Can we have a discussion about the greatest book of the 20th century? Daily reminder that if you hate the book because you had to study it in high school you have no right to be on /lit/.

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Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:49:00 2014 No.5507446 [Reply] [Original]

Can we have a discussion about the greatest book of the 20th century?

Daily reminder that if you hate the book because you had to study it in high school you have no right to be on /lit/.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:49:56 2014 No.5507451 I'm reading it right now for the first time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:50:12 2014 No.5507454 >>5507446 Are you serious on saying that this is a good book?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:52:10 2014 No.5507468 >>5507454 Tell me exactly, in your own words, what you think is wrong with it.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:52:23 2014 No.5507469

>>5507446
I didn't really "get it".
I mean I pretty much got the gist of it but I don't see why it was terribly literary in nature.
It wasn't necessarily witty or technical or philosophical or substantial. It just kind of had a neat story that sputtered along like a early-1900s cab through the Jazz age.

I would reread it to see if I missed anything but I just didn't make a connection to it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:52:46 2014 No.5507474 File: 49 KB, 440x600, ignatius.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5507446 > the greatest book of the 20th century >a book about degeneracy, a whiny bitch and bad prose. Hell no.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:53:23 2014 No.5507478 >>5507469 >It wasn't necessarily witty or technical or philosophical or substantial. Why would you think any of those things would give a work merit?

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:56:05 2014 No.5507496

There is literally no point discussing this book, or any book studied in high school on here OP

This book is rampant with high schoolers and people who are 1-2 years out of high school who are still butthurt about the fact that had to do actual analysis of a text.

Like The Catcher in the Rye, it is forever doomed among most people simply for the fact they were forced to look at it deeper than its straightforward plot.

I'd delete the thread if I were you, and go and discuss it somewhere else, where the average age isn't 18.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:57:10 2014 No.5507501 >>5507496 >This book This board*

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:57:55 2014 No.5507506 >>5507468 It might have some good insights, expressions and canevoke some feelings but it's not very interesting. Yeah, you love Daisy in a complicated way, lets advance now but it never moves forward.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:58:13 2014 No.5507510 >>5507446 You calling this the greatest book of the century is both an insult to many writers and a self-acknowledgment of how little you know about literature.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:58:43 2014 No.5507514 >>5507506 >opinions

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:59:22 2014 No.5507523 >tfw I love the prose up until Daisy is introduced If Fitzgerald cared less about storytelling and more about being a gorgeous writer, he could've done some amazing things

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 22:59:47 2014 No.5507527 >>5507510 >an insult Tell me what you think are some works more deserving and I'll tell you why they would also be >insults

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:00:41 2014 No.5507532 >>5507527 The only 3 acceptable answers are anything written by: Kafka, Joyce or Borges.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:02:48 2014 No.5507547 >>5507514 Please don't disturb our conversation anon.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:03:22 2014 No.5507550

>>5507478
There was just nothing remarkable about the text, is what I meant. It's sort of like a Peter Frampton song: everyone is generally cool with it playing on the radio, they might pick up an album once in a while... Maybe they'll even go to a concert when he's in town for "the social aspect". but nobody's-and I mean nobody's-favorite musician is Peter Frampton.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:03:28 2014 No.5507551

>>5507532
Wow, you have so much knowledge of literature, those names are so much more obscure than Fitzgerald!

>only 3

That's more of an insult than mentioning a particular work.

And Borges?... Tell me what work of his would be considered the best of the 20th century. If you say Ficciones I will laugh.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:03:29 2014 No.5507552 File: 213 KB, 500x377, 1359685979308.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5507446 The fact that you think one has an earned right to be /lit/ is pretty pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:03:51 2014 No.5507556 sorry dude but there's no way a story about two american eggs is the best story of the 20th century

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:05:23 2014 No.5507567 >>5507551 Who said knowledge = obscurity of the writer? Please avoid mentioning Borges if you can't even understand the masterwork Ficciones is. His poetry is even better.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:06:17 2014 No.5507573 File: 28 KB, 310x450, absalom51.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5507446

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:08:54 2014 No.5507588 Where do you draw the line between "literature" and "extended social studies anecdote"?

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:09:00 2014 No.5507589

>>5507567
>His poetry is even better.

