/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5565087]

OK /lit/, I really, really need some info.

For the past few days, there have been a few threads on /pol/ about the Frankfurt School and so-called "Cultural Marxism" and an alleged link between Jewish mysticism, satanism, and the Frankfurt School's writings on capitalism and culture. Is any of this true? I know Walter Benjamin was friends with a Kabbalist but I don't recall him ever incorporating Jewish mysticism in his writings in any way (he was an atheist to my knowledge). Same thing with Adorno and co. But is there more to it than that?

One Jewish guy on /pol/ claimed Jewish mysticism is anti-Jewish and pagan/occulist and said most Frankfurt Schoolers were influenced by it. Yes? No?

[Anonymous No.5565096]

Marxism is materialist, it's incompatible with mysticism.

[Anonymous No.5565097]

>this thread again

[Anonymous No.5565121]

Wow, you must really think the white race is fucking retarded to be fooled by the Jews so easily

[Anonymous No.5565123]

>>5565096
I thought that too. But does that mean you can't believe in God and still apply materialist dialectics to history and economy?

[Anonymous No.5565132]

>>5565087
Just be content knowing that this shit (/pol/s activity and believes) has almost zero effect on the real world.

[Anonymous No.5565143]

>>5565087
>implying the Frankfurt School didn't use Hegelian Dialectics
>implying they didn't mix Marxism with humanist Enlightenment values
>implying their cultural critiques were laments about the way capitalism has stained an otherwise great civilization of art
>implying they knew anything about Marxism

[Anonymous No.5565166]

>>5565121
Not me. /pol/.

[Anonymous No.5565651]

>>5565143
>>implying the Frankfurt School didn't use Hegelian Dialectics
>>implying they didn't mix Marxism with humanist Enlightenment values
Althusserian pls go.

[Anonymous No.5565693]

>>5565132

Yes, the fact that for example Kurds and Extreme Islamists basically are starting a civil war right now in Germany has nothing to do with the real world, thanks for all the integratable "Mitbürger" pushed upon us, we all will benefit from this.

http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Der-Buergerkrieg-spiegelt-sich-in-Deutschland-article13753531.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/hamburg-kurden-und-salafisten-liefern-sich-strassenschlacht-13195830.html
http://www.n-tv.de/politik/Hamburger-Kurden-und-Salafisten-pruegeln-sich-article13740611.html

[Anonymous No.5565728]

>>5565096
>he doesn't know about George Sorel and Ernst Bloch

Even i, an anti-Marxist, know about this shit. Shame on you.

[Anonymous No.5565738]

>“Who will save us from Western civilization?”

This is exactly what Georg Lukács said in 1919, when the German and Hungarian revolutions failed and he attributed that to the influence of Christianity, so the people who are "afraid of cultural marxism" are not really wrong, just like the guys who were afraid of "soviet infiltration" in the 1950s were proved to be right in the end.

[Anonymous No.5565822]

>>5565096
Yet it must be compatible with Islam, since most Leftists today would rather pander to Muslims than workers, right?

[Anonymous No.5565853]

>>5565651
Althusser knew way more than fucking Adorno whining about music ever did.

>>5565822
You're acting like religious teachings can't be incorporated into a general ethics that's utilized alongside socioeconomic critique and theory. On a certain theoretical level Marxists generally argue about theology and take a position that the non-material is irrelevant but in terms of praxis most are willing to align with left wing religious leaders depending on political contingencies. liberation theology was more or less explicitly marxist and there's plenty of writing on islamic socialism that predates anything ppl like dawkins have written.

[Anonymous No.5565886]

>>5565853
Marxism doesn't hold any kind of ethical positions. We understand ethics as being justifications for the status quo.

>On a certain theoretical level Marxists generally argue about theology and take a position that the non-material is irrelevant but in terms of praxis most are willing to align with left wing religious leaders depending on political contingencies.
lol you assume I'm not aware of this. I would throw a few to the national bourgeoise in a revolutionary scenario for tactical reasons only but I have no desire to align with anyone whom I know will be a burden on the revolution as it progresses. This includes national bourgeois, religious leaders, bourgeois artists, idealist students, etc.

>liberation theology was more or less explicitly marxist and there's plenty of writing on islamic socialism that predates anything ppl like dawkins have written.

Christianity and Islam are explicitly anti-Marxist. Liberation Theology heavily deviates from Orthodox Christian teachings and much of it is an attempt to shoehorn Jesus into 20th century socialist paradigms. Gaddafi's "Islamic Socialism" was closer to Nasser's Egypt than the USSR, and Pan-Arabism can be highly reactionary. FYI both Gaddafi and Nasser murdered and imprisoned actual communists.

[Anonymous No.5565903]

>>5565886
> Marxism doesn't hold any kind of ethical positions. We understand ethics as being justifications for the status quo.


What exactly do you mean by this? Do you just mean that Marxism in general doesn't, or that Marxists ("we") don't? Because any sort of social action obviously has some form of ethics underlying it.

[Anonymous No.5565910]

>>5565903
Theory and practice are not dogmas. I'm actually quite surprised I have to explain this to a self-professed Marxist, and a self-proclaimed Althusserian at that.

[Anonymous No.5565911]

>>5565886
I never said a marxist ethics existed, I simply stated that religious tenets are often utilized in the praxes of people who otherwise align themselves with a marxist politics.

> I would throw a few to the national bourgeoise in a revolutionary scenario for tactical reasons only but I have no desire to align with anyone whom I know will be a burden on the revolution as it progresses. This includes national bourgeois, religious leaders, bourgeois artists, idealist students, etc.

i think this is poor politics, at least insofar as building a coalition for socialism in developed capitalist countries goes. but by "national bourgeoisie" im assuming youre thinking in internationalist (and third worldist?) terms so if that's your scope i suppose the older categories still apply

>Christianity and Islam are explicitly anti-Marxist

that's presentism and you know it. Christianity and Islam were formulated in a political dimension entirely separate from marxism, one that predates capitalism altogether, and assuming that neither has advanced or evolved in relation to economics is vastly reductive. liberation theology derives most of its theology from process theology, and on a purely hermeneutical level there's plenty of primary writings from both religious traditions that can be seen as an advocacy of proto-socialism. i simply am not convinced religion and marxism cannot exist in tandem.

