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/lit/ - Literature

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5485560 No.5485560 [Reply] [Original]

What are your thoughts on Alan Moore ? Did you like his works ?

>> No.5485571 [DELETED] 

He's a homosexual that worships a metaphysical literature deity.

>> No.5485579

>>5485560
Life is too precious to waste reading decadent trash. Read Goethe.

>> No.5485585

>>5485579
this. and if i get picky choosy over muh wizard homos i'd pick grant morrison over him.

>> No.5485590

>>5485571
this is clearly the coolest thing about him

>>5485560
I liked Watchmen and V for Vendetta. I don't read comic books much anymore because I'm an adult but those ones were good.

>> No.5485592

>>5485571
Sounds great.

>> No.5485599
File: 44 KB, 500x510, 1410812185732.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5485599

>>5485585
>i'd pick grant morrison over him

>> No.5485600

>>5485585
so moore is decadent trash but morrison isn't?

>> No.5485606

>>5485560
Watchmen is the greatest graphic novel of all time. The movie was good too. V for Vendetta is also a decent read.

>> No.5485610

But is it art?

>> No.5485632

>>5485606
I can't imagine someone who'd say the movie was good could've at all understood what made the comic great and significant

>> No.5485650
File: 56 KB, 644x307, fromhell1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5485650

>>5485560

Like one would enjoy a sparkle of light in a pestilent land of mud.

>> No.5485669

>>5485650
Not an easy ride though, but one must try to understand as many people as possible.

>> No.5485674
File: 3.18 MB, 1183x1800, League_of_Extraordinary_Gentlemen_Vol_2_1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5485674

>>5485560
I liked League a whole lot, it's like candy for humanities fags like me.

>> No.5485691

>>5485674
I didn't knew he wrote that too.

>> No.5485697

>>5485650
holy shit that tip knocked me off my feet

>> No.5485698 [DELETED] 

>>5485560
Guy makes comic books for adults?

Why are westernes so bad at making comic books?

>> No.5485701

>>5485650
I just finished From Hell 2 days ago. I enjoyed it, real masterpiece

>> No.5485702

>>5485650
never, ever, kneel, son

>> No.5487421

>>5485560
i enjoy him a lot, cant wait for Jerusalem

>> No.5487441

>>5485560
I've read From Hell, Watchmen and The league of extraordinary gentlemen.
They are all great.
Especially From Hell. I couldn't stop reading.

>> No.5487490

>>5485674
that looks cool, but neckbeard as fuck

>> No.5487514

He looks like a forest wizard

>> No.5487521

>>5487514
More like a homeless hobo.

>> No.5487526

>>5487490
>le buzzword

>> No.5487529

>>5487526
the word buzzword is a buzzword

>> No.5487534

Wasn't he writing some massive door-stopper about time travel?

>> No.5487556

>>5485560
Alan Moore hates everything he's ever written and thinks Watchmen is a comedy. He is the definition of edgy

>> No.5487561

he, like cormac mccarthy or quentin tarantino, is a beacon for the plebs. he functions as a lighthouse in a fog of commercial shite.

people like them are good for pointing the way to the good stuff when everyone else is pointing you up your own ass.

of course, when you get to the good stuff, when you learn to navigate the ocean by instinct, you have no need for such lighthouses.

>> No.5487569

>>5487561
Bullcrap. The stuff holds.
No one's ever claimed he's subtle, but the quality of his work isn't diminished just because it makes a great introductory point.

>> No.5487626

Voice of Fire was great Borgesian stuff and I look forward to Jerusalem.

Alan Moore hates comics, because he grew up with them and they were things for children.
His generation and he himself changed that and he was the only one in the industry to regret the route they took.

...but what do you expect, he is obviously more interested in literature and writing comics was him trying to tie is childhood passion with his passion for books.
It worked to a degree, but instead of using the most interesting parts of his initial love for comics and mythology for the books he could have written, he walked the exact reverse path of this and found an audience that he couldn't relate to.

Is Alan Moore modernism and Grant Morrison post-modernism?

>> No.5488200

>>5487626

It's possible. Morrison and Moore feel like polar opposites at times.

>> No.5488229

I liked Watchmen.

I endured V for Vendetta.

