/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5347951]

>The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
>Proverbs 1:7

Is this true? Why would anyone fear Jesus?

[Anonymous No.5347961]

>>5347951
>Jesus
>in the old testament
Motherfucking plebs.

[Anonymous No.5347976]

>>5347961

The old testament is ripe with references to Jesus.

[Anonymous No.5347985]

>>5347976
is that from one of the egyptian god cards from
yugioh

[Anonymous No.5347990]

Jesus != the Lord

[Anonymous No.5347996]

>>5347976
Isn't prophecy fun?

>Referencing the future

[Anonymous No.5347997]

Out of curiosity, why would any nonbeliever read the bible?

[Anonymous No.5348016]

>>5347997
Oh boy here we go

[Anonymous No.5348030]

>>5347951
As Machiavelli said:
>It is much better to be fear than loved, if you cannot be both,

[Anonymous No.5348038]

>>5347976
Or the New Testament is rife with references to messianic prophecies.

[Anonymous No.5348045]

Reverence.

[Anonymous No.5348097]

>doesn't understand how the quality of being God-fearing could be a good thing

So when you're reading an older piece of literature and you encounter "God-fearing" used in an affirmative way, do you just scratch your thick monkey cranium and say "It was in the past so why should I care what it means lol"

[Anonymous No.5348106]

>proverbs
>Jesus
epic meme bro

[Anonymous No.5348123]

>>5348030
Ever seen the movie A Bronx Tale? There's an awesome scene where this idea is discussed. Don't know how to link to a YouTube video on this phone or I would include it.

I know this ain't /tv/ but its a great flick all around, and has my favorite de Niro role. You should check it out.

[Anonymous No.5348127]

Imagine you are God. You have the power to create everything we humans know and don't know. You have the power to create beings so powerful that just one of them can completely annihilate an entire city. You are so strict in your ways that you have turned someone into a pillar of salt for looking back as they ran away from the unspeakable things your angels are doing to cities.

A god is a fucking scary concept, if you didn't know. If you piss him off, he will fuck you up in more ways than you can comprehend, and you'll stay fucked forever in Hell or Nonexistence. God has no obligation to save anyone, even the meek, because he's God and what he says goes, no matter what a book says. He could decide we're a bunch of faggots and kill us all. It was the Mutually Assured Destruction before bombs were even a concept. Ultimately, you can't save yourself and we're all at the mercy of jealous God.

[Anonymous No.5348133]

>>5347976
To be more precise, the minor prophet section of the old testament is filled with references to a messiah. It's only later, when the Jewish view of exercising the human powers of love and reason became a part of the overall perspective among some obscure prophets that the concept of an ideal messiah came into being. I'm pretty sure Noah would'nt have beleived in such a lofty philosophical concept. The Jews in the early days were sand-dwelling barbarians. They didn't give a shit about some distant messiah.

Also, it was a general theme that was passed along, not a prophesy of Jesus. Look for youself. All of the minor prophets have a somewhat different (not that much though) view of what the future lodestar of the Jews would be like.

tl;dr You're wrong about the references

[Anonymous No.5348138]

>>5348038
Not really, all I got from Old Testament prophecies is that something unifying will happen in the future and throw down all who bring themselves up using wealth and trade.

[Anonymous No.5348143]

Jesus wasn't god.

[Anonymous No.5348186]

>>5347951
You fear His ultimate power and judgement, and so you are consequently awed by his utter compassion. Without understanding how fearful He is, you wouldn't appreciate how amazing your opportunity for salvation is. That's why this "fear" is the "beginning of wisdom."

If the Lord wasn't frighteningly powerful, he wouldn't be much of a god at all.

[Anonymous No.5348232]

>>5348097

this is hardly an explanation, more of just mockery.

[Anonymous No.5348238]

>>5348133

the OT references Jesus metaphorically and symbolically, not just via Prophecy.

Also via the trinity, any reference to God qua God, will include Jesus as well.

[Anonymous No.5348239]

>>5347976
"Rife" you mean --

[Anonymous No.5348243]

>>5348143
Human Jesus was not God

[Anonymous No.5348245]

>>5348239

ripe is fine too. have you ever encountered metaphorical language?

[Anonymous No.5348248]

>>5348243
>Human Jesus was not God

he was God and Man; that's the part that defies our simple human logic.

