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/lit/ - Literature

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5556431 No.5556431 [Reply] [Original]

There are people on /lit/ right now who haven't read Patrick Modiano.

>> No.5556443

I'm just so glad it wasn't Murakami or an American author.

>> No.5556451
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5556451

Fuck yeah, it's not Pynchon.

>> No.5556528

Tell me about him, OP. What's his writing like?

>> No.5556532

>>5556528
he's deep. it's deep.

>> No.5556554
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5556554

Fuck yeah!

>> No.5556561

>>5556528
>Tell me about him, OP. What's his writing like?

It's like, very clever post-Joycean writing. You can see some Nabokov elements there - the way he uses words to encapsulate ideas, and there are underlying themes to his narrative structure. He draws upon anecdotes and uses his own personal experiences, and these have an influence on the content of his work.

>> No.5556564

>>5556561
>playing video games

kek

>> No.5556568

>>5556564
Maybe he just uses steam for the software.

>> No.5556571

>>5556528
Pretty dry except his first one (La place de l'étoile, which is a crazy picaresque novel.

>> No.5556580

>>5556554
ugh...

>> No.5556584

>>5556580
let him have his shine, anon.

>> No.5556589

>>5556451
plen

>> No.5556597

>>5556451
>Decide to read Pynchon
>read V.
>sweet book
>read TCoL49
>woah...little paranoid
>read GR
>what.the.fuck.happened.?

I am halfway through it...and I don't really know why this is some masterpiece. I mean, it's good writing except for...when it gets weird.

Like the giant blob thing fifteen pages in

Or the river of shit and stuff getting put into some dudes nose

Like, what?

>> No.5556601

>>5556597
Keep reading. The ending is amazing.

>> No.5556615

>>5556568
i was just kidding.

>> No.5556632

>>5556561

this is extremely my shit

>> No.5556640

>>5556561
that sounds very vague

>> No.5556652

>>5556640
it's almost as if he hasn't actually read any of the books

>> No.5556681

WHO THE FUCK IS THIS GUY!?!?

>> No.5556691

>>5556431
Lucky them. I read at least five of his novels and, aside from "La Place de L'Etoile", they all stunk

>> No.5556717

>>5556691
trop profond pour vous

>> No.5556724

>>5556717
Ouais, c'est ca. Va chier, connard...

>> No.5556730

>>5556597
Gravity's Rainbow keeps getting better the more you read.

In the end, you will finally see.

>> No.5556733

>>5556724
*sonseils fedora*

>> No.5556758

>>5556528

Modiano's writings usually centers on protagonists who live in a hallucinogenic world, have amnesia and are struck with perplexity and alienation. Modernity has won!

>> No.5556806

>>5556554
The disgusting lack of spinal blemishes reveals the obvious unwanted-Christmas-gift-box-setism

>> No.5556812
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5556812

>>5556758
>Modernity has won!
It always does.

>> No.5556837

>>5556806
French paperbacks do not crease on the spine. They are not American junk made in China.

>> No.5556846

>>5556837
>French paperbacks do not crease on the spine.

>Folio
>Not an English publishing house.

>> No.5556850

>>5556554
Other than three of those "Un cirque passe", "Vestiaire de l'enfance" and "La petite bijou", all the Folio copies look like the very latest editions. You clearly rushed out as soon as you heard to buy them. Nice.

>> No.5556856

>>5556846
>Folio
>Not an English publishing house.

It's french dummy

>> No.5556859

>>5556846
Wut m8? It's 100% French, it's Gallimard paperback collection.

>> No.5556865

>>5556806
not everyone destroys their books as they read them, anon

>> No.5556868

>>5556865
No - only real readers.

>> No.5556873

>>5556856
"Folio is a privately owned[1] London-based publisher, founded by Charles Ede in 1947 and incorporated in 1971.

>> No.5556876
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5556876

>mfw murakamidrones get BTFO

>> No.5556879

>>5556868
Buy a Folio, or a Livre de Poche, or a GF Flammarion paperback, and try to destroy the spine. It is impossible.

>> No.5556881

>>5556873
Seriously?? Folio - the one we're talking about - is a paperback collection from Gallimard, a French publisher/distributor.

>> No.5556894

>>5556873
Not the same Folio.