[Anonymous No.5565918]

>>5565910
that wasn't me m8, also I probably wouldn't consider myself an Althusserian but I do think a lot of the critiques of his reformulation of capital are underhanded and completely outside of marxist thought.

[Anonymous No.5565926]

>>5565911
>i think this is poor politics, at least insofar as building a coalition for socialism in developed capitalist countries goes. but by "national bourgeoisie" im assuming youre thinking in internationalist (and third worldist?) terms so if that's your scope i suppose the older categories still apply
I support NB only for anti-colonial purposes.

>and on a purely hermeneutical level there's plenty of primary writings from both religious traditions that can be seen as an advocacy of proto-socialism. i simply am not convinced religion and marxism cannot exist in tandem.
I was raised a Muslim and can tell you Islam is explicitly anti-Marxist in its entirety. God gives us a political system for this earth that must be followed until the end of time. If anyone deviates from God's Law, then there is no longer an Islamic State and the world is living in de facto ignorance. This is canonical Islam.

[Anonymous No.5565928]

>>5565910
Oh, I'm not the Althusserian. I hadn't before posted in the thread.

[Anonymous No.5565929]

>>5565087
>Is any of this true?
Some of it is true.
>But is there more to it than that?
Yes, some of it is true.

A more nuanced explanation is too long for this post.

The canonical writer if you really want to more know about this stuff is Shafarevich, 'The Socialist Phenomenon'. (Don't know about the quality of the English translation, I read it in the original Russian.)

[Anonymous No.5565932]

>>5565929
So the FS really were influenced by Kabbalah? And /pol/ really is right this time?

[Anonymous No.5565985]

>>5565929
>>Is any of this true?
>Some of it is true.
I don't care how much you'll have to write. I want to know this as well.

[Anonymous No.5566016]

>>5565926
I was raised Catholic so I won't argue about a religious tradition I wasn't raised in, but I've met a great deal of Muslim socialists who dedicate themselves both to Islam and Marxism. Maybe they're just picking and choosing tenets if that's the case, but that's so common in religions that arguing about whether modified religious beliefs are legitimate seems futile.

[Anonymous No.5566024]

>>5565985

this conflation of frankfurt school with mysticism comes from lyndon larouch, but if you ask around pol they will deny ever hearing of him. larouch quotes adorno to mean nearly the oppisite of what adorno himself ment.

[Anonymous No.5566050]

>>5566016
I never suggested Muslim people cannot be revolutionary. Look at the Kurds and PFLP. Rather, I said Islam as a religious ideology cannot be revolutionary.

I should have been clearer with what I meant. It's not the case that someone is a "bad Marxist" if they believe in God. It's more so that Islam is far far more anti-Marxist than Marxism is anti-Islam.

The view of Islam most liberal Westerners have is heavily sanitized and much of it involves shoehorning Islam into post-Enlightenment Christian paradigms, as if the two religions teach exactly the same things or evolved in identical contexts. This is not true. For one thing, most Muslims are not like PoMo hipster American Protestants. They don't play Barthes/Derrida and try to deconstruct the Qur'an so that God's words are totally compatible with a modern, Western lifestyle or modern Western ideology. Quite the opposite. You are not allowed to just have your own interpretation. If you need something interpreted, you go to a religious leader and he interprets it for you. After all, people who have spend YEARS of their lives studying theology and jurisprudence are far more qualified than you with your BA in philosophy and religious studies.

I can't speak about your friends, but from what I've seen, most religious Muslims put their faith first before any secular philosophy.

[Anonymous No.5566056]

>>5566024
There's a reason why we call them "LaRouche's Douches". But I also find it hilarious that Adorno and Marcuse are made out to look like enemies of the West when much of their critiques of art under capitalism were attempts to save the West from itself.

[Anonymous No.5566061]

TL:DR op there are links there yes but they are links in the same way that writing a bunch of terms of down on a piece of paper and connecting them with red sharpie lines links them together

Benjamin and some of the Frankfurt school was Jewish and were interested in Jewish mysticism but the extent to which this influenced their materialist critiques of culture is near impossible to establish, most of them were explicitly anti-mystical in outlook

Cultural Marxism is a scare word invented in the 80s about why your doughy english professor is ruining america, it belongs to the same tradition of ideas that protocols of the elder of zion and the rest of the steaming refuse dump that is fascism belongs

/pol/ is a bunch of mewling children who will come up with anything to make their masturbatory fantasies of victimization and hate seem legitimate and their endgame is the death of billions so they can sit on a throne of skulls with their anime waifus, pls don't be so naive

[Anonymous No.5566094]

>>5566050
So does Islam only function as an epistemological separation from the western context in which marxism originated? or can the situation of most muslims be seen in terms of international capital and the global configuration of empires and colonies?

im just trying to make sense of the position and relation muslim as an ideology and point of cultural origin has to a marxist dialectic. i know in the catholic case there are historical precedents and configurations, but how do marxist muslims navigate that difference? im assuming from what you've just said you don't think the answer is in some form of western secularism.

[Anonymous No.5566108]

>>5565985
>I don't care how much you'll have to write. I want to know this as well.
Shafarevich, 'The Socialist Phenomenon'. Google it and read it. Start from the authentic source, don't listen to /pol/'s third-hand garbled misunderstandings of the message.

[Anonymous No.5566127]

>>5566094
Islam is meant to be taken as dogma. It's not supposed to change as history changes. That's something a lot of Western Christians and atheists don't understand.

Christianity's only strong point is that it can and has evolved. Islam has too, and early Islam was probably just as - if not more - factionalized than early Christianity. But the dominant form of Islam in the world today (Orthodox Sunni Islam) openly teaches beliefs and demands that are completely against the Marxist science of history (HistMat) and the evolution of society in general.