[Anonymous No.5348255]

>>5348127
>kill us all
Reason #1 why you should read the Bible. After the Flood, God promised Niah he would never again kill off Humanity. We're still here, aren't we. If you live in the West and you are ignorant of the Bible, you're missing out on a vast chunk of our cultural heritage! Proverbs, the life of Jesus -- amazing, stirring reading even for nonbelievers.

[Anonymous No.5348256]

>>5347951
>interpreting verses from ancient texts in modern translated languages without first referencing the detailed meaning of the original words used

cant get mo pleb op

rule 1 in studying religion:
>go to the original language, always, without exception

translations are just helpful guides while you learn the original language bit by bit, then you can see how translators very very often simply miss the point or use a weird choice of translation. in a lot of sacred texts, they use specialty words that build on each other throughout the text, this is totally lost in translation where due to context several english words might be used for the same ____ word.

[Anonymous No.5348260]

"Noah"

[Anonymous No.5348262]

>>5348256

this isn't an answer, you're just ranting

[Anonymous No.5348264]

>>5348262
shut the fuck up, that post is valuable as fuck

[Anonymous No.5348286]

>>5348186
But you should realize that the purpose of describing the old testament God as a wrathful vengeful God wasn't to make the people realize the consequences of not believing in him. It was to instill fear among the Jews so that they could be controlled better. God was defined as a jealous, angry, fierce, and capricious sky-god (his actions, not his esscense, they thought that could hardly be understood by men for some reason) so that the people would be more easily controlled by the leaders.

It's pretty obvious that it was efficacious. The slaughter of the tribes of Canan, the worshipers of the Golden calf, and the prophets of Baal just go to show how little understanding of God's power for the purpose of understanding salvation meant to the ancient Jews.

Actually, the Jews didn't give a shit about graceful, redeeming salvation. Christianity pulled that concept out of it's ass. Nevertheless, that's a decent inference, anon.

[Anonymous No.5348309]

>>5348248
no, he wasn't God when he was on earth. it wasn't until his resurrection that he was God.

God worked THROUGH him while he was on earth

[Anonymous No.5348317]

>>5348232
Yeah, sorry about that. It sort of devolved into a mockery over time. Whatever.

[Anonymous No.5348319]

The way to be "good" is through obedience.

[Anonymous No.5348326]

>>5348319
>the way to be "good" is to do things that are morally acceptable
more like

[Anonymous No.5348357]

>>5348256
Not OP, but I agree with you. It's especially because of the different grammar structures of the differnt languages that this needs to be done. I'm too much of a lazy NEET to learn ancient languages, so I just read the interpretations of the text. They usually include references to specific literary translations (the important ones at least).

Also, what other languages do you know, anon?

[Anonymous No.5348360]

>>5348309
>he wasn't God when he was on earth

[Anonymous No.5348363]

>>5348309

Ahmed please go...

[Anonymous No.5348398]

>>5348319
Yep, Christianity is the purest form of slave morality. Having one conform or be trampled over by the conformity, saying that there will be no "I will" and that there will be only "You shall not", and defining morality in terms of obedience to the conformity is pretty much as slaveish as it gets.

>if you don't worship God you'll burn in Hell!
>If you don't conform and erase your individuality you're utterly useless to us

Thus spoke Jesus

[Anonymous No.5348435]

>>5348398

>having principles and choosing your own values makes you a "slave"

[Anonymous No.5348499]

>>5348360
>>5348363
hardcore ex-catholic, went through beginning clergy training, I know what I'm talking about

>>5348398
its even creepier if you knew how baptisms used to happen.

first, you had to give up ALL your personal possessions and move to a remote place (away from your family unless they were also getting baptized), to live in a community. the community took your possessions and sold them "for you" to help fund their cause. everyone wore "white" robes, white relative to the time. you had to live there at the minimum 2 years (later reduced to 6 months when they were trying to recruit a LOT). after you were deemed worthy, they would take you to a remote lake, and hold you under water until you stopped struggling; they "perfected" how long the average human could hold their breath (if you can guess how they found that out ;) ). thats why they call it "born again" and "new life."

Christianity is the original cult

[Anonymous No.5348508]

>>5348398
Christianity teaches that those with slave morality are actually superior to those with master morality. Those who serve will triumph; the meek shall inherit the earth. Those who are last will be first, and those who are first will be last.

No wonder Nietzsche detested it.