The French Folio is NOT a publisher anyway.

>> No.5556901
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5556901

>>5556431

>> No.5556936

>>5556733
>sonseils
Wut ?

>> No.5556942

>>5556901
Who's the average looking Khmer/Thai hooker?

>> No.5557067

>>5556936
Kek'd at this too

>> No.5557509

>>5556942
Patrick Mundano's wife.

>> No.5557546
File: 1.84 MB, 3968x2232, b7b2bb1a-3df4-11e1-b51b-719723ea87f5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5557546

is this him w/ francoise hardy? (the caption says it is but is his name common?)

>> No.5557553

>>5557546
oh wait it is lol
http://www.lefigaro.fr/livres/2012/01/17/03005-20120117ARTFIG00748-francoise-hardy-modiano-paraissait-desincarnedistrait.php

>> No.5557562

>>5556528
>Tell me about him, OP. What's his writing like?
Everything written in French after Proust is utter, irredeemable shit.

Goddamn, France, how could you fall so low...

>> No.5558191

>>5557562
No.

>> No.5558204

Nice. Looks like we'll be having plenty of French threads from now on.

>> No.5558225

>>5558191
Yes. I dare you to name one good French book written after WWI.

>> No.5558235

>>5558225
In Search of Lost Time, by Proust, Marcel

>> No.5558244

>>5558204
Like that wasn't already the case. Only thing you need to get 100+ replies on /lit is start a thread by: "Why is X French thing so much better/worse than Y Anglo/American thing ?".

>> No.5558249

>>5556589
>plen

>> No.5558260

>>5556936
Ah, "conseils".

>> No.5558264

>>5556431
Sorry but I'm not French

>> No.5558772

>>5558260
Kek. You're translating "tips" as "advice"!

>>5558225
*conseils fedora*

Ever heard about Céline, Genet, Cocteau, Caraco, Gide, Bernanos, Larbaud, Cioran, Rebatet, Aragon, Debord, Aymé, Gracq, Michaux, Perec, Saint-Exupéry, etc.?

And have you even read Modiano?

>> No.5558932

>>5557562
Read some Céline, Giono, Breton, Gide, Valery, Mauriac, Camus, Vian, Cendrars, Cohen before talking.
Bitch.

>> No.5558948

>>5558772
>>5558932
>mfw shitpost produces two legit rec post as its offspring

I'll never speak ill of shitposting again.

>> No.5558955

>>5558225
Idiot.
You didn't know what you talking about.
Go back read Coelho or some other shit.
Read Also the last comments. You maybe learn something in you'r empty brain.

>> No.5558968

>>5558772
>>5558932
You forgot Proust, Marcel, who wrote In Search Of Lost Time.

>> No.5559000

>>5556597
I'm with you. I thought it was just a metaphor at first, but it got pretty damn specific. I'm on page 50

>> No.5559024

finally, another white male

i'm so tired of reading translations like a disgusting prole. has anyone here had success learning another language through reading alone? i'm already somewhat competent at french

>> No.5559039

>>5559024
Working on grammar is a must. From then you can learn by reading (with a dictionary).

>> No.5559058
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5559058

>mfw a franc was french near me
what a terrible people

>> No.5559068

I'd love to read him but I don't know French and like none of his works have been translated.

>> No.5559097

>>5559068
don't worry, i'm sure a lot of his work will be translated in the next five years because of this. that's the wonderful thing about the nobel prize

>> No.5559118

>>5559068
For the moment, Amazon has one or two translated books by Patrick Modiano.

>> No.5559120

>>5559097
I hope so.

>> No.5559129

For those who understand French, these words by Michel Houellebecq about Patrick Modiano are interesting:

