonymous No.5699802]

>>5699421

I doubt that any social science book worth its salt would exist with that thesis.goal. The notion of "civilization" is kind of dogy to begin with, since there isn't a single, concrete definition for it, but there's no inherent reason the colloquial understanding (agriculturual surplus, writing, monumental architecture, etc.) should be understood as superior. In fact, there are plenty of reasons why civilization was actually a bad thing. Less diversity in diet led to issues with nutrition, living in close proximity with animals led to increased disease, conflict started to happen on a greater scale, and we actually had to work a lot harder for sustenance. Lifespans decreased drastically as a result of all this stuff.

[Anonymous No.5699807]

>>5699784
I like that European idea... even though I'm American.

[Anonymous No.5699809]

>>5699802
I think that's an overly broad indictment of the social sciences vis a vis an ability within their rubric to develop a good thesis.

[Anonymous No.5699822]

>>5699807

Why? I like the American system way more, as an archaeologist. The whole point of the field is to study culture through material remains; anthropology is a much better lens to do that through. Europeans still do archaeology through a theoretical framework that's viewed as archaic in America (culture history), because its mostly focused on solely describing artifacts.

[Anonymous No.5699831]

>>5699822
I'm super theoretical about my study of everything lol based on my year at the University of Chicago. They drill that into your head.

[Anonymous No.5699840]

>>5699418
>I will argue . . . that the beginnings of self-consciousness presuppose the historical existence of self-assertive characters living in a heroic culture. The unceasing aristocratic desire for personal distinction was, in fact, the basis for the awakening of human self-consciousness and the eventual formation of an integrated personality capable of understanding the opposition between the “natural” and the “mental” world, leading to the dialectic of Western reason and freedom, which Hegel captured in his Phenomenology of the [Western] Spirit.

Boy this sounds like fun

[Anonymous No.5699842]

>>5699313
>>5699232
that was mansa musa and that story isnt quite right

[Anonymous No.5699848]

>>5699842
>Mansa Musa came to the throne through a practice of appointing a deputy when a king goes on his pilgrimage to Mecca or some other endeavor, and later naming the deputy as heir. According to primary sources, Musa was appointed deputy of Abubakari II, the king before him, who had reportedly embarked on an expedition to explore the limits of the Atlantic Ocean, and never returned. The Arab-Egyptian scholar Al-Umari quotes Mansa Musa as follows:

The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (the Atlantic Ocean). He wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and, at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign of life.[6]

fucking badass

[Anonymous No.5699896]

>>5699848
>>5699842

Story is right, the date is just wrong, Mansa Musa's hajj devalued gold in Mamluk Egypt for a decade, in the 1300s.

I don't believe Jared Diamond even researched Africa much at all. A quick overview of Wikipedia shows us just how INSANELY resourceful, and wealthy Africa was, and they KNEW it, it was also active in trade and exchange of information with Islam and Christians.

Africa is a giant continent with the most diverse ecology on the planet...their failure to "progress" I think is cultural not environmental...they had different values, different goals and views of the world. Lets be honest, IQ was probably also a limiting factor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Africa

[Anonymous No.5699907]

>>5699256
holy fuck man thats crazy

[Anonymous No.5699922]

Homeless people are flocking to Hawaii, guess why? Tropical / Warm climates are easy as fuck to live in.

Cold climates with rough terrain force you to become resourceful and hard-working.

African's and Europeans evolved under different environmental pressures....of course they are going to have different biologies and skills.

The crazy explorer tribe that LEFT africa 80,000 years ago is the one that interbred with neanderthals (who were much smarter than we normally thought)...and that group continued the legacy of exploration and ingenuity...

[Anonymous No.5699930]

>>5699922
then why did civilization emerge in egypt and mesopotamia, which in terms of climate are heaven on earth?

[Anonymous No.5699932]

Pop geography is as bad as pop history.