I haven't read anything else of his work.

>> No.5488234

>>5485632
explain

>> No.5488264

He doesn’t even illustrate his graphic "novels".

>> No.5488268

>>5488264
he does pretty extensive notes on how each panel should look, the style etc. the illustrators don't get that much freedom

>> No.5488278

Loved Watchmen and Swamp Thing

Tried reading V for Vendetta but got bored half way through. I think anonymous has kind of ruined it

>> No.5488279

>>5488268
sounds like he's too lazy to write a novel.

>he does pretty extensive notes on how each panel should look

sounds like he's trying to undermine the contributions of those who are integral to development and succes of a comic book

>> No.5488284

>>5487490
> not realizing being a neckbeard is cool
> 2014

>> No.5488293
File: 297 KB, 650x618, tolstoj.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5488293

>>5485560
you're purdy

>> No.5488296

not literature

>>>/co/

>> No.5488396

Aside from Moore, who writes /lit/ish comics?

>> No.5488407

>>5488396
>/lit/ish comics?

seriously, go away

>> No.5488413

>>5488407
No u.
I liked From Hell, deal with it.

>> No.5488434

>>5488296
/co/ is tumblr 2.0

>> No.5488437
File: 16 KB, 300x386, Jacques-Louis_David_-_Marat_assassinated_-_Google_Art_Project_2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5488437

I like to put on Flamenco Sketches and the alternative take off of Kind of Blue 50th anniversary and read Watchmen #4
Can recommend thoroughly
also get real high

>> No.5488451
File: 68 KB, 1003x688, comics.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5488451

>>5488396
>>5488407
I would like recommendations for comics that aren't for manchildren or female coming of age novels

pic related, my comics folder
ib4 /co/ those guys are retarded

>> No.5488462

>>5488396
Moebius + Jodorowsky?

>> No.5488481
File: 71 KB, 936x759, Comapture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5488481

>>5488451
Pleb.

>> No.5488488

>>5487556
>comedy
Nah, it's a satire on the whole "superhero"-genre.

>> No.5488489
File: 29 KB, 358x300, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5488489

>>5488481

>> No.5488498

Sorry for the dumb question: Is there a program to read .cbr that has basic usability? I want to be able to zoom in and out and move around the page, and go to the next page. Somehow this is a pain in the ass with calibre.

>> No.5488518

>>5485674
I loved that too

>> No.5488597

>>5488481
a lot of that is shit, like 60-70%

>> No.5488608

>>5488396
Inio Asano as a personality is just trash ans most of his work is just plain mediocre but if you want something truly wonderful, Punpun is the way to go.

>> No.5488611

>>5488451
Lone Wolf and Cub

>> No.5488615

>>5488396
Neil Gaiman is pretty good.
Enki Bilal is great too.
Some of Eisner's work is worthwhile as well.
But the god tier is >>5488462

>> No.5488632

>>5488396
/lit/ish as in From Hell, or as in full of /lit/ references like Gentlemen?

If the latter, try some franco-belgian.
"De Cape et de Crocs" is to french&spanish theatre what the gentlemen are to victorian pulp,
there's a "Miller & Pynchon", haven't looked at it yet,
...

>> No.5488811

>>5488608
>Inio Asano as a personality is just trash

what makes you say that ?

>> No.5488818

>>5488597
Yep. The "X Collection" folders are decent sizes, they make up for the shit ones.

>> No.5488819

>>5488811
Well, not trash, sorry for the hyperbole. I'm just deeply dissapointed by his view on his own work. See http://mangabrog.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/inio-asano-interview-reality-is-tough-so-read-this-manga-about-cute-girls-and-feel-better/

>> No.5488836

>>5488819
What's so disappointing? I thought it was interesting to see how organic the project was to him.

>> No.5488864

>>5487529
>the word word is a buzzword

>> No.5488865

>>5487561
you sound like a fag

>> No.5488874

>tfw my library doesn't have From Hell circulating
swamp thing is horrible. don't get how people can stand that.

>> No.5488877

>>5488279
sounds like he has a vision and he doesn't care what dumb monkeydrawers think because they rarely do

>> No.5488880

>>5488865
Well it is an Alan Moore thread


When in Rome etc...

