Why has 3rd wave feminism failed so hard?

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Anonymous Tue Sep 23 03:07:10 2014 No.5473322 [DELETED]

Why has 3rd wave feminism failed so hard?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 03:08:23 2014 No.5473324 http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/feminism-and-its-discontents_795395.html muh constructs

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 03:19:34 2014 No.5473350 Because second-wave feminism was undergirded the neoliberal agenda

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 03:44:41 2014 No.5473408 >>5473322 >that pic

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 09:47:31 2014 No.5474166 how to destroy a sjw with one question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUBoWi37Y8o

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 09:55:01 2014 No.5474190 >>5474166 >my favorite bible quote Ugh. It's a bunch of sophism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 09:55:47 2014 No.5474193 >>5473322 > Failed The same way as marxists "failed", huh?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 09:56:00 2014 No.5474195 >>5473322 Butler is actually a good theorist though, she hates modern feminism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 09:57:01 2014 No.5474198 >>5473322 >>>/pol/

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 14:34:52 2014 No.5475039 >>5473322 Because they solved most of their problems so they have to make up new ones.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 14:38:58 2014 No.5475054 >>5474195 >Butler is actually a good theorist though massivekek

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 14:57:28 2014 No.5475131 >>5473322 Because it's completely detached from reality

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 14:57:53 2014 No.5475135 >>5474198 >no dissent allowed

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 14:59:20 2014 No.5475138 >>5475131 Like the academia as a whole.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 15:23:47 2014 No.5475237 >>5473322 b/c it serves bourgeois interests.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 15:26:12 2014 No.5475249 politically what would Butler be btw? Is she a communist? are most post-structuralists communists or something else?

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 15:30:59 2014 No.5475268

>>5475249
Most post-structuralists are post-marxist.

They use of marxist critique techniques but aren't declared communists, though some of them - only one that comes to mind is Baudrillard - showed support for communist regimes.

Foucault, for example, is a liberalist - anarchist of some kind, but I don't think he ever takes a position. Most of the post-structuralists actually lived beyond communism's decline

Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 15:33:27 2014 No.5475275

>>5475237
As all leftism does, unless there's actually a revolution, in which case is ultimately serves the vanguard party or is crushed by a vanguard party. But a revolution in the West is about as likely as The Second Coming.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 15:42:51 2014 No.5475312

>>5473324

>http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/feminism-and-its-discontents_795395.html

that was a pretty darn good article

the feminists really did get what they asked for and its not what they wanted. it turns out women do not actually want the freedom to get drunk and fuck the first guy they find, as a man does to the first girl he finds while drunk

rape culture = feminist free-love culture

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 15:43:52 2014 No.5475318 >>5474193 ???? marxists clearly failed in a way that feminism has not yet clearly failed we are as capitalist as ever

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 15:47:45 2014 No.5475337 >>5475318 >marxists clearly failed The construction of a classless society failed, yes. The theory is as valid as it ever was (well minus the historical determination of the coming rule of the proletariat, if you will).

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 15:57:35 2014 No.5475365

>>5473324
>To look at the principles of feminism will help to understand the situation. Two of them are most relevant: that there is no essential difference between men and women, and the corollary that men and women are not real beings but arbitrary “social constructions” containing nothing “natural” or permanent.

Godamit...

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 16:49:21 2014 No.5475587 >>5473324 >THANKS OBAMA! I don't know what's worse: that feminists are dumb or that people who oppose feminism are dumb.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 16:56:21 2014 No.5475617
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>>5475587
Who is more tenacious? Feminists or the people who hate them?

It seems that anytime there is a discussion about feminism on the internet, MRAs will flock to it and post about "muh rights."

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 16:59:52 2014 No.5475638 >>5475318 The collapse of the USSR was not a failure of marxism but a successful assassination by capitalism. There is a difference.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:01:36 2014 No.5475647

>>5475617
>MRAs

Oh please. I see more people writing *about* MRAs than actual MRAs. In fact, I even see a lot of defensive anticipation of being accused of being an MRA. Stuff like "I'm not an MRA, but..."

I think it's time we drop the strawman. Barely anybody who criticizes feminism is a Men's Rights A___ (I don't even remember what the A stands for).