Ask any serious geographer about Jared Diamond's flawed, dumbed-down nonsense, I dare you.

[Anonymous No.5699933]

>>5699907
>>5699256
>http://vimeo.com/6484188

>biological weapons that kill or sterilize Blacks?
>so you worked on the Black Bomb?
>oh yes, those years were the most fun I've had in my life

lol....you know what's funny, Israel actually used sterilization drugs on black Ethiopians in Israel....they cut their reproduction levels by 50% until the media found out

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/28/ethiopian-women-given-contraceptives-israel

[Anonymous No.5699938]

>>5699930

modest civilization is one thing, advancement/progress/genius to the level of Europeans is another....

two totally different worlds mate.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5699942]

>>5699896
>A quick overview of Wikipedia
I don't hold Jared Diamond in enormous regard, but Wikipedia is an awful source of anything but lists and rudimentary definitions. With anything more complex, you should carefully look at the sources cited, and then look at the sources' sources.

[Anonymous No.5699946]

>>5699938
>pyramids, development of government and written language
>modest civilisation

meanwhile, the ubermensh were sitting in dirt houses covered in their own feces

[Anonymous No.5699957]

>>5699942

Wikipedia is hilarious if you know anything about a subject. Pretty sure some of the passages in the wikipedia entry on Ninja are based directly on made up crap from Naruto.

[Anonymous No.5699958]

>>5699957
You mean realultimatepower.net

[Anonymous No.5699966]

>>5699942
A surprising number of Wikipedia articles are mostly copy-pasted from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, it's generally bad at representing current academic opinion when it comes to history.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5699969]

My opinion on the work in question is that it has some very interesting facts in it, but that the theory Diamond presents is questionable in numerous regards and not rigorous enough to be an academic theory, it's more of an ideological interpretation. Toward the end of his work, it especially starts coming apart when he's explaining why Europe advanced faster than Asia.

[Anonymous No.5699970]

>>5699942
>>5699966

if we delve deeper into the sources on wikipedia and primary sources than Diamond's book and argument become even more baseless and incorrect.

Just how it goes

[Anonymous No.5699976]

>>5699205

he's a hack.

[Anonymous No.5699985]

>>5699205

And people wonder why he's made out to be a Friedrich Ratzel-tier environmental determinist....

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5699992]

>>5699970
How can something be 'more' baseless and incorrect?

[Anonymous No.5699999]

>>5699985

Friedrich Ratzel inspired German military expansionism in the 1930s. Not sure I could see Diamond's work having the same effect, exactly.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700000]

>>5699970
I noticed that Guns, Germs and Steel is source number 10 in that article....

[Anonymous No.5700010]

>>5698134
>guns, germs, & steel?

what is this, 2000? this book has been discredited and debunked for over a decade...Don't be fooled by its new covers.

[Anonymous No.5700016]

>>5700010

What did you think about Diamond's other book about how civilizations decline?

[Anonymous No.5700028]

>>5699999
>>5700000
damn
those repeating numbers

[Anonymous No.5700029]

>>5700010
>>5699976
>>5699205
>>5699232
>>5699132
>>5699081


I was gonna buy this book until I read this thread lol

[Anonymous No.5700049]

>>5699932
>not posting a relevant geographer for us to learn from
Why do you cunts even post? Seriously, you've obviously read these geographers, it would take you 3 seconds to type out a name or book or paper.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700071]

>>5700029
It's not worth buying by any means. It's worth checking out from the library and reading though, if only for things like the development of writing, the wheel and agriculture. Not his theory on these things, which is shoddy, but the facts he has are interesting.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700084]

>>5699405
Yes, definitely. He says Chinese culture is backward because they don't have copyright and other Eastern countries don't have a free market, and the U.S. has copyright and a free market so they allow geniuses such as Bill Gates to flourish.