>> No.5488883

CIA operative working for the Lizards-nothing new

>> No.5488912

>>5487626
>Alan Moore hates comics, because he grew up with them and they were things for children.
but he said that he resents making Watchmen because of how it transformed the superhero genre and that he only wants to make comics for teenagers.
one should take everything Moore says with a buttload of salt. this doesn't make me like him any less, quite the opposite
btw I'm gonna get voice of the fire soon, anyone else has an opinion about it?

>> No.5488931

>>5488279
>sounds like he's too lazy to write a novel.
he wrote a novel already and has another one almost finished which counts 1 million words

>> No.5488937
File: 81 KB, 960x720, 1409013431988.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5488937

>>5488462
>Jodorowsky
>that Metabarons saga

>> No.5488946

>>5488279
he does write novels
apparently he just finished one longer than the bible

>> No.5488948

>>5488632
>Miller
i can't take the guy seriously anymore

>> No.5488954

>>5488818
Garth Ennis and Jodorowsky are shit aswell, also, why isn't Lost Girls in the Alan Moore collection?

>> No.5489003

>>5488954
>jodorowsky
>shit
Why anon

>> No.5489066

>>5488296
He's written multiple novels.

>> No.5489072 [DELETED] 

>>5488396
Osamu Tezuka

Read Buddha, Phoenix, and Adolf and then continue your journey with Tezuka from there by picking whatever looks interesting to you.

>> No.5489103
File: 375 KB, 1300x1800, Buddha_v04_p024.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5489103

>>5488451
Osamu Tezuka

Read Buddha, Phoenix, and Adolf and then continue your journey with Tezuka from there by just picking whatever of his looks interesting to you.

>> No.5489113

>>5489003
I think he's a pseudo-intellectual addled retard, I like Moebius tho.

>> No.5489179

I really enjoyed his work as a teenager, especially Watchmen and Swamp Thing.

I reread a few of his works since then (and read From Hell for the first time last year), and I'm not as impressed by his token edginess or "lofty" references. I still see value in his writings, but I think they're best read in adolescence.

>> No.5489199

>>5488451
>>5488481
>no Hellboy, no BPRD
Because you actually bought them right?

>> No.5489205

>>5489103
What is that comic...sorry if this is a dumb question, I haven't read the thread,

>> No.5489208

>>5488611
takemitsu Zamurai.

>> No.5489209

>>5489113
Do you also dislike his movies? The ending of the holy mountain shows he is the opposite of a pseudo-intellectual who takes himself too seriously

>> No.5489241

>>5489209
I hate his movies and I never said he took himself seriously

>> No.5489258

>>5489241
Alright, that's cool. He isn't for everyone

>> No.5489261

>>5489179
It has a lot of content in terms of visual prose. Reading Moore for his plot is pretty much as stupid as reading most authors for plot.

>> No.5489288

>>5489205
Check the filename, it's Buddha by Osamu Tezuka.

>> No.5489303

I like From Hell, he doesn't shoehorn his childish political opinions so much there. He does shoehorn his religious opinions, but that aren't so immature.

>> No.5489325
File: 1011 KB, 900x1000, 85937c8f1df9fe4b63dc5bb5847e51b8.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5489325

>>5489209
He should maybe take movies a bit more seirously, Holly Mountain would had been ignored if not for most of the imagery that served little purpose even if some sequences have stronge value. That's why Santa Sangre and all his other movies are ignored, they feel like the same shit; you can compare him with Fellini, who also had surrealist references but made his movies close units.

>> No.5489334

>>5485560
⇒Alan Moore

Since i'm a highly intelligent STEMfag i don't read popshit like him

>> No.5489337

>>5489261
I wasn't saying anything about his plots. He overloads his written and visual prose with unnecessary references. Probably the worst example is LoEG, where virtually every object, person and place is a reference for reference's sake from some Victorian pulp. And maybe I should give him credit for "pioneering" the archetype in comics, but he relies on the gritty anti-hero narrator too often for my interest.

>> No.5489344

>>5489334
⇒go be highly intelligent somewhere else

>> No.5489347

>>5485560
I've read Watchmen and thought the film was actually better, despite all his bitching (the film still sucks, obviously). Never bothered with anything else he did, because comics are pretty lame and I have better things to do.

