/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5487212]

could fantasy as a genre be considered racist?

[Anonymous No.5487219]

>>5487212

for being white-centric? or for making the other races so stereotypical?

what's your angle?

[Anonymous No.5487220]

could nigger as a genre be considered Fantasy?

>What type of fucking stupid question is this OP.
Sure it probably could be, or maybe it fucking isn't?
Do you have a god damn reason why it should/shouldn't be?
Why is this thread already so shit.
Mad

[Anonymous No.5487222]

Back to Tumblr.

[Anonymous No.5487232]

>>5487219
I'm just thinking about whether or not the modern concept adopted as standard among fantasy writers is a racist one, is middle earth a racist creation? or are people projecting real world issues onto something as innocent as storytelling
>>5487220
dunno, you tell me mister anime

[Anonymous No.5487249]

>>5487212
sure, fantasy is a little racist. There usually aren't people of color and a lot of white elves, white dwarves, white humans, white hobbits. I guess ogres are kinda brown? And some fantasy writers are hella racist, like James Branch Cabell.

But black people love fantasy as much as white people. It's a pretty soft racism. It's like as racist as the recent Taylor Swift video, and I think people care way less about it than that.

[Anonymous No.5487250]

>>5487232
your questions are vague and impossible

please ask better questions

[Anonymous No.5487252]

>>5487249

>there are no black characters
>dat mean it racist

[Anonymous No.5487270]

>>5487249
>sure, fantasy is a little racist. There usually aren't people of color

But only retards think lack of representation = racism, sexism, etc.

And anyway, this statement is based on your assumption of the race of the elves, humans, etc. since most authors don't specify that they're white.

[Anonymous No.5487278]

>>5487212

[Feminarkist !!XI7SJUHr/Uv No.5487288]

>>5487212
Could literature as an institution be considered racist?

[Anonymous No.5487289]

>>5487278

[Anonymous No.5487298]

>>5487288
I'm keen to say yes
>>5487212
I think that high fantasy displays a large amount of conservative racism, given that each race has a clear-cut behaviour. For example, dwarves are proud, stubborn and greedy. Elves are tall and fair, etc. There's no room for variation when it's high fantasy

[MP Shiel meets George Schuyler(...) No.5487306]

>>5487270
representation definitely = racism, sexism, etc! Like, Fox News would have you think that affirmative action is about quota hiring, but most affirmative action departments at universities, etc., are geared more to making sure that jobs are advertised to a representative national audience. If you have a predominantly white town and you advertise a new professorship only to the white town, you're only gonna have white professors.

Even if it's only institutional and not within the works themselves, representation still reflects racism. Publishing, promotion, fandom, and licensing (cartoons, films, etc.) can (and I'm sure has) all lead to a disproportionate black/asian/latin@ authorship.

That said, I get the Lena Dunham defence: I don't know any black people so I didn't think it my place to write about them. On the other hand, it didn't prevent Charles Beaumont or Wilson Tucker from writing credibly about blacks. Dunham's comment assumes that black people, even upwardly mobile black Brooklynites, are aliens.

[MP Shiel meets George Schuyler(...) No.5487311]

>>5487298
yea, I thought of this angle, too. Races are often very essentialist and overdetermined in high fantasy.

[Anonymous No.5487319]

>>5487306
>representation definitely = racism, sexism, etc
>representation still reflects racism

Great argument, retard.

[Anonymous No.5487325]

Who the shit cares? Go back to tumblr.

[Derrick Bell and the DC Sniper(...) No.5487329]

>>5487319
haha, back at ya, mr green text.

you're gonna have to better familiarize yourself with critical race theory if you think representation has nothing to do with institutional racism. Are you saying that if there were no black people on tv, that wouldn't reflect racism in the tv industry and in America/the UK/Australia/the world?

[Tao Lin ate my baby No.5487331]

>>5487325
we're not on tumblr. never had a tumblr. get a new meme.

[Anonymous No.5487339]

>>5487329
>Are you saying that if there were no black people on tv, that wouldn't reflect racism in the tv industry and in America/the UK/Australia/the world?

yes. the only thing that would actually reflect racism would be prohibiting different races from being on television *because* of their race.

what you're talking about is a kind of "everybody should have a turn" luxury, which has nothing to do with racism, which is an active dislike.

