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5241332 No.5241332[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

One of the biggest complaints I've seen of gnosticism is that it rejects the material world as inherently evil and their work is to transcend it.

What are the arguments against the material world being called evil?

>> No.5241346

>>5241332
>death is a miracle

>> No.5241390

>>5241346
>implying death is a miracle and not shit

>> No.5241434

>>5241390
You think death is shit? Hahaha we'll see what you say when you've been alive for more than 20 years.

>> No.5241457

People believe in a spiritual world because they want to erase tragedy and pain. But this is an essential part of life and isn't evil. There would be no thought without violence of something forcing us to think and the same goes for any activity.
To call material world evil is to deny life itself, it is a wish to be dead. When you're dead nothing can happen to you after all, you can experience no pain and do no harm.

>> No.5241461

>>5241434
That only holds the notion that death is not shit but a solution to the world being shit. That just changes specifically what is bad.

>> No.5241477

>>5241461
The world is shit. Look around you. Escapism is the rampant thing for a reason.

>> No.5241494

>>5241477
Yes, are you getting to some new point here?

>> No.5241511

>>5241346
>>5241461
>>5241477
>hate towards the world and life
>worship of death
Is gnosticism just a badly disguised nihilism?

>> No.5241513

>>5241494
Just saying that death is indeed a miracle like the other anon mentioned

And don't say kill yourself because I am slowly with alcohol and codeine

>> No.5241524

So what is the belief that embraces balance but doesn't necessarily want to escape from it like Buddhism?

>> No.5241537

So why is Christianity against Gnosticism if Christianity is pro-heaven?

>> No.5241539
File: 594 KB, 674x867, ___Madonna_and_Child____by_ninebreaker.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5241539

>>5241524
Christianity, particularly the Catholic and Orthodox variety.

Christianity teaches that, at the end of time, THIS world will be raised 'from the dead,' and made perfect by a sort of union with Heaven. Then there will be a New Heaven and New Earth, crowned by a New Jerusalem. This current world won't go away, though it will 'pass away,' to use one of Paul's favorite phrases. There will be a rebirth and a rejuvenation of the material plane, and everything will be bright and beautiful in the light of Christ.

Oh, and everybody will get their bodies back, and those bodies will be in the peak of physical health and existence. That's, incidentally, why for a long time Catholicism forbade cremation. They thought a buried intact body was essential to the resurrection of the body, which they do still teach.

>> No.5241543

>>5241524
Why do you need a ready-made belief? It seems like you already have some values to base your own on them. Seriously, do it.

>> No.5241545

>>5241543
*to create your own belief based on your values

>> No.5241548

>>5241524
Tao

>> No.5241554

>>5241524
>>5241543
Just to add, going straight to an already existent belief only breeds organized religion that forgets about its own values by caring too much about everything else.

>> No.5241559

>>5241554
>organized religion that forgets about its own values by caring too much about everything else.
why does it breed that and why must organized religion succumb to that?

>> No.5241564

>>5241539
This is very interesting. Explain this to me more. How does heaven fit into this?

>> No.5241571

>>5241539
>that pic
loving it.

>> No.5241575

>What are the arguments against the material world being called evil?
That evil is a limiting social construct embedded in herd morality.

Also once you transcend this basic instilled fear necessary for the foundation of Judaistic religion, you realize the folly of believing in an omnipotent, distinct guiding entity.

>> No.5241584

>>5241559
I think it's because to train such a huge mass of people in a belief and way of life certain rituals and codes need to be developed. And this often gets out of hand because of hierarchical power relations that appear in an organized religion.

>> No.5241588

>>5241537

Because the material world is not inherently evil, it is just corrupted due to The Fall. Christian eschatology says that there will be a bodily resurrection and that the world will be made anew.

As >>5241539 said, the embracing of the material world is especially apparent in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy in traditions such as the Eucharist.

>> No.5241615

>>5241588
How does heaven fit into this? I thought heaven is somewhere you arrive after death outside of the material realm if you're worthy.

And hell, how does a conscious hell fit into this?

>> No.5241632

>>5241615
>I thought heaven is somewhere you arrive after death outside of the material realm if you're worthy.
Heaven is referenced as being beyond the clouds because Jewish people didn't know that there was such a thing as atmosphere yet.

>> No.5241661

>>5241332
>One of the biggest complaints I've seen of gnosticism is that it rejects the material world as inherently evil and their work is to transcend it.
Does it really do that? I've started looking into it a bit and from what I can tell its just about looking internally for answers and doing whatever you want and feel is right.