LOL

Borges is primarily known as an essayist, but to him, there is no clear distinction between fiction and non-fiction.

He thought of himself as a more of a poet than anything else, but his other work is vastly superior to his poetry, anybody with half a clue about him could tell you that, which leads me to believe you haven't actually read him.

Ficciones is not a 'masterwork' it is a collection of short stories.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:10:54 2014 No.5507601

>>5507589
>which leads me to believe you haven't actually read him

pffffffffffff, hahahahaha

I'm Argentinean, let me tell you, if there's one thing I've sure read is Borges. Keep trying to understand his poetry in your stupid translation, I'll be here enjoying one of the best writers of the past century

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:11:01 2014 No.5507602

>>5507446

People on lit aren't subtle enough to pick up that the book is doing a lot of what the more conspicuously modernist epics are doing while also being appreciable in many ways by regular readers. Gatsby is to Ulysses what the Wasteland is to the Cantos.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:11:59 2014 No.5507605 >>5507601 Man, cortala con la medida de pija.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:12:44 2014 No.5507611 >>5507446 The Great Gatsby is minor Fitzgerald

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:13:16 2014 No.5507614

>>5507601
>I'm Argentinean, let me tell you, if there's one thing I've sure read is Borges.

I'm already inclined to not believe you because you demonstrated your lack of knowledge about him already.

>Keep trying to understand his poetry in your stupid translation

This only further accentuates your lack of knowledge on him, seeing as you don't know his stance on translations:

http://www.borges.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/1909.pdf

Keep trying, though--it's quite amusing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:13:48 2014 No.5507620 >>5507589 >Ficciones is not a 'masterwork' it is a collection of short stories. dat autism

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:15:08 2014 No.5507625

>>5507605
Es la verdad. Así como, lamentablemente, casi todo el resto de la historia de la literatura es una traducción, afortunadamente Borges fue argentino.
>>5507614
I know his stance on translations, I've even read his Faulkner ones. That doesn't mean meaning is not lost in them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:15:53 2014 No.5507632 >>5507620 What has autism got to do with this? Ficciones is a collection of his short stories that were already published.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:19:03 2014 No.5507651 >>5507625 The fact that you actually said "your stupid translation" proves you don't know his stance on translations. So, you either disagree with him, or you don't know anything about it. Which one is it?

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:20:06 2014 No.5507656

>>5507625
Estoy leyendo Mujica Lainez, que no le di mucha bola en la secundaria, y estoy "cagando ladrillos" con su prosa. Tenés recomendaciones locales? Aparete de él y Abelardo Castillo realmente no tengo mucha idea. Y es una cagada ser un vende patria leyendo Pynchon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:20:53 2014 No.5507665 >>5507651 Borges stance on translation isn't the whole truth about translation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:21:31 2014 No.5507673 >>5507665 So, the whole truth of translation is that they are "stupid"?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:22:01 2014 No.5507676 >>5507651 I disagree, but I don't think it necessarily goes against Borges. >>5507656 Hablan muy bien de Aira, pero la verdad que no leí nada. A mí me gusta mucho Girondo, si tenés ganas de leer algo de poesía.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:23:30 2014 No.5507680

>>5507673
I'm not that anon, I'm just pointing out that your strong appeals to Borges stance on translation aren't actually arguments for the quality of the translations of his work. Maybe if you talked about the supervised translations? Even then. Poetry is widely considered to be extremely difficult to translate, and even the best translations usually compromise heavily.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:25:41 2014 No.5507693 >>5507676 >>5507680 I was more trying to expose that idiot as someone who is desperately trying to lean on the translation argument for credibility in his unknowledgeable post. Even in his native language his poetry is subpar.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:27:01 2014 No.5507701 >>5507693 I'ts not subpar by a long shot. Anyway, you have already proved yourself to be a retard with your claims on Ficciones.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:28:01 2014 No.5507705 >>5507701 It is subpar to the rest of his work. What are my claims on Ficciones? That it is a collection of already published short stories?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:29:26 2014 No.5507713 >>5507705 That is not a masterwork because of that. I don't understand how that fact affects the value of the work.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:33:47 2014 No.5507726

>>5507713
The title 'Ficciones' means Fictions in English.
They were never written with the intent to be collaborated, it is just a convenient way for people to purchase a collection of his stories instead of sifting through the magazines they were published in.

