best history books about the Middle ages? or interesting primary sauces?

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Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:25:31 2014 No.5383301 [DELETED]

best history books about the Middle ages? or interesting primary sauces?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:29:53 2014 No.5383317 >>5383301 You made this thread so you could post a picture of a soldier getting attacked by a giant snail.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:32:42 2014 No.5383327 >>5383317 that on its own makes this better than 90% of active threads on /lit/ anyway

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Wed Sep 3 21:36:10 2014 No.5383336 >>5383317 i protest against this anthropocentrism, it may be the snail getting attacked by the male human

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:40:12 2014 No.5383359 >>5383317 >>5383336 I reject this imposition of violence. The man and the snail could be about to become friends.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:40:40 2014 No.5383360 >>5383336 The snail is clearly attacking the knight's face shield. All the knight wants to do is play lacrosse. Giant snails are a menace and deserve to be exterminated.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:44:14 2014 No.5383373 File: 21 KB, 500x242, 10_14_2013_snails.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383360 >you will never be known as Snail-bane

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:45:25 2014 No.5383377 Is that a tree between them? Are they both giants? Or is that a bush? or is that just a tree far off in the distance so it looks smaller? or did the soldier get shrunk to snail size?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:47:37 2014 No.5383385 >>5383377 but if the soldier got shrunk to snail size and that's a tree then the tree is REALLY small!

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:49:51 2014 No.5383393 >>5383301 Runcimen's A History of the Crusades is pretty good.

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:50:26 2014 No.5383394

I'd really recommend you watch Yale's OCW course which goes from like Diocletian (late 3rd c.) to 1000~ or so, not sure why it stops there but still,. it's Yale. Can't go wrong. Pirate whatever books are on the syllabus and read those along with the course.

Also great are TTC's courses. Daileader has a trilogy for the Early, High, and Late Middle Ages which is fucking great though not perfect because the choices of what to cover - particularly for the High Middle Ages Course - can be a little spotty. Can't be helped though given the subject material. Then there's another great course with them called Renaissance, Reformation, and the Rise of Nations, I think with Andrew Fix, who is great. And that's good for the Late Middle Ages though it also segues further obviously. On top of that there are also Kenneth Harl's courses on the Vikings, Byzantium, and the Crusades, which are also vital, and he is simply an A+++ legend of an instructor.

For general texts, Bloch's Feudal Society is brilliant and a great starting place for a general understanding of the social history of the period. Pirenne's Economic and Social History of Medieval Europe is very short, and incredible, it might also be a great starting place. Runciman's History of the Crusades is a clunky fucker but it's a great narrative history if you feel like diving into a one of the most pivotal aspects of the period. Ostrogorsky's History of Byzantium is similar to Runciman. Hodgon's Venture of Islam is good for the Muslim world. I want to recommend more books or maybe some kind of mild syllabus but I'm drunk as shit and for some reason blanking.

>>5383385
You just blew my mind

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:50:39 2014 No.5383397 File: 226 KB, 680x390, snail joust.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383373 >thou wylt ne ryden a hors in jous ageynst a snayl

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:51:01 2014 No.5383399 I'd like to know why there are all those rockets flying around in the background.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:51:27 2014 No.5383400 >>5383397 He wants the D

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:51:59 2014 No.5383404 >>5383373 why does he wear the shell

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 21:54:10 2014 No.5383408 This whole thing is a hoot: http://sacred-texts.com/cla/proc/shp/index.htm#contents

dat ther snail jousting Wed Sep 3 22:08:00 2014 No.5383448

>There has been much scholarly debate about the significance of these depictions of snail combat. As early as 1850, the magnificently-named bibliophile the Comte de Bastard theorised that a particular marginal image of a snail was intended to represent the Resurrection, since he discovered it in two manuscripts close to miniatures of the Raising of Lazarus. In her famous survey of the subject, Lilian Randall proposed that the snail was a symbol of the Lombards, a group vilified in the early middle ages for treasonous behaviour, the sin of usury, and ‘non-chivalrous comportment in general.’ This interpretation accounts for why the snail is so frequently seen antagonising a knight in armour, but does not explain why the knight is often depicted on the losing end of this battle, or why this particular image became so popular in the margins of non-historical texts such as Psalters or Books of Hours.
>Other scholars have variously described the ‘knight v snail’ motif as a representation of the struggles of the poor against an oppressive aristocracy, a straightforward statement of the snail’s troublesome reputation as a garden pest, a commentary on social climbers, or even as a saucy symbol of female sexuality. It is possible that these images could have meant all these things and more at one time or another; it is important to remember, as Michael Camille, who devoted a number of pages to this subject, once wrote: ‘marginal imagery lacks the iconographic stability of a religious narrative or icon’. This motif was part of a rich visual tradition that we can understand only imperfectly today – not that this will stop us from trying!

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:08:53 2014 No.5383449

>>5383394
Oh just to add to this

If you get to the point of studying/reading about Charlemagne, OP, the extant biographies of him are quite short and interesting. Einhard's is the big one, and Penguin has an older pocket-ish edition that's like "Two Lives of Charlemagne" or something, it's nice, you could probably pirate it easily

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:08:59 2014 No.5383451 >>5383399 Someone is reading Gravity's Rainbow. It's me, actually

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:10:08 2014 No.5383453
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>>5383448
> the Comte de Bastard theorised that a particular marginal image of a snail was intended to represent the Resurrection,

>mfw it goes inside its shell and then comes back out

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:14:19 2014 No.5383468 >>5383453 but why would knights be fighting jesus? I think it makes more sense that it symbolizes something "slimy" and pest like, so like the lombards, heathens or even lust itself (since its kinda slimy)

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:19:21 2014 No.5383484 File: 44 KB, 429x500, malory[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383301 I've been hacking my through Thomas Malory's Le Morte D'Arthur

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:20:31 2014 No.5383493 File: 12 KB, 242x208, snail rider.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383468 or maybe sloth since snails are slow.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:21:38 2014 No.5383498 >>5383493 yeah yeah that makes sense, or maybe just sin in general?

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:22:31 2014 No.5383501 >>5383360 The Knight is clearly shield-bashing the snail's eye. All the snail wants to do is inspect the knight and say hello because snails are curious creatures. Humans are a plague and need to fuck right off. Regards, Giant medieval snail.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:22:56 2014 No.5383503 File: 114 KB, 569x802, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383404

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:23:32 2014 No.5383505 A Distant Mirror is pretty good

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:24:16 2014 No.5383508 >>5383501 >regards, giant metaphor for all sin and evil

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:26:19 2014 No.5383513

>>5383498
Sloth: snails are slow
Lust: snails are slimy
Gluttony: snails will eat your garden
Greed: snails HAVE to be hiding something in their shell, and they don't want you to have it!
Wrath: snails are so wrathful they eat your garden (it's like burning the village's crops)
Envy: snails really want a garden, but they can't have one so they'll eat yours.
Pride: Snails act like big shots with their cool shells.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:28:16 2014 No.5383522 >>5383501 Looks like we've been invaded by the GSIDF

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:29:56 2014 No.5383529 >>5383513 some of those are a stretch but yeah pretty much, I mean, unless its really just something like "fuck the lombards, they suck, like a lot, I'm just going to draw snails all over this manuscript and its lombards"

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:32:24 2014 No.5383535 best thread in a week

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:37:06 2014 No.5383557

I love how there's like all this scholarly work on marginalia

Like, these monks were bored and drew all this crap and they were probably just drunk and fucking around, and now there's people making a career on writing entire theses on this shit.

It's shit like this that makes me wonder what the scholarly work of the future is going to make of the media that survives from our time.

I mean, if the attrition of media from now into a thousand years into the future is as bad as the attrition of medieval texts and culture, then people will be analyzing Hollywood films and top pop tracks and getting all sorts of shit wrong. I would just love to read some of that shit, I bet i would be hilarious

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:41:28 2014 No.5383577 File: 62 KB, 480x360, ignorant.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383508 Ignorant

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:41:32 2014 No.5383580 >>5383448 >tfw illuminators were just bored as fuck and knew plebs wouldn't be reading the book anyway

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:46:46 2014 No.5383595

>>5383557
>It's shit like this that makes me wonder what the scholarly work of the future is going to make of the media that survives from our time.
Well
>Recent research conducted by the Vladimir Putin Memorial University of New St Petersburg, Illinois, has revealed that the "MLG" phenomena of 2007-2012 was a venerated form of art and social criticism
>Researchers made the break through upon stumbling upon a historical archive referred only to as "CODkid1998"
>Vladmirovich Slavovitch of the Vladimir Putin Memorial University announced last night the findings would be released, along with the vaunted decoded "Vagabonds archive"
>It is believed that these new insights into the early 21st century will enable researchers to grasp what life was like for the average man, or "pleb" as was the vernacular of the time

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:51:47 2014 No.5383607
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>>5383448
>This interpretation accounts for why the snail is so frequently seen antagonising a knight in armour, but does not explain why the knight is often depicted on the losing end of this battle, or why this particular image became so popular in the margins of non-historical texts such as Psalters or Books of Hours.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 22:54:47 2014 No.5383618 File: 2.30 MB, 278x166, abandon.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:06:34 2014 No.5383657

>>5383557
>It's shit like this that makes me wonder what the scholarly work of the future is going to make of the media that survives from our time.

if you think about it like this you can genuinely enjoy any tv show like "what the hell kind of society even thinks of this"

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:08:48 2014 No.5383663 >>5383453 dw that theory makes no sense

Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:15:23 2014 No.5383694

>>5383408
>XII. Proving That Justinian and Theodora Were Actually Fiends in Human Form
>And some of those who have been with Justinian at the palace late at night, men who were pure of spirit, have thought they saw a strange demoniac form taking his place. One man said that the Emperor suddenly rose from his throne and walked about, and indeed he was never wont to remain sitting for long, and immediately Justinian's head vanished, while the rest of his body seemed to ebb and flow; whereat the beholder stood aghast and fearful, wondering if his eyes were deceiving him. But presently he perceived the vanished head filling out and joining the body again as strangely as it had left it.
>Another said he stood beside the Emperor as he sat, and of a sudden the face changed into a shapeless mass of flesh, with neither eyebrows nor eyes in their proper places, nor any other distinguishing feature; and after a time the natural appearance of his countenance returned.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:17:38 2014 No.5383703 >>5383301 Thomas Madden The Concise History of the Crusades I am having a hoot reading this. The things those rascals got into is pretty funny. Also it is very readable, gives you a good overview and is pretty informative.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:18:12 2014 No.5383705 File: 61 KB, 599x424, breakdancing fox.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Medieval art is so silly but i love it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:24:40 2014 No.5383731 File: 663 KB, 1223x1063, Origen.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383705 hehehe I agree, and it is always so ugly compared to Greco-Roman art or Renaissance art.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:47:12 2014 No.5383813 File: 53 KB, 342x500, dndflailsnail[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Huh. I didn't know flail-snails were attested in medieval literature.