"22 août 2005. 3 heures du matin.
Mes premiers souvenirs de la vie littéraire sont sans doute deux émissions d’Apostrophes que j’ai dû voir quand j’avais quatorze ou quinze ans, sans doute à une semaine d’intervalle. Dans la première, Modiano était l’un des invités ; j’en avais eu le coeur serré, j’avais eu de la peine pour lui. La pitié que j’éprouvais était certes ambiguë, car à l’époque j’espérais encore guérir, j’espérais encore ne pas en arriver, à son âge, au même point.
Dans le numéro suivant, les invités vedettes étaient Philippe Sollers et Alain Robbe-Grillet ; à la fin de l’émission, Bernard Pivot avait exprimé le regret que l’entretien ait été modéré, courtois, presque ennuyeux à vrai dire. Cette idée de réunir des plateaux d’écrivains était déjà, au fond, un premier pas vers la trash TV – Pivot en était d’ailleurs si conscient que, lorsqu’il avait affaire à un invité de marque, il l’invitait pour une conversation seul à seul, comme cela se faisait auparavant chez Dumayet. Bref, Robbe-Grillet avait quand même trouvé le moyen, au cours de l’émission, de parler du “numéro d’autiste” de Modiano. Le mépris que j’en éprouvai aussitôt pour lui sur le plan moral ne devait que quelques années plus tard – quand l’idée me vint de lire, peu de temps sans doute après mon entrée à l’Agro – se doubler d’un mépris radical pour son oeuvre."
(1/2)

>> No.5559135

>>5559129
(2/3, damn)

"Cet aperçu précoce sur la méchanceté ironique, la cruauté même qui pouvaient se donner libre cours dans les milieux littéraires ne m’a pourtant nullement dissuadé d’y rentrer, alors que je n’étais guère mieux armé que, disons, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, pour y faire face. En réalité, j’avais complètement oublié l’incident, et je ne m’en suis souvenu que bien plus tard, en lisant Un pedigree, de Modiano.
Je ne pense même pas pouvoir parvenir à évoquer ce livre sur un plan littéraire, tellement il m’a atteint sur le plan personnel. La description qu’il donne de sa mère, jeune ? Une “jolie fille au coeur sec”. Elle s’avère ensuite attirée par les milieux “artistiques” (dans leur variante vulgaire), voire carrément par les voyous – les ressemblances avec la mienne sont hélas plus que frappantes. Pour mon père, c’est encore pire. En lisant le livre de Modiano, j’ai aussitôt revu mon propre père, plongé dans des petits calculs qu’il effectuait sur des feuilles de carnet et où intervenaient le taux du prêt bancaire, le salaire des ouvriers, les réseaux de commercialisation, etc. dans des projets aussi fantasques que planter des clémentines en Corse, élever des boeufs en Argentine ou ouvrir une station de sports d’hier au Népal. Alors qu’il aurait pu, tranquillement, placer son pognon à 2 % à la Caisse d’Epargne, comme le bon prolétaire enrichi qu’il était (période étonnante, quand même, ces Trente Glorieuses où les gens pouvaient s’enrichir …). Mais ce qui m’a le plus frappé, dans le livre de Modiano, ce ne sont pas les ressemblances psychologiques réelles, profondes, entre nos parents respectifs ; ce sont plutôt des détails anodins, presque burlesques, ce qui n’en rend la coïncidence que plus frappante. Comme ce fait que Modiano ait été vieilli de deux ans, sa date de naissance modifiée sur son passeport, dans le but d’atteindre plus vite l’âge de la majorité… Et, le plus extraordinaire : ce passage où le père de Modiano conclut que la profession d’avenir, pour son fils, est de devenir… ingénieur agronome ! Conclusion d’autant plus absurde que son père, comme le mien, étaient des urbains purs, qui n’avaient même aucune notion claire d’à quoi pouvait ressembler la campagne…
Contrairement à Modiano, j’ai obéi, forçant ainsi Robbe-Grillet, que cela met je le sais en rage, à partager le titre d’”ingénieur agronome de la littérature française”. En quelque sorte, j’ai vengé Modiano."

>> No.5559138

>>5559135
(3/3)

"J’arrête sur Un pedigree , qui est pourtant un bien beau livre (ce passage où la doctoresse du lycée, avec une gentillesse qui manque de le faire fondre en larmes, lui demande “s’il n’a pas de parents”…). Si j’en parle, je vais encore me sentir obligé de revenir sur mes propres parents ; et cette fois ça suffit, ça suffit vraiment, parce qu’au fond la vérité, aujourd’hui, c’est que je m’en fous. Je sais que Catherine a l’intention d‘aller voir notre mère en septembre pour la forcer à “s’expliquer”. Je sais pour ma part que je n’en ferai rien. C’est trop tard, l’explication aurait déjà avoir eu lieu, elle ne me servirait plus à rien maintenant. Il y a une phrase dans “La possibilité d’une île” qui dit : “On s’intéresse aux circonstances de sa mort, c’est certain ; aux circonstances de sa naissance, c’est plus douteux.” Comme cela m’arrive souvent, je l’ai écrite sans vraiment réfléchir, pour la formule, avant de me rendre compte que ce n’était rien d’autre que l’exacte vérité."

