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/lit/ - Literature

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5315691 No.5315691[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Does Harry Potter have literary merit?

>> No.5315740

No, and the first person to admit it is Rowlings herself.

>> No.5315756

Harry potter is a reader's guilty pleasure. You might enjoy it, but you will hate yourself for it.

>> No.5315761
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5315761

>>5315691
Yes, almost as much as pic related.

>> No.5315768

>>5315761
Goddamn that nigga was hungry

>> No.5315960

>>5315691
Define literary merit. In some cases, no but in most cases of course it does.

>> No.5315965

>>5315691
moreso than 50 shades of grey

>> No.5315976

>escapist trash
>literary merit

pick one

>> No.5315990

I don't care what anyone says, the whole background behind Snape's character was amazing and I cannot believe Rowling pulled that off.

>> No.5316001

It's kind of interesting when you realize that Harry is an unreliable narrator.

Well technically he's not the actual narrator but 90 of what we see is from his limited and kind of stupid point of view.

>> No.5316002

>>5315976
There's an incredible art in reaching into one's escapist fantasies and painting there for them some goodness in the real world. J.K. Rowling is an amazing person, nothing short of it.

>> No.5316003

>>5315990
yeah, reminded me of Murtagh from Eragon

>> No.5316018

Rowling's prose in the latter books is fantastic, Half Blood Prince in particular. That first chapter is just a masterpiece

As the books went on, the plots got worse, but the prose got better. The best plot was Prisoner of Azkaban, but best prose was Order of the Phoenix or Half Blood Prince

Rowling was particularly good at communicating Harry's thoughts.

>> No.5316027

>>5315740

Sauce?

>> No.5316035

>>5315691
I don't think so. It reads so explicitly like children's literature – there is nothing in Harry Potter that isn't immediately comprehensible by an actual child.

>> No.5316044

>>5315976

Untrue, fuckface. Escapism is at the heart of many great novels.

>Moby Dick / Hermit Melon
>The Old Man and the Sea / Ernst Hommelwit
>Infinite Jest / Doffar Fanat Walls
>The Republic / Platar

I could go on but I won't, because fuck you.

>> No.5316052

>>5315761

i am really tired, and this made me laugh really hard for some reason, so thanks.

>> No.5316056

>>5316044
Incorrect. The author of the Old Man and the Sea is 'Ernest Hemmmingway'.

>> No.5316060

>>5316056

i don't get it

>> No.5316061

>>5316035
Kids don't seem to pick up on the fact that the puzzles in the first book guarding the stone aren't actually intended to prevent someone getting to the last room and that the whole thing is actually a trap.

>> No.5316062

>>5316027
I don't know about that guy but my favorite is probably blackened ranch from Popeyes.

>> No.5316068

>>5316060
Newfag detected.

>> No.5316069

>>5316061

How is it a trap if the (bad-intentioned) person getting through couldn't get the Stone from the mirror, anyway? Where is the danger if it is simply a dead end?

>> No.5316073

>>5316069
There's no way out except back the way you came.

The adult characters are basically trying to bait Voldy down there so they can capture him. One of the ways they do this is by having Snape make a show of wanting the stone for himself even though he doesn't just to Quirrell will feel like he has to get it first.

>> No.5316082

>>5316073

Ah, ah. Got it. Thanks mate. Rereading these books out loud to my sister atm (on the fifth). Feels good.

>> No.5316086

>>5316073
Also, the fact that the other trials are puzzles which have solutions and the final one is literally impossible for anyone who isn't Harry gives away the fact that they're not really intended to guard the stone. They'd be just as effective if they put the Mirror in the Great Hall and told people the stone was in it.

The other puzzles are meant to make the person think the mirror must be some kind of puzzle too so they'll waste time trying to solve it instead of escaping.

>> No.5316087

>>5316082

And my voices are the best you've ever heard. Will take vocaroo requests.

>> No.5316113

>>5316044
I fail to see how any of those books offer escapism-- especially Plato's fascist dictatorship.

>>5316002
I'm not talking about art I'm talking about literary merit. A retard's finger paintings of a pony can be art, but that doesn't mean it has merit.

>> No.5316124

>>5316113

Confirmed for having no imagination whatsoever.

>> No.5316129

>>5316124
It was also just quite a dumb post in general.