>>	Anonymous Wed Sep 3 23:55:56 2014 No.5383839 >>5383731 So the "nuns" are also obviously sinful, but what is their sin?

Anonymous Thu Sep 4 00:09:05 2014 No.5383898
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>>5383394

Thanks anon, I've been interested in history, specially middle ages, but didn't know where to start (STEM student) and I never thought about OCW.

Certainly I'll watch all the course and find the books during vacation. Your post is one of the best things I learned from this shitty place.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 00:09:17 2014 No.5383900 >>5383694 Holy shit he was a lovecraftian creature fro outer space

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 00:10:24 2014 No.5383906 >>5383694 Holy shit he was a lovecraftian creature from outer space

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 00:11:47 2014 No.5383912 >>5383301 >ctrl + F >no Froissart's Chronicles

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 04:57:44 2014 No.5384728 >>5383484 This book got me a wife

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 04:58:51 2014 No.5384733 >>5383505 Confirmed

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 05:01:58 2014 No.5384740 Inb4 montaillou Gg fags

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 05:03:22 2014 No.5384741 >>5383912 Froissart made it all up. He's the josephus of medieval studies.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 05:06:00 2014 No.5384747 File: 12 KB, 221x228, conan_slomatics.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] aw yiss

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 05:10:59 2014 No.5384756 >>5384728 Story time?

Anonymous Thu Sep 4 05:13:11 2014 No.5384761
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>>5383448
i prefer to think it's about laziness

>At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: 'I have to go to work — as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I'm going to do what I was born for — the things I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under the blankets and stay warm?'

>— But it's nicer in here ...

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 05:13:12 2014 No.5384762 File: 31 KB, 420x642, cruadesimage2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383394 >recommending Runciman's biased view on the Crusades that's responsible for the west's guilty feelings about it

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 05:21:45 2014 No.5384778 >>5383317 probably yes but that's fuckin' cool anyway

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 06:07:49 2014 No.5384857 >>5384756 Pro tip: find out what a girls fav book is and then read it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 06:09:38 2014 No.5384862 >>5384747 At last, giant snails and knights together. United in brotherly love. We must abandon this senseless blood feud between knights and giant snails.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 07:50:11 2014 No.5385094 >>5383404 He's a slimy guy

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 08:30:53 2014 No.5385195 File: 65 KB, 600x524, Black bat, Luttrell Psalter, England ca. 1325-1340.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] whaddup

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 08:35:08 2014 No.5385210 >>5383731 >tfw cutting your balls just because i really have to get into medieval art, seems like they were just like us

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 10:22:11 2014 No.5385494 >>5383359 He's swinging the club of friendship

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 10:22:38 2014 No.5385498 File: 2.32 MB, 1508x1171, LamGods.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383731 >medieval art >so ugly compared to Greco-Roman art And you base this on a couple of humorous illuminations drawn by bored monks?

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 10:28:03 2014 No.5385515 >>5385498 That disproportionate Eve

Anonymous Thu Sep 4 11:04:38 2014 No.5385620

Inheritance of Rome by Chris Wickham is probably the most thoroughly researched book I attempted to read on early Middle-Ages. It's not for beginners at all; you must be quite familiar with late antiquity and know the major reasons for the Empire's collapse. You must be familiar with the barbaric societies that were growing up and around the Empire, and must have basic understanding of Christianity in the West and East as well as Judaism and Islam.

In the very beginning of the book, Wickham discards the idea of teleology in history and does his best to talk of history without any regard for teleological progress, as his belief is that most other history books, especially written about a certain nation BY that nation, will strongly rely on teleological patterns to formulate patriotic fervor as if "it was meant to be".

Otherwise, unless you're familiar with the more subtle technicalities of the times, the book will be just a jumble of incomprehensible names and places, economical theoretical structures, intertwined political ploys and cultural and religious mash-ups that will mean fuck-all if you are not already intermediate in the subject.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 14:54:58 2014 No.5386408 Could anyone recommend a good resource on Medieval Spain?

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 17:53:08 2014 No.5387091 >>5386408 >>5386408 Roger Collins

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 18:01:55 2014 No.5387136 > some copyist monk gets bored, draws a snail fighting a dude. > some other monks lol at this and start doing the same > soon monks all over monastic europe are drawing snailfights in their manuscripts > yfw snail combat is the world's first meme

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 18:54:31 2014 No.5387401 >>5384741 >He's the josephus of medieval studies. What did Josephus make up?

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 18:59:58 2014 No.5387435 File: 22 KB, 500x667, 1288668971155.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5387136 I am ok with this.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:03:33 2014 No.5387448 File: 84 KB, 696x288, ayy lmao w.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:21:39 2014 No.5387523 File: 899 KB, 1024x856, pervert monks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >there are still people who think the Middle Ages were a bleak time were no fun was allowed.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:25:39 2014 No.5387536 File: 50 KB, 633x338, bored monks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:29:28 2014 No.5387551 >>5387536 >>5387523 This shit is hilarious. I'd really like to know the context of these though, I assume its more than just for giggles.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:34:36 2014 No.5387571 >>5387551 Not really, a lot of that stuff was honestly just bored doodling

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:36:35 2014 No.5387576 File: 115 KB, 960x561, bored_monk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5387551 Fun things are fun. >there will never be an anime about cute monks doing cute things.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:37:41 2014 No.5387579 File: 465 KB, 999x1500, cuckoldfag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5387576 Speaking of anime. Medieval NTR.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:41:13 2014 No.5387597 >>5387576 The closest to that is Marimite, about pure waifus attending a catholic school.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:46:00 2014 No.5387624 >>5385094 for you

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 19:48:30 2014 No.5387631 File: 59 KB, 600x1069, Feudal Society.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:00:01 2014 No.5387663 Pls post more wacky medieval snail fighting or dicks

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:05:31 2014 No.5387686 File: 122 KB, 636x896, 194x7qld5ir83jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5387663 Dumping Silly Illuminations this one is from a Historiae Alexandri Magni from Bruges from the 1470s

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:12:14 2014 No.5387711 >>5383397 I feel bad for the snail in this one. He's just chilling out on top of that plant with his nigga the bird, not realizing he's about to get BTFO by a knight in full battle armor

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:13:16 2014 No.5387713 >>5387686 ahahaha this one the king just got alpha cuck'd by that dragon

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:16:16 2014 No.5387721 File: 72 KB, 800x338, 6a00d8341c464853ef019aff95a55b970c-800wi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] this one showing a knight and a snail with King Eadwig inset is from a roll of English kings c.13th century

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:19:44 2014 No.5387730 tips theodora

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:19:55 2014 No.5387731 File: 93 KB, 720x516, Evil Escargot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >not posting the Evil Escargot

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:28:40 2014 No.5387757 After being on 4chan for five or so years, I've never been to this board. I'm now seriously wondering why.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:30:14 2014 No.5387764 File: 168 KB, 600x800, 1390689359655.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] babies were /fit/ as fuck in the middle ages

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:35:11 2014 No.5387781 >>5387686 lol

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 20:49:55 2014 No.5387850 >>5387711 Nah dude it's okay. The Knight always loses the engagement with the snail.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 21:10:06 2014 No.5387926 File: 86 KB, 636x579, 194xjfmkk8f59jpg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Le_Sad_Cat.Vellum

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 21:16:38 2014 No.5387957 >>5387926 >thou shalt never possess a wife and dowry

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 21:46:33 2014 No.5388083 >>5387721 What's the knight doing with his right hand? Looks like he's powering up to fire some sort of energy blast.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 21:47:53 2014 No.5388087 >>5388083 13th century falcon punch

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 21:50:52 2014 No.5388093 >>5388083 >>5388087 >not recognising the prince-regent of all saiyans in his final battle with lord slug

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 21:56:35 2014 No.5388112 >>5387764 >for what purpose

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:00:52 2014 No.5388131 File: 480 KB, 251x198, 1348479745017.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5388093 10/10

Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:14:13 2014 No.5388188

>>5388112
It is pretty obvious what's going on.

>>5387764
Some wizard has produced a legion of superbabies each with the strength of ten average babies and a surprisingly blase attitude towards their own deaths. The knights must destroy the abominations.
For some reason, the knight on the far left shares the baby's complete lack of surprise at this situation. Probably after years of watching your comrades in arms get their asses beat by snails, you just quit caring.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:19:02 2014 No.5388216 >>5387686 Do you know what the illumination is portraying? How does it relate to Alexander?

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:19:47 2014 No.5388220 >>5383448 There's also the theory about the snails representing the inevitability of death, from that one Psalms quote with snails in it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:20:15 2014 No.5388227 >>5388188 >It is pretty obvious what's going on. I know, it just looks like the child being held is asking that.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:20:49 2014 No.5388232 >>5384857 >implying I'm going to read John Greene Story Time

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:25:52 2014 No.5388248 >>5385498 Damn that even looks like it's post-Renaissance, or even post-Baroque.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:31:35 2014 No.5388271 >>5388248 it's more renaissance than it is medieval. better verisimilitude in northern art compared to italian

Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:35:13 2014 No.5388286

>>5388271
I thought it was the opposite (in regards to eras), with northern renaissance art having more medieval traits than their Italian cousins, not the other way around.
The reason why I said post-renaissance was because of the middle painting which takes place in an open field, where the scene obviously extends past the painting's boundaries, even baroque art didn't extend that much.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:57:08 2014 No.5388367 File: 358 KB, 881x955, why are you doing that bro.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5388188 >blase attitude towards their own deaths This is a general characteristic of medieval art.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 22:58:14 2014 No.5388371 File: 136 KB, 250x250, chill out bro it's just a sword in your head.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5388367

>>	kitty !kitty/EnNg Thu Sep 4 22:58:58 2014 No.5388374 >>5388367 it reminds me that 'the crime and the punishment' book cover

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 23:01:30 2014 No.5388381 File: 177 KB, 877x664, bitches and falcons.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5387957 What is the best thing in life, they asked the Count? He said: "A maiden in your arms, and a falcon on your lap". Or was it the other way around?

