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/lit/ - Literature

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5266882 No.5266882 [Reply] [Original]

>Jorge Luis Borges is a great writer who has composed only little essays or short narratives. Yet they suffice for us to call him great because of their wonderful of their wonderful intelligence, their wealth of invention, and their tight, almost mathematical, style. Argentinean by birth and temperament, but nurtured on universal literature, Borges has no spiritual homeland. He creates, outside time and space, imaginary and symbolic world it is a sign of his importance that, in placing him, only strange and important works can be called to mind. He is akin to Kafka, Poe, and sometimes to Henry James and Wells, always to Valéry by the abrupt projection of his paradoxes in what has been called "His private metaphysics."
From the preface of Borges' Labyrinths. 13th printing


Does anyone want to talk about this Quixotic idea? I'm not optimistic that anything can come of it, but it's exciting enough to talk/read about. The passage above got me thinking about the possibilities of some movement. It has to embrace a universal approach to literature whatever form. Who are your audience after all? ...Well I have other ideas, but this is a conversation, so I leave it to you.

>> No.5266900

>>5266882
I read an interesting comment in kafka's biography how he was the first and last person of his literary tradition. He was influenced by Dostoevsky, Flaubert, Grillparzer, etc… but his writing was uncannily different from their's, and no one after Kafka has been blatant enough to write like he did, since his style was so unique.

>> No.5266914

this picture reminds me of how terrible the internet is when you let websites use their own fonts

I use lucida fax universally

>> No.5266921

>>5266882
>Borges has no spiritual homeland
Then why won't he stop going on about fucking Martin Fierro geez

>> No.5267041

>>5266882
>Jorge Luis Borges is a great writer[...]call him great because of their wonderful intelligence, their wealth of invention, and their tight, almost mathematical


If Borges was so "great" why he didn't got a Nobel?
checkmate « Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ »

>> No.5267063

that excerpt of the preface is so full of baloney, sounds like the guy picked up a Latin American book and expected it to be full of sombreros and tacos and fiesta. Not to mention how ignorant of most Argentinian cultural products (folklore and novels that never got a third reprint) is to say that "Borges has no spiritual homeland"

and what's Argentinian literature anyways? Borges wielded and wields such an influence on most of the cultural life of the country, that he pretty much gets to define what "Argentinian literature" is going to be about for the next century to come

on a side note, Borges would had liked that idea a lot (the author probably took it from Borges anyways). He said that most classic writers were nothing like the people who had chosen them to be their classics: Shakespeare was nothing like the English and English literature, ditto for Cervantes and the Spanish, Hugo and the French, Goethe and the Germans; as if we had chosen them to somehow make up for what we lack

>> No.5267113

hi, i was op from the other thread

and what i realized was

anyone who would be interested in this is from reddit

and they'll want to make it into a reddit thing and stamp out any qualities that would actually make it unique and not homogenous reddit bullshit

so, butterfly, i think you should read more, do some more healing on that arm, and drop this

>> No.5267120

>>5267041
Not butterfly, but that's due to his unfortunate approval of Pinochet and other dictators, as far as I remember.

>> No.5267125

>>5266882
stop attention whoring, you dumb cunt

>> No.5267166

>>5267120
>unfortunate approval of Pinochet

>>5267063
> he pretty much gets to define what "Argentinian literature" is going to be about for the next century to come

This is the point:
>implying he doesn't face the same end of Heidegger in Germany

>> No.5267196

>>5267063
>Shakespeare was nothing like the English and English literature, ditto for Cervantes and the Spanish, Hugo and the French, Goethe and the Germans
that's a pretty interesting thought

>> No.5267250

>>5267196
that's just a cliché pseudo-deep phrase for making wet the high school girls.
literature doesn't comes out only from other literature, but even from architecture, music, history...

>> No.5267265
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5267265

>>5267120
There is nothing unfortunate about approving Pinochet.

