/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5482155]

Odd question /lit/. What do you guys think of the bible? In a subjective, nonreligious way, Do you guys think its a good book? Basically, is the bible a good book if you take out the religious aspect of it?

[Anonymous No.5482165]

>>5482155
mediocre book

it's trendy is the trendiest way, a religion.

most of it is shit

most of it was lost

king james practically adhered to greed and threw away the parts that were to difficult to believe even for simple minded peasants too afraid to do anything against the church or the kings or any political power due to 'muh burn in hell'.

So, yeah.

Mediocre, it's exaggerated due to its trendyness.

>but it influenced everything

yeah, most shit things do have the most influence.

[Anonymous No.5482189]

It's literally the story of God. Also known as the universe. Not exactly light reading.

[Anonymous No.5482190]

>>5482155
Genesis, Exodus, Job, and all four Gospels are among the greatest works ever written in any language. (The KJV translations are quite poetic too.) Probably some other books too...Kings, Samuel, Paul's letters to the Romans.

[Anonymous No.5482193]

>>5482155

Was planning to become a (Catholic) priest at one point, bailed out though. How's the bible?

Historically fascinating. Studying the text in context reveals a rich mythic tradition, complex and weighty philosophical debates which still resound in modern society, and a culturally fascinating, bloody, and juicy history.

It's often misused as all religious texts are, but that's partially because so many authors were involved that they couldn't agree on anything. You can argue for or against anything with the book; anyone who says "This is what the book objectively meant by saying this" is bullshitting, including popes. Read about the concept of the ordinary and universal magisterium with respect to the mass being read in the vulgate and women being unable to be priests and you'll see what I mean.

As far as readability, it's WIDELY varying in quality due to its varying authorship. Any book which includes significant amounts of religious genealogy is shit tier for actual reading, but some sections are legitimately interesting, breezy stuff.

I can probably answer religious questions if you guys have any.

[Anonymous No.5482206]

>>5482193
>Was planning to become a (Catholic) priest at one point, bailed out though. How's the bible?
Which order?

[Anonymous No.5482211]

>>5482189

also known as a bunch of rubbish

less entertaining than the average fantasy novel.

[Anonymous No.5482218]

>>5482206

Carmelites. It was largely a period of self study during college, though.

[Anonymous No.5482222]

>>5482211
expected response.

[Anonymous No.5482228]

>>5482222
dem quads

[Anonymous No.5482231]

>>5482193
What do you think Christianity would have been without Paul? Would it ever have gotten big? Would it have become something else entirely?

[Anonymous No.5482239]

the gospels make a good novel. the J strain of Genesis is good. Job. The Psalms are worth reading and and re-reading. There's a lot of good stuff in the Bible.

/not a theist

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.5482240]

>>5482155
>if you take out the religious aspect of it?
They have one of those.

[Anonymous No.5482246]

>>5482218
Ha, I wanted to be a Jesuit but I would have had to pull some Matthew Lewis' The Monk shit. Aren't the Carmelites most likely to see The Divine? I mean in this life, not most likely to be sainted.

[Anonymous No.5482259]

>>5482189
>it's literally the story of God, also known as the universe


No, it's actually a third about a bastard god who has temper tantrums and destroys things based on the emotions of a five year old who's toy stopped working after he threw it against the wall too many times.

and two-thirds about what that toy having Stockholm syndrome.


If you want to talk about the New Testament ...well....it's basically a bunch of homoerotic circle jerking about some random Jew that the roman empire killed because they saw this idiot walking around saying he was king, and at the time the Emperor (or King) of the Roman Empire was seen as a God, and that any mockery of it was to be punished by death.


That's it.

In the end, it's boring desert nomad stories .

[Anonymous No.5482262]

>>5482190
>not mentioning revelations
>not mentioning the Maccabbee's
>not mentioning Ecclesiastes

>mentions exodus
>mentions Samuel

Well, we know who's taste is shit.

Job was shit too.

[Anonymous No.5482264]

>>5482259
>not wanting to talk to bears in the desert
I bet you never have adventures

[Anonymous No.5482275]

>>5482264
>bears
>in the desert

>bears
>in the desert

Think about that for a second.

[Anonymous No.5482279]

>>5482262
Revelations is cool but it's a little "insane apocalyptic visions that you tell people about to convince them the Bible is cool reading." Like it's kind of entry-level edgelord Bible. I still like it though.

I don't remember Maccabbees well enough to include it

Ecclesiastes was a major oversight, I agree with you on that.