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:06:38 2014 No.5475667

>>5475268
>Foucault, for example, is a liberalist - anarchist of some kind, but I don't think he ever takes a position.
Closest thing for him to take an actual clear-cut political position was in Society must be defended, where he said, that social liberal democracy is the way of the future. I'm not sure what he meant with it. Mostly because he then procides to criticise it in his next two lectures: Security, Teritorry, Population and even moreso in Birth of Biopolitics.

And I don't think that third wave feminism was all that bad. I mean, I like both Foucault and Butler. I just have a feeling, that now modern feminists are trying to apply it to just about anything and it produces varying results...

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:09:53 2014 No.5475682 >>5475667 If he criticized it, he probably just meant that society seemed to be trending in that direction, whether or not he liked it, and he was right.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:11:02 2014 No.5475691 >I just have a feeling, that now modern feminists are trying to apply it to just about anything and it produces varying results... Give us two or three examples where modern feminists have applied it to lackluster results. I am genuinely curious.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:11:31 2014 No.5475696 Seems weird to give internet signboard tumblr culture the credit of having read much third wave feminism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:12:36 2014 No.5475701 >>5475667 >Foucault >third-wave feminist lolno

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:13:32 2014 No.5475707

I feel like Foucault is just super anti-politics and just wants everything to burn in a Bataille-esque manner. Or rather, every political discourse is bound to be captured so you might as well just map out immanent relations so anybody can pick it up for their tactics.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:13:48 2014 No.5475709 >>5475696 >Seems weird to give internet imageboard 4chan culture the credit of having read much third wave feminism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:14:07 2014 No.5475711 >>5475701 Well you could call History of Sexuality proto-third wave. I mean, Butler got inspiration for Gender Trouble from History of Sexuality.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:14:12 2014 No.5475712

How has it failed when it holds absolute cultural hegemony in academia?

>>5475249
They're all communists. Just look how they spent their whole lifes bashing western society as inherently fascist and oppressive while shit like this happened some kilometers east of Paris and no one cared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung

Not that they ever defended communism directly, but by undermining the moral legitimacy of liberal democracies at the same time that they never criticized communism, they prepared the terrain for the return of communism as a cultural hegemony among the intelligentsia after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Jean-François Revel's "Last Exit to Utopia" is a good account of that phenomenom.

>>	Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 17:14:57 2014 No.5475716 >>5475701 He was a proto-thirdwave feminist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:15:19 2014 No.5475718 >>5475647 activist by the way while I'm sympathetic of MRA (the least retarded ones at least) self identifying with a buzzword doesn't help their cause at all.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:15:39 2014 No.5475719

>>5475647
>Stuff like "I'm not an MRA, but..."
Stuff like "I'm not a racist, but..."

They may not think of themselves as MRAs but they are fighting against feminism because they are noxious little assholes. Not that the feminists they are fighting are much better.

I would say the internet has driven us into 4th wave feminism: a load of shrill slacktavists on both sides ranting about armies of straw people from the safety of their computer screen. They don't have a cause or the courage of their convictions or the backbone to act they simply rant against the other's ranting in a self supporting cycle.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:16:12 2014 No.5475721 I've actually heard people (especially on lit) who speak somewhat highly of Butler but denounce the tumblr feminists and social justice warriors, so I'm wondering if the popular ideology now is just a bastardization of what was once a respectable idea.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:18:31 2014 No.5475735 >>5475718 often advocates too

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:18:53 2014 No.5475737

>>5475719
>I would say the internet has driven us into 4th wave feminism: a load of shrill slacktavists on both sides ranting about armies of straw people from the safety of their computer screen. They don't have a cause or the courage of their convictions or the backbone to act they simply rant against the other's ranting in a self supporting cycle.

That's kind of what I see. It seems things are becoming reduced to #TeamSJW and #TeamMRA and nothing has much of a consequence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:19:18 2014 No.5475740 >no discussion of feminist theory Judith Butler and bell hooks aren't even part of the third wave movement, though they might approve of it, they're just not second wave members.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:20:24 2014 No.5475745 File: 726 KB, 500x499, FeministRobot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5473322 People know about logic and facts.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:20:27 2014 No.5475746 >>5475721 That's because >>5475696 Most of the internet shit isn't rooted in heavy readings of feminist literature.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:21:04 2014 No.5475749

>>5475721
I think it's bastardisation. But then again writers like Butler and Foucault, leave a lot to the interpretation of the reader. What I've gathered from both is that the closest thing in modern feminism to some of their ideas would be TERF. But again, maybe that's because of my interpretation of it...