That is the entire purpose of the book, convenience for the consumer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:37:28 2014 No.5507740 >>5507496 Or A Separate Peace. I swear, if I have to hear one more fucking mouthbreathing retard talk about how it was "So stupid, Gene was soooo gaaaaayyy, lol, so stupid, so gay"...

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:37:49 2014 No.5507743

>>5507726
I know what Fictions means.
>They were never written with the intent to be collaborated,
So, let me get this straight. You first quote Borges stand on translation and then you appeal to the original intent of the author?

>it is just a convenient way for people to purchase a collection of his stories instead of sifting through the magazines they were published in.
>That is the entire purpose of the book, convenience for the consumer.
So? It's a book which contains several great stories, more than any other of his books. Pierre Menard and Tres Versiones de Judas by theirselves are difficult to top.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:41:27 2014 No.5507757

>>5507743
>So, let me get this straight. You first quote Borges stand on translation and then you appeal to the original intent of the author?

It is not a work like Ulysses or The Great Gatsby, the stories in Ficciones, great as they are, are conveniently packaged for the benefit of the customer.

The stories do not intertwine, they no have relation to each other, they cannot be added together to form 'one work'--it doesn't work like that.

You must be implying that one or more of the stories in the collection but be a separate contender for the greatest work of the 20th century.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:42:31 2014 No.5507763 >>5507757 >but be must be*

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:43:31 2014 No.5507768 >>5507532 Um, Proust, dude. And Beckett.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:47:16 2014 No.5507785 It's not even the best American book of its era (though it's in the top 10), as that would be As I Lay Dying.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:48:43 2014 No.5507797

>>5507757
The lack of an organic unity is precisely the search of literary vanguardism. The fact that the stories don't interwine and most importantly, that they can't be added togheter is not only not an argument but a confirmation of Borges fragmentary style. I could single out which ones I think are the best there, as I have, but I don't think I need to do that.

Want to critize America as well for being unfinished?

You shouldn't try to look for an unity of meaning in books that don't look for it.

>>5507768
One step below.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:48:57 2014 No.5507799 >>5507785 great works are not bound by eras

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:50:30 2014 No.5507806 >>5507797 >a confirmation of Borges fragmentary style It is not a confirmation of any style. It is a collection of short stories, like any other collection of short stories by any other author. How is this hard to understand?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:50:38 2014 No.5507807 >>5507799 Nevertheless, it came out of one.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:52:06 2014 No.5507819 >>5507446 Pretty good gay literature, but I stopped reading once I realized it wasn't for me. Plus I was mad that Nick would probably use me for my dick and then throw me away like he did that guy in Tom's apartment building

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:52:14 2014 No.5507821 >>5507806 I guess just as hard as understanding that doesn't reduce it's value as a book with different stories.

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:53:04 2014 No.5507830

>>5507676
Aira patina cada tanto, pero saca tantos libros que es dificil saber si te viene algo genial o algo desastrozo. Tengo entendido que no edita nada de lo que escribe, y aunque de ser así implica un malgasto de material ya de por sí excelente que podría ser mucho mejor, cada tanto te comés un par de páginas que ni dios sabe para qué están. Lo siento muy parecido a Mario Levrero en ese sentido.

Vengo pateando hace mil ponerme con Girondo, igual no tiene tanto escrito. ¿No hizo la gran John Kenedy Tool y se ahorcó?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:54:50 2014 No.5507841 >>5507821 It doesn't reduce the value, but the book as a whole is not viable for a contender to the greatest work of the 20th century, only the separate stories are

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:55:12 2014 No.5507844 >>5507785 I wouldn't even consider As I Lay Dying the best Faulkner book, it's great of course, but not his best.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:57:21 2014 No.5507862 >>5507532 Kafka, Joyce, Proust, and Beckett, with Ulysses as the greatest novel of the century.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:57:27 2014 No.5507865 >>5507446 The greatest book of the 20th century is easily GEB. Can we have a discussion about that?

Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:57:42 2014 No.5507867

>>5507830
No sé de qué murió, tenía entendido que había tenido algún tipo de accidente. "Veinte poemas para leer en el tranvía" es espectacular, si "Croquis en la arena" no es mi poema favorito, pega en el palo. Después fue progresivamente yéndose más y más a la vanguardia hasta "En la masmédula" que es muy experimental. Prefiero lo primero yo.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:58:41 2014 No.5507872 >>5507862 And Wallace Stevens' Collected Poetry

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:58:46 2014 No.5507873 >>5507841 Whatever. Is Pierre Menard a contender?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 29 23:59:43 2014 No.5507878 >>5507844 Sound and Fury

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:01:58 2014 No.5507890 >>5507872 If we're going to include poets, then you can't forget about Yeats, Eliot, Pessoa, Rilke, and possibly others.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:02:05 2014 No.5507892 >>5507873 That was one of my favorite of the stories, but I wouldn't say so.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:03:08 2014 No.5507899 >>5507872 >collected only an individual poem can represent the best work

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:03:45 2014 No.5507902

>>5507867
Se consigue una compilación de todos sus poemas dentro de todo fácil, no? Me suena haberla visto, pero cuando la busque seguro que va a llevar años sin editarse.
No estás tan interesado en prosa, no? Hace rato que estoy buscando recomendaciones locales y siempre cae más o menos en lo mismo, entiendo que nadie quiere quemarse con esos escritores fantasma cuando podés comprar una edición de anagrama de un clásico por menos plata, pero me jode estar más conectado con la actualidad internacional que la local.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:04:54 2014 No.5507907 >>5507890 I would add Celan to that list.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:05:00 2014 No.5507909 >my writer has the higest power lovel I tough this kind of trash was beneath even /a/ and /co/

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:06:02 2014 No.5507911 >>5507899 False. But if you are uncomfortable with a "collected works" being up these, then I would say Stevens' "Harmonium"

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:07:16 2014 No.5507913

>>5507902
No sabría, pero algo debe haber seguro. Yo tengo la mayoría de sus libros por separado.
Leo mucha más prosa, pero estoy casi en la misma que vos. No es por una negación -consciente por lo menos- a leer cosas de acá, pero casi siempre termino leyendo escritores de otros lados. Te iba a decir Pauls que leí El Pasado hace poco y me gustó, pero con el comentario de Anagrama me lo tiraste abajo, ja. ¿José Bianco, por ahí? Le gustaba a Borges.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:07:23 2014 No.5507915 >>5507909 moderately better than "where should i start with", "should I read" threads

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:10:54 2014 No.5507935 >>5507902 Ahora que me acuerdo, si estás en capital y pasás por la casa de Losada en Corrientes tienen algunos libros de Girondo muy baratos.

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:11:33 2014 No.5507940

>>5507913
Tood bien con Anagrama, tendria muchos menos libros si tuviera que pagar lo que Mondadori pide por esas páginas que son 50% marco en blanco. Nada más que son el "go to" cabeza a la literatura, leí Big Sur de Kerouac editado por gente que le interesaba la obra en particular y era un mundo de diferencia (Adriana Hidalgo, tienen re poco pero todo bueno)

No lo tengo a Bianco, me voy a fijar después. Gracias!

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:13:19 2014 No.5507948 >>5507797 >The lack of an organic unity is precisely the search of literary vanguardism HIGHLY debatable.

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:14:09 2014 No.5507951
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>>5507935
>si estás en capital y pasás
ay! me estás invitando a salir? que amor!

No, mentira, disculpá. No soy de pasarme por Baires, pero cuando tenga una excusa para pasar me fijo. Ahora a la cama que este es buen horario para los australianfags y nadie más.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:16:02 2014 No.5507963 >>5507948 I'm quoting Bürguer's Theorie der Avantgarde.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:17:18 2014 No.5507971 >>5507951 Jaja, fijate si pasás. Soñá con Borges.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:28:14 2014 No.5508034 >>5507446 Greatest Book of the 20th Century : Ulysses Great American Book of the 20th Century : The Great Gatsby

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 00:45:10 2014 No.5508116 McCarthy's "Blood Meridian" is up there as far as best American novels of the last 50 years is concerned. Y'all sleepin on that nigga.

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 01:08:22 2014 No.5508185

Well if anyone actually wants to talk about Gatsby, I will agree that it's probably not the #1, but I'd probably consider it one of the most accessible books of the 20th century.