>> No.5316136

>>5316087
Do Dumbledore as Nemo, Morgan Freeman as Dory, and Voldemort as Martin, with the entire transcript of Finding Nemo.

>> No.5316145

>>5316124
>>5316129
I thought the point of escapism was to read about places you'd... want to escape to.

>a doomed whale ship lead by a mad man
>an old man alone on a boat during an economic downturn
>a fascist dictatorship
Who wants to escape to those places? Do they really offer an "escape" when they're just as bad or worse than reality?

>> No.5316148

>>5315691
Sure, it has a decent sense of in-world mythology and Rowling's pretty adept with fantasy tropes. She's not a great writer, and I wouldn't say its literary merit is huge, but it's got some, and it's better than lots of other YA and even some adult fiction.

>> No.5316151

>>5316136
his name is Marlin, like the sport fish

>> No.5316154

>>5316145

Eh, they're exciting alternate realities, y'know? I would never want to be there, but now I know what it's like. It's great to be able to be on the skiff with Santiago, chewing the raw tuna, but then to look up, be in my upper-middle-class apartment, and make myself a sandwich. Escapism provides perspective.

>> No.5316171

>>5316154
but what I'm saying is that's not escapism.

You seem to think every book provides escapism. Only books that coddle the reader with perfect waifus and happy endings and mary sues and sparkly utopias provide escapism.

>> No.5316176

>>5316171

Oh.

escapism |iˈskāpˌizəm|
noun
the tendency to seek distraction and relief from unpleasant realities, esp. by seeking entertainment or engaging in fantasy.

You're absolutely right. I never read the definition. It just seemed to me as "an escape," which is how I see all books, and so I was just confused, I guess. Sorry about that, anon. You're right

>> No.5316188
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5316188

>>5316145
>who wants to escape to a fascist dictatorship

>> No.5316235
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5316235

check 'em

>> No.5316250

>>5316018
>HP prose

>Harry saw snape.
>"Hi Snape" Harry said.
>"Hi Harry" Snape said.
>Harry felt odd.
>"Do you feel odd?" Snape asked.
>"Why would I feel odd?" asked Harry.
>"I don't know" answered Snape.
>"Are you a snake?" asked Harry.
>"Snakes are green" thoughtfully answered snape.

>> No.5316305

>>5316250
>i'm so angry a woman wrote a better book than I ever could and is not a millionaire because of it

>> No.5316327

>>5316176
I know I am

>> No.5316330

>>5316305
mmh no

>> No.5316333

>>5316250
Confirmed for having never read Harry Potter.

>> No.5316338

>>5316235
hail Vote third-party, our ebin new tripfriend

>> No.5316340

>>5316333
"And for all that she is gifted enough in devising popular scenarios, the words on the page are flat. I think it was Verlaine who said that he could never write a novel because he would have to write, at some point, something like "the count walked into the drawing-room" - not a scruple that can have bothered JK Rowling, who is happy enough writing the most pedestrian descriptive prose.

Here, from page 324 of The Order of the Phoenix, to give you a typical example, are six consecutive descriptions of the way people speak. "...said Snape maliciously," "... said Harry furiously", " ... he said glumly", "... said Hermione severely", "... said Ron indignantly", " ... said Hermione loftily". Do I need to explain why that is such second-rate writing?"

>> No.5316350

>>5316340
Haha, she uses words which succinctly describe personality, what a pleb!

Lego architects, man. Lego architects.

>> No.5316351
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5316351

>>5316113
>Plato's fascist dictatorship

>> No.5316366

>>5316340
who cares what the lead singer of Television thinks though

>> No.5316373

>>5316340
all you had to do was answer, "no, I haven't," since all you did was plagiarize some article from someone who did read it

>> No.5316375

>>5316350
confirmed for never having written anything in his life

you are so pleb you don't even know how to show rather than tell

>> No.5316378

>>5316373
I've read 1-3 when I was 7 or 8 and I enjoyed it. I've tried again like a year ago for the nostalgia and I couldn't get past the prose which was too fucking obnoxious so I just watched the movies instead

>> No.5316382

>>5316340
>>5316373
ahahahahaa you're right

>Here, from page 324 of The Order of the Phoenix, to give you a typical example, are six consecutive descriptions of the way people speak. "...said Snape maliciously," "... said Harry furiously", " ... he said glumly", "... said Hermione severely", "... said Ron indignantly", " ... said Hermione loftily". Do I need to explain why that is such second-rate writing?

http://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2007/jul/17/harrypottersbigconisthep

Say what you will about Rowling, at least she's not a plagiarist

>> No.5316383

>>5316382
fucking retard I put quotation marks for a reason

>> No.5316388

>>5316383
ah, now I see why quoting another person's work was a good response to someone asking if you've actually read it

>> No.5316389

>>5316375
I write well, actually; it's just I'm more appreciative of soul and incisiveness in art than I am, uh, lego architecture.