[Anonymous No.5487364]

>>5487339
I thought you were gonna twist what you said into some subtler casuistry, but naw.

You know what? Black/Latino/Asian writers are excluded from publishing *because* of their race. They're excluded from acting and modeling jobs *because* of their race. They're not written about *because* of their race. They're not put on book covers *because* of their race.

And I'm ok with it, but high fantasy races are essentialist as fuck.

[Anonymous No.5487377]

>>5487331
No seriously, fuck off with this idiocy. Fantasy just is shit because it's shit. You can feel free to direct yourself to the appropriate subreddit if it has somehow triggered you, you nigger apologist.

[Anonymous No.5487380]

>>5487364
Who cares? They live in white countries. Whites are the minority on the planet and have created the global culture. If they don't like being "oppressed" they are free to stop flooding into our lands.

[Anonymous No.5487400]

>>5487377
haha I didn't realize I was on /pol/. you gonna call me nigger lover next? I don't mind. I'm a nigger lover. Black ppl don't need to be apologized for, though.

double lol at yr genre elitism. you're forgetting where you're posting.

not on reddit, not on tumblr. never been on either. I am currently on a thread about fantasy on 4chan, and I thought maybe you were posting in defense of fantasy, but I guess you just wanted to spout some white supremacist bullshit?

[Anonymous No.5487404]

ITT: white guys are butthurt.
i'm kekking.

[Anonymous No.5487406]

>>5487380
this won't be a white country for much longer

[Anonymous No.5487410]

>>5487364
>You know what? Black/Latino/Asian writers are excluded from publishing *because* of their race. They're excluded from acting and modeling jobs *because* of their race. They're not written about *because* of their race. They're not put on book covers *because* of their race.

and you base this off of what? a hunch? i understand that it makes you feel like your life has meaning when you fight for a noble cause, but you can't always assume racism is a motive for every job denied.

for instance, modeling and magazine covers are based on presenting specific appearances for specific jobs, appearances that are literally manipulated with computer programs to make them fit the desired specifications. sometimes the desired specifications aren't black or latino. sometimes they are. so a job denied based on race when the job is specifically *aesthetic* is totally fine. 100% nobody should have a problem with that.

blacks/latinos excluded from publishing because of their race seems like something you just suspect rather than actually know. does a publisher even know the race of the writer half of the time? i mean, sometimes you can guess based off of the name, but...

[Anonymous No.5487423]

>>5487329
>you're gonna have to better familiarize yourself with critical race theory

Gotta love the classic Marxist technique of deferring expertise.

[Anonymous No.5487425]

>>5487400
Stay mad.

[Anonymous No.5487427]

>>5487404
Literal projection.
>Duh elves es raaaayyycesssa!

Yawn.

[Anonymous No.5487435]

For sure. There is the standard trope:
Light (white) = good
Dark (black) = evil
I doubt fantasy authors are conciously making the decision to be racist, however you could say this is inherent racism, just like a lot of shit irl

It may or may not be a big deal, but what actually grinds my gears is that philosophically, the concept is ass backwards. In the traditional Yin Yang duality sense, white is masculine, extroverted and chaotic. Black is feminine, introverted, and symbolizes order.

[Anonymous No.5487440]

>>5487410
I'm not fighting for any cause, I'm arguing anonymously on a message board that deletes its threads within days. It's incredibly ephemeral.

Yes, people discriminate based on names:

http://home.earthlink.net/~logesw/Carpusor%20%26%20Loges,%20Journal%20of%20Applied%20Social%20Psychology.PDF

this has been demonstrated again and again. They also discriminate based on accent and dialect. I think modeling is a gray area at best, and you're badly begging the question to say nobody should have a problem with disproportionate representation on magazine covers.

You know what, to some degree it IS just something I suspect, though it's something I suspect based on things I know. However, I doubt experiences like Samuel Delaney's are unusual:

http://www.nyrsf.com/racism-and-science-fiction-.html

And keep in mind that those are the experiences of one of the greatest sf writers of the 20th century, so what must it be (and have been) like for an ordinary sf/fantasy hack?

You're kind of ignoring what institutional racism is.