The end

>> No.5559141

>>5559138
TL;DR: there are striking similarities between Modiano and Houellebecq, even if they are also vastly different on many points; also Houellebecq admires him very much, which usually is a sign of quality

>> No.5559143

>>5559129
>>5559135
>>5559138
Interesting. Not at all like the edgy trashkid I was told Houellebecq was.

>> No.5559146

>>5559143

why did you think this of him?

>> No.5559155

>>5559143
Still a shit writer, though, whereas Modiano is, in comparison, at least reasonably good.

>> No.5559157

>>5559143
Houellebecq is much more "surprising" or "uncommon" than really "edgy" in a 4chan fedora way...

>> No.5559158

>>5559146
Despite being French, my only exposure to Houellebecq comes from /lit (and from rumors of tv show were he created controversies or was talked about in a angry way).

Some here find him good, other call him a hack, but most seem to agree that he's pretty much counter-current and prone to edgy aphorism with shock value.

>> No.5559161

>>5559141

my french is too weak for this, does houllebecq have a strong dislike for robbe-grillet?

>> No.5559162

>>5559157
>>5559146
What's really surprising is how "classicist" the extract provided here sound. It's upper-tier casual twenty-first century writing, with the usual polish that we apparently didn't manage to get rid of even after three centuries.

>> No.5559169

>>5559129
>"Le mépris que j’en éprouvai aussitôt pour lui sur le plan moral ne devait que quelques années plus tard – quand l’idée me vint de lire, peu de temps sans doute après mon entrée à l’Agro – se doubler d’un mépris radical pour son oeuvre."

de qui est-ce qu'il parle là ? de robbe-grillet ou de modiano? pardon ; le français n'est pas ma première langue.

>> No.5559185

>>5559161

Very much.

> Bref, Robbe-Grillet avait quand même trouvé le moyen, au cours de l’émission, de parler du “numéro d’autiste” de Modiano. Le mépris que j’en éprouvai aussitôt pour lui sur le plan moral ne devait que quelques années plus tard – quand l’idée me vint de lire, peu de temps sans doute après mon entrée à l’Agro – se doubler d’un mépris radical pour son oeuvre.

Translated roughly:

>Long story short, Robbet-Grillet had still managed, in the span if the interview, to talk about the "autist show" of Modiano. >I immediately felt contempt for him in a moral respect, on top of which I would add, but only when the idea of reading him >occurred to me, years later, probably little after I entered the Agro [school of agronomy, in all likelihood, noT] a complete >contempt for his work.

>> No.5559187

>>5559158
I think he doesn't even understand how edgy he can sound (he's not wanting to "faire le buzz"). He's more like an indifferent, neutral spectator who thinks all consequences are unimportant.

>>5559162
Houellebecq's style is flat, slightly humorous but also depressive, and rather "classic", yes. He's always writing like that.

>>5559169
He's talking about Robbe-Grillet.

>>5559161
Houellebecq says he despises Robbe-Grillet radically; he thinks Robbe-Grillet is vile on a moral ground, and also a mediocre writer.

>> No.5559189

>>5559169

Robbe-Grillet.

Technically, it could be either, but since Robbe-Grillet is the subject of the sentence before, and given what follows, it can only be Robbe-Grillet.

>> No.5559204

>>5559187
>Houellebecq's style is flat, slightly humorous but also depressive, and rather "classic", yes. He's always writing like that.

It's strange how this smooth classic tone has survived so long, and still has such a grip on the writings of most educated French people. I wonder how worthy would be an exploration of the outer possibilities of the French language be. Studying local dialects, suburban slang and city poshspeak, dwelling on specific but rich vocabulary (French agriculture and farming gave us some wonderful but unfortunately underused words).,travelling to Swiss, Belgium, Quebec, the Antilles, Western Africa, and bringing back some of those culture that were impregnated by the language of Louis XIV. Bastard children at last coming back to their father, somehow.