>> No.5316393

>>5316378
why not jump to 4, 5, or 6, the better written books

its been stated REPEATEDLY that the first few books were written as children audience, and she evolved the writing as the story matured in nature

I remember when I was 16 and couldn't put down Half Blood Prince. I purchased it the day it was released and finished it that day, stayed up until 3am reading

>> No.5316396

>>5316389
and huh it feels like an english woman writing about a wizard is so fucking honest, you know what I mean, that's why I don't read works by great authors. too fucking pretentious and untrue compared to a school of wizards

>> No.5316398

>>5316393
I've actually read the 5th when I was older, can't tell which age, and didn't enjoy it as much, but still kind of liked it, and when I tried the seventh (my step-sister had me brought to the opening night when all bookstores went downright crazy) I just couldn't handle it, it was too fucking bad.

>> No.5316400

>>5316383
I'm aware of the quotation marks, but quoting someone w/o source is plagiarizing

>> No.5316402

>>5316400
no lol

>> No.5316404

>>5316396
She wrote the whole series as a prayer, basically, following her mother's death. She reaches out to children where they retreat to and shows them something decent about the world. Don't be a dumbass dude, anything can be dishonestly/ignorantly reduced to "hurrdurr"

>> No.5316405

Harry potter is lame.

>> No.5316406

>>5316398
if you want to read some terrible fucking writing, read the epilogue of the 7th book

http://freebookonline.net/Fiction/Harry_Potter_and_the_Deathly_Hallows/37.html

it caused the biggest fucking uproar from the fans because it feels like it was written by a junior high student

>> No.5316407

>>5316404
harry potter is shit

get over it

>> No.5316410

>>5316406
>The morning of the first of September was crisp as an apple
nope

stopped there

>> No.5316413

>>5316402
per Harvard's plagiarism policy
>The rule of thumb here is simple: Whenever you use ideas that you did not think up yourself, you need to give credit to the source in which you found them, whether you quote directly from that material or provide a responsible paraphrase.

[spioler]http://isites.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k70847&pageid=icb.page342054[/spoiler]

>> No.5316414

>>5316410
read the whole fucking thing, it gets 10x's worse

>> No.5316416

>>5316413
cool tell them I plagiarized on /lit/ according to their rules

>> No.5316417

>>5316407
It's not though, it's actually beautiful. Hey, if you need to pretend you're something special because "what, crisp as an apple? I'm so much above that" then off you go. I'm just saying: it's pretty fucking ridiculous lol.

>> No.5316418
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5316418

>>5316414

>> No.5316420

>>5316417
what the fuck are you for real

have you ever read a book that wasnt young adult fiction

holy shit is this really happening

>> No.5316423

>>5316420
You can't not know how fake that reads.

>> No.5316425

>>5316423
yes I guess I kind of know ?

>> No.5316427

>>5316425
Yes, I'm sure you do.

>> No.5316430

>>5316427
(I was poking fun at your double negative)

>> No.5316432

>>5316430
And failed.

>> No.5316433

>>5316340
>I think it was Verlaine who said that he could never write a novel because he would have to write, at some point, something like "the count walked into the drawing-room"

It was Valery, who couldn't bear the thought of writing "The marquise went out at five o'clock"

>> No.5316481

>>5316305
She is a billionaire actually.

>> No.5316583

>>5316171
what about Jules Verne

>> No.5316615

>>5316418
It's badly written but pretty funny. That makes for decent Saturday-morning cartoon material.

>> No.5316637

>>5316406
Yeah she said she had that scene planned and written since like the first book. I imagine she perhaps held onto it too strongly.

>> No.5316640

>>5315691
>Does Harry Potter have literary merit?
Yes, only it's a tiny five-inch one.