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 23:04:12 2014 No.5388390 File: 62 KB, 403x452, EthiopianMadonna.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5383694 I'm not saying its aliens but...

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 23:23:32 2014 No.5388487 >>5387091 Looks promising, thanks.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 23:32:28 2014 No.5388529 File: 495 KB, 895x1556, bamberg rider.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5385498 Isn't that technically early renaissance? Why didn't medieval painters attempt the same kind of naturalism sculpturs were achieving. Until, I guess, Giotto.

Anonymous Thu Sep 4 23:37:12 2014 No.5388554

>>5388529
Before renaissance perspective wasn't a thing. If you could sort of do it by heart you had great work, but otherwise it all looked weird. Eventually they started teaching the calculations to repeat on paper what they saw on real life and things got better for everyone.

>>	Anonymous Thu Sep 4 23:51:49 2014 No.5388604 >>5388529 Sculpture is inherently three dimensional. Painting isn't.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 00:10:21 2014 No.5388652

>>5383301
>Christianity
>Europe starts getting butchered by priests and holy warriors or they said they believing in Jahoody crosstree pinned zombie jew
>lots and lots and lots and lots of poor 'servants' (slaves but don't tell Christians that)
>over exaggerated knight hood
>over exaggerated castles
>plagues
>literally the most useless, destructive, and god awful time period of mankind for Europe

that's basically it

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 00:15:59 2014 No.5388668 File: 98 KB, 960x540, 768584485.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] If you're ever in Washington DC, you should come to The National Gallery of Art. There's a lot of great Medieval art there.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 00:25:54 2014 No.5388699 Best thread on 4chan in months. Well done.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 00:26:39 2014 No.5388701 >>5388668 there's great art there, period also in all the other museums and galleries in DC and Baltimore

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 04:13:55 2014 No.5389366 >>5388652 tips fedora

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 04:34:28 2014 No.5389399 File: 83 KB, 840x623, I am getting to Chivalrous f'r this shite.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >God Be Damned

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 04:57:38 2014 No.5389444 >>5388390 2spooky4me

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 05:07:58 2014 No.5389468

>>5388604
>sculpture is inherently three dimensional
Technically, but medieval sculpture progressed from more primitive and less three-dimensional (bas relief / Romanesque), to often more detailed and fully three-dimensional (Gothic). Painting styles seem to have lagged behind.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 05:08:08 2014 No.5389469 >>5389399 That knight looks bored

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 05:23:21 2014 No.5389493 >>5389469 courtly sprezzatura

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:16:06 2014 No.5389565 File: 115 KB, 813x542, killer rabbit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >yfw there was historical basis for the Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog in Monty Python.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:17:49 2014 No.5389568 File: 59 KB, 402x610, lewd monk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5387523 >>5387536 Why were monks so lewd?

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:20:36 2014 No.5389578

>>5388271
>it's more renaissance than it is medievaL
>>5388529
>Isn't that technically early renaissance?

By all definitions, the renaissance only reached across the Alps at the end of the 15th century.

This Flemish "Ghent Altarpiece" is from the early 15th century, and is the result of an independent medieval art evolution in the low countries.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:27:59 2014 No.5389606 semi-related: I heard that geometrical perspective became popular during the renaissance because it's expressive of rationality and realism, unlike OP's pic for instance. Can anyone comment on that?

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:34:15 2014 No.5389627
File: 97 KB, 678x515, boredmonks.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5389606
I don't know, but the notion that Renaissance was specially fond of "rationalism", specially when compared to the "irrationality" of the Middle Ages, is pretty much a myth.

The Middle Ages had rationalists like Roger Bacon, Roger Grosseteste, William of Ockham, while the typical philosopher of the Renaissance were mystic hacks like Marsilio Ficino, Pico della Mirandola or Paracelsus (important in their own way, nonetheless).

Monks just wanted to have fun.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:34:41 2014 No.5389630
File: 77 KB, 500x622, hockney book.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5389606
yeah, italian richfags began to buy and translate all kind of ancient literature like vitruvius' architecture book, which talked about geometry, golden ratio and all that pythagorean stuff. also arabic literature about optics and projections. accompanied by improvements in lense- and mirror-making.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:36:47 2014 No.5389641 >>5389627 >I don't know, but the notion that Renaissance was specially fond of "rationalism", specially when compared to the "irrationality" of the Middle Ages, is pretty much a myth Funny, they taught me just that in school.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:42:29 2014 No.5389655

>>5389578
As I understand it, Italian painting brought more naturalism to Gothic styles, eventually inspiring the International gothic movement which spread through Europe, influencing the Early Netherlandish painters. Isn't this all just part of the "renaissance" in art that began in late 13th century Italy? Even if there was an early divergence between Northern European and Italian styles.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:45:26 2014 No.5389660
File: 2.32 MB, 1386x4653, dark_ages_myth.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5389641
It's hard to get rid of XIXth centuries anti-clerical myths about the Middle Ages.

http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html

Fun fact, late Medieval scholars were already reaching the same conclusions about inertia and impetus that would drive the discoveries of Galileo and Newton 300 years later and unleash the Scientific Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Calculators

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Oresme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Buridan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_di_Casali

Then came the Renaissance with it's obsession with the Greeks and stopped that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:49:06 2014 No.5389664 >>5389660 I guess they started with the Greeks

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 06:57:59 2014 No.5389682

>>5389655
>As I understand it, Italian painting brought more naturalism to Gothic styles
That's exactly what the Flemish/Dutch artists were doing at the time, independently from Italian renaissance humanism.

In fact, the Flemish painters had a massive influence on Italian renaissance painting with the introduction to Italian painters of Flemish oil painting techniques in the mid-15th century.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 07:08:36 2014 No.5389711

>>5389682
I'm talking about before the Flemish, in the late 13th / 14th century with Giotto, Altichiero, Simone Martini, etc.. I guess "proto-Renaissance"? I thought that these innovated more reaslitic styles which gradually influenced other developments in Europe.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 07:16:42 2014 No.5389738 >>5389660 my entire fucking view on the Renaissance just got rekt. Guess 4chan can be good for something after all. So where did this fedoraesque misconception come from, what ends does it serve?

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 07:31:52 2014 No.5389772

>>5389711
No development was ever isolated of course.
But many of the naturalistic developments likely occurred side-by-side rather than as the result of one another, like foreshortening.
The fact remains that the Flemish painting style took a major leap, ahead of renaissance humanism, and ahead even of Italian renaissance painting.
Flemish painters like van der Goes blew the Italians' minds with their realism.

Even after 1500 when Italian renaissance elements became more apparent in the low countries, Flemish painting styles still remained more Gothic (thus more "Medieval").

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 07:33:58 2014 No.5389783
File: 83 KB, 1024x620, SkillTreeHelp2_zps409b4630.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5389738
not the other expert guy, but teleological explanations of history are always very attractive, so long story short people like to take a lineal advance of science and Civilization skill trees too seriously when scientific advance is usually more complicated and many factors influence it

Also people like conflict narratives, like "reason" against "faith" always sound "logical" even if they have no base whatsoever

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 07:40:22 2014 No.5389813

>>5389738
There's been a big push against Western culture in the past few centuries, particularly targeting the Middle Ages (aka 3dark5u ages).
This had to do with the socialist struggle against the clerical powers.
In short: anything to do with Christianity in European history (e.g. crusades, overly religious medieval society, ...) was bad and you should feel bad.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 08:00:45 2014 No.5389873 File: 67 KB, 600x492, Snailcat, ‘The Maastricht Hours’, Liège 14th century.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5387731 u dun goofd good stream for this kind of shit: discardingimages.tumblr.com

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 08:10:39 2014 No.5389903

>>5389813
as a rule every new establishment delimits itself against the preciding era with extra-aggressive rhetoric. and too much of it was taken at face value by later historians. it wasnt all intentional propaganda. also 19th century saw a renewed interest in middle ages. german romanticism was pretty much a middle ages revival movement.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 08:15:21 2014 No.5389911

>>5389660
>Far from being a stagnant dark age, as the first half of the Medieval Period (500-1000 AD) certainly was...

As much as I think this article's message should be spread, paradoxically, the above sentence falls foul of the very notion O'Neill is trying to establish - i.e. of ridding oneself of pseudo-historical notions about the past. Simply designating the Early Middle Ages (the Dark Ages having been jettisoned by academia) as a stagnant period denigrates the vast amount of scholarship and historical revision of the past 50 years. Granted, O'Neill is talking about scientific advancement, and there is probably a case of asserting that there was more during a later period. But talking about the narrative of history as a discrete or objective progress of certain values is a trap; determinism and, as another anon said, teleological interpretations of history are inherently ahistorical.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 09:40:08 2014 No.5390086

>>5389903
There are always countermovements and such, and indeed romanticism was a direct reaction to the excessive objectivity and rationalization of the enlightenment.
But overall, mainland Europe saw a great deal of anti-medieval propaganda. Especially once socialism gained hold of politics.
This propaganda was mainly centered around how bad religious influence was.

That's why people in Europe are told all about the "dark ages", and how bad the crusades were.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 10:48:12 2014 No.5390224 >>5389738 He's right on the science and technology part but for art the Renaissance was superior.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 11:30:47 2014 No.5390345 >>5383359 Objection: The man is clearly represented as a military figure and the arc of his body and his raised arm suggest he is about to swing his weapon in a fashion as to hurt the snail.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 12:11:11 2014 No.5390500
File: 434 KB, 1920x1080, at first i was like but then.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5389630
btw there's a new docu "tim's vermeer" (produced by le trashman.jpg) where they explore this theory a bit more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim%27s_Vermeer

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 14:07:52 2014 No.5390865 >>5390500 Goddamn. Going from the one on the left to the one on the right. Even roman frescoes looked "better" than the former.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 17:41:40 2014 No.5391557
File: 202 KB, 1000x1080, IsitVermeerOrANazi.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5390500
I love Vermeer so much and have seen like 6 of his paintings IRL (impressive number!). I am afraid if I watch that documentary it will, like, 'lose the magic' and all of that.