>> No.5559242

>>5559204
French language is a corset, almost a torture instrument, with precise words that must be used in a precise order. You get molded by it, until you speak a beautiful language; otherwise you are ridiculous (very important thing in France: avoid being ridiculous).

Dialects at the margins of Paris, and even accents, are all considered ridiculous. For example, Belgians who say "nonante" instead of "quatre-vingt-dix" (90) sound like uneducated rednecks to us. Québec is mostly a subject of derision among us (honestly, their accent is hilarious), etc.

Only the slang of Paris can be accepted as the other valid choice (compared to the academic way), and even then it can sound old and vulgar quickly, i.e. ridiculous, once again, if you're not a pure genius -- Rabelais or Céline.

>> No.5559264
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5559264

>mfw when bookies throw in murakami's name because it's recognizable and people will bet on it without knowing how much of a long shot it actually is

>> No.5559296

>>5559264

can i bet on murakami winning a nobel prize in literature in the future?

i reckon he'll get one in 20-30 years

>> No.5559308

>>5559296
Ladbrokes will probably list him in the top five for the next 20-40 years, so you'll just have to bet each year.

>> No.5559313

>>5559308

i meant one of those bets that are long standing ones like 'my son will become a professional footballer'

though i imagine the odds on murakami would be pointlessly low

>> No.5559324

>>5559242
1/2
I think you're exaggerating here. For instance:

>with precise words that must be used in a precise order

French is a bit more lenient than English with word order, and casual speech needn't be that precise.

>otherwise you are ridiculous (very important thing in France: avoid being ridiculous).

I agree that this is a particular constraint in the French tradition of writing (and even in speech). Our poetry is traditionally more afraid of barbarisms and excess than most.

>Dialects at the margins of Paris, and even accents, are all considered ridiculous.

That's because Parisians are cunts and mostly because it's fun to bash accents. True, we have some hefty measure of cultural centralization, with the academy and the various stage of territory unification through teaching French. But at the end of the day, France is still a country where more than a dozen languages are spoken by natives alone, and nobody who study French seriously would deny that is part of our identity. I mean, we have a writer who got the Nobel Prize for a book he wrote in a modernized southern dialect he recomposed himself.

That dialect is part of a group of several languages that were already part of the European canon at the time of Dante.
Only some strange, Parisian-centric myopia can have convinced us that we can only write like pseudo-classicists.

>For example, Belgians who say "nonante" instead of "quatre-vingt-dix" (90) sound like uneducated rednecks to us.

Actually I find it charmingly outdated, a bit like I imagine an English nobleman would be. Your comment also applies to Brits and Americans, by the way.

>Québec is mostly a subject of derision among us (honestly, their accent is hilarious)

That can't be denied. You can only believe some Greek god with a sly sense of humor designed the Quebecois accent for them to be made fun of in all eternity.

>Only the slang of Paris can be accepted as the other valid choice

Again, that's true mostly for Parisians. But that slang is itself pretty fascinating. Some words have been into it for centuries, but a lot change evry other three years. I've known people who managed to convey genuine intelligence while speaking that slang. I wish we had more cultural experiment like "L'esquive", which feature non-professional teenage actors, with lines spread between Marivaux's brillant wit and the kid's own slang.

Valéry praised the Belgian writer Emile Verhaeren and was friend with Rilke, who wrote some of his poems in French. He also had a correspondance between a Chinese poets who, in Valéry's word, "always offered an insightful and novel view on French literature".

We are English's underdog by virtue of circumstance, not by the weakness of our virtue. That language *could* be a pancontinental language, an ongoing experience.

>> No.5559332

2/2

You have some points, but I feel like I'm reading an umpteenth generalization about the rigor of the French language (rigor mortis !). It is a fact because we let it be a fact. The potential of French, as a phenomenon that's spread accross three continents, is to my eyes largely underharnessed.

>> No.5559439

>>5559324
Precision is key in written language. English feels much less precise in general (you couldn't say "this language feels" in French, it is too vague, what do you want to say exactly? that YOU FEEL the language ACTUALLY IS like that? or that the language SEEMS to be like that? how could a language "feel" anything?). Word order is maybe just as fascist in English, but try to write in French verse and you'll feel repressed as hell.