>> No.5316680

Yes, Harry Potter is great. :)

>> No.5316794

>>5316680
it isn't

>> No.5316821

>>5316382
>Tesco, say, sells the new Potter for about the same price as two tins of beans, in the hope that the mug(gle)s who do so will be convinced that everything in the shop must be marvellous value. Meanwhile, Mrs Betty Cardigan who runs the Lovely Bookshop Round the Corner has to grit her teeth and lose money every time she sells a copy if she is to compete, without being able to sell toilet paper or sushi to make up the difference. If you must buy the book, go to Mrs Cardigan's and, even if it is at a discount, insist on paying full price

hahaha what a fucking fag
pls support muh hipster bookstore with your money
pls
it's like a charity but we'll pretend we deserve the money

>> No.5316849

>>5316794
Yes it is :)

>> No.5316924

>>5316821
>hipster bookstore

You are mentally ill if you think bookshops going out of business because supermarkets can sell books at a loss is a good thing.

>> No.5316967

>>5316924
>a good thing
For whom, the bookstore owners? No, but that's not my problem.
As far as the consumer goes, I don't see how getting the same product (literally the same book, it's not like there's a difference here like between farmers' market and supermarket food) for a lower price is worse.

I pirate all my books and put them on my Kindle though, so I don't really care either way.

>> No.5316973
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5316973

Methods of Rationality do.

Why didn't you read Methods yet? And if you did, how hyped are you for the last arc?

>> No.5316977

>>5315761
>>5315768

Top lel.

>> No.5316983

>>5316413
Protip: use Ctrl+S for spoilers.

Not sure if it works on the default 4chan extension though.

>> No.5316984

>>5316973
I stopped reading when he hadn't updated it in a while and as I changed my computer, lost the bookmark so I have no idea where I'm up to and therefore can't be bothered to start again. I think Hermione had recently died.

>> No.5316989

>>5316984
http://hpmor.com/

Hermione was kill in chapter 89, so start with 90.

>> No.5316993
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5316993

>>5316967
wurst human

>> No.5316995

>>5316973
>Methods of Rationality do.
No it doesn't, that quote-unquote-book is fanfic-shit-tier. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting that.

>> No.5317001
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5317001

>>5316995

>> No.5317005

>>5316393
>been stated REPEATEDLY that the first few books were written as children audience, and she evolved the writing as the story matured in nature

Bullshit. The writing doesnt mature. I'll concede that they become slightly, slightly more violent, and that the page count increases, but every single book is written at a fifth grade reading level, and every single book carries the same childish themes of friendship overcoming evil.

>> No.5317027

>>5316417
>Hey, if you need to pretend you're something special because "what, crisp as an apple? I'm so much above that" then off you go. I'm just saying: it's pretty fucking ridiculous lol.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. That's exactly the kind of sentence that might cause an editor to toss out a manuscript. Although I bet publishers are more leniant when it comes to prose for escapist young adult tripe.

>> No.5317032

>>5317001
Why are you posting Yudkowsky‘s selfie in response?

>> No.5317051

>>5316989
Thanks, that sounds about right. I'll consider getting back to it.

>> No.5317932

>>5316821
OH YOU

>if grocery stores aren't selling the book at MSRP, they're losing money
this is the most retarded logic I have ever read. next you're going to try to convince me that car dealers are losing money when they don't sell their cars at full price

>> No.5317944

>>5317027
nigga, that is from the part of the book that is written by a 5th grader. like >>5316637 said, she probably didn't want to let go of it, and they weren't going to not publish the final of 7 books because of a 5 page epilogue

>> No.5317992

>>5316973
>Yudkowsky
>LessWrong

So the overarching-HP-fanficfag is the same as the scam-artist-futuristpseudo-intellectual-autistic-prophetfag ? I wouldn't have thought there could be so much faggotry in a single human being. 4chan almost looks straight in comparison.

>> No.5318063

>>5315756
If you're a pretentious cunt that allows others to tell him what he should and shouldn't like, yes.

>> No.5318073

>>5316407
J.K.Rowling writes millions of times better than you ever could.

Get over it.

>> No.5318074
File: 131 KB, 882x960, image.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5318074

>>5318073
Soulja-boi is infinitely more successful than you'll ever be. Get over it.

>> No.5318110

>>5318074
who's that guy on the pic?