I even like Han van Meegeren fake Vermeer's they look really good! Did you know his son made forgeries of his father's forgeries of Vermmer? Yo dawg...

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 17:46:35 2014 No.5391573

>>5390500
I saw some parts of the documentary and they complety missed the point of the paintings. Yeah, you can basically copy reality with time and resources, before the camera obscura they arranged people in real life and copied them and we still can do both of those things plu photography. If the works carry significance and meaning through time it's because they are good, not because it was harder or easier to make them.

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 17:50:43 2014 No.5391594

>>5391573
Also:
The natural progress towards impressionism and expresionism comes from the artists personal interpretation of reality. You can't complain that classical painters just mimicked reality and also complain that modern painting is shit, maybe you just don't like painting and that's just fine.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 21:04:00 2014 No.5392649 >>5383301 You might want to bookmark the Mediaeval sourcebook at Fordham: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.asp

Anonymous Fri Sep 5 21:47:17 2014 No.5392860
File: 766 KB, 1559x2100, 1396724472216.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>ctrl+f "tyranny of a construct"
>0 results
Read Brown's "Tyranny of a Construct". It's available free online if you google it. It's an essay that shows that feudalism never actually existed as it's popularly thought of. Also read Reynold's "Fiefs and Vassals" which shows that Feudalism was more of an in academic concept being explored by intellectuals in the medieval ages than an actual societal model in use at the time.

>>5389627
>>5389641
>>5389641
>>5389660
Also, these. The medieval ages had more advancement and progress than the Renaissance. I was about to post the link to Franklin's "The Renaissance Myth" but it was already posted, A+ work.

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 21:52:36 2014 No.5392883 >>5383393 Are there shails?

>>	Anonymous Fri Sep 5 21:56:23 2014 No.5392908 File: 22 KB, 300x240, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Fire and Sword was pretty good

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 00:09:30 2014 No.5393319 >>5389813 >This had to do with the socialist struggle against the clerical powers. wut

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 00:13:06 2014 No.5393329 >>5390086 >Especially once socialism gained hold of politics. speaking of vague generalizations about history...

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 00:19:05 2014 No.5393344 >>5392860 >The medieval ages had more advancement and progress than the Renaissance. In what sense? That seems like a very vague claim.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 00:39:31 2014 No.5393437

>>5389738
How is your view on the Renaissance different after reading that? I thought it was the reputation of the middle ages that that post was attempting to recover.

Anyway, it kind of worries me that someone took the time to make that pic; I was always under the impression that the middle age myths were only held by some, typically 'internet anti-faith atheists'. Hardly a significant lot to warrant such thorough and sometimes aggressive reaction. I mean is this O'Neill really complaining about the nonsense kids on the internet say?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 01:06:53 2014 No.5393546 File: 922 KB, 1280x1293, Justinianbitchface.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Byzantine art is best art. Specially late byzantine period, 12th to 14th.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 01:50:36 2014 No.5393650 >>5389660 Wow, this guy got trolled by that 'dark age' info graph big time. lol how do you even represent scientific advancement on a chart?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 01:56:59 2014 No.5393670 >>5393546 top pleb

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 02:01:17 2014 No.5393684 >>5393344 >In what sense? In the sense of technical innovation, devices and techniques and technological gadgets, I guess. The renaissance had some interesting artistic developments, but not much on the technological front.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 03:47:47 2014 No.5393900
File: 318 KB, 801x1058, goghmrtrabuc.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5393546
and van gogh picked up where it had been left (after everybody went photorealism-mode)
>tfw renaissance and industrialization left a hole in artistic progress, the dark ages

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 05:23:30 2014 No.5394106 >>5393437 those believes hardly come from the internet, they permeated pop culture a long time before that. I mean you just have to have to watch the original Cosmos or almost any documentary about science that mentions the medieval """dark""" ages

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 05:25:28 2014 No.5394113 File: 44 KB, 500x539, timeline_chartism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5393650 well then you need to see the new /pol/ version of the chart. enjoy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 05:29:04 2014 No.5394121 >>5394113 why may 2009? just the date of the shoop?

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 05:32:11 2014 No.5394127

>>5393319
>>5393329
I'm talking in a general sense, but it's very true.

There was a great power struggle between the established clergy and upcoming socialism. And once the latter gained more power, they did everything they could to undermine the former, including in education.

Which is why we are taught about the grimdark ages, and how the crusades were the most evil events in history.

This anti-Christian indoctrination is a very recent thing too, the middle ages and the crusades were still regarded as positive things in Europe some hundred years ago.
Indeed, when Sir Edmund Allenby conquered Jerusalem from the Ottomans in 1917, he proclaimed "the works of the crusaders are now complete".

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 05:44:22 2014 No.5394139 >>5394121 no idea, i can't penetrate the intellect of the superior minds that create this kind of images

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 09:35:03 2014 No.5394601 >>5388093 I can't get over how good this post is.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 11:32:43 2014 No.5394972 >>5393670 >>5393670 >i dont know anything about the Roman Empire after 475

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 11:39:02 2014 No.5394995 >>5391557 It's pretty good, even with Penn and Teller at the helm, and it's convincing. It doesn't the the 'magic' out though.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 11:52:22 2014 No.5395039

>>5389813
It's kind of ridiculous to blame socialism for besmirching the Middle Ages when it was the Italian Renaissance that invented the myths about them and handed them down to the present in the first place.

Besides, the anti-clericalism of socialism wasn't/isn't hinged in the Middle Ages but in contemporary society, the real social corruptions and crimes committed or permitted by the Church. Critics simply revived the Renaissance criticisms for its own purpose and to show how far back the clergy's corruption goes (and let's not pretend that the Church of the Middle Ages wasn't as much a center or power and greed as it was a patron of arts and sciences: both can be and are true).

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 13:48:18 2014 No.5395487
File: 956 KB, 1924x884, Fusillades_de_Nantes.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5389813
>socialist struggle against the clerical powers

Not really. The ones who struggled with clerical powers were liberals, not socialists. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_School_War

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 13:48:59 2014 No.5395492 >>5394121 According to Google, X-Men Origins: Wolverine was released in May 2009. Are Muslims responsible for the plague of shitty comic book movies washing over the United States?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 13:52:23 2014 No.5395508 AP Euro History? I'm trying to find some primary sources as well. >gtfo underage I'm an 18-year-old senior.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 14:24:13 2014 No.5395648

>>5395039
>It's kind of ridiculous to blame socialism for besmirching the Middle Ages when it was the Italian Renaissance that invented the myths about them and handed them down to the present in the first place.
Didn't I just give you the example of Edmund Allenby?
The crusades were not seen as negatively in his day, as evidenced by the fact that he considered his victory to be the conclusion of the crusades.

Of course there have always been detractors of the European middle ages, but I'm talking about a very recent evolution of propaganda that came along with the rise of Marxism/socialism.

>>5395487
Of course there have always been detractors of the European middle ages, but I'm talking about a very recent evolution of propaganda that came along with the rise of Marxism/socialism.

By the way, the liberal party was a progressive, anti-conservative party much like the socialist party.
And the second school war did in fact involve socialists.
I know because my grandfather was in the thick of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 14:51:47 2014 No.5395777 Any good books on Medieval art?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 14:56:00 2014 No.5395799 >>5395508 Fuck off you high-school shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 14:57:13 2014 No.5395805 The reason it's called the dark ages is because scholars have been masturbating to the greeks and roman too much.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 14:57:38 2014 No.5395808 File: 56 KB, 500x291, gs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5395777 Here's a good book on medieval f art

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:10:50 2014 No.5395862

>>5384762
Runciman tries his best to steer opinion, but that's what makes it so easy to spot. He still at least maintains integrity in presenting the facts and beyond his "but that really wasn't so bad because x" BS he tells a riveting account. I'd recommend reading Runciman with a warning of his obvious bias followed by Madden for the counterargument.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:20:00 2014 No.5395898

>>5395648
>Didn't I just give you the example of Edmund Allenby?
Honestly don't give a fuck what some aristocrat cunt thinks, but that's besides the point: it has nothing to do with what you quoted. Even if we accept that socialists sold a poor view of the Middle Ages by way of anti-clericalism (which is simplistic to the point of falsity, since socialists attacked other positions of power besides the clergy, namely /monarchs/), the "recent evolution of propaganda" doesn't begin with Marxists nor pre-Marx socialists.

>By the way, the liberal party was a progressive, anti-conservative party much like the socialist party.
Not all progressives are socialists

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:26:21 2014 No.5395935

>>5395898
>Honestly don't give a fuck what some aristocrat cunt thinks
Do you know who Allenby was?

>it has nothing to do with what you quoted
But it does, it shows the mindset at the time.
It shows that the crusades were not seen as the heinous war crimes they are said to be today.

>which is simplistic to the point of falsity, since socialists attacked other positions of power besides the clergy
So because socialists attacked more than just the clergy, they did not attack the clergy?
Interesting logic there.

>the "recent evolution of propaganda" doesn't begin with Marxists nor pre-Marx socialists
There was always anti-medieval propaganda, but only recently has the anti-medieval propaganda drowned out the more positive views of the middle ages.

>Not all progressives are socialists
That's pretty much what I just said, yes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:27:53 2014 No.5395943 >>5388367 Whats with that anyway? had they not discovered facial expression?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:30:04 2014 No.5395954 >>5395943 They just didn't give a fuck back then

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:38:10 2014 No.5395996 >>5395935 >It shows that the crusades were not seen as the heinous war crimes they are said to be today. Why is that surprising when Euros basically didn't view non-Europeans as human beings from the Renaissance well into the 1900s?

