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/lit/ - Literature

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5502694 No.5502694 [Reply] [Original]

I finally decided to read Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife. This book is absolutely fascinating.

Any other deists/agnostic theists/people interested in Near Death Experiences around?

>> No.5502711

post some memorable passages

>> No.5502747

>>5502694
I think you need to read a bit more about the author's background, apart from what it says in the book. His patchy employment history and the various lawsuits against him, for example.

>> No.5502769

Brotip:there's no heaven, stop wasting your time

>> No.5502820

>>5502694
I'm a Deist/Agnostic theist.

I haven't looked much into it lately but I remember talking about NDEs with my Dad all the time growing up.

His step-grandfather apparently had one.

>> No.5502823

>>5502694
I'd rather reread The Fault in our Stars

>> No.5502888

>>5502747

I have. So what? Malpractice lawsuits are very common in neurosurgery. As a matter of fact, it's one of the specialties with the highest rates of malpractice lawsuits. The guy has taught at Harvard for 20 years and just because there have been some malpractice lawsuits against him, doesn't mean that his knowledge of the brain and its functions is omitted.

>>5502711

>Hallucinogens affect the neocortex, and my neocortex wasn’t available to be affected.

>>5502820

NDE's are fascinating. NDE's in blind people are the most interesting in my opinion.

>>5502769

You have a very closed mind

>> No.5502905

>>5502694

I've read it. Basically made me decide to convert from an atheist to an agnostic theist. Really interesting book. I love all the backlash it got from atheists though. Hilarious they can't stand a neurosurgeon claiming a higher power exists.

>inb4 fedoras start raiding this thread screaming about Dawkins, le reddit army, God Delusion, logic, otters riding ostriches, etc.

>> No.5504522

>>5502905
>logic

What, people ACTUALLY USE THAT!? What kekboys.

Praise Jehovah

>> No.5504533

>>5502905
Prove that God exists.

>> No.5504552

>>5504533
*tips*

>> No.5504582

>>5502694
I used to work at a book shop back in the states and we had a signing with this guy, he's an absolute twat.

>> No.5504601

>>5502694
What's so convincing about it?

>> No.5504645

>>5502694
>THEREFORE GOD EXISTS

KEK

>> No.5504671

>>5502905
>Hilarious they can't stand a neurosurgeon claiming a higher power exists.

Why should anyone tolerate that level of stupidity and anti-intellectualism?

>> No.5504909

>>5502888
> You have a very closed mind

yeah, whereas yours is so open that your brain has fallen out

>> No.5504915

>>5504909
#rekt

>> No.5505037
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5505037

>>5504909
>>5504915
>brain physically placed inside the of a "mind"
either hyper-enlightened or #self-rekt

>> No.5506117
File: 315 KB, 1024x768, Honey bunny.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5506117

>>5505037
it's a metaphor, doofus

>> No.5506144

>>5506117
A shitty, shitty metaphor.

>> No.5506149

>>5504909
Dawkins parrot detected.

>> No.5506167
File: 259 KB, 1000x698, i am a huge orson welles.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5506167

Can "near death experiences" be labeled as a symptom of extreme narcissism? Yes, you were so special that the creator of everything and everyone took time out of his day to show you and you alone something that's eluded mankind for millenia just because you're so gosh darn special. It's actually pretty sad

>> No.5506178

>>5505037
>2014
>not being a monist

>> No.5506288
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5506288

>>5506149
Storm detected

>> No.5506365

>>5502747

Why do people like you immediately go for the ad-hom? Is it that hard to come up with an actual argument?

>> No.5506369

>>5506167
Before I take the time out of my day to read the three and a half paragraphs of vituperative drivel you have proffered on the topic of: "GOD DOESN'T REAL" I will require the following documents, notarized if possible, in order to evaluate the potential value of your treatise and the potential risk to sanity I will incur by reading it:

1. A proof in any area of real analysis. You may use an exercise from a textbook; the important part is that the proof be clear, concise, and convincing.