And Pablo Neruda got a Nobel while approving Stalin.

>> No.5267267

>>5267265
>And Pablo Neruda got a Nobel while approving Stalin.
The Nobel Committee is so embarrassed about giving the Nobel price to a fascism lover, they've been giving the Prize to left anti-authoritarian writers ever since.

>> No.5267269

>>5267265
Out. This isn't even directly related to Borges much less his surface level opinions of politics. Out.

>> No.5267293

>>5267250
>literature doesn't comes out only from other literature, but even from architecture, music, history...

what?

>> No.5267316

>>5267293
All art is influenced by the entire culture and experiences of the artist. Obviously, it can be no other way.

Even the artist who strives to negate this influence is only doing so because of this influence. Genius doesn't just come into being. Imagine a bridge built from one side to the other. Bit by bit it is constructed until one person bridges the gap fully with those last few materials, and ascends to something greater.

>> No.5267332

>>5267316
mind.
blown.
thank you, sir.

>> No.5267337

Considering that 1. this is still 4chan and 2. universality in literature is outadated, this has little chance of suceeding, but I like the quote.
Particularly the comparison with Valéry. It's stunning how alike they can be, and yet it's the first time I read someone mentioning them in the same sentence.


Although I don't know if "metaphysics" is the right word. "Linguistics" seems closer to it. Valéry, for one, cared rather little for metaphysics.

>> No.5268052

>>5267337
I agree with 1. but not with 2.
The conclusion is no doubt right enough. Movements aren't at all likely, consciously or otherwise. They just aren't impossible.

>>5266921
It would have been more accurate to say he has several "spiritual homelands" due to his varied tastes. One foot in building a homeland mythos, like a wild west, and the influences from Europe and the middle east.

>>5267063
>Shakespeare was nothing like the English and English literature, ditto for Cervantes and the Spanish, Hugo and the French, Goethe and the Germans; as if we had chosen them to somehow make up for what we lack
So why not a universalist movement? Too passe, someone says, but there's nothing new under the sun. There never is. Yet it all goes on anyway. What are people going to want to read about in the future?
Well I'm sure the sub-genres will continue to delight all the sub-groups, but I guess a possible movement can only be something that appeals to an even wider audience than teen vampire love, cyborg-tank wars, and techno thrillers and romance for the old folks. Stop worrying about "pomo" and start putting together appealing stories.
Just rambling.

>>5267113
Doesn't matter

>> No.5269411

I have his complete narrative, i'm eager to start reading it.

>> No.5269484

>>5266882
>Does anyone want to talk about this Quixotic idea? I'm not optimistic that anything can come of it, but it's exciting enough to talk/read about. The passage above got me thinking about the possibilities of some movement.
Long drumroll, followed by...
>It has to embrace a universal approach to literature whatever form.
...A fart.

The correct approach would have been to get enthusiastic about the quixotic idea of private metaphysics, not the preening idea of a universal audience, but of course the woman must have her red carpet.

That aside, I dislike universalism. I intend to embody the best peculiarities of my time, place, and heritage, speaking as if only to a local audience, though avoiding twee parochialism: I am an elitist. Universalism produces blandness, the averaging out of all strong emphases.

>> No.5269532

>>5269484
How do you mean private metaphysics, and why can't that be applied universally?
And why not bring your peculiarities to a wider world? discourage blandness, universally.

>> No.5269594

>>5267041
Neruda has the Nobel Prize instead of Borges for political reasons.

Implying the Nobel Prize is relevant anyway. Proust and Céline (or even Cocteau) never received it, while inferior writers like Sully-Prudhomme, Anatole France and Saint-John Perse did - just to take French examples. Even today, Le Clézio was preferred to Kundera or Gracq, which sounds like a terrible joke...

Hope your post was b8

>> No.5269630

>>5267113

Hi, I'm the guy who was labelled 'hopelessly naive' in your thread that time. I don't think anyone thinks it's a good idea for anyone from reddit to get involved (we all agreed they're mostly terrible writers).

