/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5213035]

saw couple of new sun threads, so decided to give it a try. Most of the threads I've been were negative opinions about the book. What do you guys think?

[Anonymous No.5213816]

>>5213035
Favorite scifi/fantasy by far. Just wish the covers weren't so edgy looking, completely different vibe than the book itself

[Anonymous No.5214067]

Overall, disliked it. It is about 900 pages of a bland, uninspired story with lots of Christian and North American mythological imagery and metaphor layered over it. The truly disappointing thing about it is that every character's story is more interesting than Severian's . Piecing together what happened to Dorcas in Shadow was great, but she only gets a handful of pages, and then we're back to ignoring this potentially amazing story of a woman having a son and being dead for years only to come back with no memory of him in favor of Severian doing something completely uninteresting. Figuring out what Jonas is before Severian is great, but we can't have a story about an ancient robot scouring the Earth for the most beautiful woman he's ever seen because he has to go in for repairs while Severian once again goes off to do something completely uninteresting.

It is beautifully written. A lot of people take issue with Wolfe's prose, but I found the archaic, poetic style perfect for the setting. It was also probably the best way for him to get his symbolism across, because otherwise it would have just seemed tedious. Sev carries his sword like Jesus carrying a cross, isn't that neat? Hey, water symbolizes both life and death, that's pretty cool huh? The fact that he at least wrote scenes out in what you'd expect from a Biblical translation made the constant "hey, look, look at my layers" messaging more tolerable. Even enjoyable at some points. There just needed to be an engaging story underneath that, and there wasn't one.

[Anonymous No.5214084]

>>5214067
>>5213035
Also, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one saying bad things about BotNS, because every thread I've seen about it on /lit/ have been filled with extremely short and positive posts like >>5213816

[Anonymous No.5214113]

>>5214067
I agree and disagree. The 3 and 4 (and to some extent, Urth of the New Sun) tend to drag plot wise. Severian becomes a passive protagonist. The original goal of reaching Thrax having been fulfilled, what happens now? Actually, the more I think about it, the more I agree. Severian is truly a blank sort of character, it's the ones around him, Baldanders, Dorcas, etc, that bring life to the story. Even at the end of it all, he's still sort of a stranger to us readers.

[Anonymous No.5214127]

>>5213035
Gene Wolfe's book covers look like something a total World of Warcraft nerd, or something, would pick up and read. Bleh, unappealing.

[Anonymous No.5214140]

Anyone have clues about the various fables in the books? I made a couple connections but am missing a few.

Castle ship and the island of magicians -> minotaur and the labyrinth

Two orphans adopted by wolves -> jungle book, maybe founding of Rome(?)

Rooster wrestling the angel -> ???

two seal hunter brothers -> maybe Cain and Abel

pampas woman and her suitors -> ???

[Anonymous No.5214154]

>>5214127
pic related is the most passable one I've seen, most of the art overplays the whole torturer angle

[Anonymous No.5214186]

>>5214084
In my opinion, the prose, setting, and general layering of the books supersedes the plot.

I approach the series as a character-based work more so than a plot driven genre piece.

Before you say that Severian has no character, consider how effectively the unreliable narrator is used, as well as how effectively almost every other character is fleshed out.

At the very least, acknowledge that Wolfe was trying for something more than pulp scifi here.

[Anonymous No.5214196]

>>5214186
Not sure why that got spaced out so much.

[Anonymous No.5215734]

>>5213035
OP here, finished the first and second book this morning. My God....

>mfw

[Anonymous No.5217282]

>>5215734
thoughts?

[Anonymous No.5217309]

>>5214140

baldanders and talos are frankenstein and his creature

Terminus Est is Excalibur

[Anonymous No.5217405]

>>5217282
going into more deeper elaboration, it was not out right terrible for sure. However, it never had that satisfaction where you beat the hardest boss in the game. Sure there were some, "oh my, this actually happened?" But, Wolf should've saved those moments for the critical points of the book.
Sure man, the universe was interesting and kept me real hook about the guilds, but other guilds were hardly mentioned.

To summarize, disatisfied.

