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/lit/ - Literature

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5477838 No.5477838 [Reply] [Original]

Are Visual Novels the most plebeian form of reading ever conceived?

>> No.5477840

>>5477838
sure whatever makes you feel cool

>> No.5477845

yes

>> No.5477877

>>5477838
Well they are 100% dialogue, and thus automatically inferior to most actual prose.

That and the plotlines are anime-tier retarded, so yeah, they are pretty shit.

Read whatever you like though.

>> No.5477892

Hey man, Planetarian was patrician af

>> No.5477917

ITT: people who haven't played Umineko

>> No.5477937

>>5477838
Yes

>> No.5478076

Nothing is stopping them from being great. Everyone thought TV was shit until Sopranos and The Wire came along. The thing is no self respecting writer will ever make a visual novel worth anything so it doesn't matter.

>> No.5478084
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5478084

>>5478076
>yet

I am waiting, because I feel like it's a decent, (Decent) medium to convey a story in.

>tfw i just want a Kar wai wong inspired vn where I can choose the waifu.
... Just watched Days of being Wild

>> No.5478153

>>5478084

The problem is the lack of writing in video games generally. If video games had solid writing then doing a visual novel would be a good entry path for amateur artists and writers but since it is all shit no one bothers. Video games could offer an amazing amount of world interactivity or narrative decision making by the player but it never happens. I keep saying that a Orson Welles or David Chase type is going to come along and show everyone what is up and how video games could be made but it hasn't happened yet.

>> No.5478168
File: 2.75 MB, 267x145, Ni.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5478168

>>5478153
But I mean I would say we have only reached the tech levels to make something like what we are talking about in the last say 20~yrs. I hope in the next 20 we see something, I mean there has to be other out there that see the potential and have the skills.

>I would write a script

>> No.5478179

>>5478084
great movie. watch chunking express man, similar vibes. made in hong kong and last man in the universe are also quite good

>> No.5478183

>>5478076
Prettu much this

90% of VNs are juvenile stories with abysmal dialogue. Competent artist and eriter could work wonders with the medium though

>> No.5478196
File: 6 KB, 275x183, applicable.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5478196

>>5478179
those rec's look good. I have seen most Kar Wai, love them all.

Basically TLDR ITT
>vn has potential as a vehicle
>who is driver????

>> No.5478249

>>5478153
Lol "video games need an Orson Welles" meme. They don't. And video games already have plenty of interesting practitioners outside of your beardo indie underground and AAA military shooter shitgames.

>> No.5478256

>>5478249
There are also good vns, but that should go without saying. I don't trust the taste of genre avoiders. Or people who say "pleb" and "patrician."

>> No.5478273

>>5478256
Wow great argument fagtron you sure convinced everyone with those hot opinions

>> No.5478284

>>5477838
If people are good at writing then they write novels or screenplays or poems, if people are good at making games, they make platformers, rpgs, fighters...etc Nobody who is good at either will make a Visual novel, it's like if you're any good at bowling and or over 12 you don't use the bumpers.

>> No.5478322

>>5477838
I thought so until I read this post

>> No.5478329

>>5478076
>Everyone thought TV was shit until Sopranos and The Wire came along.
Protip, 'Sopranos' and 'The Wire' is utter shit, you should kill yourself for thinking they have any value.

>> No.5478338

>>5477877
they're not 100% dialogue, the main character narrates in Katawa Shoujo

>> No.5478405

>>5477838
Actually I studied litterature last year and I talked to my teachers about visuals novels ; for the most part they thought that it was a pretty shitty media. One of them tried to play to Umineko and disliked it even though he is a huge fan of christie blabla.

And I didn't even mentioned the eroge.

So yeah, to other people, or rather academic I should say, visual novels are the SHIT. but less than your waifu of course.

>> No.5478414

>>5478329
I never watched them, but i always thought those two were like the best shows TV has to offer (from what i hear on 4chan).
If you say they are shit, then what would you call the best?

>> No.5478422

>>5477877
>Well they are 100% dialogue, and thus automatically inferior to most actual prose.
This is only true of very few VNs.

I think VNs have the capability to become a great art form, combining visual art, sound and of course reading. Sound cues or wordless visuals go a long way to enhance the experience, respectively provide an experience normal reading can't.