2. Your tax returns from the past 5 years. Intelligence leads to consistent high earnings.

3. Score reports from a *recent* IQ test, broken up into subsections, accompanied by a professional neuropsychological evaluation, which ideally will involve an assessment of your social intelligence.

4. A picture of your cock.

>> No.5506377

>>5506167
>Can "near death experiences" be labeled as a symptom of extreme narcissism?

theism in general is a childish narcissistic fantasy

it's hilarious to see people cling too it

>> No.5506384

>>5506377
*tips fedora*

>> No.5506390

>>5504552
>implying that's an acceptable answer
An hero.

>> No.5506392

>He further asserts that the current understanding of the mind "now lies broken at our feet "— for "What happened to me destroyed it, and I intend to spend the rest of my life investigating the true nature of consciousness
> Since the release of the book, he has lectured around the world in churches, hospitals, symposiums, besides appearing the TV shows, like Super Soul Sunday with Oprah Winfrey.

>> No.5506393

> NDE's in blind people are the most interesting in my opinion.

Blind people see all kinds of weird shit. Google Charles Bonnet Syndrome

>> No.5506394
File: 78 KB, 536x596, tips moonshine.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5506394

>>5506384

>> No.5506398

>>5506390
ebin m8

did that #reking make you euphoric?

>> No.5506399
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5506399

>Shit, I have no good arguments...
>I know! I'll use a meme!!

>> No.5506401

>>5506392
HAHAHHAHAHAHAH

>> No.5506404

>>5506399
you first brosef

>> No.5506407

>>5506399
>expecting theists to have the maturity level of a person over 10 years old

they all get asspained if you even suggest that their skybeard might not be real

>> No.5506412
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5506412

>>5506399
>Shit, I have no good arguments...
>I know! I'll use Squidward!

>> No.5506413

>>5506392
Oh well if he was on Oprah....

>> No.5506414

>>5506398
See
>>5506399

>> No.5506417
File: 309 KB, 499x359, squid.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5506417

>>5506412

>> No.5506490
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5506490

Check this out. Alexander claims to be "investigating the true nature of consciousness." Sounds pretty interesting, I wonder what he's doing.

Go to his website, which mostly consists of material promoting him and his book. Under "About" at the very bottom there's something called the Consciousness Initiative. On that page he begs you to donate. Doesn't really say what it's about (besides the copout "open the dialogue between religion, spirituality and science."), doesn't even have a link to the actual website. I had to google for that.

http://www.marioninstitute.org/serendipity/consciousness-initiative

The Consciousness Initiative consists of a single page, a message from Alexander. He name-drops the Hard Problem of Consciousness (capitalized!) and actually says, and I quote

"The goal of this initiative is to raise public awareness of the profound mystery of consciousness"

And after this you really have to read to believe. I'll just let Alexander do the talking.

>One prime focus of the Consciousness Initiative is to provide Research and Development funding for Sacred Acoustics, the group I participate closely with in developing sound recordings to enhance deep transcendental meditative states (visit sacredacoustics.com). I see development of these tools as crucial in changing our world, by greatly empowering existing meditators and inspiring new meditators towards attaining and sustaining transcendental conscious states.

>The truth is, you don't have to die or almost die to gain access to non-physical realms.These states allow for a richer understanding of who we truly are and offer an opportunity to cultivate an expanded awareness of subtle energies beyond the five physical senses.

What is Sacred Acoustics? They sell binaural beats for as little as $24 per CD. Now you can experience heaven from the comfort of your own home.

http://www.sacredacoustics.com/
http://store.sacredacoustics.com/

There you go, from neurosurgeon to snake oil peddler. That coma was the best business decision of his life.

>> No.5506540

>>5506365
in the case of highly speculative books that pass themselves off as fact, such as this one, it is important to try to understand the author's motivations and hidden agenda, in the same way as one would try to understand the speaker in an "unreliable narrator" work of fiction.