[Anonymous No.5217413]

>>5214127
>literally judging a book by it's cover
lmao

[Anonymous No.5217468]

>>5214186
Folio's story, the three suitors, is about the story contest itself. She just heard 3 tales from three different men. Their stories are the suitors in the story! The suitor that fights is the cock and angle story, the trickster is the sealing brothers story, and the last one is I am loyal to the group of Seventeen's story! Folio was trying to tell us that the Ascian won.

[Anonymous No.5217488]

>>5214113
People tend to miss what is really going on. Its written by someone who is, for the most part, at least till he eats the Autarch, a simpleton. He has little idea what is going on around him. The parts where its clearly high tech, a picture of an astronaut, are put in there to let us know what we are smarter than Severian. The reason why he's blank, why he runs into people randomly, etc, he because HE'S IN A PLAY!! Its basically the Truman Show. The Heriodules, and Severian's past reality self, are trying to shape him into the leader they want for post Urth.

Wolfe knows what he's doing, god damn it.

[Anonymous No.5217511]

>not liking this kick ass cover

And I read the first two New Sun books and didn't enjoy them. I get Wolfe's trying to be "smart" with the genre, but if felt exactly like that - someone trying to be smart rather than someone actually being smart. And that fucking leaf fight...

I know they're not really related but, just saying, Vance's stuff blows Wolfe out the water. The Dying Earth books really are great reads.

[Anonymous No.5217606]

>>5217511
hey boss, can you tell me one of the vance's literature?

[Anonymous No.5217649]

>>5217511
New Sun isn't written by Gene Wolfe... Its written by Severian. Severian is trying to write smart.

[Anonymous No.5217978]

>>5213035
Good stuff even if hard to read at times due to its slow pace and complication though. I'll read it again someday.
Is it just me or Silverberg ripped off the shit out of it in the "Lord Vallentine's" series?

[Anonymous No.5218011]

>>5217978
Gonna have to finish the series someday. Had a high expectation because librariab literally grabbed me and persuaded me to check it out with the enthusiasm that I've never seen.

[Anonymous No.5218032]

>>5218011
Do it man, even if slow at times its worth finishing.

[Anonymous No.5218078]

>>5217488
>HE'S IN A PLAY!!

No.

[Anonymous No.5218084]

>>5217511
>Vance's stuff blows Wolfe out the water
Wait, what? Good lord, who the fuck let these people on this board?

[Anonymous No.5218338]

>>5217405
So wait, did you finish the series or just books 1 and 2 (and thus halfway through)?

The dissatisfaction is real, but read Urth of the New Sun. Wolfe wrote it bc so many readers were unsatisfied with the ending. First half or so of Urth is slow, but oh my does it end strong. I consider it essential even though its not part of the main 4.

[Anonymous No.5218369]

I don't know much about it, but I read a few pages of...whatever it is, Litany of the Long Sun, I think? The prose made it almost unreadable for me. Should I retry it?

[Anonymous No.5218379]

I feel like BotNS occupies a weird space between literature and genre fiction. Like, scifi-ers are put off by the labyrinthine prose and lit types don't bother with something from the scifi/fantasy shelf at the bookstore.

Us glorious /lit/izens being the best of both worlds, of course.

[Anonymous No.5218387]

>>5218338
>OP decides to wrap the book up once and for all by reading the last four.
>"one more push m8."
>mfw

[Anonymous No.5218574]

>>5218379
nah, it's slowly but surely being used to trumpet genre fiction by people insecure of lit snobs IE chabon and jewnaut diaz

I think we're only beginning to see Wolfe used as some sort of sci-f apologia

[Anonymous No.5221040]

>>5218078
The grand point of the novel is we are all actors in the play that is the universe. Dr Talos even calls Severian an actor.

[Anonymous No.5221957]

>>5213035
>Most of the threads I've been were negative opinions about the book.

These people are not intelligent enough to read Wolfe.

[Anonymous No.5221985]

So how many Severians were there in total? 7? 8?

I fucking forget.

[Anonymous No.5221990]

>This thread

It is evident that some of the people didn't read the book.

[Anonymous No.5222051]

>>5217488
>a picture of an astronaut, are put in there to let us know what we are smarter than Severian.