I gotta go to sleep. You're exhausting. I dunno why I keep arguing with white supremacists on 4chan.

[Anonymous No.5487446]

>>5487423
never read marx nor even a book about marx, but y'all wanna be glib bigots and then say, "Why didn't you elaborate more?"

[Anonymous No.5487450]

>>5487289
I don't understand why these drive me mad

[Anonymous No.5487452]

>>5487427
except I don't think there's a single person on here who's bothered by the fact that elves are racial/races/whatever. We're talking about it, but we don't really give a shit. No one's offended by it.

[The cats No.5487476]

>>5487289
I've seen that illusion done correctly but those lines with the arrows are actually different lengths in this case.

[The cats No.5487478]

>>5487476
>Reads rest of image

Fuck marijuana I'm going to sleep

[Anonymous No.5487481]

>>5487212
No, not 'as a genre' since the definition of the genre doesn't entail racism. Thus, the prevalence of racist tropes in fantasy is entirely contingent, more dependend on the people who write fantasy and their inclinations than on the genre itself.

[Anonymous No.5487493]

>>5487481
Well, sure. Absolutely no argument there.

[Anonymous No.5487497]

>>5487493
Well, you'll need to re-phrase your question, then.

[Anonymous No.5487518]

>>5487497
Not op

[Anonymous No.5487555]

>>5487440
>I dunno why I keep arguing with white supremacists on 4chan.

what's with the troll tier comments like this? if you want to have an honest discussion about your suspicion of racial bias, go ahead. but to act like those who are skeptical are "white supremacists" is just ridiculous and implies that you are not in a position to reflect on where you may be wrong or overstating what is merely a hunch.

>Yes, people discriminate based on names

which is why i hinted at it. but if we're going merely on hunches, it's my suspicion that people who work at big publishers aren't reading "diaz" and throwing the manuscript in the trash.

>You're kind of ignoring what institutional racism is.

because people use "institutional racism" to cover terribly broad subsections of culture and assume it operates like a computer program where, because of some legit complaints within the legal system and network television, some mystical domino effect happens where every single person is robbed of the ability to not be racist when they say, for instance, "no" to a black guy's book.

[Anonymous No.5487577]

>>5487555
>it's my suspicion that people who work at big publishers aren't reading "diaz" and throwing the manuscript in the trash.

I wish they were.

[Anonymous No.5488306]

>>5487555
>why the troll-tier comments like "white supremacist
Because the term "nigger apologist" was used itt. Because ppl itt thread said to go back to where we came from (as if black ppl aren't just as native as white ppl in the US, or MORE native in Australia). Because an exaggerated hypothetical case where pocs have no representation was deemed not to be racist, the implication being that in this equal playing field we call life, white ppl are just superior and therefore rise to the top.

People who work at big publishers are (and have always been) predominantly white. If you think that's not gonna prevent proportional representation, then I don't think I can convince you. You ignored Delaney's experiences, which is about as insider as you can get. If nothing else, 4chan is hella racist (and there's a lot of cross-pollination between boards), and this should remind you that people are hella racist, that they have many conscious and unconscious, public and private biases, and that fact is gonna affect any white-dominated industry.

You just as much as acknowledged the existence of institutional racism, but you hand-waved it away because you don't wanna implicate individuals. It's cool, I don't exactly wanna implicate individuals, either, but that doesn't make a thing not exist. Consider, though, that the white ppl in publishing, content production, and promotion of an industry act as gatekeepers and tone setters for that industry.

We can talk about another field, such as rap music: the vast majority of publishers, editors, and critics covering rap are white, and though they might (there's no guarantee, esp at the business level) have anti-racist ambitions, they're still setting the tone for what rap and hip hop should be about, and they're driving the conversations surrounding rap. On the production side, a lot of white ppl say whether artists should get record deals; they create the terms of the deal and make decisions about touring and promotion; and they say how the charts will function. White people are even the predominant audience! So even when when you have an industry where the artists are mostly black and the art itself is black-originates, you still have gatekeeping and tone-setting involved, in spite of individual white people's intentions. That one white dude rap critic (among many) doesn't want to be an exotifier, doesn't want to be a mouthpiece for black people who can speak for themselves, and maybe he has enough self-awareness to conduct his business with those things in mind, but he's still a cog in an industry whose blackness is largely cosmetic.