[Anonymous No.5482281]

>>5482231

I'm of the opinion that Paul is one of the most critical church figures and was a major shaper of what became modern theology.

Sans Paul, I suspect Christianity would have looked substantially more like Buddhism, which is divided into at least three major sects. I belive that as a powerful regional influence, it would have spread with or without Paul. However, Paul's epistles were responsible for codifying a substantial amount within the faith and substantial clarification of "existing" canon. His influence on Roman Catholicism, which spread to Augustine, laid the foundation for a Christian Rome and by extension a Christian western world, which created a "standard" for the faith.

Sans Paul, I am of the opinion that the church would not have necessarily reached Rome in the way that it did, and in the short term would have looked much more like immediate post-christ Christianity, with female priests, teaching in the language of the people, and a focus on moral teachings. Long term I'd also expect you would've seen significant splintering without specific texts to argue as canon, with the divinity of Christ being a sticking point dividng the church into camps of "Jesus as divine but not man", "Jesus as philosopher but not divine", etc.

Church "mystery" historically usually means that at some point someone got into a very heated argument about the issue based on philosophical, personal, textual, or logical grounds. Paul had a stance on most of such mysteries.

[Anonymous No.5482293]

>>5482281
Imagine a world without Paul.....

how peaceful it would have been.

[Anonymous No.5482297]

>>5482279
m8 you tell people about the canticle of canticles if you want the to read the bible
>>5482281
Paul's pretty zen mystic in places- in regard to charity for a well known example, he talks about being "known as one is known" in a sense that won't really gain force again until Hegel.

[Anonymous No.5482301]

>>5482275
maybe it was in the arctic

[Anonymous No.5482320]

>>5482293

Don't jump to that conclusion. Warmongers will warmongle with whatever is relevant to the population. Codifying standards actually provided something for disparate tribes to rally under and likely played a significant stabilizing factor in Rome's expansion into new populations and in their development of society.

>>5482297

I wouldn't go so far as to bring Hegel into the conversation, I'm not sure the idea applied. If you must, John's concept of "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and made its dwelling among us" could be relevant to that concept of being, though it's a bit sketchy.

If you want to argue for zen in the bible, you don't need to go much further than several zen koans related to Christianity. I'll post it in a minute because it's pretty good.

[Anonymous No.5482321]

>>5482275
K I like thinking about bears. Would you like to think about them for a second too? The Gobi bear is my favourite desert bear, but feel free to consider your own personal favourite desert bear for a second.
>>5482301
This is a good desert bear too. They we're from Ireland originally, but they moved because it rains a lot there and being a desert bear is better.

[Anonymous No.5482322]

A reduced length version of one such Koan:

A university student while visiting Gasan asked him: "Have you ever read the Christian Bible?"

"No, read it to me," said Gasan.

The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for rainment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these... Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."

Gasan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man."

The student continued reading: "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened."

Gasan remarked: "That is excellent. Whoever said that is not far from Buddhahood."

[Anonymous No.5482333]

>>5482320
>I wouldn't go so far as to bring Hegel into the conversation, I'm not sure the idea applied. If you must, John's concept of "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and made its dwelling among us" could be relevant to that concept of being, though it's a bit sketchy.

Uh, that's far less Hegelian than the synthesis of God and Man's knowledge in Corinthians 13. In fact I'm not sure you've read Hegel to think that chapter is incompatiable with his understanding of Fichte or concept of Spirit, and that John is closer. I guess you just want to post shit you have read rather than analyse Coronthians, so yeah, do that.

[Anonymous No.5482340]

>>5482321
>the Gobi bear

>.< THAT'S NOT THE MIDDLE EAST YOU FUKKIN GOON

BTFO

[Anonymous No.5482345]

>>5482322
Go on.

[Anonymous No.5482348]

>>5482340
You didn't ask me to think about the ones in the Bible. The arctic is also not in the Middle East but still contains desert and bears, in case you think that will make it a double blow out.

[Anonymous No.5482352]

>>5482333

To be honest and for the sake of full disclosure, I don't know enough about Hegelian philosophy to be dangerous.

I'm working off of what little I do understand and from those he influenced. Having tried to do legwork reading troll Heidegger threads to see why he is so popular here, I'm aware that the concept of Dasein could have interesting interactions with that passage's interpretation, but I can't speak for the whole there.

>>5482345

I accidentally left that statement at the top. I was going to combine those into one post; but decided to splice a koan would be criminal.