I can only think that most Muslim Marxists cherrypick their religion, which is not what most religious Muslims do. The Muslims I know are all beautiful people but I couldn't imagine any of them becoming communists given what they would have to justify.

Let's not forget either than most Muslim nations never had a chance to progress due to colonialism, and some nations (namely, Yemen and parts of Morocco, Afghanistan, and Pakistan) are still semi-feudal.

[Anonymous No.5566139]

>>5566061
>there are links there yes but they are links in the same way that writing a bunch of terms of down on a piece of paper and connecting them with red sharpie lines links them together
Sounds like /pol/ in a nutshell. I can't imagine /pol/aks making a compelling case for anything without resorting to batshit assumptions.

>Benjamin and some of the Frankfurt school was Jewish and were interested in Jewish mysticism but the extent to which this influenced their materialist critiques of culture is near impossible to establish, most of them were explicitly anti-mystical in outlook
I've heard this too and plan on researching more of it. Hell, Kabbalah isn't even a "Jewish" thing but goes back to the Egyptians and Babylonians. Plato even used it.

[Anonymous No.5566147]

What I don't understand about whole Frankfurt School conspiracy is the fact that it doesn't actually matter if it was any conspiracy or not. Critical theory is subversive to Western culture no matter if some German Jews created it on purpose, for the sake of the collapse itself.

What I find even more ridiculous is the fact that what people describe as "cultural marxism" and attribute it to Frankfurt School is a product of second half of 20th century French faggot attempt on philosophy by Michel Cuckault and his interpretors. It obviously doesn't mean SJWs read Fuck-ooo at all. They parrot some lines in general paradigm loosely based on his power-structure theory

[Anonymous No.5566161]

>>5566147
> It obviously doesn't mean SJWs read Fuck-ooo at all.

I agree and, as an Althusserian Marxist myself, despise SJWs and with they would leave. They are a major embarrassment to those of us who actually care about theory and practice.

[southpaw No.5566162]

>>5565087
In short, we can thank Christianity for the course of human history since the year the Gregorian calendar calls 1 A.D. Even just basic fact checking on hidden documents and art, rarely ever released from Catholic archives, mass genocide, mass persecution, and above all; Massive control on a truly global scale. So much of the misconceptions of our modern Western world can be traced back to the way things are taught in the churches. Even just investigating or addressing others in their irrational chosen-ignorance or mechanical logic (e.g. One worships the trees and the sun. Somebody else comes along saying "You're a satanist.") gives us pretty solid evidence of heavy social conditioning. Why is there so much conditioning? Why is everything so heavily controlled, albeit unnecessarily so? Where is the root of our modern Western civilization? Have we not been raised in and immersed in a world so heavily conditioned? When I look at the roots of our civilization I find philosophies of different kinds, but the theology that people herded to, like meek lambs, was Christianity. Christianity is the taproot of our modern Western civilization. I'm sure we can all think of all kinds of folks that claim Christianity ;) So back to answering the OP's actual question. My answer is no. Apologies for the wall of text. I just find allegations of things like Satanism, and implications that such a thing as Mysticism might be bad, "satanic", evil or generally negative is absurd in such a secular society. A quick anecdote would be walking home from high school (continuation school I might add) to overhear the kid who never picked up a book call someone he's never met or even looked up, like Obama or President Bush, a "satanist" when they don't even read. Admitted, anecdotes aren't very efficient, but I'm trying to point out that the culture they have been raised in uses generalizations of people who are 'different'. Like the terms gentile, faggot, nigger, and the contemporary use of the word heathen. These words are used by the ignorant and intellectually deprived.

Apologies for this wall of text. Not fair, but I thought I might throw some things out there. I never get a chance to even talk about this stuff, so I probably sound like an idiot. Thanks for reading if you came this far in my reply.

P.S.
We don't know shit about pre-Reformation Europe. I'm not advocating church burning or violence. I'm not advocating anything.

[Anonymous No.5566182]

>>5566127

Are you still a Muslim yourself?

Also how does a large chunk of the world's Muslims being non-denominational fit into Islamic orthodoxy presenting itself as the one true interpretation?

[Anonymous No.5566198]

>>5566182
No longer a Muslim. Haven't been for years.

What do you mean by "large chunk"? Most of the world's Muslims are Sunni (over 80%). Granted, there are different schools of jurisprudence but again, individuals are heterodox if they try to interpret canonical texts on their own without any background of Islamic theology.

[Anonymous No.5566230]

>>5566108
I also recall watching a lecture by Peter Lamborn Wilson where he said Benjamin incorporated mysticism and paganism into his writings on HistMat.

[Anonymous No.5566236]

>>5565121
This, the logical conclusion of /pol/s worldview is that Jews are the master race, and white people are completely worthless.

Asians are smarter and more efficient, while Blacks are stronger and don't waste time thinking about unimportant shit, and Jews run the world. All that's left for white people is inevitable destruction.

[Anonymous No.5566272]

>>5566147
seriously go to tumblr and it's all pomo/queer theory buzzwords.

"bodies", "agency", "gaze", "spaces", performance, social construct, etc.

[Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i No.5566281]

>>5566161
Althusser is the Austrian Economics of leftism.

[Anonymous No.5566311]

>>5566281
>>5566161

Althusser is actually an oldschool, genuine piece of shit. But he's also a genuine Marxist, more related in his thought to the core, Marx himself. I can respect that.

Sometimes even as I Sturm und Drang influenced far-righter I find myself closer to this specific breed of hardcore Marxists, like Stalinists than to "human-rights-esque", "progressive", "post-mo" horde of absolute dupes. I don't know man, maybe the dichotomy is false and political axis is in fact a circle?

[Anonymous No.5566313]

>>5566198

The Pew Research Centre estimates there are around 140 million non-denominational Muslims. Their site is being shitty and won't load for some reason but the studies are on there.

[Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i No.5566325]

>>5566311
I respect some aspects of Althusser, his ideas on shaping humanity to its potential, whatever the cost, even if humanity is unwilling, even though I'm far right and he's a leftist. My distaste for him is the slippery way he defends Marx against external threats by using so many words to say you can't disprove Marx except through Marx, and he is very tricky about saying that, which I think is somewhat dishonest and that's why I compared him to Austrian Economics, which basically says the same thing about their own theories.