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:38:41 2014 No.5395999

>>5395943
Back then, artists would keep depictions devoid of human expressions and other lifelike characteristics because they felt that they were depicting sacred beings that were not bound by laws of nature or human emotions.

Not sure why this would extend to ordinary humans, but I suspect that it has something to do with the above.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:39:37 2014 No.5396003 >>5387536 Is this from the Malleus Maleficarum? I remember there being something about witches stealing penises and putting them in birds nests or something.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:40:32 2014 No.5396004 >>5395996 It isn't especially since their only interactions with them were invasions, pillaging, slavers, etc.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:41:00 2014 No.5396008

>>5395996
>Euros basically didn't view non-Europeans as human beings
Not sure that's true.

Saladin for instance was held in the highest regard as someone who was up there with some of the greatest European rulers in matters of chivalric ideals and warfare strategy.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:47:14 2014 No.5396037

>>5395996
>>5396008
yeah that makes no sense. i've read plenty of old spanish literature and they sometimes depict arabs as people praying for the wrong god, but never as inhuman, there are plenty of stories about compasionate arab "kings", pious arab women converting to christianity and shit like that.

i've read far more bitter literature from romantic spanish authors, with stories of jews stealing kids and performing satanic rituals and shit like that

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:47:53 2014 No.5396043

>>5395935
>Do you know who Allenby was?
"Field Marshal Edmund Henry Hynman Allenby, 1st Viscount Allenby GCB, GCMG, GCVO (23 April 1861 – 14 May 1936) was an English soldier and British Imperial Governor."

>It shows that the crusades were not seen as the heinous war crimes they are said to be today.
A general getting giddy at the idea that he's a crusader doesn't mean everyone cared about the crusades as some ideological ground to stand on, nor does it mean socialists managed to convince everyone only in recent time to stop celebrating the crusades and feel guilty about them. Not that they should anyway.

>So because socialists attacked more than just the clergy, they did not attack the clergy?
I literally said the exact opposite in the exact fragment you quoted. This is just disingenuous.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:53:36 2014 No.5396073

>>5396004
>It isn't especially since their only interactions with them were invasions, pillaging, slavers, etc.
Their only direct interactions, anyway. Eastern scholarship and technology was of course monumentally important to Western intellectual and social development.

>>5396008
Saladin is one of those exceptional Other characters that gets romanticized. The fact the Richard officially admired his character and this fact didn't die out gives him a free pass the rest of the world's Muslims, Africans, etc., never did.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:53:45 2014 No.5396074

>>5396043
>1st Viscount Allenby GCB, GCMG, GCVO
Then you know he wasn't simply an aristocrat, he was the military leader who conquered Jerusalem from the Ottomans in 1917.

>A general getting giddy at the idea that he's a crusader doesn't mean everyone cared about the crusades as some ideological ground to stand on
If a British general were to conquer Jerusalem today and say what Allenby said, he would be scorned to no end.

What he said reflects the generally much more positive attitude towards things like the crusades at that time.

>nor does it mean socialists managed to convince everyone only in recent time to stop celebrating the crusades and feel guilty about them.
Well someone convinced Europe to do exactly that in the last hundred years or so.

And the socialists were the most rabid anti-clericalists in that very time period.

So yeah.

>I literally said the exact opposite in the exact fragment you quoted.
You said it was fallacious to say that socialists discredited the Middle Ages out of anti-clericalism, because they attacked more than just the clergy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:57:38 2014 No.5396091 >>5396073 I'm not sure what your point is. Europeans are bad?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 15:58:56 2014 No.5396096 >>5396073 >Eastern scholarship and technology was of course monumentally important to Western intellectual and social development. In some ways. The Europeans built more off of each other than they did from the East, at least that's my opinion on it.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:30:18 2014 No.5396219
File: 22 KB, 272x400, Martin de Porres2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5395996
>Euros basically didn't view non-Europeans as human beings from the Renaissance well into the 1900s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_the_Moor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_de_Porres
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant%C3%B4nio_de_Categer%C3%B3
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teresa_Juliana_de_S%C3%A3o_Domingos

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:38:56 2014 No.5396239 File: 2.06 MB, 695x9999, NGITPV6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5396091 Someone is fascinated by Edward Said's "Orientalism".

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:39:46 2014 No.5396241 File: 28 KB, 652x437, Aurora-consurgens-ladyinred.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:41:18 2014 No.5396247 File: 45 KB, 547x439, sophia aurora consurgens.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:41:23 2014 No.5396248

>>5396219
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_colonization_of_the_Americas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism
>basically

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:44:30 2014 No.5396262 >>5396241 >>5396247 I'm not an art expert but these look like Middle Age art, yes? If so, the quote >>5395996 says "from the Renaissance well into the 1990s"

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:46:00 2014 No.5396267

>>5396248
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_wars_in_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Great_Campaigns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere

We could go on indefinitely, my point is that you can't say "Europeans didn't consider non-Europeans as human beings" when the Catholic Church, the ur-European institution not only was trying to evangelize non-Europeans during this whole period, but it even canonized non-European saints.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:48:33 2014 No.5396273 >>5389911 Underrated post

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:48:53 2014 No.5396277
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>>5395996
Please. Euros fantasized about a kingdom of black Christians lying beyond the Muslim curtain all through the middle ages. About how rad it would be to have black brothers in Christ. And then hundreds of years later they discover Ethiopia and realize Prester John wasn't just a fable after all.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:52:35 2014 No.5396291
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>>5396219
My favourite black saint is Moses the Black.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_the_Black

>Moses had a rather difficult time adjusting to regular monastic discipline. His flair for adventure remained with him. Attacked by a group of robbers in his desert cell, Moses fought back, overpowered the intruders, and dragged them to the chapel where the other monks were at prayer. He told the brothers that he didn't think it Christian to hurt the robbers and asked what he should do with them.

That's some badass nigga.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:53:08 2014 No.5396292 File: 51 KB, 748x392, teamwork.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 16:57:36 2014 No.5396309 File: 1.36 MB, 2547x1644, St George and the dragon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:03:14 2014 No.5396327 >>5396239 >SALVEEEEEEEEEEEEEE >REGINAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA kek. Who the fuck spends his time doing these?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:03:29 2014 No.5396331 File: 51 KB, 629x251, fart - smug fucking demon.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5395808 The middle ages loved farts. They used to have professional farters. This is why they are better than modern times. Farts are wonderful.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:05:14 2014 No.5396338

>>5396267
>>5396219
>>5396241
>>5396247
>>5396291
>>5396292
This is all art of (or of persons of) the Middle Ages or earlier.
>"Europeans [basically] didn't view non-Europeans as human beings [from the Renaissance well into the 1900s]"
Europeans, nor anyone, of the Middle Ages really gave a fuck about races or had any firm racial identities. Most relations were recognized on the linguistic and religious line.
>>5396277
>>5396292
These are Ethiopian images.
>Euros fantasized about a kingdom of black Christians lying beyond the Muslim curtain all through the middle ages. About how rad it would be to have black brothers in Christ.
And source on this and friendly relations between Ethiopia and European nations during and after the Renaissance?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:08:11 2014 No.5396351 >>5396338 Ethiopia was known as far backs as the greeks.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:11:21 2014 No.5396364

cont.
>Most relations were recognized on the linguistic and religious line
Which is exactly why we find these African and other saints in the early history books, though as much later and not in public knowledge.

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_wars_in_Europe
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Great_Campaigns
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
As for these, my point wasn't that conflict between groups doesn't exist elsewhere. Some saints from per-Renaissance doesn't change the latter racial attitudes where, not even a hundred years ago, something like the Crusades would've been celebrated long before it would've been questioned ideologically.

>>5396351
Again, talking about later.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:11:46 2014 No.5396365

>>5395648
>Nietzsche was a Marxist/socialist

Ha, but, no. He really wasn't.
I must thank you for the book recommendation, and you seem to know your shit about the middle ages, but the modern era is no more blinded by socialism than the middle ages was blinded by Christianity. There are multiple forces at play, including (as I mentioned him) Nietzsche's depiction of Christianity (not just Slave Morality, but also about how the Germans were just pirates burning the ancient world to the ground and creating the Dark Ages in search of booty).

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:15:34 2014 No.5396380
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>>5396364
>Implying the Crusades aren't something to be celebrated
Anyone who is a member of the church Christ built with Peter as the base can find something to celebrate in the Crusades.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:15:41 2014 No.5396381
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>>5396338
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_de_Porres

>he died, on November 3, 1639
>beatified in 1837
>Middle Ages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_the_Moor

>Benedict died at the age of 65 and, it is claimed, on the very day and hour which he had predicted. At the entrance of his cell in the Franciscan friary of St. Mary of Jesus, there is a plaque with the inscription: "This is the cell where Saint Benedict lived", and the dates of his birth and death - 1524 and 1589
>Benedict was beatified by Pope Benedict XIV in 1743 and canonized in 1807 by Pope Pius VII.
>Middle Ages

>And source on this and friendly relations between Ethiopia and European nations during and after the Renaissance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence#Copts_and_Ethiopians

>On 26 August 1441, Sarteano returned with four Ethiopians from Emperor Zara Yaqob and Copts.[6] According to a contemporary observer "They were black men and dry and very awkward in their bearing (...) really, to see them they appeared to be very weak".[7] At that time, Rome had delegates from a multitude of nations, from Armenia to Russia, Greece and various parts of north and east Africa.

Please, stop, it's getting ridiculous and ruining the thread. You may impress your subaltern studies professor who is completely and utterly ignorant of Catholic history, but not us.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:20:25 2014 No.5396403 >>5396380 even here, there's a rightwing theory that crusades were rehearsals for nationalist fanaticism, orchestrated by jews.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:22:45 2014 No.5396414
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>>5396364
>something like the Crusades would've been celebrated long before it would've been questioned ideologically.

Your notion that the Crusades were celebrated because of "racial attitudes", and not because THE MOST IMPORTANT FUCKING CITY FOR THE ENTIRE CULTURE WAS BACK IN THEIR HANDS is ideological unto itself.