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:22:05 2014 No.5475754 >>5475745 *tips fedora Tell me kindsir are you also a pround member of MRA movement?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:22:38 2014 No.5475758 >>5475749 >What I've gathered from both is that the closest thing in modern feminism to some of their ideas would be TERF How would the rejection of trans identity (ie the affirmation of a gender binary) fit with Foucault and Butler at all?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:22:48 2014 No.5475760 >>5474198 This is literally rape.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:23:54 2014 No.5475768 >>5475754 Nice le reddit meme, my good gentlesir.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:24:21 2014 No.5475770

They bring up some legit points, sometimes. But we're talking an already somewhat empowered group, so their discourse is inherently hysteric because they're allowed to.

I think there's more important issues than shitty identity politics. Fuck post-politics for the most part.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:24:31 2014 No.5475772 >>5475754 Posts like these are just as banal as the ones they're responding to. Unless you were doing it ironically, but that's also banal. So is using the word "banal." We're fucked.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:27:12 2014 No.5475785

>>5475758
Well again, that's my interpretation, and I'm pretty sure I'm reading into it.
But if gender is socially constructed (and it really is), then shouldn't we strive to completely eschew it?
Gender roles (again, my understanding of it) mostly come from social interpretation of sexuality, so in a society where sexuality is completely fluid, you wouldn't feel the need to change your body to fit in with your gender/sexuality role.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:27:31 2014 No.5475790 File: 108 KB, 553x369, cambodian killing fields.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5475337 >The theory is as valid as it ever was

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:27:32 2014 No.5475789 >>5475772 Dude that was pretty banal.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:28:37 2014 No.5475795 File: 103 KB, 600x450, gobekli.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5475337 The theory died earlier that the societies which sprang from it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:28:41 2014 No.5475796 >>5475785 So your position is more against identity than specifically against trans identity? That makes more sense, but it also doesn't seem to fit with what TERF is about.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:29:10 2014 No.5475800 >>5475770 >hysteric most of the empowered aren't even aware of their biases either

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:30:57 2014 No.5475808

>>5475796
Yeah. Well I'm not sure what TERF are really standing for. I heard the term and thought, shit that might be me. Because as said above, for me in a "perfect" world there would be no transgendered people. But yeah, then again neither would there be purely hetero- or homosexuals either.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:33:21 2014 No.5475819

>>5475800

I agree.
MRA is the most beta faggot phenomenon I've ever seen.

I cringed when I saw that Vice piece on it.

>muh divorces
>muh single issue movement

It's more than that, but they can only name this as a real key/core topic.
For the most part they're not married, nor will they ever be, and are mostly enraged about sex having become a scarce good.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:35:06 2014 No.5475827

>>5475638
>USSR
Who where fascists. Stalin was the death of communism in Russia, his mishmash ideology was just an attempt to hide that fact. There is no place for social Darwinism or ultra-nationalism in Marxism.

>>5475318
Read
>>5475337

>>5475617
Ignoring the small extremes of tumblr femenism vs MRA (or the extreme-right), In the real world feminists dominate. Most who are not 'feminists' are just lacking insight, they believe in equal rights but have their worldview from youtube or fb and thus equal feminism with Dworkins. They buckle quickly under pressure however, since they have no real arguments in this time to back liberal feminism or why they consider their country equal.

"Women just need to work harder" ect.

Ironically, in the west young women (20-30) earn more than men on average in big cities. More women than men get degrees, thus get better jobs and work harder as they have a need to prove themselves. Another factor is that most manpower in the city deals with service not heavy loads. Their challenge is instead rising in rank as high-earning jobs are commonly based on contacts and familiarity rather than skill, and the fallout from having a pregnancy.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:38:31 2014 No.5475843

>>5475819
>enraged about sex having become a scarce good.
I don't think it's even that. It's more translating the hatred of themselves to hatred of others.
"It's not my fault, that I'm a virgin. It's those whores who only fuck niggers and swagfags. I need to become a real alpha then I'll get more pussy than ever before." Type of shit...

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:38:53 2014 No.5475844

>>5475827
>Ironically, in the west young women (20-30) earn more than men on average in big cities. More women than men get degrees, thus get better jobs and work harder as they have a need to prove themselves.

Nah, men are just more likely to hire women because they want objects to stare at all day long at work. Anybody who's worked a career-level job knows women aren't working harder at shit.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:40:40 2014 No.5475850

>>5475819
>For the most part they're not married, nor will they ever be, and are mostly enraged about sex having become a scarce good.