>> No.5489354

>>5489347
Like posting on a chinese imageboard?

>> No.5489356

>>5489354
⇒rekt

>> No.5489359

>>5489354
Like posting about his superiority on an American imageboard.

>> No.5489362

>>5489354
Well yeah lol

>> No.5489365

>>5489344
⇝you're arrow a shit.

>> No.5489367

>>5489347
⇒I don't have time for comics
⇒I have time for movies that only take the plot of the comic
Don't do that to yourself. If you want to really use your time it's great, but a Snyder movie is the antithesis of that.

>> No.5489370

If I want to read comics I'll stick to jap toons, at least they have cute moes.

>> No.5489387

>>5485560
I thought the Watchman were great, The Man Who has Everything was a great Superman story, and the killing joke was good for what it was. V for Vendetta was alright. I do like the works I've read even if Moore is a bitter ol' silly magician.

>> No.5489394

>>5489367
I think comics are a pretty limited medium.
Maybe at some point in the future it will mature as an art form, but at the moment...

>> No.5489398

>>5489394
But superhero movies are the peak of human artistic expression :^)

>> No.5489401

>>5487561
Wow this is almost the exact comment I had pictured in my head before opening this thread

>> No.5489404

>>5489367
⇒caring about comics

Are there really people older than 12 who do this?

>> No.5489418

>>5489404
Manchildren?

>> No.5489428

>>5489418
Those don't belong on /lit/.

>> No.5489434

>>5489428
I would concur, but this is the most Marxist board

>> No.5489436

>>5488396
Depends on what you mean, there's a lot of other good yurops like Hugo Pratt (and even in Corto Maltese there's a bunch of lit refs) and Moebius

There are Japanese artists with western lit influence, like Hagio Moto being bffs with Ray Bradbury and doing a graphic novel version of his stuff called R is For Rocket and Jiro Taniguchi making Icaro with Moebius. Reiko Okano made a manga version of The Forgotten Beasts of Eld that is apparently amazing but it's only in Italian and Japanese. There's also some good manga that take place in the west like Me & The Devil Blues, Innocent, The Kids Are Alright, probably a lot more than that...

Some like Tezuka, Riyoko Ikeda, Katsuhiro Otomo, Suehiro Maruo and Satoshi Kon are known for their influence by film or their other work in film and theater so they are probably also good choices to look into

>> No.5489441

>>5489398
Not at all. I'm just very interested in film and exactly how it develops. So, yeah, I watch crappy movies from time to time, but usually I think one can learn something from them. For instance, exactly what the recent massive popularity of the superhero genre can tell us about modern society.

>> No.5489444

>>5489434
No, this is a literature board. Marxist shit belongs on >>>/pol/.

>> No.5489448

>>5485560
>What are your thought about an obvious genius and legitimate wizard?
>Did you find your life profoundly changed by his works?

>> No.5489452

>>5489434
>this is the most Marxist board
Stop forcing this shit

>> No.5489455

>>5489394
⇒Comics are a limited medium
Unlike shitty blockbuster inferior movies?
⇒mature as an art form?
Why do people think that a medium is an art form? Some comics are art, some music is art; not all music is art, not all comics are art.

>> No.5489463

>>5487561
Pretty much. Cape comics are cancer.

>>5489404
Just like people care about books or music. If you don't like it it's okay, it's not for you.

>> No.5489465

>>5489434
>>5489418
Feminister was better.

>> No.5489469

>>5489455
⇒Some comics are art
No, please look up what art means.

>>5489463
⇒Just like people care about books or music
But there are mature books and mature music. Comics on the other hand are a medium for children.

>> No.5489473

>>5489394
as long as you don't include manga along with comics then we good

>> No.5489475

>>5489465
The distinction between feminism and Marxism is nominal.

>> No.5489477

>>5487626sage
>Alan Moore hates comics ...
>>5489441
>For instance, exactly what the recent massive popularity of the superhero genre can tell us about modern society.