[Anonymous No.5348558]

>>5348499
>hardcore ex-catholic, went through beginning clergy training, I know what I'm talking about

well if you finished your training you'd have a better understanding.

Orthodox Monk level 99, successfully exorcised over 400 demons; I equip a Staff of Wisdom+5 at all times. Period.

[Anonymous No.5348573]

>>5347951
It doesn't say that. It says fearing Yahweh is wisdom, and if a god can kill whole civilizations off on a whim or give his prophets power to summon ravaging bears that kill children, then he ought to be feared.

[Anonymous No.5348578]

>>5348573
>if a god can kill whole civilizations off on a whim or give his prophets power to summon ravaging bears that kill children, then he ought to be feared.

[Anonymous No.5348622]

>>5348499
Source for the shit about baptism? (I was also raised catholic and was heavy into it til about 12/13, ceased considering myself Catholic (or christian or religious at all for that matter) within another year or two).

[Anonymous No.5348632]

How many of you actually fear God?

[Anonymous No.5348665]

>>5348398
>he's never read spinoza's accounts of determinism

[Anonymous No.5348722]

>>5348398
you'll find that most common truths end up resulting in a paradox.

to expound

that which is its own pristine essence cannot be contaminant of another source of thinking, or it merely a composite of values paralleling the logic of its origin

the only way to progress is to stop, or as that other anon said, those who are last will be first

free will requires the ability to shape future events in such a way where their nature is not controlled or restricted in any realms. free will to a drunk is the ability to speak the mind. free will to a teen is to act within the parameters of their curiosity. however, the notion behind both of these definitions stems from subjective experience, and so individual ideas of free will are ironically inhibiting the freedom of people as they are not grounded by a pure source of logic.

christianity asserts that all acts done under the will of god, love, rather than conformation with fallible subjective pragmatics will lead to the purest "will".

you must be choose to be a slave to be a free man

you must choose to fear god to no longer suffer under his power

this was my first /lit/ post, don't hurt me

[Anonymous No.5348725]

Fear of god is great if you are an inmoral hack, just think that anytime you do something bad an omnipotent force will be tempted to destroy you

[Anonymous No.5348736]

>>5348622
some books we had at one of our retreats. couldn't tell you the author or title of the books, something generic like "history of catechism"

its not even that closed of a conversation in the church, scarily. when my sister asked me to be the godparent of her child, a few years ago, and the deacon in the class even talked about the "cult" side of baptism. he didn't go into the gruesomeness of drowning

[Anonymous No.5348739]

God-fearing just means possessing reverential awe, right?

[Anonymous No.5348744]

>>5348722
Not bad for a first time poseter, anon. I agree with you.

[Anonymous No.5348758]

>>5348739
Nope, it's more than shocking dumbfounding awe. It's existential fear for your fate.

Remember, you have to fear God and be scared at the possibility of you dying to be a good Christian! A terrified Christian is the best Christian.

[Anonymous No.5348759]

Obedience is the key, for we are to obey Jesus.

Fear comes from the consequences of not obeying Jesus.

[Anonymous No.5348770]

You have to be indoctrinated early for the "shock n awe" aspect to take root. Then it's like a trigger and you're part of a giant club.

[Anonymous No.5348852]

>>5347951
Because he can damn you to Hell if you deserve it. Also fear of God.

[Anonymous No.5348877]

Fear closes people down to knowledge and wisdom its the worst. If people were fearful (of god or whatever) society would have made no progress.

[Anonymous No.5348922]

>>5348398
a) 'Hell' is a purely pagan concept, not Christian
b) 'Erasing your individuality' is a Buddhist thing. Individuality is a reflection of man's divine nature in Christianity, it's a sin to 'erase' it.
c) Plz go, you fucking tard.

[Anonymous No.5348938]

>>5347951
the lord is unknown and undefinable, and it provokes us to know and define.

[Anonymous No.5348939]

>>5348922
Can you provide some evidence for point A? I've started St. Matthew, and so far Hell and Satan have been mentioned more than in the entire books of Kings, Joshua, Judges and Ezra.

[Anonymous No.5348940]

>>5348922
>a) 'Hell' is a purely pagan concept, not Christian

Every school of Christianity has a hell concept, of one sort or another.

[Anonymous No.5348965]

>>5348922
>Individuality is a reflection of man's divine nature in Christianity, it's a sin to 'erase' it.