Kind of like how you aren't alpha, yet you call others beta. Regardless of who/what MRA is, alimony is ridiculously skewed and even certain feminists realize this.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:40:56 2014 No.5475854
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>>5475827
Tumblr feminism is the logical outcome of liberal feminism once professional activists and gender studies professors realize that they have to become increasingly radicalized in order to keep being relevant in societies where men and females are more equal.

Pic related.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:41:12 2014 No.5475855

>>5475808
>TERF are really standing for
Then look it up ffs.

That said I agree with you, in an ideal world there be no segregated bathrooms or showers.

And everyone would be /fit/, be raised in collectives, and have robots do all menial work as we live in dome cities connected by super-rails. And every day we'd just spend our time reading poetry, do maths problems for fun and fuck like rabbits while high on soma.

Sight.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:41:23 2014 No.5475856 >>5475843 Have you been to /r9k/? There is so much angst about women fucking "chads."

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:41:59 2014 No.5475858 >>5475843 >It's not my fault, that I'm a virgin. It's those whores who only fuck niggers and swagfags. Talk about projection. Jesus Christ, anon.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:43:05 2014 No.5475867 >>5475855 >reading poetry and doing math >not making art You're a pleb.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:43:45 2014 No.5475871 >>5475850 Yeah, but alimony is one of the chief arguments that MRAs will make. They are largely unconcerned that women of almost any background will make less than their male counterpart, to say the least of any other issue that women face.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:43:52 2014 No.5475872 >>5475858 >Talk about projection. >thinks I'm projecting. Have you've been to /r9k/, /pol/ or even /v/. Or if you really want to feel sick to r/redpill? It's all posts like this.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:44:05 2014 No.5475873
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>>5475850

Dude, it's still a single issue movement.
And if you actively engage with the MRA, are a self-proclaimed MRA, you've pretty much put on the chastity belt.
I wanna see some MRA's pick up women with that resumé.

Also, check 'em.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:47:02 2014 No.5475886 >>5475855 >>5475867 Is this some kind of a "quasi" Brave New World reference?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:47:04 2014 No.5475887 >>5475719 I don't get why feminists assume that just because I don't support women's rights I automatically must support men's rights

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:47:55 2014 No.5475893 >>5475871 >They are largely unconcerned that women of almost any background will make less than their male counterpart That's because that's a myth: http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:49:09 2014 No.5475897

>>5475873
>And if you actively engage with the MRA, are a self-proclaimed MRA, you've pretty much put on the chastity belt.
>I wanna see some MRA's pick up women with that resumé.

What are you even talking about anymore? Who gives a shit about "MRAs"? This is turning into gossip.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:50:07 2014 No.5475901 File: 33 KB, 436x470, terf.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5475855 >Then look it up ffs. I did, I think this is as good of an definition as any?

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:50:40 2014 No.5475903

>>5475887
It's not just feminists who do that. People do it here, too. Except they'll call you an SJW. This is what I mean by all rhetoric on the internet about this shit being turned into #TeamMRA and #TeamSJW. It's childish bullshit that has nothing to do with anything.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:50:55 2014 No.5475907 >>5475887 If you aren't challenging a status quo, then that means that you are passively supporting it

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:51:41 2014 No.5475912 I hope this isn't you being honest.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:52:29 2014 No.5475916 >>5475907 But if we accept that MRAs are fighting against alimony bias, then they literally are fighting the status quo.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:52:34 2014 No.5475917

>>5475897

I brought up MRA's as an example of the majority being a biased bitch, you said they had some legit points and I shouldn't be calling them beta's.

Sorry, but I'd like to see any chick get hit on by a dude who identifies as an MRA: "Yeah on Friday's we meet up, the Men's Rights Activists, to talk about and fight the unjustice towards men by women."

Definitely gonna sound like a confident man and a potential protector and father of her children.

>b-but that's unjust! I have to conform to a certain gender role!

How cute, sounding like a feminist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:53:47 2014 No.5475923 >>5475916 Why does this need an ENTIRE movement though? Call it something that's centred around alimony then. MRA sounds like some pussywhipped bullshit.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:55:56 2014 No.5475932

>>5475917
>you said they had some legit points and I shouldn't be calling them beta's.