For the most part Muslims ignored the Crusades, until the XXth century it was considered a non-issue (unlike the Mongol invasions, for example). Then, under the shadow of the British and French empires muslim and European anti-colonialist scholars began dissecting the Crusades as a "precedent" for European colonialism.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:24:23 2014 No.5396421

>>5396403
Crusades were on the first order for the express purposes of uniting the Roman and Eastern Churches (from the papal view) and defensively after the weakening of the Byzantine Army due to Norman conquests and muslim encroachments (obviously from Byzantine perspective). The Crusaders actually are believed to have developed a lot of respect for the muslim peoples they fought with some thinking that the Templars adopted some muslim beliefs, leading to their condemnation later. This of course doesn't address the bottom level man who fought for the forgiveness of his sins he was promised by the pope's and bishops.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:27:25 2014 No.5396434

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turquerie

>european elites adapt to the culture of the leading imperial power of the age
>they were being oppressors through "Otherizing"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernization

>non-european elite adapts to the culture of the leading imperial powers of the age
>they are being oppressed and "Otherized"

The most easy thing in the world is to be a post-colonial theory professor. You just need to "blame whitey" for everything and you will always have a job and prestige.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:28:45 2014 No.5396441 >>5396434 >there are people that actually believe this strawman Go back to your containment board naziboo

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:29:32 2014 No.5396444 File: 23 KB, 400x234, partriarchs-map.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5396414 >4 of 5 of the most important spiritual centers of Christendom were on non-christian rule >still christians are imperialistic and oppressive

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:30:34 2014 No.5396447 >>5396441 But there is a guy doing exactly that in this very thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:31:13 2014 No.5396448 >>5396447 Then he should go back to his fucking containment board.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:31:40 2014 No.5396450 The name of the Rose by Umberto Ecco is a slow burner, but great historcal novel, covering such themes as the tension between pope vs emperor and tensions in the cleregy: rich vs rags. in the middle ages.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:32:35 2014 No.5396453 >>5396450 The best thing about The Name of the Rose is that Umberto Eco managed to get his anti-clerical tendencies unto line. Sadly, he could't do it with The Prague Cemetery.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:35:12 2014 No.5396461
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>>5396381
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_de_Porres
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_the_Moor
I actually didn't meant to link back to only the art pieces. Regardless they don't wash away my original responses to your list >>5396219

>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Florence#Copts_and_Ethiopians
>1431–1449
Did you even try, anon? Keep trying to convince yourself

>>5396414
>Your notion that the Crusades were celebrated because of "racial attitudes"
>not because THE MOST IMPORTANT FUCKING CITY FOR THE ENTIRE CULTURE WAS BACK IN THEIR HANDS
>THESE ARE DIFFERENT TO MODERN PEOPLE, REALLY

Jesus. No on has this patience.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:36:15 2014 No.5396466 >>5396461 >I actually didn't meant to link back to [these,] only the art pieces.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:46:41 2014 No.5396494 oh fuck, after dealing with years of teleological linear scientist narratives of history, now i have to hear this forced /pol/ish shoehorned racial theories Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:47:31 2014 No.5396497

>>5396461
You asked for sources on "friendly relations between Ethiopia and European nations during and after the Renaissance." The 15th century was the Renaissance.

I could as well post this anyway, Portuguese and Ethiopian Empires allying to fight the Ottomans, but i was afraid you would cling to the notion that they were Christians fighting Muslims to keep your argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssinian%E2%80%93Adal_war

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:48:43 2014 No.5396499 >>5396494 I'm from /pol/ and I think that the racial theories bullshit view of the middle ages is retarded.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 17:51:32 2014 No.5396506 >>5396494 The guy coming with racial theories is probably a /lit/ resident, fan of Edward Said and other post-colonial theorists. He is the one shoehorning 20/21st century racial conflicts unto Early Modern Europe.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 18:39:14 2014 No.5396683 >>5389660 >deriding Giordano Bruno dropped he's got the right idea, but nah, fuck him. also, what's with the /pol/ seal?

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 18:41:36 2014 No.5396694 >>5396494 /pol/ here, I dont subscribe to any of those theories, this is what they learn in universities these days.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 19:37:21 2014 No.5396952 File: 32 KB, 250x250, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5396683 That is NOT the /pol/ seal.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 19:45:25 2014 No.5396980 >>5396499 >I'm from /pol/ >>5396694 >/pol/ here autism_is_a_feeling.png

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 19:53:24 2014 No.5397019 >>5396980 If you seriously think /pol/ is autistic you are wildly misinformed

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 19:55:17 2014 No.5397031 >>5397019 denial_is_a_feeling.png

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 21:00:31 2014 No.5397349 >>5397031 Jokes on you I don't know what images you're referring to. Your may may doesn't work on me!

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 21:02:54 2014 No.5397363 >>5395805 And so they should. They should also be masturbating to what came later, that's all.

Anonymous Sat Sep 6 21:40:51 2014 No.5397538

>>5395935
>But it does, it shows the mindset at the time.
No, it shows the mindset of one man.

>It shows that the crusades were not seen as the heinous war crimes they are said to be today.
They're not seen that way by serious scholars or students, and it's ridiculous to be citing socialism as the single greatest factor for this supposed anti-medieval sentiment that's so apparently prevalent today. It's lazy, betrays an agenda, and is just plain childish.

>There was always anti-medieval propaganda, but only recently has the anti-medieval propaganda drowned out the more positive views of the middle ages.
Even if this could be proved, you're attributing it to a single cause with a very precarious logic that has been shown to be hollow in this thread already.

>>	Anonymous Sat Sep 6 21:47:07 2014 No.5397566 >>5396239 this looks like it was made by someone who reads Bastard!! trying to make a funny and falling off his chair.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:10:48 2014 No.5399080

>>5396365
I have repeated many times that socialists were not the only ones to combat the clergy. Please have the discipline to read the entire discussion if you wish to join.

My point was that it was (primarily) the socialists who were responsible for the RECENT (during the last century) indoctrination that the crusades and middle ages were evil.
People in the West did not think this way at the beginning of the 20th century.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:17:09 2014 No.5399101

>>5389813
no in western culture there has been a push to further understand the middle ages, late antiquity, and the transition from the roman empire to the middle ages

also there has been a negative view of the middle ages since the renaissance (hence the creation of the term 'dark ages') and the anti-clerical sentiment arose during the enlightenment

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:19:13 2014 No.5399106

>>5397538
>No, it shows the mindset of one man.
As an example.
If a military leader from a Western nation were to conquer Jerusalem in military conquest today, and make the same proclamation, he would be publicly scorned and most likely relieved of his duties.
So it shows the mindset of the broader Western community at the time.

>They're not seen that way by serious scholars or students
Of course not. But they are seen that way in the Western public opinion.

>it's ridiculous to be citing socialism as the single greatest factor for this supposed anti-medieval sentiment
I have repeated many times that socialism was not alone in this.
But socialism is the biggest factor behind the most recent indoctrination that the crusades and the middle ages were evil caused by religion.
Socialism was by far the greatest opponent of clericalism in the West in the last century, especially in Europe.

>you're attributing it to a single cause
No, i'm indicating a primary cause in the last century.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:23:54 2014 No.5399122

>>5399106
>If a military leader from a Western nation were to conquer Jerusalem in military conquest today, and make the same proclamation, he would be publicly scorned and most likely relieved of his duties.

because the western world has since experienced the second world war.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:24:03 2014 No.5399123

>>5399101
>no
Then explain how Western sentiment vis-à-vis the crusades and middle ages has deteriorated so drastically compared to 100 years ago.

The crusades are one of the archetypical arguments to discredit Western European history. This is a very recent evolution, and one that coincided with the drastic rise in atheism in Western Europe, which in turn has to do with the rise of socialism and the socialist anti-clerical struggle.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:25:43 2014 No.5399126

>>5399101
>also there has been a negative view of the middle ages since the renaissance (hence the creation of the term 'dark ages') and the anti-clerical sentiment arose during the enlightenment
I never said socialism was the sole responsible party, just that they were the primary anti-clerical agent in the last century.
Please learn to read discussions before you join in.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:26:43 2014 No.5399130 >>5399122 >because the western world has since experienced the second world war. What does that have to do with anything?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:26:44 2014 No.5399131 >>5399123 >one that coincided lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:28:23 2014 No.5399136 >>5399130 "western sentiment" (whatever the hell you're vaguely talking about) doesn't really look favourably on war anymore

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:30:10 2014 No.5399141 >>5399126 please learn to make a comprehensible point

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:31:12 2014 No.5399145 >>5399123 >vis-à-vis kek

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:36:15 2014 No.5399160 >>5399131 >>5399141 >>5399145 Don't be upset. >>5399136 So the crusades are considered "evil" simply because they were wars? Huh.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:40:45 2014 No.5399183

>>5399160
>Don't be upset.

lol?

>So the crusades are considered "evil" simply because they were wars?

yes simply they simply are. would you simply not simply agree? i say let us discuss the crusades and western sentinment in an oversimplified manner more over some fine cocktails good chap

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 05:45:22 2014 No.5399195 File: 95 KB, 500x600, gwi1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] There was literally nothing wrong with the Crusades

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 06:11:45 2014 No.5399235 >>5399195 the project as such, no, just a legitmate humanitarian intevention. the outbursts of violence against civilians alog the way are unjustifiable, though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 09:00:54 2014 No.5399587 >>5399235 Those are drastically overstated.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 09:38:43 2014 No.5399735

>>5399080
>My point was that it was (primarily) the socialists who were responsible for the RECENT (during the last century) indoctrination that the crusades and middle ages were evil.
Can you provide any examples of this indoctrination that proves socialists were primarily responsible for the supposed recent crusade myths?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 09:42:40 2014 No.5399764 >>5399735 Have you ever lived or read about a socialist country? The persecution of the religious and the attempt to stomp out their culture happened even in anti-stalinist regimes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 09:46:36 2014 No.5399789 >>5399735 IIRC it's more due to enlightenment thinkers than admitted socialists as Professor Madden says in his attempt to set the record straight.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 09:55:31 2014 No.5399847 >>5396444 Have you any other maps about the patriarhates? I know Constantinople was eventually extended into Greece, but I don't know if Rome retained Africa and Mauritania.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 09:56:16 2014 No.5399851 >>5399764 I'm asking for specific examples of socialism indoctrinating people about the crusades, not whether Stalinist regimes persecuted or suppressed religion.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 10:13:31 2014 No.5399942 >>5399847 The lands under the purview of the Patriarchate of Rome are anything which followed the Roman Catholic faith. Did those lands stay loyal to Roman Catholicism? Or were they conquered by the Muslims.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 10:20:06 2014 No.5399970 >>5399764 Like in Venezuela were Chavez constantly insisted on his catholic background and quoted the bible to get the religious support?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 10:43:11 2014 No.5400090 >>5387926 >.vellum lost

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 11:18:16 2014 No.5400216

>>5383393
i liked this.