1. The prose wasn't a chore to get through. We can agree that Nabokov and Joyce have also written some of the most significant novels of the 20th century and are considered masters at prose, but I have to go through it at a snail's pace because the prose so so goddamn dense. Fitzgerald, and Hemingway for that matter, make it easier me to engross myself in the story struggling with every page.

2. The themes of the book still apply, perhaps even moreso with regards to materialism. People still chase after still deluded by their dreams and don't realize that their goals are shit when they finally get close enough to directly inspect it.

Maybe not the best book of the 20th century, but one of my favorites at least.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 01:09:41 2014 No.5508192 >>5508185 Why do plebs always think that the prose is automatically better if it is more complicated? smh

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 01:10:51 2014 No.5508196 >>5508185 So many typos lol. easier to engross myself in the story without struggling *Deluded people still chase their dreams and don't. .

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 01:14:57 2014 No.5508206 >Period Novel >Great cChoosee wisely

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 01:18:56 2014 No.5508218 >>5508206 War and Peace?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 01:25:43 2014 No.5508233 >>5508206 gatsby is not a period novel

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 03:51:09 2014 No.5508495

>>5508192
Better prose is better. I disagree with the relative importance of Nabokov, but Joyce did astonishing things with the English language and with the form of the novel as such. For bare prosaic lyricism (which is FSF's biggest selling feature), Joyce competes with the best FSF ever wrote by the end of "Dubliners", to say nothing of PotA, let alone Ulysses.

FSF and Joyce both knew the latter was greatly superior, too. Look up the story of their first and only encounter, during which a drunken Scott fawns embarrassingly over the Magician, beta-begging for papa Joyce's approval.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 04:02:43 2014 No.5508513 >>5508495 http://www.todayinliterature.com/stories.asp?Event_Date=6/27/1928

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 04:29:52 2014 No.5508554

>>5508495
Joyce's style is an incredibly unique and original form.

Don't think because some of Joyce's prose is complicated means it is inherently better, actually realise how he is using the language to evoke feelings and imagination.

It is not the complication of the prose that makes it good, or better, it is the skill of the author--regardless of whether simple or complicated prose is their style--using words to evoke the feelings they want to evoke.

This is where 'purple prose' comes from, because too many writers think that if they use complicated sentences, words, phrases, etc--it makes it good. It doesn't.

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 04:37:25 2014 No.5508564

>>5508554
Lulz @ later Joyce working to "evoke feelings". Plus, in that post I was talking about lyricism, not complexity. Since this is what Scott's prose is most laudable for, and since Joyce beats him at this game (as well as many others), I'm pretty confident in my judgment of his superiority.

Make a selection ;)

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 04:42:57 2014 No.5508573 >>5508564 I never once said Fitzgerald is better than Joyce, or vice versa I'm not OP, I don't go around proclaiming the 'best book of the century is my opinion'

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 04:49:10 2014 No.5508584 >>5508573 Well if you did decide to do so, you would be correct in opining that Ulysses is the best book of the 20th century.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 04:50:12 2014 No.5508586 >>5508584 4 teh lulz

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 05:01:12 2014 No.5508610

>>5507446
Didn't have to study it. Read it. Was shit.
I don't think I've ever regretted reading a book, but this would be it. And it is not only for that having read it makes me feel superior to yet another small chunk of you fucks who think some turd holds any merit at all.

Ugly, awkward prose for an ugly, awkward book. It will not be remembered and I'm glad.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 05:04:12 2014 No.5508619 >>5508610 :^)

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 11:13:56 2014 No.5509564 >>5507951 >>5507971 >Raires >Rorges Were just trying to make some charming joke on my weird typo? How sweet of you.

Anonymous Tue Sep 30 14:50:33 2014 No.5510442

>>5508619
this post does not mean anything, obviously

Anyways, Gatsby is a decent book. I don't hate it because I had to study it in High School, and I didn't hate it for the same reason everyone else in my session did. Though their complaints did ring pretty true in the sense that the whole book is pretty irrelevant to them.

Gatsby is an empty book about empty people. Nick is the most unoffensive main character imaginable, and his presence is reduced to that of an observer. Yes, the book's emptiness is SUPPOSED to be its statement, but it's hardly a profound one.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 30 15:19:20 2014 No.5510552 >>5510442 shit that is supposed to be shit is - as in the literal crappings this accurately describes - still shit

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/lit/ - Literature