[Anonymous No.5700093]

>>5699938
if we're talking racial intellect/civilization bonuses, white people are middle of the pack behind semites and east asians.

the genetic fuel for intelligence is a process called neotinization, which is basically evolved delays or the complete cessation of certain physical and mental developments, so that humans, as they've continued to evolve, have come to more and more resemble children. this has a few downsides, like making us quite physically weak and terribly slow/uncoordinized, but the benefit is that the same process makes humans more socially cohesive and mentally pliable (the ability to learn is, as far as most animals are concerned, the vocation of infants; human advance comes, in part, from the selective retardation of certain areas of the brain which keeps our brains adaptable when they should have otherwise solidified in their ways).

so if you look across races, you'll see that the more developed the race--e.g. the higher their average IQ, the less likely they are to commit crime, the more likely are to have planted the seeds for modern human society--the more neotinized they are. and in this respect, the white man fits somewhere in the middle of racial infantility. he is stronger/less intelligent than the mongloid or the semite, but he is weaker/more intelligent than the negroid.

really, the white man is a testament to the fact that genetic intelligence only plays one part. for the majority of modern human history, we have been barbarians. while others were inventing the written word, we stewed in our own filth and cannibalized each other, but a case of happenstance (the mongolians salting the earth of the other races and the death of the Khan preventing the fall of western europe) managed to set us ahead for a short enough amount of time, and that slight gap, along with a few other products of chance (by being occluded, due to our inferiority from the eurasian trade system, we were forced to advance our sea-faring), was sufficient to take hold of the world and snowball us to the place where we are now. for the truth is, more than anything, wealth enables all else, and wealth begets wealth.

genetically however, we are still very much brutes compared to those races who achieved, what i would think, are the bigger steps in human development (agriculture and writing, the rest is only a short step in the human time-line from there). this is the reason the jews can, time and time again, so easily cuckold our financial system. this is the reason east asians can work tirelessly, sleeping 5 hour days, when the white man's body would collapse, and also why they must be artificially limited in their admittance to our university system, as without such constraints they'd, by simply being more genetically suited to the modern world, completely dominate white entrants.

[Anonymous No.5700098]

>>5700029
theres a 3 part series, I think its still on netflix
not that bad

[Anonymous No.5700099]

>>5700084
hmmm seems like an interesting point. wonder if it has anything to do with the chinese being lizard people, someone should invesitage this or right him an email

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700102]

>>5700099
>Chinese
>Jewish
gr8 b8 goy

[Anonymous No.5700105]

>>5700093
Dude you realize Greeks and Romans are white right lol

[Anonymous No.5700118]

>>5700093
>while others were inventing the written word, we stewed in our own filth and cannibalized each other,

You should go read history, Europeans in the Bronze age, and prior, were more advanced technologically, socially, and agriculturally than North Africans.

Seriously, stop swallowing old wives tales and mainstream hogwash, go read the literature.

[Anonymous No.5700122]

>>5700102

Well, hey, there are theories claiming that East Asian people are descended from the lost tribes of Israel after all...

[Anonymous No.5700123]

Why are liberals so desperate to prove that there's no differences in race?

[Anonymous No.5700131]

>>5700123
Because of empathy for the inferior races.

[Anonymous No.5700133]

>>5700123

Because their entire ideology rests on the idea that "social power structures" are to blame for every inequality and problem we have.

[Anonymous No.5700137]

>>5700123

Because "scientific racism" is a fucking insulting and degrading idea when it's not, you know, internalized by an entire nation who decides to use it as a justification to commit genocide. Because that's totally never happened, right?

[Anonymous No.5700140]

>>5700133
I don't think it's anything that comlicated, I just think they feel bad for the lesser races, such as the unintelligent blacks and the effeminate Jews and Asians, which is admirable.

[Anonymous No.5700142]

>>5700123
That the individual be an actual individual and not some specter of the collective tossed up by some chance here and dice roll there leads to some scary thoughts.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700147]

>>5700123
Because gradation of humanity is inimical to liberalism. Imbecile.