[Anonymous No.5488311]

>>5488306
>cont
I don't expect any white person to quit their job because a black person didn't get that job, but not seeing the ways that white people ensure that white wealth remains white wealth in America means putting blinders on. That white critic is all to glad to work his way up to an editorship knowing that equally qualified black writers never even had his chances at landing the freelancing work in the first place, if not because of outright discrimination, then because black criticism of rap is gonna sound different from white criticism, and white editors and publishers don't know how to deal with that. The tone has already been set and that's all they know, so the writing style and subject matter of rap criticism will continue to follow a path set by a lot of obsessive-compulsive white nerds, and black critics who really want a chance will increase their odds by writing and thinking like their white predecessors.

(Also, I dunno why you think the publishing industry is more high-minded and ethical than the real estate industry. That's naive.)

[Anonymous No.5488320]

>>5488306
>>5488311

>I'm angry about being a nigger

Holy shit you can babble a lot.

[Anonymous No.5488327]

>>5488320
Back to your holding pin, animal.

[Anonymous No.5488332]

>>5488327
I don't think you're in a position to call anyone an animal, tyrone.

[Anonymous No.5488339]

>>5487555
>because people use "institutional racism" to cover terribly broad subsections of culture and assume it operates like a computer program where, because of some legit complaints within the legal system and network television, some mystical domino effect happens where every single person is robbed of the ability to not be racist when they say, for instance, "no" to a black guy's book.
Read an intro to sociology book or something and stop taking social criticism as a personal offense. Whites are so fucking touchy, it's almost precious.

[Anonymous No.5488344]

>>5488332
>thinking I'm the guy he responded to
>implying I'm not 100% white
>implying you don't belong in your shitbox

[Anonymous No.5488347]

>>5488339
>Whites are so fucking touchy, it's almost precious.

I know right?

Whitey be so touchy its ridinkoulous.

[Anonymous No.5488355]

>>5488344
You can pretend all you want, Tyrone.

I'm not buying it.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.5488361]

>>5488355
Calm down, Cletus. Why don't you go back to spreading your recessive genes to your daughter-sister now.

[Anonymous No.5488363]

>>5488361
I'm not american, nice try mr. offended man of color.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.5488371]

>>5488363
Cletus is derived from Greek and used by Europeans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cletus
But no one expects a recessive like yourself to know that. The fact you can type is miraculous.

[Anonymous No.5488377]

>>5488371
>a recessive

My God are there actually people who are proud to be black?

You can call me recessive all you want, I fail to see how it's an insult, unlike nigger.

[Anonymous No.5488379]

>>5488320
>>5488332
>>5488347
>>5488355
>>5488363
>diseased mini-dicked, mayo-skinned chimp acting superior to anything

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.5488385]

>>5488377
>recessive getting assblasted
>y-y-yer a n-n-n-
Just stop. I know 4chin is the only place that you can feel better about what you are, but it's embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.5488388]

>>5488379
Let's try looking at the facts.

[Anonymous No.5488391]

we is be da masta rays.

[Anonymous No.5488392]

Uh I guess I should've let the thread die. Anyway anon, I doubt you're convinced, but the comments that follow mine SHOULD underscore my point for you.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » No.5488393]

>>5488388
>it's still flailing
wow

[Anonymous No.5488400]

>>5487212

Are dogs racist?

[Anonymous No.5488401]

>>5488393
I bet you have a nice skull like the one in

>>5488391

keep that african blood boiling for me.

[Anonymous No.5488408]

Fantasy is Pure Ideology®, often of a very cheap and caricaturish variety, so it's bound to include 'racism' like hook-nosed, hand-rubbing, always-plotting fellows who are really good at taking care of money like dem gringots dudes ya kno?

[Anonymous No.5488415]

>/pol/fag yet again getting BTFO
What else is new on /lit/?

[Anonymous No.5488417]

>>5488415
>how can I take my mind of it
>i don't want to think about it

nice deflective behavior, mister.

[Anonymous No.5488469]

kek must be the same guy from last night

[Anonymous No.5488471]

>>5488320
Protip, moron: you're replying to a SJW, and SJW's are all 100% white.