Are hesychasm and other forms of theosis sins?

[Anonymous No.5349083]

>>5348965
>Are hesychasm and other forms of theosis sins?

No. And none of those erase or undermine your individuality.

[Anonymous No.5349179]

semitic religion that is basically about stoicism and obedience to societal norms, but "jesus" introduced the "mysticism"/tautology element to it, creating a clusterfuck of insanity

[Anonymous No.5349244]

>>5348939
>Can you provide some evidence for point A?
Read the Gospels and point to the part where 'hell' is mentioned. (Protip: you can't.)

>>5348940
> Every school of Christianity has a hell concept, of one sort or another.
No, wrong. Every school of Christianity is willing to accommodate the concept of hell in a Christian way.

Read the Creed again. No 'hell' is mentioned, only the resurrection in the times to come.

[Anonymous No.5349313]

>>5349244
Matt. 5:22, "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
Matt. 5:29, "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell."
Matt. 5:30, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell."
Matt. 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 18:9, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire."
Matt. 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."
Matt. 23:33, "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
Mark 9:43, "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."
Mark 9:45, "And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell."
Mark 9:47, "And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,"
Luke 12:5, "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!"
James 3:6, "And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell."

[Anonymous No.5349353]

>>5347976
Confirmed for having never read the Old Testament beyond a gloss over.

The Old Testament is filled with references to A messiah. Not THE messiah, but a hypothetical one that would come to deliver them from sin and fulfill the prophecies and the laws of the Israelites.

No where in the Old Testament does it say that there's this guy in Nazareth named Jesus that's going to be born in a couple hundred years that'll absolve us from sin.

[Anonymous No.5349391]

>>5347997

Cultural significance. Literary value. Entertainment. Any number of reasons. If you live in America, it's important to know what a plurality of of your elected representatives think the world is like.

>our secretary of agriculture thinks humans were comanded by God to consume everything because the world is going to end in his lifetime anyway

Welp.

[Anonymous No.5349421]

>>5347951

The trinity is a myth. Jesus never claimed to be God. On the other hand you should fear God.

[Anonymous No.5349433]

>>5349313
In the original text it's 'Gehenna', not 'hell'. If the evangelists wanted to say 'hell' they would have written 'Sheol' or 'Hades'.

The concept of 'hell' was known to them, but they purposefully chose to not use it in the Gospels.

'Gehennom' is a place where bodies where cremated. It's specifically not an afterlife, but a place where a 'second' or 'final' death occurs.

[Anonymous No.5349454]

>>5349421
The virgin the mother and the hag are the true trinity.
Jus' sayin' y'all
[aspoiler]Mary is the white goddess[/spoiler]

[Anonymous No.5349460]

>>5349433

Jesus definitely believed in the afterlife. That's why there were always debates between the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The former believed in the afterlife because they had the concept in the Talmud. This is also the reason why they were more strict in laws like washing hands before eating, that's not in the Torah. The latter did not believe in an afterlife because they were strict Torah-only-ists kind of like modern day Kaarites.

That is why the Sadducees did this in Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

They mention they do not believe in the resurrection here. Later in Acts, Paul says he's a Pharisee because he believes in the afterlife. Jesus also took a decidedly Pharisee view. Earlier Jews didn't believe in Hell but in the Ecclesiastes you can see them debating the question already.

[Anonymous No.5349462]

>>5349421
>being afraid of good people

Slave mentality. Not attractive.

[Anonymous No.5349465]

>>5349462

You shouldn't be afraid of good people like Jesus. You should be afraid of God who is not Jesus.

[Anonymous No.5349477]

>>5349462
>God of the Old Testament
>good

Not even Kirkegaard could rationalize this.

[Anonymous No.5349825]

>>5349477
Isn't it accepted that God hadn't revealed Himself fully before Jesus?

[Anonymous No.5350035]

>>5349460

> We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Resurrection != afterlife. The Christian resurrection is a very bodily one, it's not at all about spirits or souls in some 'heaven'.

Did you miss the whole part between Christ's crucifixion and Acts? You know, Doubting Thomas, etc.?

[Anonymous No.5350040]

>>5349477
> Applying man-made categories like 'good' to God.

[Anonymous No.5350062]

>>5349465
>You should be afraid of God who is not Jesus.
Mah nontrinitarian niggah

[Anonymous No.5350570]

>>5350035

heretic plz. get your strange jehova witness/mormon superstition out of here. You aren't making any sense.