[Anonymous No.5700149]

>>5700133
>>5700131
but it's only with bad things

Nobody cares when you say that blacks are the best athletes on Earth

Nobody cares when you say that Asians are the best at doing math

The second you even mention that whites have some form of superiorty in something over the other races, you're suddenly Hitler 2.0 (see >>5700137)

[Anonymous No.5700153]

>>5700123

Conservative who believes in racial equality here. How is that a specifically "liberal" idea?

[Anonymous No.5700157]

I think it's good that liberals want to help black people feel like they can contribute things of value to society as well, even if they can't

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700160]

>>5700149
>Nobody cares when you say that blacks are the best athletes on Earth
Yeah they do, any SJW will find that extremely offensive.

[Anonymous No.5700161]

>>5700153
I don't hear Conservatives talk about race that much. It's always liberals who bring it up.

[Anonymous No.5700195]

>>5700161
Conservatives don't talk about racial equality much, but they do talk about race (or things which are obvious proxies for race) all the fucking time.

[Anonymous No.5700198]

OK, so what is the Professional Anthropologist's answer to Yali's question?

[Anonymous No.5700200]

>>5700195
>or things which are obvious proxies for race

like what?

[Anonymous No.5700206]

>>5700200
fried chicken, watermelon, etc

[Anonymous No.5700207]

It's a brilliant book, and not because of the content, but because it is impossible to refute what he says.

If you try and refute his points, you are labelled as a white supremacist and are then outcast by society. You literally cannot refute his book and be taken seriously.

[Anonymous No.5700213]

>>5700207
you can easily refute it as long as that refutation is not "he's wrong, Africans didn't develop civilization because they're ooga ooga spearchuckers"

it's quite easy to refute him if you actually care to engage him on an intellectual level - it's not like the book has an especially positive reputation in academic circles

[Anonymous No.5700215]

>>5700195

Conservatives do talk about class, but class is not a proxy for race as many liberals erroneously claim. However, conservatives believe in social mobility. Class is not a fixed point for conservatives, whereas it is for liberals. Race is a fixed point, so class is therefore not a proxy for race in conservative dialogue.

[Anonymous No.5700225]

>>5700207
>>5700213

HATE SPEECH

[Anonymous No.5700234]

>>5700215
>However, conservatives believe in social mobility

definitely the main difference between conservatives and liberals on economic policy at least. democrat politicians always talk a big game about helping the poor but all they are doing is providing a safety net without increasing economic opportunity like republican politicians at least try to. this is based on the false assumption of liberal ideologues that the poor always stay poor, the rich always stay rich etc. conservatives on the other hand understand that it is possible to move up in society with the right opportunity. the only drawback is that it is also possible to move down.

[Anonymous No.5700248]

>>5700213
Well to be fair, we will likely never know why Europeans were so much more successful than other civilizations because it's something you simply cannot test scientifically. You can only guess as to why, and back up that guess with facts.

[Anonymous No.5700255]

>>5700234
I would argue that it's more accurate to say that both sides believe social mobility is a good thing but Republicans are pie-in-the-sky optimists about how easy it is (or, alternately, are cynical opportunists saying it's easy for their own reasons) whereas Democrats have a realistic and nuanced appreciation of the complexities of social mobility and more complex approaches to problems of poverty.

[Anonymous No.5700314]

>>5700215

"You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can't say “nigger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “Nigger, nigger.” "

-Lee Atwater

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

[Anonymous No.5700345]

>>5700149
>Nobody cares when you say that blacks are the best athletes on Earth
>Nobody cares when you say that Asians are the best at doing math

I care because those are lazy cliches, like saying that most jazz musicians are black because blacks have 'innate rhythm' or some shit. But I can accept more specific claims like 'West Africans have a genetic advantage in sprinting' or 'Chinese-Americans do well in math because their parents' culture values education highly.'