It's interesting to go back to the original discussions (e.g. on Usenet) at the time that Watchmen was first being published. The common feeling at the time was that:
- Moore hates superhero comics
- Moore is trying to destroy superhero comics
- I can't see how anyone can ever take superhero comics seriously after this
etc. etc. It really was a kick in the pants to the superhero comics that were being published then. Moore has actually said that he expected it would lead to disenchantment with the genre. Actually, all it did was lead to a revitalized genre with more "complex" characters that were psychotic/distant/amoral/weak-willed/bitchy/what-have-you.

It is funny how much this plan backfired and how it made superheroes, not just even more popular, but fodder for collegiate level studies. Now people can dream of getting a PhD in knowing the many gods and sub-gods of the Marvel Universe

>> No.5489479

>>5489455
>Unlike shitty blockbuster inferior movies?
See: >>5489441
>Some comics are art, some music is art; not all music is art, not all comics are art.
I disagree. All of it is art, most of it isn't very good art.

>>5489444
Well, there's quite a lot of Marxist literature, so...

>> No.5489480

>>5489475
They are opposites.

>> No.5489484

>>5489480
Considering Marxism wants to do away with marriage and the family, I don't think so.

>> No.5489485

>>5488462
I love moebius but I read The Incal and thought the story/writing was shite. If it was inspired by his Dune script then I'm glad it wasn't made.

>> No.5489498

>>5489484
You know nothing about Marxism. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

>> No.5489502

>>5489485
The metabaron is the Dune script

>> No.5489504

>>5489498
I've probably read more Marx than you have.

>> No.5489506

>>5489504
I doubt it. Either way, you've understood considerably less than I have.

>> No.5489522

>>5489484
Please fuck off back to >>>/pol/ with your ignorance.

>>5489498
>>5489504
Knowing flawed ideology is nothing to be proud of. That's like going to /sci/ and bragging about your knowledge of astrology. Please stop being retarded. Everyone with common sense sees why your /pol/ shit is wrong.

>> No.5489523 [SPOILER] 
File: 1.29 MB, 2200x3037, 1411762552023.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5489523

>>5489337
>I wasn't saying anything about his plots. He overloads his written and visual prose with unnecessary references. Probably the worst example is LoEG, where virtually every object, person and place is a reference for reference's sake from some Victorian pulp.

GEE I WONDER WHERE HE TAKES THAT FROM

>> No.5489533

>>5489506
I doubt you even understand Hegel, let alone Marx.

>> No.5489535

>>5489469
Comics can be pretty much anything. And they can also be art, as in unique creations with the purpose of generating emotions on the spectator. That's what Adorno and Benjamin agreeded more or less, so the sequential narrative has more room to be art than any film.

>> No.5489536

>>5489469
What does art mean, then?

>> No.5489542

>>5489522
Are you denying that abolition of marriage and family are Marxist goals? they explicitly are.

>> No.5489547

>>5489533
There is nothing to be understood.

>> No.5489549

>>5489479
⇒All of it is art, most of it isnt very good art.
I hate the idea that art becomes synonym with value. Art isn't good or bad, it just tells us more or less, is more interesting or less, but it can't be bad.
If you make a song to sell albums with selling in mind and you stop there that isn't art. Same with a lot of things.
Las Meninas is art, but painting your ceiling isn't.

>> No.5489553

>>5489549
By Las Meninas you mean the painting that was made for money at the request of the spanish royalty, yes?

>> No.5489557

>>5489535
They cannot be art because they are for children.

>>5489536
You should know what it means.

>>5489542
Please learn to read.

>> No.5489559

>>5489533
Really? Please explain why you doubt it.

>>5489522
Exactly how is it flawed?

>> No.5489568

>>5489557
Actually, it's a real big fucking discussion in art schools just WHAT art means and what can and cannot be considered art or what's left of art after it's done, or if a work of art can be "over" at all, so, the fact that you do know what it means shows you're probably losing some money.

Anyway, I would really like you to explain me what constitutes art and what doesn't.

>> No.5489569

>>5489557
would you débutantes please stop replying to this guy? thank you.

>> No.5489570
File: 24 KB, 442x298, tumblr_mdz89vrHLz1qgofgd[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5489570

sup guys is this the bait munching thread?

>> No.5489573

>>5489485
⇒Moebius has shit plot
That's an absolute. You don't read him for plot.

