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/lit/ - Literature

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5371730 No.5371730[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Would you agree that Christian thinkers are an essential part of the western philosophical tradition?
Secondly, why is it that they are often ignored? Philosophy overviews often skim through the middle ages like they're not relevant, a huge error in my opinion.
Both converted platonists like Augustine and the scholastics are amazing and certainly worth studying.

>> No.5371756

Who told you that they're often ignored? Aquinas is one of few philosophers that create a backbone of philosophy.

Heidegger used to say it's not crazy to think that Greeks and Aquinas understood more from philosophy than his contemporaries.

>> No.5371767

well, read them and go back to tumblr. And take your diversity bullshit with. There's only one "philosophical tradition". It's the one made up by Hegel.

>> No.5372004

currently reading pseudo dionysus, the father of western negative theology. pretty great. i find him to be more neo-platonic than christian though

>> No.5372291

>>5371730
>christianity
>thinkers
*tips fedora*

>> No.5372315

I think "Christian thinker" is kinda an oxymoron.

>> No.5372324

>>5372315
>>5372291

The greatest thinkers in history were Christian, what's the matter?

>> No.5372327

>>5372324
>implying
its not possible to be a thinker when you're a sheep lel
you can't be both

>> No.5372330

Aquinas was influenced by Averroes who was a muslim and whom Raphael painted next to Aristotle and Plato on his The School of Athenas.

This being said western and islamic tradtions are a lot more mixed up than we think. Makes me sad when I see media spreading fear.

>> No.5372338

>>5372327

You're a sheep, idiot. And that's true. I've been an agnostic for past 10 years, but greatest thinkers of European tradition were Christian.

>> No.5372343

>>5372338
>agnostic
wishy washy fuckdick

>> No.5372354

>>5372343
>not adressing the point

That's why I don't want to be associated with atheists. You're making wrong, outrageous claims and then start insulting people to hide your ignorance.

>> No.5372364

>>5372354
>implying i have to address your point
you're pretending that mindless sheep are capable of intelligence. I don't need to address your points with that lack of logical reasoning.

>> No.5372387

>>5372327

'Tis true, m'lady!

>> No.5372389

>>5371730

>Would you agree that Christian thinkers are an essential part of the western philosophical tradition?

Essential in that they were there, writing about what people genuinely believed at the time, and their mistakes are useful points of analysis

>Secondly, why is it that they are often ignored? Philosophy overviews often skim through the middle ages like they're not relevant, a huge error in my opinion.

Wrong. They are NOT relevant. Kant blew them away and then he got blown away by Nietzsche. They are useless to any thinking organism in the year 2014.

>Both converted platonists like Augustine and the scholastics are amazing and certainly worth studying.

They are retarded. They were all far stupider, at the peak of their intelligence, than I am today. Even stupider than many of you.

>> No.5372390

>>5372364
>mfw 3 out of 4 greatest logicians of all time were Christian and 4th one was deist

oh i'm laffin

>> No.5372402

>>5372327
Indeed, because no Christian has ever read the bible themselves and formed their own opinion. Sheep.

>> No.5372421
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5372421

>>5372291
>>5372315
>>5372327
>>5372343
>>5372364

>> No.5372422

>>5372330
My only problem with islam is that
-they want me not to drink in august (that's like asking fot a suicide, I can get not eating but not drinking iced tea or even water under this sun is SUICIDE)
-they want not to eat delicious pork
-they want girls not to dress up pretty

>> No.5372447

>>5372421
Where in the gatdamn F*ckshit is William Lane Craig??? And Darwin who converted on his deathbed

>> No.5372467

>>5372447
it's per mille of Christian legacy.

>> No.5372496

>>5372421
terrible list

>not listing Boethius
>not mentioning Bede's historia ecclesiastica gentis anglorum
>not listing Rodger Bacon, one of the greatest scientists of the middle ages

was this list made by someone that knows anything about the subject or was it just created by typing christian scientists into Google and copy-pasting from Wikipedia?

>> No.5372515

>>5372338
>but greatest thinkers of European tradition were Christian

So were the worst.

So were the most mediocre.

What's your point?

>> No.5372530

>>5372364

What the fuck man. You just supported >>5372354 's point.

> You're making wrong, outrageous claims and then start insulting people to hide your ignorance.

>> No.5372546
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5372546

>>5372530
I can't tell if you genuinely don't at least suspect that the person you're replying to might be trolling you or are just playing along, but either way, stop.

>> No.5372548

>>5372515
See the post I was replying to and decide for yourself what's my point. If someone claims that "x" is incapable of "y" I'm pointing out that in fact it is and history gives a lot of examples.

>> No.5372551

>>5372315
>pop history actually happened like Carl Sagan tells
it didn't

>> No.5372554

I read Augustine and he sucked balls.
How would I go about changing this line of thinking?

>> No.5372573

>Secondly, why is it that they are often ignored?

Their arguments have been debunked into oblivion and they're now completely irrelevant

>> No.5372583

>>5372554
haven't read him but inventing the "Si fallor, sum" sounds pretty cool, why does he suck?

>> No.5372586

>>5372551
Why do people imagine a milquetoast like Carl as some kind of rabid anti-theist? He wasn't.

>> No.5372588

>Aquinas ignored
>who is Anscombe
>what is analytic tomism

>> No.5372589
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5372589

>>5372551

You're right, the Middle Ages were a time of enlightenment and tranquility

>> No.5372592
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5372592

>>5372573
Being wrong about everything doesn't preclude someone from being an important and noteworthy figure within their field.