[Anonymous No.5700351]

>>5700255

this does not account for the further left of center liberals in the democratic party who outright deny the existence of social mobility or room for economic advancement because they do not believe in it

[Anonymous No.5700360]

>>5700345
>But I can accept more specific claims like 'West Africans have a genetic advantage in sprinting'

it's funny when people can accept that claim but deem as racist the claim that africans possibly have a genetic disadvantage in cognitive abilities

all the genetic differences must be to the advantage of africans otherwise it's racism hurr durr

[Anonymous No.5700386]

>>5699293
>We're not dealing with a real sharp guy, basically.

He attended the Roxbury Latin School and earned a Bachelor of Arts from Harvard College in 1958 and a PhD on the physiology and biophysics of membranes in the gall bladder from Trinity College, University of Cambridge in 1961

I'm pretty sure you're just nitpicking and interpreting freely. He is by no means a dumb man. And having read his book on traditional societies, I'm pretty sure he thouroughly knows subjective value of rubies and diamonds. The question is wether the people discovering them did.

[Anonymous No.5700397]

>>5700360
It probably has more to do with the fact that (a) West Africans is a much more specific population group than Africans and (b) sprinting is a much, much more specific thing to have an advantage in than 'cognitive abilities'

So it's a claim that is intrinsically dramatically more plausible

[Anonymous No.5700398]

>>5700360
this anon gets it

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700407]

>>5700360
Nobody but an imbecile accepts the claims that blacks have innate rhythm or athletic ability simply because they're black.Try saying that on Tumblr and you will have a shit storm.

[Anonymous No.5700428]

>>5700360
Because specific genes have been identified which make certain muscles more effective for sprinting, whereas 'cognitive abilities' depend on so many genes that I doubt we can make useful statements about intelligence and race.

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700432]

>>5700397
In pockets of populations where sprinting drastically improved chances of reproduction over thousands of years, there is no doubt an improved capacity for sprinting, but as you said this could hardly be applies to a demographic as large as blacks.

Cognitive abilities wouldn't apply to whites, since peasants who couldn't even read or write or think critically had no difficulty reproducing in abundance among the white population. The case might be made for Western aristocracy, except I don't think cognitive performance was a requisite for reproduction among them either, even if the trait held more cultural value.

[Anonymous No.5700436]

>>5700428
that's a completely pseudo-scientific claim on your part, you basically said 'i don't believe in it because i don't want to believe in it'. you have no idea on how many genes it may depend (and it possibly can depend on a single gene, even a single little change can have a huge consequence), admit it, you never even investigated the matter, you just want to think that it's too complicated so that claim could support your belief

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700457]

>>5700436
I'm personally a fascist, but I have very little reason to buy racism as scientific. Cultural racism is sensible, but not as something innate, there's never been a decent integrated theory that would explain racial discrepancies in biological innate intelligence. It's true that the white race had produced far more intellectual titans than any other race, maybe because we had a higher appreciation for intellectualism and we allowed them to flourish, maybe because freaks of brains are just more common among whites, but the majority of whites are not significantly smarter than blacks even if most smart people are white. The majority of white people don't even know who Thucydides is.

[Anonymous No.5700461]

>>5700386

I meant the guy that the guy I was replying to was replying to.

[Anonymous No.5700462]

>>5700436
>It is believed that biological factors may be largely responsible for the disproportionate success in sprinting events enjoyed by athletes of West African descent. Chief among these is a preponderance of natural fast twitch muscle fibers, which aid in quicker reaction times. Scientists have concluded that elite-level sprinting is virtually impossible in the absence of the ACTN3 protein, a "speed gene" most common among persons of West African descent that renders fast twitch muscle fibers fast.