>>5489337
It's sort of DFW
Yeah, he has a bit of a convoluted visual prose, but you can ignore it more easily than when he writes books.

>>5489557
⇒They cannot be art because they are for children.
⇒Art can't be for children
That's a pretty lousy definition, and I've seen a lot of people with no idea of aesthetics talk about art.

>>5489536
⇒art means
According to adorno and benjamin it's an unique creation that tries to generate feelings on the receiver. It's a specific type of communication.

>>5489553
I mean the painting that was done instead of the protrait the royalty wanted and had such power that they didn't kill the traitor. Yes.

>> No.5489579

>>5489570
Revv up those doubles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4W56w-eCGI

>> No.5489583

>>5489573
>⇒Moebius has shit plot
>That's an absolute. You don't read him for plot.

Jodorowsky wrote The Incal. I love the wacky narrative of stuff like Airtight Garage which Moebius wrote.

>> No.5489584

>>5489559
>Really? Please explain why you doubt it.
Because you think that mentioning that Marx wants to do away with marriage and the family means that person knows nothing about Marx, even though Marx was overt in the idea that marriage and family are simply institutions for managing private property and inheritance, which of course Marx wants to do away with.

As for Hegel: if one is an idiot, one cannot understand Hegel.

>> No.5489587

>>5489573
Except Adorno (kek) and Benjamin (who had his heart in his right place) were writing about a somewhat limitad view of SOME of the german expressionists, but even if we don't take into account whatever Dada and surrealism was doing back then, you still have pop, land art, conceptualism and a lot of work that goes against their definitions and limits of art and is still art.

>> No.5489593

>>5489549
I didn't say it is synonymous with value, just that it can possess value. Whether "it tells us more or less" (in other words, is more or less meaningful) is part of the way in which it can be valued.

If you produce art for purely commercial reasons, it is flawed for that reason, but still art.

>> No.5489595

>>5489559
If you cannot see how it's flawed, then you might be intellectually impaired and no explanation can help you. Enjoy living a life with reduced cognitive capacities.

>>5489568
Art is objective and not a matter of consensus.

>>5489584
Fuck off to >>>/pol/

>> No.5489603

>>5489595
>waah he criticized Marxism!

>> No.5489605

>>5489595
Yeah, if you want to believe that, alright, go ahead.


But really, you're not right by any serious accounts of contemporary (or modern, most likely) art theory

>> No.5489607

>>5489603
Marxism belongs on >>>/pol/. Fuck off retard.

>> No.5489617

>>5489605
Appeal to authority is a fallacy.

>> No.5489620

>>5489607
I agree.

>> No.5489622

>>5489584
No, I think saying that the "distinction between Marxism and feminism is nominal" means you know nothing about Marxism.

>>5489595
It clearly suggests more about what you know, and your lack of ability to explain it.

>> No.5489623

>>5489583
You can enjoy it and all, but it isn't his strong point. That's all I meant, brop.

>>5489587
Pop was american propaganda, no one outside of the states thinks warhol was more than some public figure they showed around to validate merchandise.
But yeah, Frankfurt is quite outdate. Even besides "modern" art it fails to understand traditional art in periphery cultures. It's just a very easy and general definition to start with, I doubt they expected their ideas to remain valid for centuries anyway.
Hans Gregor Gadamer has a nice characterisation of what's art based on the feelings it generates, but you can still use the big filter of Frankfurt before.

>> No.5489631

Go to another thread fagbaits.

>> No.5489633

Ellis' Planetary is sci-fi lit. It's got everything from chinese ghost stories to pulp references to Doc Savage, Godzilla, dark space gods comic references (the big bads are actually the fantastic 4 ), Jule Verne's voyage to the moon and so much more. and it's got an overarching story that is just plain good.

>> No.5489637

>>5489622
Actually it means he doesn't know shit about feminism. Stop being an illiterate fucktard.

>> No.5489638

>>5489607
And low-quality trolls belong on /b/, and low-quality bait-gobblers belong on /tumblr/, and why don't you all fuck off?

>> No.5489646

>>5489593
More meaningful is value, saying more or less is just a choice in the work to be louder or quieter.