[Anonymous No.5566328]

>>5565087

cultural marxism is the insane SJW (social justice warriors) progressive insanity that we see from feminists, gays and atheists these days.

For example a girl was suspended in school for saying "bless you" to a student who sneezed. The teacher was a Cultural Marxist Atheist who was "offended".

[Anonymous No.5566333]

>>5565123
The Jewish mind is in an unending dialect with their betrayal of God and self-hatred. Read the favorite of Wittgenstein and Spangler: Otto and his Sex and Character.

[Anonymous No.5566335]

>>5566328
>suspended for offending an atheist
>bless you is offensive

Oh you mean this?

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/21/kendra-turner-bless-you-suspension/14388581/

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5566342]

>>5566328
baka girl
i would claim it was an atheistic blessing if i were her
let the matter which existed before the spirit appeared, sleeping in her slumber, moving in his curiosity to know her, bless you so you won't get ill :3

[Anonymous No.5566356]

What is stunning in this whole "debate" is that not a single person EVER quotes from ANY sources or has a smidgen of real evidence. They can't even articulate a cohesive critical claim.

The people who perpetuate these bullshit conspiracies haven't read anything by any of these philosophers, nor could they comprehend a single sentence even if they tried.

To understand this phenomena we have to consider the subjects making these claims and why they feel the need to make them. My guess is that they are mostly young, white american men who feel assaulted by the rising popularity of "critical discourses" that is beginning to filter into every aspect of their lives, including their online lives (a former sanctuary). They seek a rational explanation for what they perceive as the terribly irrational manifestations of this discourse which paints them as The Enemy. They seek a narrative as why this idiocy has possibly developed.

But they too are hemmed in by a field of understanding which is conditioned and limited by the excesses of an unbridled capitalism and a civil society/political system which is constantly at war with itself. The results of their "investigations" (da joos) are just as irrational as the phenomena they seek to debunk, if not more so. The "true origins" they discover are entirely fictional; they are the product of fear and the inability to rationally and critically engage with the historical changes that are happening in their world.

I'm not saying their intention to criticise things is wrong, or that they feelings of siege are irrational and false. It's just that they don't know how to THINK (nor do their "enemies"). It is ironic that if they actually read the frankfurt school they might actually have some critical tools with which they could credibly and thoroughly resist the apparent siege.

I feel pity for them mostly. All the combatants are thoughtless, though their hearts are aflame.

[Anonymous No.5566380]

>>5565738

>just like the guys who were afraid of "soviet infiltration" in the 1950s were proved to be right in the end

really?

[Anonymous No.5566443]

>>5566313
That's barely anything and I would highly question those numbers knowing what I've been taught. The distinctions between Muslim sects are pretty noticeable and I'm guessing most of these "non-denominationals" are caffeiteria-types who live in the West.

[Anonymous No.5566446]

>>5566230
>taking philosophy advice from a known pedo.

[Anonymous No.5566480]

>>5566443

I would take the empirical data over what an Imam says but that's personal opinion.

10-15% of a population isn't 'barely anything', that's quite a sizeable proportion. Most of those people live in central Asia and Indonesia and to a lesser extent Sub-Saharan Africa.

[Anonymous No.5566501]

>>5566380
You really think the 60's happened on their own?

[Anonymous No.5566505]

>>5566127
Society doesn't progress. It only changes. Humanity doesn't move forward.

[Anonymous No.5566510]

>>5566356
>All the combatants are thoughtless, though their hearts are aflame.

Very nicely put. In this sentence you caught the sense I get when browsing the newspapers and their estranging lust for conflict with absolute economy.

[Anonymous No.5567184]

>>5566356
Any community that blames all their problems on a single group, be them /pol/ with Jews or SJWs with 'muh patriarchy', should be ignored the instant this is found out.

I hate SJWs as much as /pol/acks but at least SJWs give reasons for why they believe in their ideas, regardless of how stupid they are. Butthurt nationalists and traditionalists love to spout "It's destroying Western tradition!" but never explain why that's a bad thing or why they love Western traditional culture so much. It usually boils down to bigotry disguised as caring for other nations' cultures, with all the 'seperate the races for the good of culture' (as in, keep niggers and pakis out of my neighborhood) they throw around.

[Anonymous No.5567191]

>>5566505
I heavily disagree. Was the enlightenment all for nothing?

[Anonymous No.5567192]

>>5565822
I don't understand why liberals think that Muslims are towelhead Marxists.

[Anonymous No.5567198]

>>5567192
Liberals don't like Marxists. They're different things.

[Anonymous No.5567205]

>>5567198
I'm aware. But American liberals have always been knee-jerk apologists for Marxist regimes, see the New York Times and the USSR.

[Anonymous No.5567212]

>>5567205
I doubt it. And even so, you have plenty of American conservatives who think the Marxist regimes were literally the worst thing to ever happen in all history and responsible for the deaths of a 1000 gazillion innocent people. But if a capitalist country murders innocent people, that's fine.

[Anonymous No.5567220]

>>5567212
Walter Duranty, you ignorant faggot. And even after him, the apologetics didn't stop.

>hurr durr capitalism kills people too

100 million people were not murdered in the space of barely a century in order to uphold capitalist regimes.

Sure, you have banana republics and shit, but that evil doesn't change the fact that communism is infinitely more homicidal than capitalism or fascism (outside of National Socialism, of course, but people like Franco didn't engage in genocide of upwards of 12 million people).

[Anonymous No.5567225]

>>5566501
it was the natural result of an unprecedentedly prosperous society. people wanted to be self-actualizing degenerates because they could afford to.