[Anonymous No.5482362]

Not OP, but I'm interested in reading it and decided to go for KJV; any specific version/edition you recommend (due to readability, paper type, etc.)?

[Anonymous No.5482372]

>>5482240
That's not what OP means. He doesn't mean "if you remove any mention of supernatural events," he means "if you treat those events simply as part of the story and narrative, not as fact."

[Anonymous No.5482383]

>>5482345

Also, if it's any consolation for not having more, I believe many koans if interpreted (Yes, you're not supposed to do that if you're meditating, but from a perspective of pedagogy it's fine) can be read through a Christian lens and still give significant insight. I'll post another one in a two part post soon, because I really love koans.

>>5482362

King James has beautiful imagery. However, it's also sometimes poorly translated and kind of abstruse because of its lingual oldisms. NIV is a good baseline. If you've read the bible already and want some fun, read the gospel in Hawaiian pidgin, it's a pleasure

1 Dis book tell bout Jesus an his ancesta guys. He da Christ, da Spesho Guy God Wen Send. He from King David ohana, an David, he from Abraham ohana.

2 Dis Jesus ohana. Get fourteen faddas from Abraham to David: Abraham, he Isaac fadda. Isaac, he Jacob fadda. Jacob, he Judah fadda, an all Judah bruddas, he dea fadda too. 3 Judah, he Perez an Zerah fadda, an Tamar, she dea mudda. Perez, he Hezron fadda. Hezron, he Ram fadda. 4 Ram, he Aminadab fadda. Aminadab, he Nashon fadda. Nashon, he Salmon fadda. 5 Salmon, he Boaz fadda, an Rahab, she Boaz mudda. Boaz, he Obed fadda, an Ruth, she Obed mudda. Obed, he Jesse fadda. 6 Jesse, he King David fadda.

[Anonymous No.5482384]

>>5482240
I like that cover

[Anonymous No.5482385]

>>5482352
Hegel's dialectic focus makes it easier to assume a knowing as one is known than other logic. A short (and therefore slightly inaccurate) summary is that the culmination of existences is God, and He is being slowly realised by the process of existence. Not so much Dasein as aletheia in Heidegger's terms, but I know less about Heideggerian philosophy to be certain of that.

[Anonymous No.5482391]

>>5482383
The Bible in Hawaiian pidgin is fantastic. Personally I think it's much better heard aloud rather than read though.

[Anonymous No.5482392]

>>5482391

Definitely.

Also, another Koan, (1/2):
"What Are You Doing! What Are You Saying!"

In modern times a great deal of nonsense is talked about masters and disciples, and about the inheritance of a master's teaching by favorite pupils, entitling them to pass the truth on to their adherents. Of course Zen should be imparted in this way, from heart to heart, and in the past it was really accomplished. Silence and humility reigned rather than profession and assertion. The one who received such a teaching kept the matter hidden even after twenty years. Not until another discovered through his own need that a real master was at hand was it learned hat the teaching had been imparted, and even then the occasion arose quite naturally and the teaching made its way in its own right. Under no circumstances did the teacher even claim "I am the successor of So-and-so." Such a claim would prove quite the contrary.

The Zen master Mu-nan had only one successor. His name was Shoju. After Shoju had completed his study of Zen, Mu-nan called him into his room. "I am getting old," he said, "and as far as I know, Shoju, you are the only one who will carry on this teaching. Here is a book. It has been passed down from master to master for seven generations. I also have added many points according to my understanding. The book is very valuable, and I am giving it to you to represent your successorship."

[Anonymous No.5482395]

>>5482392

"If the book is such an important thing, you had better keep it," Shoju replied. "I received your Zen without writing and am satisfied with it as it is."

"I know that," said Mu-nan. "Even so, this work has been carried from master to master for seven generations, so you may keep it as a symbol of having received the teaching. Here."

The two happened to be talking before a brazier. The instant Shoju felt the book in his hands he thrust it into the flaming coals. He had no lust for possessions.

Mu-nan, who never had been angry before, yelled: "What are you doing!"

Shoju shouted back: "What are you saying!"

[Anonymous No.5482399]

>>5482391
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRFaTYAv3oM&list=PLxjQKCNPFNUiqzTr65rtKL_De7wkPF_j2

[Anonymous No.5482401]

>>5482399

Oh god, it's the bible as read by futurama's Hermes

[Anonymous No.5482408]

>>5482155
I read it as if everything it says in there is true, and a lot of it is really boring, but it definitely has good parts. I've read a couple of books so far, but after a while it becomes pretty repetitive. The Lord happy, Israel fucks up, Lord Mad. Lord somehow happy again, people fuck up, Lord mad.
So far, St. Matthew is pretty good, though, but only because it's Jesus talking, and it's fun to read what people see as some intensely holy shit.