Also liked:
The New Concise History of the Crusades (Critical Issues in World and International History)
Madden, Thomas F.

The Crusades: A Reader (Readings in Medieval Civilizations and Cultures)
Allen, S.J., Amt, Emilie

The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades (Oxford Illustrated Histories)
Riley-Smith, Jonathan

etc

Loved reading the different views people had from attending the same religious lectures.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 12:56:06 2014 No.5400571 Has anyone read Thomas Asbridge's The Crusades. I thought it was supposed to be one of the more recommendable records of the Crusades, but it hasn't been mentioned in this thread. Actually, maybe that's a good thing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 13:13:34 2014 No.5400629 >>5400571 I deeply regret that purchase.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 14:04:17 2014 No.5400805 >>5400629 Why? I'm only a few chapters in, but it seems pretty solid so far.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 14:42:17 2014 No.5400974 I highly recommend Saladin by Anne-Marie Eddé. The historiography and analysis in this book is outstanding. She doesn't fistfuck "O extremely moral Saladin" down your throat

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 14:56:40 2014 No.5401028 >>5399080 >make sweeping generalizations >get called out >complains >>>/pol/

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 14:58:14 2014 No.5401035 >>5399123 >vis-à-vis Do you even know what that means?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 14:59:34 2014 No.5401046 >>5399106 >he would be publicly scorned and most likely relieved of his duties. So what does socialism have to do with this?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 15:00:36 2014 No.5401054 >>5399160 >Don't be upset. Haha oh wow, IP filtrered

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 15:06:09 2014 No.5401071 >>5400805 Asbridge goes out of his way to connect the crusades to the Terrorist attacks in 9/11. It's so illogical it made me ill.

>>	Tallis !!y+12CeFwYOo Sun Sep 7 15:26:44 2014 No.5401145 >>5385498 lol that's not medieval look at all this shitty early renaissance perspective

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 15:27:10 2014 No.5401147
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>>5399080
>My point was that it was (primarily) the socialists who were responsible for the RECENT (during the last century) indoctrination that the crusades and middle ages were evil.

Any sources on that?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 15:30:49 2014 No.5401161 >>5401145 >scene extends past painting >renaissance

>>	Tallis !!y+12CeFwYOo Sun Sep 7 15:34:16 2014 No.5401175 >>5401161 >Van Eyck, 1432 >Flemish Primitives >not early renaissance lel

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 15:40:37 2014 No.5401203 >>5399942 They were conquered by Muslims, but I'd like to know the extent of the patriarchate before that. Roman Catholicism only came around after the schism.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 17:09:09 2014 No.5401564 >>5401203 Roman patriarchate was usually synonymous with western empire. But as that map indicates dogmatists were more present in Northern Africa than Latins

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 18:52:13 2014 No.5402065

>>5399183
>lol?
making fun of wordings like "vis-à-vis" and "one that coincided", and saying things like "make a comprehensible point" are arguments from butthurt.

>yes simply they simply are
No they aren't.
If they were they'd be treated like any other war in history, which they aren't.

>>5399735
>Can you provide any examples of this indoctrination that proves socialists were primarily responsible for the supposed recent crusade myths?
The socialist struggle against anything linked with religious heritage during the last 100 years, and how the sentiment vis-à-vis things like the crusades and the middle ages deteriorated significantly during that same time.

>>5401028
>sweeping generalizations
Are you saying socialists didn't try to discredit Western religious heritage?

>>5401035
I speak French as well, so yes.
You, however, obviously don't since you mistakenly believe I used it wrong.

>>5401054
Epic troll.

>>5401147
>Any sources on that?
Any and all socialist efforts to discredit Western religious heritage.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 18:53:23 2014 No.5402070 >>5401145 >>5401175 Italy was going through early renaissance, but the renaissance only reached past the Alps around the year 1500.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 19:21:45 2014 No.5402169 >>5402065 >Are you saying socialists didn't try to discredit Western religious heritage? No but where's your source that shows that they're the driving force behind common sentiment?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 7 19:23:19 2014 No.5402173 >>5401175 >>5402070 I was pointing out how it was unlike renaissance and medieval art by the scene extending past the painting, which is a trait found in post-renaissance art.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 19:29:07 2014 No.5402189

>>5402065
>Any and all socialist efforts to discredit Western religious heritage.
That's not a source.

Since you were unable to respond to >>5399851 it's pretty clear you have no idea what you're spouting, and I think I speak on behalf of everyone in this thread when I say you should probably shut up now. Your time would be better spent reading something, preferably history.

Anonymous Sun Sep 7 19:31:34 2014 No.5402198
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>>5402189
>and I think I speak on behalf of everyone in this thread
Speak for yourself, I'm enjoying lurking through the shit-flinging and nonsense-spouting that is happening here.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 03:47:48 2014 No.5403892 >>5402173 Indeed, which proves that the low countries were going through an artistic evolution of their own, relatively independently from renaissance which was at that time (early 15th century) still very much confined to Italy.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 04:51:01 2014 No.5404034

>>5402189
>>5402169
In large parts of Western Europe, Socialists were the most ardent opponents of clericalism after WWII.
This meant they directly opposed the deeply entrenched Catholic institutions and heritage.

Hence, they are in large part responsible for the modern PC outlook on things like the crusades, at the very least in many areas of Western Europe.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 04:54:06 2014 No.5404039 >>5402189 >you should probably shut up now I think you should be talking to these shitposters: >>5399183 >>5401035 >>5401054 Also, this: >>5399764 wasn't me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:00:28 2014 No.5404692 >>5404034 >still no proof Wow

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:01:41 2014 No.5404699 >>5404039 >ip filter guy >shitposter Some guy on a /g/ irc channel was sharing a script that was able to IP filter people, so fuck off.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:10:38 2014 No.5404730

>>5404692
You think socialists weren't the most ardent opponents of clericalism after WWII in large parts of Western Europe?

>>5404699
He isn't a shitposter because of the IP filtering thing, he's a shitposter because he believes these posts:
>>5399131
>>5399141
>>5399145
are anything other than shitposts.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:13:19 2014 No.5404738 >>5404730 >You think socialists weren't the most ardent opponents of clericalism after WWII in large parts of Western Europe? Show me proof.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:13:51 2014 No.5404739 >>5404738 No.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:16:02 2014 No.5404747 >>5404739 Then shut the fuck up if you're going to talk out of your ass.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:17:59 2014 No.5404752 >>5404747 >if you don't prove widely known facts to me, that means you're talking out your ass

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:23:56 2014 No.5404763 >>5404752 >widely known If they were "widely known" then there would be a surplus of proof which you could link me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:24:25 2014 No.5404764 >>5404763 >spoonfeed me, or else!

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:25:23 2014 No.5404768

>>5404752
Something like proof would be bringing up works like Fiefs and Vassals (http://www.mediafire.com/view/iatouqp7fb0590c/Fiefs_and_vassals.pdf)) which talk about the problems with the modern concept of feudalism though. The author doesn't mention socialists mass brainwashing people being the main reason as the problem started way before socialism was a thing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:25:54 2014 No.5404771 >>5404764 Okay keep talking out of your ass then to sate your hateboner for socialism.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:29:32 2014 No.5404780

>>5404768
I have repeated many times that I never indicated socialism as the sole anti-clerical agent.
I have repeated many times that I repeated this.

It is only recently that the PC outlook on the crusades for instance took such hold, and socialism is largely responsible for this recent anti-clericalist push in Western Europe.

>>5404771
Sorry for triggering you by mentioning socialism in a negative light.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:31:57 2014 No.5404784 >>5404780 >It is only recently that the PC outlook on the crusades for instance took such hold, Nah its been around for a while. You are giving the socialist too much credit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:32:26 2014 No.5404785 >>5404780 >I have repeated many times that I never indicated socialism as the sole anti-clerical agent. But you said it was the driving force >Sorry for triggering you by mentioning socialism in a negative light. lol I'm not even socialist

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:35:08 2014 No.5404794

>>5404784
>Nah its been around for a while.
Ever since the time of the crusades themselves, to be exact.

But it is only recently that we Western Europeans were told to be ashamed of them, and this recent evolution is in large part owed to socialist anti-clericalism in Western Europe.

Not 100 years ago, prominent Western European figures could still allude to the crusades in a positive light, today this is no longer possible.

>But you said it was the driving force
In recent times, roughly since the end of WWII, which was also when socialism gained its strongest hold on Western European politics.

>lol I'm not even socialist
Nor did I say you were.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:37:42 2014 No.5404803 >>5404785 >But you said it was the driving force In recent times, roughly since the end of WWII, which was also when socialism gained its strongest hold on Western European politics. >lol I'm not even socialist Nor did I say you were.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:39:03 2014 No.5404809 >>5404803 >In recent times, roughly since the end of WWII, which was also when socialism gained its strongest hold on Western European politics. P R O O F

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:42:22 2014 No.5404816 >>5404794 The only people who thought of the Crusades in a positive light were conservatives, reactionaries, and some catholics. David Hume, Gibbon, and Protestant historians had a far more negative view.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:43:47 2014 No.5404819 >>5404794 The anti crusading view began in the enlightenment when thinkers were trying to distance themselves from the church.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:43:56 2014 No.5404820 >>5404816 Also Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't have too fond of a view of them either.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:44:49 2014 No.5404823 >>5404820 They're still butthurt over muh 4th Crusade

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:46:17 2014 No.5404826 >>5404823 How could you not be butthurt over that?