[Anonymous No.5567226]

>>5567205
you're thinking of fellow travelers. a lot of americans who were ostensibly in the liberal intellectual tradition at least felt sympathy towards marxism from a humanistic perspective, although they were never marxists in action or thought. the CIA put a lot of time and effort into making sure those americans established themselves as anti-soviet, effectively ending the possibility of any left-wing solidarity, and after the red scare virtually anyone who expressed sympathy with the USSR was treated as a social and political pariah.

you're not wrong in saying some liberals felt sympathy for communists, but that moment passed more than half a century ago. liberals have been responsible for everything from the cuba embargo to the vietnam war, the only real active left in the united states are the radical groups that derive a lineage from pre-WW2 communist organizations and groups from the 1960s (black panthers, weathermen, angela davis before she became a cushy lecturer, etc)

[Anonymous No.5567235]

>>5567220
>in order to uphold capitalist regimes
Don't you mean socialist?

[Anonymous No.5567237]

>>5567235
No, I don't.

[Anonymous No.5567241]

>>5567220
100 million people die in capitalist regimes every 10-12 years due to corrupt governments and starvation.

[Anonymous No.5567242]

>>5567237
Who was killed to uphold "capitalist regimes"?
I can maybe accept a couple thousand people world wide over the last 100 years, but beyond that you're really reaching.
Even if you add the victims of the Nazis you're still about 70 million or so short.

[Anonymous No.5567245]

>>5567241
>every single person who ever dies from anything but old age in a non-socialist country is a victim of capitalism
))))))))

[Anonymous No.5567247]

>>5567220
I thought you were referring to now.
Walter Duranty was attracted to the novelty of Stalinism and if anything is proof that the Pulitzer never meant anything.

>100 million people were not murdered in the space of barely a century in order to uphold capitalist regimes.
If we ignore for the moment how politicised and questionable that 100 million figure is, capitalism probably murdered as many if not more in the space of perhaps 200 years. Obviously the Soviet Union, China, the Warsaw Pact ect. were oppressive and bad, but I think it's odd that people don't get so passionate about the evils of the Soviet empire and not also, say, the British one, even though in India alone the British killed tens of millions due to various famines.

Also, cool fascism apologising, but I think this whole "let's see which ideology has the biggest numbers and the biggest number is the worst" is very simplistic.

And also, fascism is a capitalist ideology.

[Anonymous No.5567249]

>>5567242

See

>>5567220

> 100 million people were not murdered in the space of barely a century in order to uphold capitalist regimes.
>Were not murdered
>Not murdered

Learn to fucking read.

[Anonymous No.5567251]

>>5567220
Franco is thought to of killed 2 million people, he also came to power in a military coup with the help of hitler. It was where hitler learnt a lot of his military tactics and it is possible that ww2 wouldn't of happened if franco lost the spanish civil war

[Anonymous No.5567252]

>>5565132

a Mayor of a major city is a /pol/linator.
With a 80% certainty level.

[Anonymous No.5567253]

>>5567245
>every single person who dies from anything in a socialist country is a victim of communism
;)

[Anonymous No.5567256]

>>5567245
That is what the numbers came from for deaths under capitalism

[Anonymous No.5567263]

>>5567249
Oh, sorry.

In that case I still don't accept the figure. The Soviet Union killed maybe 2-5 million people, the rest of the second world combined less than another million plus the Khmer Rogue bullshit. I don't know how many died in China, but it should be in the ballpark of 20-30 million at most.
Still less than half of the 100 million.

[Anonymous No.5567268]

>>5567251

not to mention the spanish crushed muh anarcho syndicalist utopia

[Anonymous No.5567270]

>>5567251
Shut the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.5567274]

Are revolutions bad?

[Anonymous No.5567282]

>>5565932

/pol is batshit crazy; as usual they are distorting shit. Walter Benjamin's work definitely had a mystical streak. Anyone who has read the Theses on History carefully will realize this. His life-long connection to Gershem Scholem: there's that too.

While I think Max Horkheimer and the more economical FS (Pollack, etc) were relatively indifferent to Jewish mysticism, it's arguable that the intense mutual constitution of Adorno & Benjamin's work might have stealthily imported such concerns into Adorno's work. I don't think so.

It must be kept in mind though, Benjamin was like Krakauer. He was never a part of the Frankfurt School proper, although he exerted a large influence on them (especially Adorno). He was based in Berlin for a time and Brecht was among his social circle.

[Anonymous No.5567283]

>>5567220
>>5567242
>Who was killed to uphold "capitalist regimes"?
Jesus Christ, kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.5567292]

>>5567242
Why would anyone consider the National Socialist German Workers Party to be capitalist?

[Anonymous No.5567294]

>>5567292
Because of their policies. You know, the thing that matters more than a party's name.

You know the corporation that made Zyclon B is still rich as fuck?

[Anonymous No.5567296]

>>5565693
>basically are starting a civil war

A few hundred protesters beating each other up. Holy shit, dude. RACE WAR RACE WAR ! IT HABBENING

[Anonymous No.5567300]

>>5567294
The nationalisation of industries, redistribution of wealth (lifted from Bismarck) and greater taxation are not traditionally capitalist ideas.

[Anonymous No.5567311]

>>5567300
Post-War Britain did the things you listed. and it was still capitalist. Reformist Capitalism is still capitalism.

Also the Nazis did not nationalise industry. They set up larger corporations, but they were still privately owned.

[Anonymous No.5567312]

>>5567292
"Capitalism" means nothing more than that the means of production are privately owned and run for profit.
You can build different social or political systems on top of that.
The German economy was becoming more and more restricted and directed after 1933, but it remained capitalist.

The extermination of Jews and Slavs, and the enslavement of POWs and foreigners took place in this capitalist system to maximize surplus and productivity (and to further political goals, but the government was aware of the economic effects and incorporated them in their planning).

[Anonymous No.5567318]

>>5565926
>>5566050
>It's more so that Islam is far far more anti-Marxist
Maybe you were raised in a more reactionary/liberal-and-anti-Marxist environment? I'm not second guessing your own experience but what you're describing here
>God gives us a political system for this earth that must be followed until the end of time.
is symptomatic of 'political Islam' but not traditional Islam that hasn't had an uncontested khalif since Muhammad. I know of a Marxist Muslim who would disagree with the interpretation that God has given a preordained political-economic system (which makes sense since I've not see it in writing). Certainly no Muslims were acting under this assumption until the rise of the modern mujahideen

[Anonymous No.5567319]

>>5567312
I don't think the extermination of jews or slavs was planned. Extermination policies only kicked off in 1942/1943 after Germany started losing the war.