There are some really well written and atmospheric VNs. Saya no Uta and Shikkoku no Sharnoth come to mind.

Of course, currently 99% is utter trash. But that's because it's still in a ghetto where it's perceived as something weeb/otaku, where no respectable writer will touch it with a ten foot pole for that reason. It'll take a few decades more till they are redeemed, as had to happen with TV or film.

>> No.5478433

>>5478414
They are 'best TV' in the same sense that '1984' is 'best novel'.

>> No.5478437

>>5478433
What is the Citizen Kane of TV shows?

>> No.5478448

>>5478437
Protip, 'Citizen Kane' wasn't even good.

>> No.5478454

It's not made to be a serious literary medium, while there may be some exceptions, the primary design here is cheap and accessible entertainment.

I don't think anyone takes it seriously, perhaps only defensive otakus.

>> No.5478456
File: 510 KB, 1440x900, 1391167205864.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5478456

>>5478414

>falling for the bait

He's fucking with you man.

>> No.5478475

>>5478456
Oh well, okay.

>> No.5478483

>>5478475

Why haven't you given either a shot.

youtube.com/watch?v=VpC3JtED-Po

Impeccable timing, now you cab watch it in HD.

>> No.5478489

>>5478456
No, 'The Wire' is genuinely shit.

>> No.5478490

>>5478483
I live in germany and dont have a TV, so if i wanted to watch a show, i would have to download it. I was just curious if im missing out on something, but dont want to take risks(bad experience with piracy) if the outcome isnt worth it.

>> No.5478494

>There is some sad tv-elitist anon "protip"ing television-related statements in this thread thoroughly as we speak

Fucking disgusting

>> No.5478497

>>5478179
>chunking express
super overrated imo. Not a bad movie though

>> No.5478664

>>5478284
underrated post

>> No.5478666

>>5478329
You're an idiot. The Wire owns.

>> No.5478670

Seriously, people shouldn't be so insistent upon their opinions when they know they're retarded. I suppose there's some resentment there or whatever, but this is basic morality/conscientiousness we're talking about.

>> No.5478672

>>5477838
No.

>implying katawa shoujo and muv luv aren't greater than most of the western canon

Even harold bloom would agreed

>> No.5478738

>>5478666
>The Wire owns.
Yeah, 'The Wire' owns a steaming pile of shit.

>> No.5478775

>>5478738
Cry more about how much you hate life bro.

>> No.5478803
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5478803

>>5478490

It's worth the risk man.

>> No.5478814

>>5478775

You're not really convincing anyone with "brah" "fuck the haters" shit. Fuck off with that, anyway the wire is great and that one autist is probably just trying to stir up trouble.

>> No.5478822

>>5478329
>'Sopranos' and 'The Wire' is utter shit
>'Sopranos' and 'The Wire' is
>is

nah

>> No.5478833

>>5478814
I'm not trying to convince anyone, I was merely irked by that individual's bullshit. And it was crying about life, it's rather obvious.

>> No.5478835

>>5478814
> anyone who disagrees with me must be trolling
'The Wire' is a fucking pretentious, ham-fisted hackjob. Even 'Lost' is a better show.

>> No.5478872

>>5478835
You don't seem to realise, but the stuff you're saying is hilariously revealing. That said, The Wire is a fantastic show filled with clever little interactions, plans, etc. And it's especially brilliant when it comes to women, I laughed so hard at some of the gimmicks they threw up there. Anyhow, enjoy being retarded/buttfrustrated.

>> No.5478874

>>5477838
Street signs are worse.

>> No.5478881

Jesus, The Wire does hate women though.

>> No.5478885

>>5478872
>>That said, The Wire is a fantastic show filled with clever little interactions, plans, etc.

> le hard-drinking hardboiled Irish detective
> le butch lesbian policewoman
> le niggas who sell drugs only to support le little brother
> le niggas who's also a fag, cause we must check le privilege now, praise to great leader

Wow, so clever.
So fantastic.
Wow.

> inb4 "the retardation is le parody and le intentional"

>> No.5478889

>>5478885
Jesus, you're retarded. Since you seem to have missed everything of real cleverness, though, let's do an experiment and you list something clever from some other show. You know, just to see what worth you are as a critic. I mean, anyone can do what you just did there, you spastic ape.