Nah, if done purely for money it's craftsmanship. And it's okay, nothing to feel ashamed about it; the idea that it's inferior comes from the same place that says "art" is a value judgment (>this meal is art!). You can make money with art, sure, but if you weren't doing art but money then it isn't art.

>> No.5489647

>>5489622
>No, I think saying that the "distinction between Marxism and feminism is nominal" means you know nothing about Marxism.
I know enough to know that feminist theory came directly from Marx's and Engels's ideas on women.

>> No.5489652

>>5489620
fuck off

>>5489638
tell me more

>> No.5489654

>>5489617
The thing is, I really give zero fucks about muh fallacy, mostly because my goal is to write about art, and secondly, because you fail to provide a complete meaning to "art", and the one you do provide is extremely outdated.

>>5489623
Well, if you want to avoid pop, what about nouveau realisme, new concretism, land art (still), whatever little production is left of the situationists and arte povera?

These descriptions (I never heard Gadamer, but I do know he's in the bibliography of a topics in modern aesthethics course I'll take on the next semester) seem to fall flat or be too "loose" most of the time, but I'll have to wait and see

>> No.5489659

>>5489633
Ellis is a hack.
He writes for teens because he never passed his own teens.
I hope someone cuts off his bad leg and fucks him with it while screaming "how do you like THIS transhumanism"

>> No.5489660

>>5489647
No, it didn't, you retarded piece of shit /pol/tard.

>> No.5489672

>>5489637
It means both.

>>5489647
Feminist theory began in the eighteenth century. Later feminist theory was greatly influenced by Marxism, no doubt. However, that's not what you said, is it?

>> No.5489673

Fuck off political normies, we're talking about wizards and neckbeards

>> No.5489674
File: 13 KB, 480x323, 4.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5489674

>>5489660
Yes it did. The Second Sex was 90% plagiarism of Marx and Engels.

>> No.5489679

>>5489660
Is this bait?

>> No.5489684

>Alan Moore

I fink e's a couple a' stops short of Dagenham m8.

Barking... knowotImean

>> No.5489685

>>5489672
>Feminist theory began in the eighteenth century.
There was no feminist work in the 1700's that qualified as 'theory' in any academic sense.

>> No.5489686

>>5489674
Go be stupid on >>>/pol/. You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>5489679
Are you retarded?

>> No.5489691

>>5489654
I divided there since I had to check to make sure. Gadamer says art can be understood as a game, as a celebration and as a symbol (I always forget the last one since I read him before Pierce and now all I can think about symbols goes back to the big P)

The idea, in a hyper summary, is that those three scenarios have specific reactions in their correspondent culture. He ties aesthetics with anthropology, which should had been done since the beginning, and focuses on how each culture feels during what they instinctively recognize as art, keeping the focus in interpretation but opening the game field to the masses (which, again, is funny how Frankfurt failed to do being marxists and all that).

It's absurdly easy to read too, you don't really need a professor guiding the reading or contextualization or anything.
I'm sure people have rejected his ideas, as it tends to happen, but it's an interesting take,

>> No.5489702
File: 91 KB, 753x576, feminister is a retard.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5489702

>>5489674
Hi Feminister. Tell us about your "beta bf".

>> No.5489710

Go have your cancerous discussion somewhere else

>> No.5489713

>>5489702
I took that off of a Google search for reaction face just now....

>> No.5489714

>>5489685
Please define what you consider to be the 'academic sense' of 'theory'. More importantly, evidence your claim that feminism and Marxism are only nominally distinct.

>>5489674
De Beauvoir was a Marxist, so her ideas are to a certain extent a development of Marxist ideas. If you are going to state that it was 9/10 plagiarism, then you really have to back that up.

>> No.5489720

>>5489713
What kind of meds are you taking?

>> No.5489726
File: 344 KB, 1915x968, filename.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5489726

dumbass

>> No.5489728

>>5489674
De Beauvoir did not invent feminism. Your ignorance is cancerous.

>> No.5489729

>>5489702
Not that samefag, but people tend to grab images off G-search without renaming them
(relatedly, I tend to rename stuff I grab from here with the name it was posted with if it seems specific, for the odd ensuing confusion)

>> No.5489738

>>5489726
What did you search?

>> No.5489742

>>5489646
The first sentence of that comment is incomprehensible.