I implied that it's funny you're calling *anyone* beta when you aren't an alpha. I legitimately don't care about MRA, so I didn't say they had any legit points, I just brought up that alimony thing is a legit point regardless of your little caricature MRA strawman that allows you to participate in the conversation without saying anything meaningful.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:56:25 2014 No.5475935 >>5474166 >http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/feminism-and-its-discontents_795395.html get it? ughhhhhhhh

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:57:56 2014 No.5475940

>>5475854
No, it's the logical outcome of liberal feminism's failure to effectively deal with norms and the fact that several key elements of our capitalist and career-focused society panders to the standards of males.

>>5475844
>Anybody who's worked a career-level job knows women aren't working harder at shit.
Honestly, in general you are probably right as career jobs tend to already attract people with incentive. However, the on-average still applies at that young age as women get mid-management jobs easier and as stated before, service service service, which you admitted in a way.

With how women and men grow into in our society, this is not surprising. Men grow more adept at discipline and hands-on work, while women can more effectively manage relationships and communication.

>>5475886
Yeah, the difference of an Utopia and Dystopia can be frighteningly small at the surface. In my opinion, BNW was only due to the ideals behind it: dehumanization, normative behaviour and a general lack of meaning behind it's existence.

>>5475867
I have to much guilt over my lost potential in that field to mention it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:58:20 2014 No.5475942 >>5475932 I dare you to go try act like an MRA at a bar and see how non-beta you'll sound. We'll see how it'll still sound like a logical fallacy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 17:59:53 2014 No.5475949 >>5475907 Well personally I'm still unsure about the concept of universal human rights, so I can't support either team, and I also don't support political activism in general, I don't even vote.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:00:46 2014 No.5475950 >>5475942 Man don't you know? You should take the reddit red pill and tell women at the bar, that they're sluts and whores, who are lusting for their fathers and just want that dick. Totally works.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:00:52 2014 No.5475952 >>5475949 >I don't even vote. Please don't do this anon.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:01:50 2014 No.5475957 >>5475952 Not that I don't care, I just don't believe

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:02:49 2014 No.5475960 File: 18 KB, 500x373, behold my final form.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5475950 >mfw I did that >mfw I got laid hard PUA really works man.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:13:36 2014 No.5476002 >>5475940 >our capitalist and career-focused society panders to the standards of males. Yeah, because proletarian and working-class society do not panders to the standards of males at all.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:15:04 2014 No.5476011 >>5474166 Or perhaps the adjective is used to qualify the noun, as per usual, so as to clarify the realm of interest of the speaker, e.g. "social" justice as opposed to "environmental" justice.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:16:06 2014 No.5476019 >>5475275 Most boring trip.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:17:04 2014 No.5476023 >>5475957 Well I get that much.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:24:15 2014 No.5476050 >>5475716 bullshit. he didn't give a shit about women and didn't write about them once.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:26:41 2014 No.5476059 >>5474166 half right, half wrong, needs to into rawls

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:27:54 2014 No.5476070 >>5476050 >thinks that feminism is only about women. History of Sexuality deals with sexuality and it influenced third wave feminism, thus: proto third wave feminism.

>>	Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 18:30:04 2014 No.5476072 >>5476050 He did care about gender and identity, and his theories on them are the foundational doctrines of 3rd wave.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:31:53 2014 No.5476083 >>5475337 >The theory is as valid as it ever was So it's utterly stupid.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:37:17 2014 No.5476108 >>5475785 >But if gender is socially constructed (and it really is), then shouldn't we strive to completely eschew it? I'm gonna need reasons.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:39:53 2014 No.5476112 File: 572 KB, 501x486, laughingclarke.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5475819 >sex having become a scarce good >sex having become a scarce good >sex >a scarce good >now >scarcer than before >sex

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:42:40 2014 No.5476119

>>5476108
I guess freedom to preform any type of "gender-role" without actually identifying as that gender. Something like a false identity or something.
Pretty much it boils down to deconstruction of identity politics, and let people (as much as this sounds cheezy) be themselves.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:42:55 2014 No.5476123

>>5476112
You're right, it's more available now than ever before, but he may be referring to 'sex inequality', I read a study somewhere that I can't seem to find that said something along the lines of 'much of the sex is consolidated in the hands of few men'

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:43:56 2014 No.5476130

>>5476119
>Pretty much it boils down to deconstruction of identity politics, and let people (as much as this sounds cheezy) be themselves.