[Anonymous No.5350579]

>>5349244
>Read the Gospels and point to the part where 'hell' is mentioned. (Protip: you can't.)
>>5349244
>. No 'hell' is mentioned, only the resurrection in the times to come.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
--------

>>5349433
>'Gehennom' is a place where bodies where cremated.

The word used is mostly irrelevant since the meaning they ascribe to it is a place of fiery torture and everlasting pain. :^)

[Anonymous No.5350599]

>>5348499
>everyone wore "white" robes, white relative to the time.

What do you mean "relative to the time"? You know soap wasn't invented in the 20th century and that people washed their clothes before washing machines, right?

[Anonymous No.5350619]

>>5347997
To understand better mainstream pop culture, from the Lord of the Rings to The Doors lyrics

[Anonymous No.5350632]

>>5350619
How about to open up the entire world of medieval philosophy and literature to yourself...

[Anonymous No.5350745]

>>5348286
I wrote the answer you replied to from the perspective of Christianity, as if the question had been "How is this proverb relevant to the Christian tradition as a whole" (rather than addressing it in the isolation of the Old Testament), but I think there is still something to be said for the Jewish understanding of that concept as well.
What you said is certainly applicable, especially because so much of biblical Judaism is organized around the protection of a particular lifestyle, but I think some of the Christian understanding of the prerequisite of fear applies to the Old Testament too, despite the relative lack of focus on "salvation." The Old Testament God is still involved in quite a lot of give-and-take, it's just that His promises are often more worldly than spiritual. His followers suffer hardships and punishments, but He also grants them the grace to establish a prosperous nation that survives countless cases of near-destruction. He's always promising them things like that; that they will have lots of descendants or whatever.

In that sense, the stories of the early Fathers are like a prologue, setting up the foundations of a civilization and a religion built on promises that were simultaneously fulfilled and renewed in Christ.
Of course, Christians read the Bible as a single volume, in which writings from disparate times and places are bound tightly by the omnipresence of God. Hence, it is crucial to accept that the obtuse prophecies of the Old are fulfilled by the New even while understanding the confusion the contemporary Jews experienced when their guesses about the character of their coming Messiah turned out to be all wrong (a shepherd, not a warrior). So even though the early readers (and even the writers) of the Jewish tradition would not have interpreted it the same way I do, Christian Bible study totally depends on applying new lenses to ancient writing, in the same way modern literary criticism does.

[Anonymous No.5350778]

>>5348739
Awe is the consequence of contemplating salvation while in that state of fear. The idea that God is like a kid holding a magnifying glass over an ant hill, and yet instead of torturing you he gives you eternal life is something that shocks and confuses us. This is why a lot of Atheists say they "wouldn't trust god."

[Anonymous No.5350821]

>>5349179
"Semetic" religion, like all pre-missionary religions, is all about conservation (the preservation of a way of life). For the Jews, this way of life was pastoralism, hence "Cain and Abel" (the farmer jealously kills the herder and begets evil), "The Cities of the Plain" (the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which subsist on sedentary farming, are inherently sinful), and of course all the shepherds and lamb-references.

But maybe that's what you meant by "societal norms" (I would strongly avoid using that phrase in this context, however. Communities of the ancient Jewish type are more like what you would think of as a "tribe"--they even use this term liberally in English to describe the Israelites--than what you would call a "society."), in which case I somewhat agree with you on the fundamentals.

[Anonymous No.5350838]

>>5347997
Because somebody's got to, and the believers all either can't or won't read anything but teen fashion magazines.

[Anonymous No.5350867]

>>5350579

this is accurate actually

[Anonymous No.5350923]

>>5350745
This is correct.

[Anonymous No.5351087]

>>5348255
>implying an omnipotent god can't change his mind and revoke his promise for reasons we can't even comprehend

[Anonymous No.5351284]

>>5350821
This is a good post

[Anonymous No.5351735]

>>5350745
>I wrote the answer you replied to from the perspective of Christianity

Oh, I didn't realize that. I though you were a Christian. Whatever. Anyway, I think that what you said is pretty much true. I think your point that the New testament fulfills the Old Testament is a bit misleading, since the concept of the messiah only came about later in Jewish history (refer to my previous post >>5348133).