[Anonymous No.5567333]

Fucking commies. McCarthy clearly failed.

[Anonymous No.5567334]

>>5567311
Ever hear of a mixed market economy? Every large nation in the west is mixed.
>>5567312
The means of production were not controlled for private profit, though, they were state controlled for state profit. Remember the courts of honour? It was not uncommon in the west for the state to nationalise industries following the great depression.

[Anonymous No.5567337]

>>5567319
>I don't think the extermination of jews or slavs was planned
That's a wrong opinion.
It wasn't planned from 1920 or 1933, or even 1939, but exterminationist policies were put into effect in after the occupation of Poland.

You can probably add the 100,000 or so retarded and mentally ill Germans who were killed to the list too, since they were exterminated because they were a burden.

[Anonymous No.5567342]

>>5567334
>Ever hear of a mixed market economy? Every large nation in the west is mixed.
And? Are you saying a mixed economy isn't capitalist?

[Anonymous No.5567344]

>>5567334
>The means of production were not controlled for private profit, though, they were state controlled for state profit.
That is wrong. The corporations sold their products to the state. The state regulated and set the framework, but generally didn't take direct control.

[Anonymous No.5567346]

>>5567333
Continental Europe had a real problem with commies after WWII. Probably because all the real philosophers (analytics) had been chased out by the Nazis and only 'intellectual' opinionists like Sartre, de Beauvoir, Camus and Foucault remained.

[Anonymous No.5567347]

>>5567337
Sure, the extermination of retards was planned. I was talking about ethnic minorities.

Exterminationist policies weren't really put into effect after the occupation of Poland. Afaik, jews were rounded up in ghettos but not deported to concentration camps. Only in 1942 did the ghetto started being liquidated

[Anonymous No.5567349]

>>5567334
>Every large nation in the west is mixed.

[Anonymous No.5567353]

>>5567342
It is not entirely capitalist, no.
>>5567344
They didn't take direct control, but they did take control. They, the national socialist government, even established its own industries from the ruins of the depression era Weimar Republic.

[Anonymous No.5567354]

>>5565926
>This is canonical Islam.

No it ain't.

[Anonymous No.5567365]

>>5567353
>It is not entirely capitalist, no.
Yes, they are. State involvement is not un-capitalist. Get this idea out your head that free market capitalism is the 'true' and 'natural' capitalism and all other types are deviations. In fact ' state capitalism' is actually a thing. You could argue the USSR was a capitalist country, with just one capitalist, the state.

[Anonymous No.5567373]

>>5567365
A free market would be more capitalist than a restricted market or a market with government ownership and intervention.
>You could argue the USSR was a capitalist country, with just one capitalist, the state
Not really. State ownership is public ownership. Capitalism requires private ownership of capital.

[Anonymous No.5567374]

>>5567347
Jews were assigned something like 600 calories a day and Polish were assigned something like 1000 off the top of my head, and that is not livable.
The Einsatzgruppen also directly executed tens of thousands of Polish within a couple months, and that was just direct mass murder and doesn't take into account the systematic violence perpetrated by Wehrmacht and German police and paramilitary organizations.
While the intention was not the immediate extermination of all Poles, that was a long term goal.
Shit got really real after the invasion of the Soviet Union when hundreds of thousands of civilians were shot month for month, before the Aktion Reinhard camps were even built.
Meanwhile, the attrition as a result of food rationing, ghettoization and mistreatment killed "subhuman" civilians all over the East.

>>5567353
>They didn't take direct control, but they did take control.
Not to the extent, that the system took on the character of a command economy.

[Anonymous No.5567380]

>>5567374
>Not to the extent, that the system took on the character of a command economy
It was very much mixed in favour of the state, especially with small businesses. Probably because large businesses funded the party.

[Anonymous No.5567385]

So wait, STEM right wingers who laugh at us not able to get a job say we're the same people with a disproportionate amount of influence over the changing ethnic composition of Western civilization as well as its discourse?

Where is this vacancy for Western domination I'm not aware of?

[Anonymous No.5567393]

>>5567385
Who said anything about STEM? Do you automatically assume everything you don't like is caused by science, technology, engineering and mathematics?

[Anonymous No.5567404]

>>5567380
I don't think there's a point in trying to determine where exactly on a scale from libertarian to state socialist an economy lies. It's a too complex field and the result would necessarily be useless.

In Nazi Germany, businesses were privately owned and the government bought what it wanted from companies and paid for it with money, as did the citizens. Yes, meddling increased constantly, but this basic fact never changed and thus the system stayed essentially capitalist. Maybe there would have been nationalizations of certain industries if the system had had more time to develop (or rather: deteriorate), but that is speculation.
Private enterprise was completely in line with Nazi ideology and there was no plan to completely switch over to something else.

[Anonymous No.5567407]

>>5566333

I wish people like you would post more.
You have far more interesting things to add than this myopic sociology circle jerk.

[Anonymous No.5567416]

>>5567404
Money isn't inherently capitalist. Money is simply a universally traded good within a market, gold, tobacco, silver etc.
Small businesses were targeted and came under greater control through courts of honour and other such things. Even large corporations could only sell state approved goods to state approved consumers and nations.

[Anonymous No.5567418]

>>5567407
Circle jerks are meant to be fun.

[Anonymous No.5567420]

>>5567416
That doesn't change the nature of the system.

[Anonymous No.5567424]

>>5567393
There is a tendency for "STEM master race" to be posted in the same threads that accuse us of being marxist pigs.
But that poster may be confusing /sci/ trolling with /pol/ trolling.

[Anonymous No.5567425]

>>5567420
It really did limit free enterprise and the whole market economy thing. Very few businesses, if any at all, could practice freely. So it was a planned economy, just with more of an illusion of freedom.