>> No.5478895

>>5478889

I can't fault him since the first part of season one took a bit to warm up to. He can't have given it more of a chance than that. At least he doesn't have to be disappointed with season five.

>> No.5478897

>>5478881
kind of like True Detective? haven't watched the Wire yet

>> No.5478898

>>5478889
>Since you seem to have missed everything of real cleverness,
You're right, I missed all the 'clever' details. They were overshadowed by the cringe-inducing hackneyed writing and the 'issues' that were smashed into the plot with all the elegance of sudden diarrhea in an Old Country Buffet.

> let's do an experiment and you list something clever from some other show.
I don't watch shows for 'cleverness', you mouth-breathing moron. You shouldn't either.

>> No.5478903

I love the medium I watch/read, but when someone proposes an argument as to why it's shit, I jump ship to the next medium that will get me praise when I tell people I indulge in that medium.

Yeah, nah. I love reading stupid things because it makes everything seem so simple, so I don't have to worry my little head over whether the spoon I use every day to stir the coffee, right after my daily adderall intake, is real or not

>> No.5478904

>>5478897
No, True Detective is incredibly mild in its treatment of women. The Wire fucking slaughters them.

Of course it slaughters men, too, but it's much more pungent with women.

>> No.5478909

>>5478898
You are retarded, friend.

>> No.5478921

>>5478904
The writer(s) must have mommy issues.

>> No.5478924

>>5478921
No, it's all perfectly legit/cleverly and artfully incisive, just incredibly visceral for what it is - maybe because it's not something dealt with too often or something, I dunno.

>> No.5478943

>>5478924
I'm itching to watch it now just to understand what you're talking about. I was hoping it would be a little less transparent compared to True Detective, which basically just portrays the women as annoying and whorish

>> No.5478953

>>5478903
Escapism is a legitimate value by which art should be measured by. Even if it's entirely visceral, which it often is, does not mean it is any less worthy of someone's time than something that's not. The problems - and almost all arguments - occur when people start trying to compare. The conclusion being that art that focuses mainly or solely on escapism is available to the masses, art that consists of heavier stuff, stuff that requires thought, or that appeals to the intelligence - to the educated. They can't be weighed fairly against one another because the purpose is different.

Thus far the VN medium has really only produced pieces of escapist art.

>> No.5478957

No. The standard quality for the average book is very low, most visuals novels stand about most of the books that get published today.

>> No.5478960

>>5478943
Yeah, The Wire goes more towards retarded/manipulative/horrendously selfish and crybaby (unless lesbian, the independence of which form men brings some decency).

>> No.5478970

>>5478405
Did they play with original or PS3 sprites? This is important

>> No.5478990

>>5478960
Definitely know someone like that so this should be interesting

>> No.5479009

>>5478909
I'm not your friend.

>> No.5479019

>>5479009
StAY MAD.

>> No.5479028

>>5477838
The terms "plebian" and "patrician" to be meaningfully used require the medium to have some tradition and depth. You can only call VN "pleb", if you put it together with the rest of literature. In this case, I would call fan fiction even more plebian.

VN are in a strange place, since people who write visual novels, generally, do it because it is easier than making a game, a book or a graphic novel. It's a mix of these kinds of more traditional mediums. So, someone could suppose that the medium is flawed in its base (mashup of almost book, almost game, almost manga), since it could be seen as a step (or a failed/frustrated attempt) for a more established medium.

Anyway, tbh, I hope that i'm wrong and that eventually some great artist can make a great VN. I do think The Walking Dead, as well as Katawa Shoujo, show promise, but, still, a great artist would probably be better off doing his art on tradtitional mediums.

>> No.5479033

>>5479028
>easier than making a book

Well, if you hire the artist, the musician and let someone code everything correctly for you, then sure. Strictly writing a VN would be a piece of cake with an idea, but that's just not all there is to it

>> No.5479065

>>5478076
>>5478084
>>5478183

TV is still shit.

That's two shows out of....what? God knows how fucking many anti-intellectual brain melting anti-art, anti-life, anti-anything sewage shit was spewed onto the screen.