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:48:13 2014 No.5404833

>>5404809
Socialism set itself up as the political antithesis to Christianity.
Not in the least due to the anti-religious content of the ideology ("religion = oppression").

Only half a century ago, socialists were trying to wrest political power away from the church by undermining Catholic schools, having all religious symbols removed from public places, etc.

I'm not here to give you any source on a wide variety of events that led to the widely accepted fact that socialists actively opposed religion.

>>5404816
>>5404819
I have repeated many times that I never indicated socialism as the sole anti-clerical agent.
I have repeated that I repeated this.
I even repeated that I repeated that I repeated this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:48:46 2014 No.5404835 >>5404826 Because it's not like it was encouraged by the pope. He specifically condemned it and almost excommunicated all the crusaders.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:49:43 2014 No.5404839

>>5404816
>The only people who thought of the Crusades in a positive light were conservatives, reactionaries, and some catholics.
What time period are you talking about?
Because I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Catholics thought very highly of the crusades for a very long time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:49:47 2014 No.5404840 >>5404833 Socialism traces it's roots to enlightenment philosophy and liberalism. So you're pretty much singling out the more recent actor, I'm just trying to bring it back to the source.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:52:17 2014 No.5404852

>>5404833
>I'm not here to give you any source on a wide variety of events that led to the widely accepted fact that socialists actively opposed religion.
see >>5399970
>I'm not here to give you any source on a wide variety of events that led to the widely accepted fact that socialists actively opposed religion.
I'm not asking for any, I'm asking for proof that they have made any headway in casting a negative light on religion.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:55:02 2014 No.5404870

>>5404840
>So you're pretty much singling out the more recent actor
That is exactly what I've been doing, as I repeated many times.

My point was that it was during the socialist anti-clerical push that Western Europe was taught to feel collective, innate shame at things like the Crusades.

Today, the Crusades have become one of the archetypical arguments against Europe's Catholic heritage.

This was certainly not the case in the 18th or 19th centuries.

>>5404852
>I'm asking for proof that they have made any headway in casting a negative light on religion
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature (...), the opium of the people (...) the illusory happiness of the people."
-Karl Marx

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:57:57 2014 No.5404885 >>5404870 >"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature (...), the opium of the people (...) the illusory happiness of the people." >-Karl Marx Again, I'm asking for proof that they have made any headway, not for proof that they're anti-religion.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 10:59:48 2014 No.5404891 >>5404885 Pretty sure the ideas of Karl Marx made headway, yes. My particular country in Western Europe for instance enjoyed almost 30 years of uninterrupted socialist government participation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:00:46 2014 No.5404897 >>5404870 >Crusades have become one of the archetypical arguments against Europe's Catholic heritage Yeah because European Protestants hated European Catholics and did everything they could to demean them.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:01:47 2014 No.5404904

>>5404897
I have repeated many times that I never indicated socialism as the sole anti-clerical agent.
I have repeated that I repeated this.
I even repeated that I repeated that I repeated this.
I now repeated that I repeated that I repeated that I repeated this.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:01:56 2014 No.5404906 >>5404897 Seriously fuck Protestantism. Ruined everything.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:01:59 2014 No.5404908 >>5404891 >Pretty sure the ideas of Karl Marx made headway, yes. Now you're really talking out of your ass.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:02:58 2014 No.5404910 >>5404908 Now you're really shitposting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:04:29 2014 No.5404915 >>5404910 You gave me no proof because there isn't any, Marxism has very little effect on the average person's opinion. But continue to think that socialism is relevant with no proof.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:07:31 2014 No.5404919

>>5404915
>continue to think that socialism is relevant with no proof
I just told you that the socialists in my Western European country have been in the government for almost 30 years without interruption.

Socialist parties are among the biggest political parties all over Western Europe.

Yet here you are claiming that socialism is "irrelevant".

You are a shitposter.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:07:54 2014 No.5404920

>>5404904
You keep repeating that Socialism is the biggest reason for how people see the middle ages today and whenever someone says it might not be the biggest, or the most notable, or even a large factor in many cases you backtrack and say the same shit.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:12:37 2014 No.5404924

>>5404919
>Socialist parties are among the biggest political parties all over Western Europe.
http://www.results-elections2014.eu/en/election-results-2014.html
On top of that if you want to talk about relevance in the Western world after WWII the US blows Europe out of the water.
>You are a shitposter.
Whatever you say bud.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:12:48 2014 No.5404925

>>5404920
>You keep repeating that Socialism is the biggest reason for how people see the middle ages today
No, I keep repeating that socialism has been the chief anti-clerical agent in the last century (say post-WWII), and is thus largely responsible for the current negative views on the Crusades which are much more prevalent in Western Europe than ever before.

>whenever someone says it might not be the biggest, or the most notable, or even a large factor in many cases you backtrack and say the same shit.
Many people have listed other detractors of the crusades or the middle ages, but nobody itt has said that socialism wasn't the biggest anti-clerical agent in recent times (say post-WWII).

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:15:33 2014 No.5404930 >>5404924 Your graph shows 39% for socialist parties. Proving their relevance in Western Europe. >if you want to talk about relevance in the Western world after WWII Holy shit, I'm not talking about this at all.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:18:19 2014 No.5404934

>>5404930
>Your graph shows 39% for socialist parties.
It says 25%, and you said they were the largest, which clearly isn't the case.
>Holy shit, I'm not talking about this at all.
>My point was that it was during the socialist anti-clerical push that Western Europe
>My particular country in Western Europe
>just told you that the socialists in my Western European
You're talking about the Western world, yet you're not at the same time?

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:21:17 2014 No.5404940

>>5404934
>It says 25%
For the S&D.
There's also the GUE/NGL and the greens/EFA.

But even if you only count the S&D, 25% is more than enough to be counted among the biggest political parties of Western Europe.

>you said they were the largest
I said they are "among the biggest".

/lit/ is the wrong board for you if you cannot read.

>You're talking about the Western world, yet you're not at the same time?
I'm talking about socialist influence in Western Europe.

/lit/ is the wrong board for you if you cannot read.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:24:29 2014 No.5404944

>>5404940
>I'm talking about socialist influence in Western Europe.
After WWII, which is the time period that the US had massive amounts of influence over the Western world, including Western Europe.
France and Western Germany were razed to the ground and were rebuilt with help from the US, Britain was declining due to the dismantling of their colonial empire, and with the Soviet threat in the East the US gained more and more influence in Western Europe as it was the only country that could go toe to toe with Russia.
>/lit/ is the wrong board for you if you cannot read.
It's also the wrong board if you don't know any history.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:27:57 2014 No.5404951

>>5404944
>After WWII, which is the time period that the US had massive amounts of influence over the Western world, including Western Europe.
You think only one element can have any influence at a time?

>It's also the wrong board if you don't know any history.
You are hilarious.

You claimed that I said the socialists were "the largest", when I said they were "one of the biggest".
You claimed that I was talking about "Western influence", when I was talking about socialist influence in Western Europe.

You cannot read.

You also said that socialism was "irrelevant" in Western Europe.

You are an idiot.

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:43:20 2014 No.5404996

>>5404951
>You think only one element can have any influence at a time?
No but to say that that the US wasn't the dominant force that steered the entire direction of though from WWII to the late 90s is pretty dumb.
>You claimed that I was talking about "Western influence", when I was talking about socialist influence in Western Europe.
If you can't connect that the US's influence overpowers the socialist's influence then you're slow.
And no, your shitty little country where the "socialists" managed to get a hold of power isn't relevant.
>You also said that socialism was "irrelevant" in Western Europe.
If they truly are relevant then why don't we see them overpowering Conservative parties on every issue?
>You are an idiot.
Takes one to know one ;^)

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:48:11 2014 No.5405009

>>5404996
>to say that that the US wasn't the dominant force that steered the entire direction of though from WWII to the late 90s is pretty dumb.
Are you trying to tell me the US dominated every single aspect of European politics until the late 90s?

Then why were socialist parties so successful?

>the US's influence overpowers the socialist's influence
So it was the US that caused state funding for Catholic schools to be reduced?

>your shitty little country where the "socialists" managed to get a hold of power isn't relevant.
Socialist parties are among the biggest political parties ALL OVER WESTERN EUROPE.

>If they truly are relevant then why don't we see them overpowering Conservative parties on every issue?
Because "being relevant" =/= "being all-powerful".

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:48:42 2014 No.5405011 >>5404996 Commies won in the US. Slowly, but they did it. It was nice knowing y'all. http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm

Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:52:31 2014 No.5405022

>>5405009
>Are you trying to tell me the US dominated every single aspect of European politics until the late 90s?
Yes
>Then why were socialist parties so successful?
They weren't. they've only been getting headway recently now that the Cold War is over.
>So it was the US that caused state funding for Catholic schools to be reduced?
No but to say that the US's interests weren't held above other party's interests is ignorant.
>>5405009
>Socialist parties are among the biggest political parties ALL OVER WESTERN EUROPE.
Recently, yet you're talking about nearly the entirety of the 20th century.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:58:43 2014 No.5405043 >>5405022 >"The US dominated every single aspect of European politics." >"Except a bunch of things like Catholic school funding." You are retarded, and I'm not talking to you anymore.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 11:59:51 2014 No.5405049 >>5405043 >"Except a irrelevant things like Catholic school funding." Fixed >You are retarded, and I'm not talking to you anymore. k You are retarded, and I'm not talking to you anymore. Oh and thanks for the last word ;)

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 12:08:47 2014 No.5405093 >>5405043 >m-m-muh socialism boogeyman >muh autism >i must be right lol and then he got #rekt and left like a little babby

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 12:53:53 2014 No.5405246 >>5388367 He is about to slap that bitch.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 12:56:45 2014 No.5405257 File: 12 KB, 305x183, PhVybYu[1].j.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5389399 > "There by Dragons" they said. > The only one i find in hours is retarded

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 13:13:50 2014 No.5405327 >>5405049 >irrelevant things like Catholic school funding Wasn't this whole discussion about exactly that kind of thing? Socialism chipping away at shit like Catholic heritage?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 8 17:31:05 2014 No.5406341 >>5405327 I took the discussion to a boarder subject than just Catholic schooling. If anything you could blame American Protestantism too.

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/lit/ - Literature