And no, craftsmanship applies to craft-work - things made to provide a utilitarian function. A painting or a novel made for monetary purposes is not a work of craftsmanship.

>> No.5489748

>>5489729
It's a well known fact that this tripfag is the shitposter formerly known as Feminister. Just compare their style, their topics and their ignorance.

>> No.5489757

>>5489714
>Please define what you consider to be the 'academic sense' of 'theory'. More importantly, evidence your claim that feminism and Marxism are only nominally distinct.
I mean a comprehensive theory that explains social conditions.

Explain how her historical theory of how women got oppressed is any different from Marx's.

>> No.5489758

>>5489748
>paying this much attention to tripcunts
You are the malignant tumor.

>> No.5489763

>>5489757
If you don't see the differences, you won't understand them when we explain them to you either. You might be just too stupid.

>> No.5489781

>>5489742
The utilitarian function is entertaining the reader or making a wall look good. Or are you saying propaganda has no utilitarian function.

Yeah, it was a horrible sentence. What I mean was:
Saying that something has more meaning is not the same as having more content. It implies a judgment of value that isn't needed in a work of art since it's an unique piece that can be more or less anything.
Better?

>> No.5489788

G
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>> No.5489800

>>5489763
weak, brah

>> No.5489830

>>5489757
>I mean a comprehensive theory that explains social conditions.
Nonsense. A theory is still a theory whether or not it lacks comprehensiveness or adequately explains anything. These are just values a theory may or may not have.

Well, for a start, she was very clearly influenced by Freud, Sartre and others who were later than Marx and so clearly could not have contributed to his theory. Her writing on the subject is also clearly much more detailed than anything written by Marx.

>> No.5489837

>>5489830
A theory is still a theory in a casual sense, but you're anally raping the term if you think applying it to whatever is proper academically.

She whined about Freud, nothing she agrees with him about has anything to do with oppression. Everything she took from Sartre was stuff Sartre took almost completely from Hegel.

>> No.5489839

>>5489800
Your emotions don't change facts.

>> No.5489844

>>5489839
If I thought they did, I'd be a Marxist/feminist :^)

>> No.5489848

>>5489781
The aesthetic power of a work of art is not a utilitarian function as I understand the term. Propaganda certainly does, yes, so I suppose it would be categorized as a 'craft'.

Better to a certain extent, but I don't think I can answer yet as I'm not sure what you mean by 'content'.

>> No.5489850

>>5489844
You are. Please fuck off to >>>/pol/ where you can circlejerk with equally damaged individuals.

>> No.5489856

>>5489850
>only lefties on my precious board

>> No.5489863

>>5489856
This is a literature board. All political ideology shit belongs on >>>/pol/. Kill yourself, autist.

>> No.5489925

>>5489830
I am disgusted by the number of 'clearlys' in this comment. My apologies - no one should have to read that.

>>5489837
The author of a theory should aspire to these qualities in order to be taken seriously, but that does not affect its status as a theory. It's a general, not a casual, definition.

Freudianism is the origin of a substantial part of her method of analysis (that is, the psychological part). Examples for Sartre statement?

>> No.5489958

>>5489925
>The author of a theory should aspire to these qualities in order to be taken seriously, but that does not affect its status as a theory. It's a general, not a casual, definition.
Theory in academics has a more than casual connotation, because academics aren't casual.

Her the Freudian psychological part doesn't address oppression. The psychological part that addresses oppression is Sartre.

Sartre's entire idea of subject-object, and how we need difference to realize ourselves, but how we hate that difference because it is not us, and so we desire to 'have' it. That is completely lifted from Hegel.

>> No.5489960

>>5488451
>saga
>fables
>django unchained
/co/ has better taste than you

>> No.5489979

I tough this was Literature. Not comicbook shit. GTFO

>> No.5490060

>>5489958
Again, it's a general, not a casual, definition.

I don't agree with you, but this argument won't get anywhere without finding my copy and embarking on a close textual analysis. I'm not in the mood, so I'll leave it there.

>> No.5490093

>>5490060
I specified "academic" from the start so as to distinguish from general or casual.

If you don't agree with me, then you probably haven't read Phenomenology of the Spirit.

Here, read this section: https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hegel/works/ph/phba.htm