>> No.5506544

>>5506490
damn i know hard problem of consciousness too. i will let him know that alexander is namedropping him

>> No.5506549
File: 269 KB, 1200x1200, rooster-singing-cock-on-a-grass.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5506549

>>5506369
IQ tests are about as meaningful as trying to claim there is an afterlife based on accounts of near death experiences.

i will however post a picture of my cock

>> No.5506550

>>5506365
people don't like when their world outlook is questioned, especially when it's questioned reasonably and with some proofs

so, this thread is full of fedora

>> No.5506571

>>5504909

I would love to hear your thoughts on women, blacks, and gays.

>> No.5506580

>>5506549
Bullshit, you got that cock image from Google.

>> No.5506586

I've not been here for a while but now that I'm back this place strikes me more as /theology/ board than anything else.

Either being religious is the hip thing nowadays or /pol/ has spread its cancer beyond their containment board.

>> No.5506588

>>5506540
>it is important to try to understand the author's motivations and hidden agenda
Just throw it in the trash, or better, don't pick it up in the first place.

>> No.5506591

He should have his medical license revoked.

I don't want anyone who believes in magic operating on my brain :(

>> No.5506601

>>5506588
in the case of this book i agree, but i was answering a question.

>> No.5506609

>>5506580
ok ok
don't.. ahem.. crow about it

(adjusts bowtie)

>> No.5506615

>>5506550
>proofs

that word doesn't mean what you think it means

>> No.5506621
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5506621

>>5506609

>> No.5506626
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5506626

>>5506621
omg i love crows

>> No.5506630
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5506630

>>5506626

>> No.5506648

>this thread doesn't fit my narrative of /lit/ being full of hip flippant lower case typing atheist college kids like me
>better derail it with shitty twitter-tier jokes!

Literally.

>> No.5506666

>>5506648
As the poster of two crows I must defend myself by pointing our the fact that I'm not involved in this debate because it is fucking retarded.

>> No.5506689

If he is a neurosurgeon I have to imagine he knows he is full of shit.

>> No.5506693

That book was pretty debunked, iirc.

>> No.5506698

>>5506689
If he is at all sapient he'd be thoroughly aware of that from the first time he looked into a mirror. Look at that fucking face and bow tie of his.

>> No.5506704
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5506704

what really bothers me, people are so stupid that they call 'theology' or even 'magic' any research in a gray area of knowledge

i seriously suggest you to read robert anton wilson 'the new inquisition', may be it will make you more skeptical not only to the new ideas but to the current conventional ones too

>> No.5506711

>looking for empirical evidence of God
uh...

>> No.5506713

>>5506704
>more skeptical not only to the new ideas but to the current conventional ones too
Like grammar?

>> No.5506759

>>5506704
>phantom kangaroos, orgone, morphic resonance, and the mars effect
well forgive me for being skeptical

>> No.5506806

>>5506648
>buh huh huh the clever kids are making fun of my booooook
>better post some whiny crap about their posts derailing the thread rather than making any meaningful comment about the book myself

>>5506666
hail quadsatan

>> No.5506881
File: 11 KB, 183x275, thespiritmolecule.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5506881

for a non-scientific book of speculation based on personal experience i greatly prefer pic attached

>> No.5506906

>>5506759
you are very selectively skeptical

>> No.5506909

>>5506906
that's a good thing

>> No.5508403

>>5502905
tips mitre

>> No.5508529

>>5506909
no it's not
i once found a blog of one scientist who debunked some shady theories, freak theories as he named them, one of those was about how some rats could possibly get information or skills by an unknown way (i think it was about morphic resonance but i don't remember, it doesn't matter anyway), the blogger claimed that it was due to smell marks and he claimed that the success of the control experiment was due to they used the same maze, he didn't even bother to check his own sources that the control experiment didn't use the same maze. and so, what kind of skepticism is that when you already know the answer you should get and bend the facts to it? I don't claim that rat theory was true but that kind of debunking is worse than the weirdest theory

>> No.5508548

His "proof" consists of various unverifiable, yet charming, anecdotes.

Not a single study. Anyone who reads people like these needs to have his testicles cut off and be made to eat them.

>> No.5508559

Whenever I see "bestseller" or "highly acclaimed" on the front cover of a contemporary book I immediately lose interest.