Garbage.

And the Sopranos wasn't even that fucking good, and the Wire is overrated.

>> No.5479069

>>5479065
Woah dude, please contain your patricianity. I'm feeling it from way over here and I feel slightly uncomfortable with this urge to read something intellectual.

>> No.5479079

>>5477838
Thank you EBOLA CHAN

>> No.5479122

>>5479065
House M.D. is an absolutely awesome TV show, too. There's a bunch of awesome and super clever TV shows, it's just that's not where the money was. And then we get onto film...

>> No.5479135

>>5479122
MD was good for around 4 seasons

>> No.5479200

>>5479135
I thought pretty much the entirety of it was awesome, but whatever. They should bring it back for one episode where it actually is sarcoidosis though.

>> No.5479217

>>5479028
>using "pleb" and "patrician" "meaningfully" instead of as all-purpose put downs

>> No.5479245

>>5478889
Anon is right. The Wire was full of cop show cliches, the most pernicious being the one about drug users and drug sellers being young black men. Nevermind how many white ppl use and sell. It spreads negative stereotypes as sociological fact.

I remember one scene where a cop is semi-randomly shot and cut, two co-workers are shown suddenly no longer able to contain their lust. See? Sex/death/sex/death cutting back and forth. Never seen that in a cop show ever.

I'm not anti-tv, though, even dumb tv.

>> No.5479261

>>5478448
Citizen Kane is good, but it should be appreciated for the vaudevillian tour-de-force of meta-cinema that it is. It's almost a joke about movie making.

>> No.5479281

>>5478076
>sopranos
>the wire
They're great shows, but you have to be retarded to believe they're the first "patrician" shows.

>> No.5479289

>>5479281
what would you say are among the first "patrician" shows?

>> No.5479291

>>5479245
No anon was wrong, and you too are wrong. The show wasn't to enforce stereotypes, but to foster sympathy. And if you haven't seen the whole sex/death/sex thing before, then you're a bit ridiculous dude -- it's real; not like it doesn't belong in cop dramas because it's real...

>> No.5479300

>>5479289
Doctor Who, for one.

>> No.5479311

>>5479291
Reminder that numerous cultures throughout human history literally sacrificed women to the gods.

>> No.5479316

>>5479245

The second season was all white people as far as the drugs went. That they even bothered with that though is surprising considering how predominantly black Baltimore is.

>> No.5479418

>>5479316
That was to reconcile white and black, and it did a pretty good job of it, too.

>> No.5479433

>>5479418
Ziggy and his cousin were absolute genius tbh.

>> No.5479490

>>5479122
>clever
Goddamn, there's that word again! You sure you're on the right board?

>> No.5479640

>>5478322
Fucking contrarian.

>> No.5479645

>>5477838
I used to think so; then LSA said he was making one.

Now I'm waiting.

>> No.5479836

>>5479300
how the mighty have fallen

>> No.5480059

>>5479291
That was my point, that it was a procedural cop melodrama cliche. Just because the writers have a few opinions about local politics, race, law enforcement, schools, and the drug trade, that doesn't mean those opinions aren't hung on a bog standard cop melodrama twiddling its thumbs.

As if we need more white people (eg David Simon, Ed Burns, Richard Price) writing about the experiences of black people. Or white audiences pathologizing a basically fictionalized black community.

Instead of slogging through many hours of gussied up soap opera plotting, my time is better spent reading Burns and Simon's book and dealing with their crypto-conservatism dealt in a much more compact form.

>> No.5480078

Rin is best girl.

>> No.5480088
File: 9 KB, 250x250, shiggy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5480088

>>5478672
>Harold Bloom

>> No.5480091

>>5477838
katawa shoujo
shitty example of a VN bro

>posts infinite jest
are novels the most plebeian form of reading ever conceived?

>> No.5480165

>>5478405
>Umineko
>good

Should have recommended Kara no Shoujo.

>> No.5480173

Name one book, play, movie, video game or tv show that would be able to present and deliver and execute the story of Zero Escape: 999: 9 Hours, 9 Persons, 9 Doors.

>> No.5480176
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5480176

>>5477877
>100% dialogue

No they aren't.

>> No.5480180

>>5480173

protip: You can't