[Anonymous No.5488478]

>>5488417
most incoherent green text

[Anonymous No.5488485]

>>5488408
wut

[Anonymous No.5488493]

>>5488471
that's not what my gut instinct tells me.

[Anonymous No.5488528]

>>5487220
perfect post

[Khun you move please, you're s(...) No.5488530]

>>5488471
You underestimate the black contingency on 4chan. Hell half the people who contact me on /soc/ contact threads aren't white, and that's with no mention of race.

[Anonymous No.5488540]

>>5487212
elves a fucking shite

[kitty !kitty/EnNg No.5488544]

>>5488540
you are mad
mad about elves

[Anonymous No.5488555]

>>5488540
>>5488544
/tg/ pls go

[Anonymous No.5488574]

>>5487278
but they could be

[Anonymous No.5488601]

>>5488306
>The majority of people who are interested enough in an industry to own it are white.
>This is racist.
You do realize theres nothing stopping niggers from opening their own publishing companies or music labels right?
Or is the white man keeping the black man down?
This is the same complain stormies use against the Jews btw.
Its like you want to stifle market freedoms in the name of political correctness.

[Anonymous No.5488644]

Seriously though, a fantasy universe that is built upon the mythology and aesthetics of ancient Africa/ancient Middle East could be amazing.

[Anonymous No.5488652]

>>5487278
You've been trolled my friend

[Anonymous No.5488654]

>>5488306
>(as if black ppl aren't just as native as white ppl in the US, or MORE native in Australia)
>implying aborigines are the same race as all the black races in Africa.

[Anonymous No.5488658]

>>5487289
underrated post

[Anonymous No.5488753]

>>5487406
It will always have that history. So will the world

[Anonymous No.5488774]

>>5487435
Underpated rost, right there. The only other good one in the topic.

[Anonymous No.5488797]

>>5488574
I don't habeeb it

[Anonymous No.5488856]

>>5488644
do you see those warriors from Hammerfell?

they've got curved swords

curved
swords

[Anonymous No.5488885]

>>5487212
I claim that, you no, *sniff*, that racism is racist. So that, you see, ischnt it weird that racisshm has become tabooo, ha ha... I mean, off courssh, the slavery was wrong *sniff*but politically correctness, I claim is furthering the divide. The idiology of keeping it *sniff* and so that you can point to it, "oh, you see, that guy is racist," it is lacanian in a way.. and so on and so on.

[Anonymous No.5489341]

Yes, because it distracts from the suffering happening to the less privileged people.

[web dubois's left nut No.5489343]

>>5488601
With what wealth? It takes wealth to start a publishing house. There are black media companies (like Cathy Hughes' Radio One), but white people have certainly had a head start at wealth building. It's also weird to think of companies like Universal or Disney or Viacom as "white" companies.

Your green text doesn't actually paraphrase what I wrote. I get your earnestness at expressing your white supremacy, but that doesn't mean I think you're discussing this in good faith.

[Mum No.5489351]

>>5487435
shut up pissy fit faggot, stop fishing

[web dubois's left nut No.5489357]

>>5488654
>implying that green text green text I say
>things in green text and surely they
>mean something I am like a
>anthropology doctorate candidate
>I know things in green text

[Mum No.5489363]

>>5489357
PHD in green-arrow-text, i award thee.

[Anonymous No.5489384]

>>5488601
⇒Needs money
⇒Needs recognition by other publishers
⇒Needs contracts with book stores otherwise Wall mart will force you to sell to them at a lost.
⇒Needs money to buy good writers and make a good name otherwise you'll just get fanfiction

It's not a "niggers can't" because Obama is black, it's about being wealthy enough to lose money for years.

[Anonymous No.5489521]

>>5487232
>I'm just thinking about whether or not the modern concept adopted as standard among fantasy writers is a racist one
get the fuck back to tumblr

[Anonymous No.5489940]

>>5487404
what an unfunny picture

[Anonymous No.5490223]

>>/lit/thread/S5487212#p5488471

not sure i agree with some of these red trashchans while other troll comments ("lel u honkys so bad") went undeleted. that's real racism, and no not toward white people, but toward the people these idiot mods think they're defending when they selectively delete like little bitches.