[Anonymous No.5567441]

>>5567416
Aw, poor old corporations, the Nazis FORCED them to make war machines and zyklon B and using slave labour. They're as much a victim as anyone. ;_;

[Anonymous No.5567451]

>>5567441
It's nice to dehumanise the people involved by referring to them as a faceless corporation, isn't it?
You seem to think there is something inherently wrong with what the Nazis did, though. That is a bit strange.

[Anonymous No.5567460]

>>5567441
Unlike IBM, the company that designed the system to keep the jews in order so they could gas them as effectively as possible.

[Anonymous No.5567467]

>>5567460
Why did they even use gas? They could have just shot them and put them in mass graves.

[Anonymous No.5567468]

>>5567460

Interesting. source?

[Anonymous No.5567470]

>>5567451
>It's nice to dehumanise the people involved by referring to them as a faceless corporation, isn't it?
Considering they got out of the war scott-free and continue to make money to this day I'm sure they can survive a few mean words from a pinko like me. Pretty rich of you to talk about dehumanising when we're talking about slavery and genocide though.

>You seem to think there is something inherently wrong with what the Nazis did, though.
Fascism is bad.

[Anonymous No.5567472]

>>5567425
Not a single business can practice freely in any industrialized economy.

When people talk about "planned economies", they usually refer to something with public ownership of production and the government directly interfering with the running of businesses. In Nazi Germany, the government invested and purchased like any other market player, and the running of companies was left to the management of corporations.

If you think that the setting of a relatively strict framework for businesses to operate in changes the basic nature of the economy compared to a state where the regulation is simply less extensive, then that is a view I don't agree with.

[Anonymous No.5567477]

>>5567467
They did. About half of the death in the Holocaust were caused by being shot to death.

The advantage of gazing is that, once you have the proper facilities, the execution are much quicker, require less manpower or material (a bit of gas vs hundred of bullets) and allow for more effective cleaning.

[Anonymous No.5567478]

>>5567467
Bullets are expensive, especially when you are losing a war. I've heard that was a factor, but I think that worship of technology/modernity was a part of it too. Think about the technological forces that had been revolutionizing war since WW1, as well as the link between facism and futurism. (FYI there was recently a great Italian Futurist exhibit at the Guggenheim. might still be there).

[Anonymous No.5567480]

>>5567470
>Fascism is bad
I'm not a fascist. Why is fascism bad?

[Anonymous No.5567482]

>>5567477
Shooting people is also highly distressing for the murderers.
Herding them into gas chambers and having other kikes clean out and burn the corpses is much easier to stomach.

All those doe eyes Jewish cuties looking at you teary eyed before you put a bullet in their head ;_;

[Anonymous No.5567484]

>>5567470
> Pretty rich of you to talk about dehumanising when we're talking about slavery and genocide though
I'm not advocating genocide. I just think you should consider the individuals within the corporation.
>Fascism is bad
You mean,
>I don't like fascism
You see, anon, nothing is good or bad. It's either you like it (yay) or you don't like it (boo). It all comes down to your emotions.

[Anonymous No.5567501]

>>5567472
Only the major corporations had that little freedom granted to them. Smaller businesses were controlled by bodies from the state, as previously mentioned.
Oh, and that approach to business did not last. You see, in Nazi Germany they had abandoned the gold standard in favour of fiat currency. The state controlled the money supply and so we had inflation once again. I guess that was what Keynes wanted, though.
>>5567478
But gas chambers are highly expensive. Especially seeings they require air tight doors and need to be perfectly sealed.

[Anonymous No.5567512]

>>5567482
Yeah, that too. It makes discipline easier to implement and reduce the contact between soldiers and victims.

There's an interesting book by former camp inmate Robert Antelme, called "The Human Species" if I'm not mistaken, about his days in a concentration camp. The part where he describes the arrival of a SS in the camp is pretty telling: the whole facilities were operated with such minimal contact between SS and inmates that the former were almost like demi-gods to the latter.

>>5567484
Are you Dr Tautology ? Because I think I saw Captain Obvious fly towards you secret den near Truism Island.

[Anonymous No.5567517]

>>5567501
>Smaller businesses were controlled by bodies from the state
I haven't really heard of that before.

>But gas chambers are highly expensive. Especially seeings they require air tight doors and need to be perfectly sealed.
Any concrete room is gas tight and the price of a gas tight door is negligible too.

[Anonymous No.5567525]

>>5567501
>But gas chambers are highly expensive. Especially seeings they require air tight doors and need to be perfectly sealed.

But they're mostly expensive once. That's the whole point of industrialization, you design a process that's more expensive to build than raw human work, but that increases overall productivity once it's functionning.

Of course there was a big mesure of fascination to the whole thing, a fantasy of control over a sealed universe. The gaz chamber is that entirely artificial, perfectly under control environnment, were every hurdle is removed by a process where intention or contact with the matter of the hurdle are lade unnecessary.

[Anonymous No.5567527]

>>5567517
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2143818?uid=2460338175&uid=2460337855&uid=2&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&sid=21104890820313
>Any concrete room is gas tight and the price of a gas tight door is negligible too.
No. Not at all.

[Anonymous No.5567541]

>>5567527
Thanks, I'll read that later.

>No. Not at all.
The Nazi gas chambers WERE simple concrete rooms with ventilation and simple reinforced wooden gas tight doors.
They don't need to be air tight for two weeks under several bar pressure, they just had to keep in the cyanide for maybe 30 minutes at a time.

[Anonymous No.5567552]

>>5567541
I'm legitimately worried for you, anon. Have you ever had experience with fine particles?

[Anonymous No.5567555]

>>5566446

>he touched kids so that invalidates everything he says

Classic Marxist.

[Anonymous No.5567556]

>>5567525
Why not just starve them like the soviet pows. It's even less expensive, and you can get some free labor out of them.

[Anonymous No.5567559]

>>5566161
What is it with reactionary marxists? Do you think factionalism will help your cause? That to denounce all post-91 marxist developements in wise? You are no different from counter-revolutionary Kulaks, being stuck in what was revolutionary two generations ago.