>> No.5508561

>>5508548
what kind of study do you want for something where all the evidence may be anecdotal only? even if there is some truth in those theories it's just an early stage of gathering the data. data shouldn't be discarded simply because you don't like them

>> No.5508562

>>5508529
there was a physicist at Darwin's time who said evolution couldn't be true because there wasn't enough time for it to work. In those days they assumed the sun was doing combustion and was only a few million years old.

It's very natural to be sceptic towards theories that appearently contradict other well-established theories.
But no scientist will be able to ignore actual hard evidence.
There was this study to show that "water had memory" (that is: homeopathic dillutions of water behaving differently than just plain water). The study didn't hold up under close scrutiny.

Seriously, nobody has a problem with people making crazy claims. It's when they support these claims with shitty evidence that people start rolling their eyes.

(In the example of evolution, just notice how there's fuckloads of evidence, even if they still thought today that the sun was doing combustion, they wouldn't be able to ignore the evidence gathered from fossils and gene analysis.)

>> No.5508565

Near death experiences are genuine descriptions of the afterlife.
1. There are many cases in which a person has died for longer than 2 days, before coming back to life, all while experiencing an afterlife.
2. Many near death experiencers were brain dead as they experienced the afterlife.
3. Near death experiencers described there experiences as being 'more real' than life. They also found that their senses were far more acute. There have been cases where (born) blind people were able to see.
4. There is no evolutionary purpose for the near death experience. If the near death experience really is a biological process, then it must have been created through evolution, but how could this gene be useful for survival if it is followed by death?
5. Atheists have had near death experiences where they went to heaven, and most of them became religious after they were resuscitated.

Theistic religion has existed for thousands of years, and now people are experiencing afterlife, God, intense light, deceased relatives, angels etc. To me, it makes theism seem completely possible.

>> No.5508568

>>5508561
>what kind of study do you want for something where all the evidence may be anecdotal only?
there are certain questions that are hard to analyse with scientific methods. That's why sociology will never be an actual science.

This isn't the case with NDEs/OBEs, though. You can easily create these experiences in a controlled lab environment.

This isn't about liking data or not. There simply isn't ANY data (except for anecdotes, WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT) that suggests NDEs/OBEs aren't explainable by the current mainstream neuropsychological model.

And btw, if you're gonna allow anecdotal evidence, you also have to believe in big foot, the loch ness monster and UFOs.

tl;dr: you're an idiot

>> No.5508575

>>5508568
>here are certain questions that are hard to analyse with scientific methods
yeah
at least till they gather enough data, then that theory can either get a serious attention or be refuted

>> No.5508579

>>5508565
... are you high or just stupid

>people being clinically dead for more than 2 days

yeah right

>> No.5508587

>>5508575
>at least till they gather enough data
but there's an overwhelming mountain of data from contemporary neuroscience that suggest that there's no mind-body duality whatsoever. The mind is what the brain does.

NDEs and OBEs are perfectly explainable within that framework.

You're trying to use different explanation that contradict A LOT of available evidence on the basis of personal experiences, not even anecdotes, but personal FEELINGS.

You really need to learn what constitutes good evidence. In particular, an anecdote usually constitutes shit evidence.

protip: anecdotes and "personal revelations" fall into the shit-category.

>> No.5508594

>>5508579
George Rodonaia died for 3 days, while experiencing an afterlife.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence10.html

>> No.5508599

>>5502694
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0YtL5eiBYw

The old guy arguing that the afterlife exists on the bases of NDEs later admits that he also believes in ghosts. The audience can't help chuckle.

>> No.5508609

>>5508587
>but there's an overwhelming mountain of data from contemporary neuroscience that suggest that there's no mind-body duality whatsoever. The mind is what the brain does.

oh, nobody really explained how the brain really works yet, there are several different theories including even some more exotic ones which imply quantum effects etc

>You're trying to use different explanation that contradict A LOT of available evidence

anyway, facts cannot contradict facts, what that book really contradicts it's not evidence, but the modern common theory of mind which is based on that evidence, and the theory can be incomplete

>> No.5508616

>>5508594
>citing near-death.com

Yeah, you got a normal source for that? Googling only reveals weird Christian shit, nothin "normal".