>> No.5318185

>>5316001
>unreliable narrator
As in he usually has no idea of what is actually going on?

>> No.5318207

>>5315691
Go to sleep, J.K. Rowling. Your career is over

>> No.5318221

>>5318073
I don't remember caring much for Tallis' writing but it's definitely better than anything Rowling's done

>> No.5318248

>>5318110
the guy who thinks harry potter is literarily meritous

>> No.5318784

>>5316056
even you have forgotton the second w in the man's name

>> No.5319963

It's the series that got me into reading.

I dunno if that counts as merit

>> No.5320304

>>5316003
Harry Potter did it first. Fucker.

>> No.5320318

>>5315691
Yes on the basis of being poplar and having an engrossing story.

>> No.5320351

All works are fundamentally a productive and inseparable work of one's culture and thus literary responsibility dictates that one must approach each text as a unique vantage point into the themes and subtleties rampant at both an individual and societal level. Although prosaically not very complex, the works posit deeper less intrusive messages that are infinitely accessible and transmutable.

That said, "literary" fiction will lend itself to greater analyses.

But all work, whether within or beyond the scope of an artist's intention, is manifold in depth.

>> No.5320414

>>5320351

can you explain in clearer words?

>> No.5320424

>>5320414
Alas, no.

Everything — at least all human creations — contain the tools to envision a culture. It is the job of the one analyzing to take it upon himself and assemble from the bare thread of the text. Literary criticism is applied anthropology.

>> No.5320443
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5320443

>>5320424
>Literary criticism is applied anthropology
this is such a fucking miserable dryasdust approach to reading, i genuinely feel sorry for you

>> No.5320453

>>5320424
there's more to our creations than the human webs behind them. when we create and write and read and wonder, we're participating together in a dialogue and striving together towards something much higher than the cumulative "culture" in the background.

>> No.5320456

>>5320443
nice. i'm glad i can wipe my shoes on a rug embroidered, by hand mind you, with initials and let my shoes sit and dry by an unfed fire until smoke is no longer lifted and the book held about on my place-keeper of a knee slams to the centennially oaken floor reminiscent of the lurching ship used for transport.

coooooooool stories abound

>> No.5320482

>>5320453
lol

how old are you?

>> No.5320486

>>5320482
"Uuh...uh...eighteen, officer, I swear!"

>> No.5320724

>>5315761
dont hate the caterpillar, my 9 month old daughter is thoroughly engrossed by it

>> No.5320936

>>5320453
Dude...
That culture is just part of the "human web" though.

>> No.5321515
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5321515

>>5315761

>> No.5321552

>>5315761
Caterpillars do NOT spin cocoons out of silk.

Ruined an otherwise good book for me.

>> No.5322538

It's beautiful when people just enjoy these books, not trying to be hardcore.
You make yourself some tea, get all cozy, pop your harry potter out and just get immersed in this wonderful fantasy.
I wish I could do that...

>> No.5324194

>>5316188
You'd be in the underclass if Plato had his way, faggot.

>> No.5324410

>>5322538
uh
you just do

how do people get to the point where they cant exist and consume in their underwear in private without looking over their ego's shoulder for an opinion

do you have faux pas for eating and or breathing can you not spot the fragile mask people put on

>> No.5325604

>>5316989
i was pretty shocked when that happened. didn't see it ocming

>> No.5325622

>>5325604
more than when harry was killed and voltemort took over the world?

I thought it was quite the twist, everyone expected her to write about harry's triumph

still mad that they changed it for the movies because >muh feel good ending

>> No.5325663

>>5317005
>>5317005

what about the themes like fearing death will drive you mad, accepting it will set you free?

also, whats childish about friendship overcoming evil? that's real as fuck, friendship does overcome evil

>> No.5325674

>>5316171

game of thrones was very escapist for me, i think it coddles the reader, but there are no perfect waifus, happy endings, mary sues, or sparkly utopias so far

>> No.5325687

i dont really understand what's not to like about harry potter

i dont understand what literary merit is either tho, so there you have it

>> No.5326361

>>5325663
Various revolutions and insurgencies of overthrowing oppressive regimes can attest that.

>> No.5326425

Not really, but it is what you make of it, don't listen to all of the opinions on /lit/.

>> No.5326505

>>5316418

What is with all the C?