[Anonymous No.5567560]

>>5567334
>Ever hear of a mixed market economy?

MIXED?!

Yeah, and who likes money and controls the banks. YEAH! THAT'S RIGHT MISTER. It's the jews. They just want to mix everything. God damn it!

[Anonymous No.5567568]

>>5567560
That was the worst imitation of stormfag I've ever seen.

Step it up, Chaim.

[Anonymous No.5567570]

>>5567568
I really tried, even used caps and all.

[Anonymous No.5567575]

>>5567568
of *a* stormfag

[Anonymous No.5567580]

>>5567570
I have to consult with my rabbi now on how to better my jewish internet defenses.

[Anonymous No.5567600]

>>5567247
>And also, fascism is a capitalist ideology.
Confirmed for fucking retarded

[Anonymous No.5567606]

>>5567198
When Joe McCarthy accused a bunch of people of being communists and spies, the entire liberal establishment of the United States came up to attack him, saying he was wrong.

In the end, he was right, so there are two possible conclusions: either the liberal establishment actively defended communist spies knowing very well what they were doing, which would be treason, or they didn't actually knew the difference between liberals and communists.

I'd say the second conclusion is the right one. After all, "communism" and "progressive" were interchangeable for some time, and the only reason the american progressives broke with the soviets was because they realized Stalin didn't actually wanted to bring communism to the United States, only to make Russia strong.

So, really, the Cold War was a fight between two versions of communism, instead of a fight against communism.

[Anonymous No.5567612]

>>5567268
Good, it's a pity the White movement didn't crush the "muh soviet democracy utopia" in 1917 before it morphed into the Cheka.

[Anonymous No.5567620]

>>5567606
>In the end, he was right
[citation needed]

[Anonymous No.5567632]

>>5567620
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Earl_Haynes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Klehr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Andrew_(historian)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vassiliev
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Bukovsky#Judgement_in_Moscow

[Anonymous No.5567636]

>>5567606
>So, really, the Cold War was a fight between two versions of communism, instead of a fight against communism.
You could not be more wrong. Stop listening to Stefan Molyneux.

[Anonymous No.5567644]

>>5567556
You don't get much labor out of starving people, and you still have to dispose of the body afterwards.

But, indeed, the mortality rate in concentration camps was in great part due to inmates being underfed. Not everyone was sent straight to the gas chamber, at least no in every camp.

But there's still that industrial hygienist fantasy I talked about. It was very important for the Nazis to have a well-controlled industrial process that they could consider rationally designed and reproductible.

[Anonymous No.5567645]

>>5567636
Never listened to him, i'm not a libertarian nor sympathetic to it.

[Anonymous No.5567666]

>>5567644
>you still have to dispose of the body afterwards
The Ukrainians would say otherwise

[Anonymous No.5567672]

>>5567644
You don't have to dispose of the bodies when you gas them?

[Anonymous No.5567715]

>>5567318
>Maybe you were raised in a more reactionary/liberal-and-anti-Marxist environment? I'm not second guessing your own experience but what you're describing here
In America, you get a version of Islam that's highly sanitized. The rest of the world's billions of Muslims are not hipsters who cherrypick their religion to make it compatible with Western political ideologies.
>is symptomatic of 'political Islam' but not traditional Islam that hasn't had an uncontested khalif since Muhammad. I know of a Marxist Muslim who would disagree with the interpretation that God has given a preordained political-economic system (which makes sense since I've not see it in writing). Certainly no Muslims were acting under this assumption until the rise of the modern mujahideen
And that friend of yours is probably in the minority. Canonical Islam states that God has given the world a perfect ruling system for this earth. Go ask any imam and he will tell you this. History is not supposed to go through stages and the state is not supposed to change according to social class, because the class system is supposed to remain unchanged itself.

Iranian intellectuals like the People's Mujahadeen were a very deviant group. There is no way the vast majority of Muslims in the world will accept Marxism if they truly hold that God has given them a perfect political and economic system for eternity.

[Anonymous No.5567724]

THANK YOU BASED MOD FOR REMOVING MY ACTUALLY INSIGHTFUL COMMENT BECAUSE OF A SILLY PICTURE OF HOOKED NOSE INDIVIDUAL ATTACHED TO IT

you truly are worst

[Anonymous No.5567792]

>>5567318
>>5567715
Also:
>'political islam'
This is redundant. All religion is political. All philosophy is political. You can't separate Islam or any religion from politics.

[Anonymous No.5567855]

>>5566446
Why?

Beauvoir was also a pedo, as were Barthes and Foucault. What's your point?

[Anonymous No.5567921]

You are all fools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYVXen5cAPA

This man speaks the truth. Learn it. Frankfurt School were indeed satanic and WERE NOT JEWS BUT SATANISTS.

[Anonymous No.5567985]

>>5567855
Perhaps the French are just degenerate?

[Anonymous No.5568015]

>>5567921
This guy looks and sounds fresh out of /b/.

[Anonymous No.5568044]

>>5567921
>Frankfurt School were indeed satanic and WERE NOT JEWS BUT SATANISTS.
>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.5568182]

>>5566236
This is actually pretty obvious if you look at the average brainwashed 20 something white person, who has been trained to believe they are evil and should open their borders, dry up and blow away. I can definitely say the past two years have erased any notion of "pride" I feel in my race. They sicken me as thinking beings and I just hope I'll get to laugh at them during the cataclysm.

[Anonymous No.5568460]

>>5565087
>that image gets me every time

[Anonymous No.5568993]

>>5567184
>Any community that blames all their problems on a single group, be them /pol/ with Jews or SJWs with 'muh patriarchy'
Patriarchy isn't a group, though. How much have you read on it?

[Anonymous No.5569030]

>>5568993
SJWs are still massive retards though.

[Anonymous No.5569242]

>>5565132
>Just be content knowing that this shit (/pol/s activity and believes) has almost zero effect on the real world.

That won't be true until it's true for tumblr/SJW

[Anonymous No.5569253]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOSafKSw9s8