Compare this to:

>Intelligence is a polygenic trait. This means that intelligence is under the influence of several genes, possibly several thousand. The effect of most individual genetic variants on intelligence is thought to be very small, well below 1% of the variance in g. Current studies using quantitative trait loci have yielded little success in the search for genes influencing intelligence. Robert Plomin is confident that QTLs responsible for the variation in IQ scores exist, but due to their small effect sizes, more powerful tools of analysis will be required to detect them.[105] Others assert that no useful answers can be reasonably expected from such research before an understanding of the relation between DNA and human phenotypes emerges.[86] Several candidate genes have been proposed to have a relationship with intelligence.[106][107] However, a review of candidate genes for intelligence published in Deary, Johnson & Houlihan (2009) failed to find evidence of an association between these genes and general intelligence, stating "there is still almost no replicated evidence concerning the individual genes, which have variants that contribute to intelligence differences".[108]

There's nothing pseudo-scientific about not jumping to conclusions before we have enough evidence. I will happily admit that there are apparent discrepancies in the average IQ test scores of different races, but the theory that 'africans' (a highly diverse group of a billion people!) are uniformly genetically inferior in 'cognitive abilities' (a term you still haven't qualified) is clearly unproven.

[Anonymous No.5700523]

I had just started it when I caught wind that the book may be horseshit. Obviously I can't know if it is or not, myself, but I don't have the time to dump into this fairly lengthy book if it's just going to be garbage.

Any alternatives would be appreciated, though.

[Anonymous No.5700524]

lies my teacher told me was a lot better

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.5700540]

>>5700523
The major anthropologists

[Anonymous No.5701111]

>>5700523
Reading a book that is partly outdated is not always bad.

I actually had a lot of fun reading J.F. Verbruggen on medieval warfare written in 1954. Academic writing back then was different (I like it).

[Anonymous No.5701113]

>>5700523
it's basically just some jewish guy telling you why everything europe ever accomplished since the beginning of history was worthless and just the result of luck, enjoy

[Anonymous No.5701121]

>>5699132
+
>>5699331

Is a better explanation. When people say white or European power it's mostly limited too five or so nations on the Atlantic seaboard of Europe. Never heard of the Swiss, Czech, Italians or German conquering half the world.

[Anonymous No.5701796]

>>5699840
>dualism
>correct
The toppest of keks.

[Anonymous No.5701852]

>>5701113
You forgot the implicit imperialism where lucky Europeans not have to go save the poor savages from not having gas-guzzling SUVs because they didn't have horses.

[Anonymous No.5701864]

>>5699418
>>5699840

Any truck between this and Jaynes' Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of The Stupidly Long Title? I can see points of divergence and congruence, at least implied by the quoted paragraph.

[Anonymous No.5702303]

>>5700314
How trite and sciolistic.

[Anonymous No.5702318]

>>5702303

And yet if anyone would know, he would, no?

[Anonymous No.5702376]

>>5702318
Not really, humans are complex creatures with multiple needs wants and influences in and behind their actions. There is no core impulse behind anyone action and so having the gall to say that one group of people is acting out of a single desire to be racist is a gross oversimplification of human beings and largely demeaning to all human beings.

[Anonymous No.5702416]

>>5702376
>all this bluster
>can't no nuffin

He explicitly said that he "...wasn't saying that" and that itself was in reference to a weaker claim of unconscious racism.

Lee Atwater was a senior adviser in two Republican administrations. If he can't say anything about a racial animus imbuing Republican politics, then indeed no-one can. But equally, then, no-one can say anything about anything.

And all of this is without the phrase 'Southern Strategy' even being mentioned.

[Anonymous No.5702437]

>>5702416
I didn't say ucantnonuffin, just that you can't reduce something as complex as human action to "hurr durr racism". It may well be a part of republican ideology but it is in no way a central belief and cannot be declared the reason behind everything not the presumed reason for action. It makes out the basis of a witch hunt where if something negatively affects another race it is immediately declared racist and to be opposed regardless of any other factor, foundation or motive behind it.