[Anonymous No.5482415]

>>5482399
this is a surreal experience, thanks
a story i know, in a language i know but it's confusing as hell

[Anonymous No.5482420]

>>5482408

>I read it as if everything it says in there is true

Don't do this. It's cliche as shit for apologists to claim it, but you're not supposed to read it like that. A lot of stuff was at the time meant to be read as a mythic story or as a metaphor for something going on at the time; reading everything as if it were true would be like reading "The Lion, The Witch, And the Wardrobe" in 1,000 years and claiming that C.S. Lewis was actually implying lions talked, Santa is real, and magical wardrobes exist.

The "everything in the bible is religious fact" meme is a strawman which the bad type of atheists love to beat up.

[Anonymous No.5482444]

>>5482383
Any reason in particular to go with DIV asides from the translation?

[Anonymous No.5482465]

>>5482281
This was my question and it's a great answer, thanks.

[Anonymous No.5482467]

>>5482348
>there are no bears in the middle east
>where bible was writted
>day saw bears

lol
in the desert

haha

GOD GETTING BTFO

[Anonymous No.5482475]

>>5482444

If you mean NIV, I reccomend it because one of the big reasons people quit reading the bible a quarter through or earlier is "Thees, thys, and thous hath started to grate". People pick up KJV because they're told it's for some reason the best, and I truly believe this idea's limited the book's readership.

NIV is just pretty easy to understand. The language is modern and is a bit less literal, but it retains a lot of the metaphor and original intent behind the words. I also recomment the New Living Translation because the Gideons are really intense about making sure that in any major populated area you're not farther than 100 meters and a few strange questions from having access to a bible, even to the point that they deliver to prisons.

>>5482465

Anytime, man.

[Anonymous No.5482481]

>>5482322
Any idea where I could find more of these? This is great.

[Anonymous No.5482486]

>>5482467
>Syria isn't in the middle east
>it has no desert
>it has no bears
>the local fauna talking isn't largest obstacle to belief
Good to know, tell us more of your theories of geography and zoology.

[Anonymous No.5482494]

>>5482481

I'm pulling them directly from

http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html

but koans can be found all over the internet and in print. I hate recommending it, but reddit actually used to have several small and dedicated subreddit dedicated to analyzing koans and relevant literature.

Be aware that many koans are absolute dreck. Although they may bring about that state of meditative enlightenment, I was sharing ones I really enjoyed. If you guys care, I'll post more good and relevant ones.

[Anonymous No.5482507]

>>5482475
Oh, that wouldn't be a problem to me, I actually kind of enjoy it even, as with Chaucer.
Will download a version of the NIV however, in order to compare the two and then make my purchase based on that. Thank you!

[Anonymous No.5482539]

>>5482262
>Maccabbees
>Ecclesiastes
Mah nigga

>Shits on Job
>No mention of Daniel
Man, Job's great.

[Anonymous No.5482548]

>>5482494

Posting one more Koan I liked just in case someone cares. I'll check the thread again in the morning if you guys still have questions.

THE FIRST PRINCIPLE

When one goes to Obaku temple in Kyoto he sees carved over the gate the words "The First Principle". The letters are unusually large, and those who appreciate calligraphy always admire them as being a mastepiece. They were drawn by Kosen two hundred years ago.

When the master drew them he did so on paper, from which the workmen made the large carving in wood. As Kosen sketched the letters a bold pupil was with him who had made several gallons of ink for the calligraphy and who never failed to criticise his master's work.

"That is not good," he told Kosen after his first effort.

"How is this one?"

"Poor. Worse than before," pronounced the pupil.

Kosen patiently wrote one sheet after another until eighty-four First Principles had accumulated, still without the approval of the pupil.

Then when the young man stepped outside for a few moments, Kosen thought: "Now this is my chance to escape his keen eye," and he wrote hurriedly, with a mind free from distraction: "The First Principle."

"A masterpiece," pronounced the pupil.

[Anonymous No.5482553]

>>5482399
Best post in months. Well done.

[« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » !mxvabIoSIE No.5482652]

>>5482372
It's asked every day here.
If only it were treated as the mere mythology it is.

>>5482384
Take it. It's yours my friend.