>> No.5508626

>>5508609
>nobody really explained how the brain really works yet
>quantum effects
oh for fucks sake.

>tfw you realize you have been talking to a 10 year old the entire time

The fact that there's no mind-body duality is as much scientific mainstream as the fact that the earth is round. No single shred of evidence has ever been found to contradict this and it's the easiest most obvious theory.

You're basically saying
>oh, but nobody really knows how everything really works. There's no unified theory of physics yet and quantum theory is complicated and counterintuitive.
>therefore it's not crazy to think the earth is flat

Sorry buddy, you really are crazy to think that.

>> No.5508636

>>5508626

>oh for fucks sake

you probably think that you know better than sir roger penrose

i got it, you know the absolute truth with the direct link not from a phony god but from your enlightened intelligence

also i even doubt you actually read what i wrote if you interpreted it that way

>> No.5508639

>>5508616
It still happened.

>> No.5508640

>>5508636
why haven't you killed yourself yet

>> No.5508646

>>5508636
>you probably think that you know better than sir roger penrose
Come off your high-horse, or should I say your high invisible pink unicorn?

To my knowledge, the only people who use the terms "quantum" and "consciousness" in the same sentence are New Age quacks and weirdos who have no understanding of quantum mechanics in the first place.

I would be most delighted to see any actual neuroscience that says something about whether the brain is simply a macroscopic machine (which seems to be the mainstream common-sense assumption) or whether quantum effects actually significantly impact brain function.
So far I haven't seen any, which, I assume, is because there's no evidence whatsoever to contradict the common-sense assumption that the brain is essentially macroscopic and quantum effects are negligable.

>> No.5508669

>>5508646

>Come off your high-horse, or should I say your high invisible pink unicorn?

oh, i wouldn't mind to own an invisible pink unicorn pet if she accepted me, she is probably cute even being invisible and being a pure idea she shouldn't eat and defecate too :3

>To my knowledge, the only people who use the terms "quantum" and "consciousness" in the same sentence are New Age quacks and weirdos who have no understanding of quantum mechanics in the first place.

sorry, but then your knowledge is lacking and you don't want to improve it because you are biased, you didn't even google the name which i suggested to you (and he is not the only one, there was david bohm, another famous physicist, and others too, new age, which ruined the reputation of that idea, didn't pick it from nothing)

anyway i mentioned it simply to say that we don't really know how the mind works yet and admitted that those are more exotic theories, iirc penrose's theory couldn't explain afterlife anyway, bohm's probably could but it's more vague

>> No.5508674

>>5508669
why haven't you killed yourself yet

>> No.5508693

What is it about NDE's that makes them match up in most cases to the religion/culture of those concerned?

I think it implies that if they are real, god transcends religion. Of course, our dreams may often reflect what is on our mind, even the deep seeded thoughts we have so who knows.

>> No.5508694

>>5508669
I didn't google him because I already somewhat knew him. Afaik he's a cosmologist and has fuckall todo with neuroscience.
Here's the crux of the matter from the wikipedia article:
>He argues that the present computer is unable to have intelligence because it is an algorithmically deterministic system.
That's a statement not based on actual evidence, and therefore, frankly, I don't care a great deal what his personal opinions on the matter are.
Again, mainstream neuroscience (and computer science) doesn't seem to agree with him.

Please note that philosophers have done armchair philosophy for thousands of years on the nature of consciousness, and to no surprise, nothing has come out of it.

So again, I'm not saying I know anything for sure, but arguing unsubstantiated philosophical points in the absence of evidence is, in my humble opinion, a waste of time.

>> No.5508710

>>5508694

but since when cs proved that a computer can have intelligence? nobody demonstrated anything more than some kind of trial and error stimulus reaction systems

also his theory wasn't a pure philosophy iirc it's verifiable, bohm's was closer to philosophy