>> No.5241681

>>5241632
>>5241588
From the Catechism:

>but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith

How could they exist in the improved material world immediately?

>> No.5241706

>>5241681
Welcome to Christian religion, full of more logical contradictions than Judaism.

>> No.5241716

>>5241706
I'm proving you wrong that that is the christian view

>> No.5241731

>>5241661
It's worth keeping in mind that the term gnosticism does not refer to a single belief system, but one aspect of many belief systems. The common thread of those belief systems being the vilification of everything material.

>>5241681
Hence the importance of bodily resurrection, aka the Jesus incident.

>> No.5241759

So

Gnosticism = hate all material
Christianity = hate all the bad material

>> No.5241760

>>5241716
No you're not because elsewhere in the New Testament they frequently reference the physical existence of Heaven in the clouds and ascensions relating to the heavens as well.

You can't quote the Catechism to prove someone wrong, haha

>> No.5241779

>>5241759
So, religions based on hate.

>> No.5241789

>>5241760
>You can't quote the Catechism to prove someone wrong, haha

Of course you can, you dumbass. That's the established Catholic doctrine written out for all to see. What is in the Catechism is the Catholic view. You can't say something is the Catholic view if the Catholic doctrine is against yu.

>>5241779
>this retard

>> No.5241818

>>5241789
Also, keep in mind that Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) place equal weight on Scripture and Tradition. So the teachings of the Church, in East and West, are every bit as valid as what's contained in the Bible.

>> No.5241842

>>5241789
>>this retard
Don't be so resentful, it was just a small joke. But you have to admit that hate is an element of these religions. There seems to be a lot of talk about evil.

>> No.5241873
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5241873

>> No.5241876

>>5241842
Do you need to having a passionate dislike of something to acknowledge that it is bad for people? I don't think so.

>> No.5241979

>>5241876
But bad for people isn't the same as evil.
>Don't do this, it is bad for you.
>You shouldn't do this, it is evil.
The difference being that first is based on knowing someone's limits, while the second is based on a moral judgment.
(Forget about my mention of hate.)

>> No.5241991

>>5241873
well fuck im sorry demiurge but my body is delicate as fuck, you couldnt have made me more resistant to pain?

>> No.5241998

>>5241979
God exists as an overseer with the intent of leading people to prosperity and has an objective morality on how they can reach it. Saying something is evil in this respect is saying on a larger level that they are bad for you.

>>5241991
>can't you just do things I want

>> No.5242053

>>5241789
The problem with the Catechism is it doesn't tackle the various logical inconsistencies prevalent throughout Christian ideology, Most believers of Christianity don't.

>> No.5242064

>>5242053
It does, however, show the Catholic Doctrine. I think you're expecting a little too much and saying it's a problem.

>> No.5242080

>>5242064
No, I wasn't expecting anything but brainwashing from Catholicism. And I was entirely justified.

Where's the fun in a religion if you can't interpret it into your own view?

>> No.5242085

>>5241998
Interesting, that's a good way to look at it.
But why the need for such God with objective morality and knowledge and power? Isn't a part of life to have weakness? Is this what makes you feel alive? Seems like such God would remove any weakness in the sense of protecting me, but this would only lead me to feeling less alive.

>> No.5242086
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5242086

>>5241998
fuck you i'll become my own god then

>> No.5242099

>>5242086
That's the spirit. Just don't be a resentful God.

>> No.5242111

>>5242085
>But why the need for such God with objective morality and knowledge and power? Isn't a part of life to have weakness? Is this what makes you feel alive? Seems like such God would remove any weakness in the sense of protecting me, but this would only lead me to feeling less alive.
I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough to help you out there, I'm sorry. I suppose this would connect to the Christian view of The Fall and justifications made for it.

>> No.5242117

>>5242086
>average gnostic

>> No.5242189

It's not just gnosticism - Calvinists make a pretty good argument to that end as well.

>> No.5242269

>dragonborn enters the battle
what is your theme

>> No.5242438

>>5241731
>The common thread of those belief systems being the vilification of everything material.
As in there are greater pursuits in life to follow than wasting precious energy on material things? That material things are only here on the material plane and in the grand scheme of things they mean nothing and should not be worshiped as much as they are?

That was my interpenetration so I may be wrong.

>> No.5242445

>>5241332
>What are the arguments against the material world being called evil?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=E8b4xYbEugo