>> No.5269712

>>5269630
except Borges is overrated reddit-tier shit
same with Calvino and Kafka and whoever

i enjoy that stuff, but following them isn't going to start a new movement. it's just circlejerking

>> No.5269745

Cortazar > Borges

sage because butterfly thread

>> No.5269830

>>5269712
I never meant anyone should follow them specifically, though their universal influences are as inevitable as they are desirable. Whoever else you like will influence your writing... To assume that the arts aren't anything but circle-jerking (Can we say daisy-chaining now too?) as you so crudely put it, is delusional.

>>5269745
I rarely ever make threads. I average three a year because of your 'tude.

>> No.5270564

>>5269830
everything is circle-jerking in a trivial sense. but the term circle-jerk isn't meaningless, and thinking it is and using that to excuse your circle-jerk is the real delusion.

>arts are all a circlejerk so i can be as banal as i want

people like Borges are talked about again and again and nothing new or critical is ever said of them. no attempt is made to do something new. there is just worship. if that's all your capable of you shouldn't start these threads.

>> No.5270675

>>5270564
Not advocating banality or some derivative junk. I just personally advocated, hinted or nudged at the broad term "universalism." Sorry if that has some connotations I wasn't aware of, but without some wider appeal all future publications are doomed to drown in a sea of genres and sub-genres that will either find or fail to find their niche audience all depending on what corporation wants to spend on promotionals.
I only started with this Borges preface because it got me thinking. The things that influenced him. This isn't worshipfulness.

>no attempt is made to do something new
Like post modernism?

>> No.5271377

>>5266882
I wanna talk about your dimple. U are cute.

>> No.5271380

>>5271377
that's a man, babt

>> No.5271407

>>5271380
I heard that she is a lesbian. She can't be a lesbian if she is a man.

>> No.5271412

>>5271407
mtf, fag

>> No.5271417

>>5271412
even better.

>> No.5271482

So, rather than write in genres you want something generalized?

Some writers like bucking convention, I think Vonnegut was both amused and depressed by being labeled sci-fi.

The closest thing we might have to something being universalistic would be the bible, once upon a time.

Are you railing against fragmentation? Dismissal? Mechanistic pigeonholing?

What would this universal approach consist of?

>> No.5271671

>>5271482
universality can be
1) platitudes
2) trivialities
3) norms

or
4) archetypes
5) structures

or
6) formalisms
7) abstractions

>> No.5271809

Never mind, I figured it out.

'Universal Approach' is code-speak for feminist theology.

Lay it on me baby! Let the good times roll.

>> No.5272289

>>5269745
>Cortazar>Borges

this guy gets it

>> No.5272312

>>5269745
>>5272289

>muh special snowflake hipster victory

He wasn't even half the writer that Borges was, don't kid yourself.

Borges' non-fic and poetry alone is better than all of Cortazar's oeuvre. And his fiction absolutely destroys him.

>> No.5272364

>>5272312
>winning an argument over taste on 4chan
step 1: muh
step 2: adjectives
step 3: ?

>> No.5272742

>>5272364
it's just a way of pointing out a certain intuition

the fact that we sometimes cling or become attached to certain key ideas that support our opinions without a lot of reason (as opposed to the universal intellectual virtue of being open to rebuttals and contrary ideas)

>> No.5272768

>>5272742
what, muh? you're too kind.

>> No.5273309

>>5272768
if i rely on a certain author or concept or idea and someone says "muh [that]" it makes me, if only for a split second, think twice about it. first of all, because it is "mine". second of all, because i assume "[that]" has value.

>> No.5273394

>>5273309
>acknowledging being affected by shortcut comments
You bloody fool...

>> No.5273482

>>5273394
if it didn't have an effect, it wouldn't be used so much and produce so much retaliation

>> No.5275924

bump