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/lit/ - Literature

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5627091 No.5627091 [Reply] [Original]

Doesn't the fact that we've proven self-awareness in nine different species (chimpanzee, bonobo, orangutan, gorilla, elephant, pig, dolphin, magpie, human) draw question to the claim that humans are uniquely cursed in their self-consciousness? Or is Ligotti suggestion that consciousness itself is damning, regardless of the species it inhabits?

>> No.5627132

I guess it largely depends on whether consciousnesses is a binary state (ie. conscious or not conscious) or a scale of awareness. I don't think Ligotti goes into any particular depth of what he means by consciousness, but he seems to be suggesting a binary opposition.

>> No.5627140

what do you mean proven self awareness?

please dont bring up those fucking mirror studies

>> No.5627167

>>5627140
how can we be self aware if mirrors aren't self aware

>> No.5627176

>>5627140

It takes a more evolved brain to understand its own existence, why do you think the mirror tests are flawed? Don't paraphrase Wikipedia, please.

>> No.5627179

>>5627167
>implying mirrors are real
>implying eyes are real

>> No.5627190

I don't think the notion of consciousness as being peculiarly human, >>5627132 or binary, is actually relevant to anything he argues. He uses the word pragmatically.

>> No.5627204

>>5627091
That second thing you said

>> No.5627208
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5627208

I would rather expand the definition of what it means to be human, personally. I'm willing to allow anything with self-awareness and sapience to call itself human. I very much want to preserve the notion that humans are uniquely defined by their ability to reason.

>> No.5627210

>>5627176
Pigs don't know what mirrors are or tests. So how could they even pass?
I didn't check wikipedia so any similarity is purely accidental.

>> No.5627230

How is it a "curse" that were self conscious? That just means we're smart lmao like how is that a bad thing??

>> No.5627235
File: 39 KB, 387x544, St Thomas Aquinas.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5627235

>>5627208
Humans are unique for more than their self-awareness, it's more their alienation or "outside"-ness and creative will than anything else I think. By alienation, I mean that humans are fundamentally unique or alien as well as separate from other species on earth (controversial, I'm sure, and I could probably word it better), and by "outside" I mean that humans seem to be the only creature capable of conceiving the universe as if from outside, external, or separate of/from it. Then there's the unique "will-to-create" or will to act creatively without any purpose other than the act of creation itself, the desire to create something out of nothing for the sake of it.

I can see where Christians are coming from when they say Man is made in the image of God.

I don't think anything with self-awareness can be called human, but sapience can definitely work if it entails this "will-to-create" and separation or outside-ness.

>> No.5627245

what does it matter faggot liggoti is dead seriously why even ask this question who fucking cares

>> No.5627260

>>5627091
Self-awareness =/= self consciousness

>> No.5627267

The fact that a "philosophy" book won the Bram Stoker Award should say enough. Don't waste your time with Ligotti.

>> No.5627272

>>5627230

it's not a net curse yeah, but it does seem like we are the only species on the planet that has stuff like suicide and personality disorders, most other animals do not have that sort of mental problems which are related to self-consciousness

>> No.5627293

>>5627272
So some mental illness now makes it a curse dafuh??

>> No.5627295

>>5627272
That's not true. If animals didn't have mental issues we would never use them for testing psychoactive drugs. I'm in neuropharmacological research, we actively give rats depression. I don't know how often rats get depressed in the wild but the notion that animals can't have mental issues isn't true given the nature of the brain, they just don't live long at all. Our mental patients live a lot longer because they have resources. Right now their resources are pretty much garbage, but they're better than nothing at all.

>> No.5627898

>>5627260
Where do you draw the line between these linguo-psychological constructs, m8?

>> No.5627926

>>5627272
>it's not a net curse
ayy lmao
inb4 ban

>> No.5627946

vote to ban this anon >>5627926

>> No.5627953

OP's pic instantly made me think of 'Agenda 21'

>> No.5628123

>>5627230
>we're smart lmao
This ironic self-contradiction is almost poetry in its ermeticism.

>> No.5628149

>>5627091
>liggoti
Just read "Better Never to Have Been"

More substance.

>> No.5628262

>>5627208
>I would rather expand the definition of what it means to be human
Consult basic biology.

>> No.5628288

>>5627091
Conciousness itself is the problem, where's just on the upper end of the known spectrum.

>> No.5628380

>>5627140
>ape looks at other monkey with some shit in his hair
>touches the other ape
>ape sees himself in the mirror with shit in his hair
>touches his own hair

>> No.5629418

>>5627091
>proven self-awareness
There's no self-awareness to prove. To suppose that animals aren't aware of themselves is one of the most idiotic ideas that human brains ever shat out.

Kinds of consciousness differ between species though. Ours is the most complex kind, and due to that also the most damning one according to Ligotti. Whatever species receives our sort of consciousness would be damned the same.