[Anonymous No.5702441]

>>5702437
>nor the presumed

[Anonymous No.5702485]

It's basically Civilization, the book.

[Anonymous No.5702551]

>>5702437
>It may well be a part of republican ideology

That's not even the claim. The claim is that Republicans seek to appeal to racists.

But this is all by-the-by. The kind of high-octane skepticism you're frantically pumping out here is the sole preserve of those who don't wish to concede a simple point well made. Hence you reduce what I'm saying to a claim that Republicans are paid-up Klan members who eat, sleep and breathe The Turner Diaries and can't orgasm without reciting the however-many words etc. You simplify and distort the claim in order to dismiss it as a simplified distortion.

[Anonymous No.5702588]

I think religion also might have played a large role.

Prior to 1525 Europe was not that much more advanced (if at all) than the other major civilizations in the middle east and Asia.

The reformation and franco-habsburg rivalry really created a nice setting for approximately 150 years of infighting after which we emerged with advanced tech, standing armies and navies that could shoot any opponent out of the water.

[Anonymous No.5702644]

>>5702551
The Lee Atwater quote in no way indicates an attempt to appeal to supporters. It reads as an attempt to describe the reasoning behind republican actions/the drive behind their policies.

>The kind of high-octane skepticism you're frantically pumping out
>simply pointing out that republicans may not be solely acting out of racism and saying that it's insulting to everyone to reduce their position like that is high octane skepticism
Okay.

[Anonymous No.5702692]

>>5702644
>The Lee Atwater quote in no way indicates an attempt to appeal to supporters

>You start out in 1954 by saying, “Nigger, nigger, nigger.” By 1968 you can't say “nigger” — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff.

You start out SAYING something. Then, later, when being that overt about it is no longer kosher - when being that overt *backfires* - you "code" it, ie, you SAY it (to appeal to voters) in a more abstracted way. This is what is known as 'dogwhistling'.

>It reads as an attempt to describe the reasoning behind republican actions/the drive behind their policies.

Go back and read it however many times is required for you to be embarrassed at having typed this.

[Anonymous No.5702720]

>>5698134

[Anonymous No.5702841]

>>5702720
tame =/= domesticated

[Anonymous No.5702863]

>>5702841
Guess what's the first step towards domestication

[Anonymous No.5702890]

>>5702863
Breeding in captivity and harnessing

[Anonymous No.5703029]

>>5702692
>they're coding their racism in secret language
That s pretty much what you're saying. Do you seriously believe this?

[Anonymous No.5703203]

>>5703029

I dunno, man. I mean, all I have is a senior Republican analyst expressly saying exactly that. I know it's not much, but...

[Anonymous No.5703549]

>>5703029
people do that everyday in casual conversation

[Anonymous No.5703596]

If you're the average person you'll probably agree with what he says and consider it interesting reading.

If you're actually involved in a field of study like geography, history, etc. that micro-analyzes his ideas, you won't be so easily swayed. He does make some valid points regarding resource allocation, but tends to over-infer the innate abilities of all humans (i.e. everyone, everywhere is of equal ability).

And if you are a pseudo-intellectual dillhole like most posters on this board, you'll hate it just to be supremely edgy. It's cool to hate popular things because it makes you seem unique, which is probably why half of you are also Holocaust deniers.

[Anonymous No.5703646]

>>5703596
cool h8ing the popular way of dealing with stuff on 4chan m8

[Anonymous No.5703676]

>>5703646

I'm reverse-meta-edgy, it's the latest way to deal.

[Anonymous No.5704039]

>>5703596
No-one denies the holocaust took place, but 6 million is an absurd number. A few hundred thousand died at most, mostly from disease and starvation brought about by allied bombing, although actual killings probably accounted for 20-30000 deaths.

[Anonymous No.5704058]

>>5704039

Here is your reply.

[Anonymous No.5705171]

>>5704039