>> No.5372594

Alright, so it looks like this thread is winding down, so let's draw some conclusions, shall we?
>Would you agree that Christian thinkers are an essential part of the western philosophical tradition?
Collectively, we do not.
>Secondly, why is it that they are often ignored?
Because they're living oxymorons. It's not possible to be both a Christian and a thinker. They are sheep pretending to be intelligent.

>> No.5372595

why can i not replay anomore

>> No.5372604

>>5372422
>-they want me not to drink in august (that's like asking fot a suicide, I can get not eating but not drinking iced tea or even water under this sun is SUICIDE)

Ramadan rotates around the year bruh. Lunar calendar.

>> No.5372606

>>5372586
i don't, i love Carl Sagan, but the history section in the original Cosmos was pretty bad and some people like to take it too seriously and invent some kind of narrative of the catholic church somehow fighting against knowledge through history

>>5372589
some parts of the medieval times sucked, but the inquisition was prosecuting heretics, not scientists, like at all

>> No.5372617
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5372617

The Idea that somehow Christians can't have knowledge or innovative ideas is fucking dumb. History plainly shows otherwise, Just because they are wrong about the existence of god doesn't mean they can't invent or discover something that doesn't have anything to do with that. Really the only thing holding back christian thinkers is the social institution of religion hat sets limits on acceptable thought and ideas and nothing inherently about the belief in god.

>> No.5372619

⇒Christian thinkers

Top oxymoron. Christianity teaches people to not use their brain.

>> No.5372620

>>5372594
baby's first trole :D

>> No.5372623

some people like to thing for some reason that traditional christians were like modern fundamentalist christians, but fundamentalism is a pretty modern invention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist%E2%80%93Modernist_Controversy

>> No.5372631

>>5372617
Problem is you try to defend great thinkers who happened to be Christian and you find yourself rubbing shoulders with people who think that it was their Christianity that is entirely to credit for their intellectual contributions.

>> No.5372658

>>5372631
yeah that's a fucking dumb idea too, especially considering all the scientific knowledge we have gained thanks to the Pagan, Muslim, and Far East world. Hell the new world had the Mayan civilization with such a vast comparative understanding of the cosmos to ours even though they where considered savages yet no one credits them with being intelligent due to the spiritual beliefs they held.

>> No.5372661

>>5372606
>but the inquisition was prosecuting heretics, not scientists, like at all

You're saying this as if one could not become the other, which it did, a lot.

But anyway, the fact that at the only time when the Catholic Church was in charge of society, they practically banned freedom of speech says more than enough. Free inquiry cannot thrive when your rulers tell you what to think, and this is exactly why theocracies inevitably fail

>> No.5372677

>>5372606
this

the papal inquisition didn't give a fuck about scientists. They were only interested in Heretical sects that challenged church authority like the Dulcinites or Waldensians

>> No.5372708

>>5372661
>You're saying this as if one could not become the other, which it did, a lot.
what does that even mean? the church didn't forbid any studies of natural philosophy, they just forbid being a Cathar, Waldensian or Jew, and it sucks not having freedom of religion but that hardly has anything to do with science except that some of them may have been natural philosophers

>> No.5372724

>>5372708
Giordano Bruno
wasn't any of those though

>> No.5372738

>>5372724
>Giordano Bruno

He wasn't a scientist too. Just an occultist. Church feared he was going to revolt the peasantry

>> No.5372758

>>5372724
he was born in 1548 which is hardly the middle ages.

I guess i can accept that example as the church killing somebody that hindered scientific advancement. So we have one example in 1600 years I guess. That's hardly systematically hindering thought

>> No.5372768

>>5372661
not really take for example Roger Bacon the 13th century scientist

Bacon wrote a Treatise for the pope were he called the Julian Calender shit tier and stated the sizes and positions of the Planets but noone accused him of heresy

on the other hand Fra Dolcino was executed for opposing the wealth and authority of the church

so in the middle ages advancement of science was not hindered but suggesting that church should not be wealth would likely end with you being slow roasted

>> No.5372769

>>5372583
I only read confessions, but I was super excited to go back to core christianity because I was thinking in 'ancient' times when they didn't know so much the theology would be a lot more rooted in science and observation. But he literally never goes beyond "god did it" god did this and then he did that and it's just hundreds of hundreds of pages with god did everything and it doesn't explain a thing about why I should believe him.

>> No.5372776

>>5372758
see
>>5372738

>> No.5372787

>>5372769
>I was thinking in 'ancient' times when they didn't know so much the theology would be a lot more rooted in science and observation.
but Christianity is just neo-platonism rebranded. The "ancients" never approached knowledge in an empiric way.

I mean there's been some degree of empiricism in all cultures, but greek or roman empiricism doesn't stand out

>> No.5372911

>>5372787
Well greek empiricism certainly stands compared from what I got from reading Augustine.
I just will not believe that christian thinking sucks this much because I know how much the church changed the world but I am really not finding anything of value in those texts.

>> No.5372926

>studying philosophy
>being atheist

lol

>> No.5372998

I think Father Barron sums it well, the problem is with the modernist meta-narrative which has its most known form in Enlightenment thinkers. Basically, history presents a fight of enlightened non-superstitious humans against the tyranny of religion, which was eventually defeated and science and rationalism reigned supreme. Now anyone with some basic knowledge of history and human thought sees this as it is, a naive biased narrative. Unfortunately it's still the majority view.

>> No.5373007

>>5372787
He shouldn't read Christian thinkers, or hell, anything before the modern ages if he expects "empirical" thinking. Empiricism is not a given in philosophy nor should it be.

>> No.5374453

>>5372554
weren't Albertus Magnus and Thomas Aquinas more into natural philosophy?