I agree with this, but why is it that feminists, instead of aiming for this, aim for hyper-factionalizing everyone into sub-sub-identities?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:44:32 2014 No.5476133 >>5476123 80/20 rule. 20 percent of men get 80 percent of the women.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:46:01 2014 No.5476138 >>5476130 If you break down identities enough, then you have one per person. Which means you pretty much destroyed identity in the sense Foucault talks about.

>>	Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 18:47:03 2014 No.5476141 >>5476123 So is money, what's the problem?

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:50:08 2014 No.5476159
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>>5476130
I think it has to do with post-modern capitalism, which works on identity production.
Identity production is peak of society of spectacle. It gives you the ability to make yourself a spectacle.

>>5476138
This is somewhat true, and it makes sense. But I'm not sure it's what's happening now. I mean every sub-sub identity now comes with both cultural and actual production. Identity has become the best way to sell things.

pic somewhat related.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:51:27 2014 No.5476166 >>5476159 >But I'm not sure it's what's happening now It's not. Identity politics literally strive to affirm identity. Black representation, female representation, white privilege, etc.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:52:06 2014 No.5476169

>>5475952
>>5476023
Not that anon but even if I force myself to vote I'm gradually starting to see that it's pointless. Retards will bitch and moan that every politician is the same and I get why this thought is dangerous, I really do, but people really don't appreciate how true that is.
It's not that there are no honest politicians, it's just that you don't get to a certain level without being dishonest, and even if by some miracle you did, you're not gonna solve anything without being dishonest.
It's also a source of discomfort for me that I would have to delegate to someone the power to do something I wouldn't trust myself to have.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:53:27 2014 No.5476177 >>5476133 What?

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:53:56 2014 No.5476181

>>5476159
Identity is the best way to sell things, that's the point. The fewer identities, the easier it is to market. If there a megaton of demographics, that means you get a loss less bang for each buck you invest in marketing.

http://mondediplo.com/1997/09/marcos

Postmodern capitalism (neoliberalism) works to consolidate identities, not to break them up. That's a major element of globalization. Just keep a few, manageable identities. Imagine if each department store had to have a section for each individual gender when there are over a hundred genders and people who aren't represented in the store get offended.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:57:16 2014 No.5476198

>>5476181
>Postmodern capitalism (neoliberalism) works to consolidate identities, not to break them up.

You need to take a business class, ASAP. The proliferation of idiosyncrasies is ideal for new opportunities to sell. You have new demographics opening up, constantly--most of them have expendable income, and they are begging to give it to you. All you have to do is orient your practices and products to their niche. Easy bucks.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:57:26 2014 No.5476199

>>5476119
What I'm trying to say is: why is it bad that something is socially constructed?
I get that it COULD be, I just don't understand why it's inherently bad.
>I guess freedom to preform any type of "gender-role" without actually identifying as that gender.
A good goal indeed but I'm not sure we need to smash da genda rolls to achieve that. When I was a kid I thought cooking was girlish because my mom used to cook and tv cartoons often said so. But then my mom got a job too and my dad started cooking every now and then and he was better than her and suddenly cooking wasn't girly anymore.

>>	Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 18:57:39 2014 No.5476201 >>5476177 He means 20% of men have had sex with four times as many women as 80% of men have, which isn't "fair". The top 20% doesn't have 80% of women as girlfriends.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 18:59:36 2014 No.5476205 >>5476198 You're thinking of secondary identities and fads. Not of permanent identities that exclude purchasing products marketed to other identities.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:02:43 2014 No.5476213 >>5476201 I know that's what he means. It's just wildly untrue. Or not even untrue, just "meaningless." How is "top" defined? Top income bracket? If so, does Jay-Z really have 400,000 girlfriends? Does that sound right?

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:03:26 2014 No.5476216

>>5476166
Yeah I have to agree.
Again, mostly because identity has become a commodity.

>>5476181
Yes and no. I mean, you can find stuff that is geared towards more and more specific group. I mean yeah, you make a point, but as this post >>5476198 said, isn't it better investment to sell a very specifgic product to a very specific group of people, when you know they'll buy it. Just saying yeah we get your special-snowflake identity and support you is enough to assure, the monetary support from that group.

>>5476205
Good thing you posted this I finished this post... I was just meaning to give an example how you can sell a meme-themed products to redditors and 9gagers...
But then again, it kind of applies to transgendered as well (if you're cynical enough). I mean there is entire "industry" that is supported by transgendered. If you want to change your "sex", that is make your self look like the other sex, you need to take hormonal pills, go through various plastic operations etc. Even if all of that is provided by the state, those companies get money from that...