And who reads Frédéric Mistral instead of academic writers?

Cioran wrote wonderful pages about the torture of the French language, and most non-native speakers told me the same thing (like the French language was a terrible diet they were trying out to become handsome -- it is not especially difficult, but constraining above all, and a lot of efforts are needed because they felt gibbering was unacceptable, and the beauty of the language alone deserved some deeper learning -- note that educated Africans, and also some Lebanese people, talk a beautiful French who's often purer than the one used by 95% of native speakers).

Nonetheless, I admire the blog "Fils de Putes de la mode", the author is an absolute genius with heavy use of slang and mediocre spelling: http://fdpdelamode.com/

>> No.5559491

>>5559439
is this blog supposed to be france's answer to maddox? because it looks like it

>> No.5559503

>>5559491
He is much, much more talented than Maddox, and less nerdy of course. But you're quite right in a way.

>> No.5559525

>>5559439
> English feels

That is a typically English way of phrasing, so it will naturally be hard to translate. You could say "ce language me paraît imprécis/me laisse l'impression d'une grande imprécision" ("this language looks imprecise/leaves me a feeling of wide imprecision"). It's a bit pedantic but does the job. A more speech-like translation would be "On sent que ce n'est pas précis" ("one can feel that it's not precise"). Ultimaltely it's one of those native expression that hasn't any satisfying equivalent in most other languages.

> but try to write in French verse and you'll feel repressed as hell.

I have tried to write verses in French an in English. Both feel pretty repressed, and profligacy at verses boils down to good ear and closely criticized practice, from what I've seen.

>And who reads Frédéric Mistral instead of academic writers?

Those who can, so a sizeable portion of adults in the South (provided they're into lit, but they could at least). I wish I had more time to learn languages, because provençal sounds interesting as fuck. I doubt it's very hard once you got a hang of it. It's probably easier from a native French than learning to read English at literary fiction level.

>(like the French language was a terrible diet they were trying out to become handsome -- it is not especially difficult, but constraining above all, and a lot of efforts are needed because they felt gibbering was unacceptable

I like this comparison. It's pretty accurate. Yet:

>note that educated Africans, and also some Lebanese people, talk a beautiful French who's often purer than the one used by 95% of native speakers

Should hint at the real reason behind this: historically and academically refined language. An African studying in a French highschool of Africa would probably be drilled through the rather demanding common core of 30 years ago. Metropolitan France can't handle that kind of discipline anymore, due to too many students and not enough money. As you see, it boils down to politics and funding once again.

Someone who would learn French from a decent basis of Grammar + immersion in the outskirts of Paris would develop a casual speech like the one of many natives. That casual speech isn't significantly more harmonious than casual American English. Perhaps its stupidity is less conspicuous, due to French being less conspicously accentuated. But it's not that big a difference.

>http://fdpdelamode.com/

Just read their two most recent article (Poutine and fathers). It's gold. But it's also a more exuberant version of the slang educated parisians will use in daily conversation. Problem is we're too prone to equate French with good French. We've underestimated the value of bad language, this is the price we pay for three centuries and a half of literary finesse.

>> No.5559531

>>5559491
Don't know who maddox is, but that fdp roxxe du poney.

>> No.5559585

>>5556443
>American Author
What's the problem with american author?. Or are you some "muh cultural imperialism" faggot who makes decisions on whats good and bad based on identity?

>> No.5559604

>>5556758
>>5556812
>in my lofty mind...

>> No.5561041
File: 11 KB, 300x300, hmmmmnmm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5561041

>born 1945
>all novels are about france 1940-1944

>> No.5561064

>>5561041
Conclusion: the French are obsessed with their failures.

>> No.5561081

>>5556431
I'm french and he is a mediocre writer. Like almost every Nobel Prize ever.

>> No.5561083

>>5559204
I speak French, and I hate the written language. (Then again I learned it in Lausanne and I think Canadian French is best French.)

>> No.5562310

>>5561083
your opinion means nothing then.

>> No.5562720

>>5556561
Does he use that style where he connects clauses with conjunctions? That's how you tell if someone's really avant-garde.

>> No.5562747

>>5557562
morpion

>> No.5562767

>>5558968
before WWI