>>	Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 19:04:02 2014 No.5476220 >>5476213 The "top" is defined by the men who have sex with the most women, retard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:04:42 2014 No.5476223 >>5476213 Dude don't try to rationalize anything about "alpha/beta" and all the stuff that revolves around that. remember that this shit was made up to troll /fit/ and became a widely spread meme because everyone on the internet is insecure.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:05:33 2014 No.5476224 >>5476220 Has ANYONE had 400,000 girlfriends?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:05:48 2014 No.5476227 >>5476216 Transgendered is one thing. Having to market a hundred different genders is something else. Legal and social recognition of myriad genders is where feminism is heading.

>>	Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 19:08:08 2014 No.5476235 >>5476224 I don't think so

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:10:01 2014 No.5476242

>>5476205

I'm not, actually. Take socio-economic "classes," as "permanent" and identity as I think you can achieve. An emerging trend in very large, heavily integrated corporations is the marketing of socially-tiered products. So you have an up-brand product like Tide next to some apparent off-brand knock-off that's three dollars cheaper, both produced by the same company in an attempt to capture two or three separate income demographics.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:10:03 2014 No.5476243

>>5476227
How many genders are there anyway?
I know of two, maybe three (if you count "ladyboys" and such as different gender, that is people who aren't transgendered, but are seen as a special gender, like ladyboys in Thailand).
I think it would be way easier to just legally and socially accept all sexes (I think there are four) and be done with it. And treat "genders" as identity.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:11:03 2014 No.5476246 >>5476235 Do you understand my point, now?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:11:53 2014 No.5476249 >>5476224 Wilt Chamberlain had 20,000.

>>	The cats Tue Sep 23 19:12:57 2014 No.5476253 >>5476243 >Solving the "issue" Stop oppressing me

>>	Omnisexual Tyrannosaurus !!33slhp0V42i Tue Sep 23 19:15:42 2014 No.5476256 >>5476246 No, I don't. the 20% of sex-having-men having had sex with 80% of women, does not indicate that any man has had sex with 400,000 women.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:17:25 2014 No.5476260

>>5476249

1/300,000,000 =/= .2

Also, that sounds like a lie. Let's say this feat was achieved over 40 years. That's 14,600 days, meaning Wilt would have to have a sexual relationship with a new women every .73 days. That's at least one novel sexual partner literally every day, and then some. For 40 years.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:19:31 2014 No.5476266
File: 54 KB, 450x450, tumblr_m065wi57241rpby42o1_r1_500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5476070

>something influences something tangentially
>it is proto-that thing

feminists often criticised foucualt for not dealing with women or women's sexuality specifically. they had to "reclaim" him after the fact and apply some of the techniques he developed to their own concerns.

>>5476072

>He did care about gender and identity

find me a single passage in ANY of his works where he gives a shit about either of these things. one of his main projects was an attempt to move away from such categories insofar as they represented a subject-based philosophy which he found extremely cumbersome.

also, there's an anecdote in his biography where he was chatting to some dude and he was like "but you're so intelligent, why do you insist on keeping company with women?"

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:21:29 2014 No.5476276 >>5476243 http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html Also there exist anti-medicalization trans activists just as there are anti-medicalization intersexed activists.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:24:41 2014 No.5476289 >>5474195 >Butler >good theorist Jump off a building.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:26:04 2014 No.5476302 >>5476276 Really interesting. Thanks for posting.

Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:29:04 2014 No.5476315
File: 72 KB, 345x538, skoptsy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5476276
>http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html
So pretty much what I said. I pointed out ladyboys, because I know the most about them.

>Also there exist anti-medicalization trans activists
Oh, didn't know about that. Well that's cool. I guess I fall into this cetegory. Well I also oppose assigning gender to intersex...

Also dem skoptsy be cray-cray. But seriously, this is both unimaginable to me and interesting in a strange way.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:37:25 2014 No.5476356 Is that pic from the classic a wyatt man "Niggers and jews, bad news" ? If so then go to paul.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 19:49:44 2014 No.5476441 >>5476315 >So pretty much what I said. >maybe three not really

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 23 20:06:24 2014 No.5476515 >>5475721 it hardly matters. People who try to "get it right" are batfucked crazy in the head too

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