You are referencing this:

"After I had walked at least a league amongthese enigmatic paintings one day, I came upon an old man perched on a high ladder. I wanted to ask my way, but he seemed so absorbed in his work that I hesitated to disturb him.

"The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a desolate landscape. It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a strange, stiff banner. The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of gold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the deathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing more."

Severian could have no frame of reference at the time to infer that that painting was of an astronaut. The society he grew up in had devolved to a medieval state. Also, The moon (Lune) had been terraformed by that time and shone green in the sky. I don't think this scene was intended to portray him as stupid.

[Anonymous No.5222083]

>>5217606

He is best known for his TALES OF THE DYING EARTH stuff, but you could also check out THE DEMON PRINCES and THE LYONESSE TRILOGY for a start.

[Anonymous No.5222088]

>>5217978

http://blog.sfgateway.com/index.php/jack-vance-an-appreciation-by-robert-silverberg/

[Anonymous No.5222099]

>>5218084

From a Gene Wolfe interview:

>LP: How heavy an influence was Jack Vance, and how much did you use The Dying Earth as a conscious template for The Book of the New Sun?

>GW: It was very considerable. I did not try to write an imitation of The Dying Earth. I certainly took that idea from Jack Vance. I had read that years and years before and had been enormously impressed with it. So yeah, he was a very considerable influence. I'm sure that's where I got the basic idea that's behind The Book of the New Sun, the idea of remote antiquity and looming catastrophe.

I don't think anyone "blows Gene Wolfe out of the water" though.

[Anonymous No.5222940]

>>5221985

6 in total. If you count the dream that severian has about the 5 men that resemble each other more than brothers and you count the dreaming severian too that makes 6.

[Anonymous No.5222979]

>>5217488
Keep in mind that the entire thing is coming to us from Severian and he's not necessarily a reliable narrator. I might be wrong, but my feeling was that most, if not all, of the story is supposed to be bullshit, as its the narrator formulating his own creation mythos (which justifies his usurping of the throne etc).

[Anonymous No.5223019]

>>5217511
>>5217511
I love Vance, but Wolfe is a better writer. Vance is probably a better stylist - he's one of the great stylists of SF&F - and he's deeply and colorfully imaginative in a way that Wolfe isn't really. But the thing is that Vance basically writes two kinds of books - cynical humorous picaresque, and slightly nihilistic colonial adventure. Wolfe is a much more varied writer, with command of a number of different styles and much greater range and a much wider number of concerns. He's better with plots and his writing is just more multi-layered than Vance.

[Anonymous No.5223387]

>>5214067
pretty much exactly how i felt. someone recommended the fifth head of cerberus but i haven't picked it up yet.

[Anonymous No.5223447]

>>5217606

Yeah, start with The Dying Earth stories (best read them in chronological order). They're excellently written fantasy/SF shorts that are really enjoyable (the second Cugel collection is also extremely funny in places).

The probably move on to Lyonesse, which is Vance's other top fantasy work. Its structure is a little weird in that there are a lot of individual stories wrapped up in the whole; but Vance's style and imagination are so good that you don't mind too much that it's maybe not the LOTR kind of epic fantasy you might initially expect.

[Anonymous No.5224210]

>>5223387
It's dope but even more cryptic

[Anonymous No.5225012]

>>5213035

You'll see this pop up a lot when discussing Wolfe but you will not get a full appreciation of Wolfe and his works on a single read-through. In order to really understand and appreciate Wolfe you MUST re-read his works.

This puts a lot of people off; and a lot of the criticism of Wolfe is that he's almost too cryptic, too symbolic, and too dense to be considered a great writer. IMO none of these are valid criticisms. Wolfe is one of the most intelligent and meticulous writers to ever live and he expects a lot from his audience. He has stated numerous times that he believes that people who read his work are intelligent people who understand the importance of re-reading and intense examination and dissection of his texts.

When someone tries to approach Wolfe from a casual stand-point, as a reader who would rather engage in 'passive' reading rather than 'active' reading, his work easily comes off as pretentious, boring, and seemingly directionless. These types of readers often become frustrated with his works because they are not spoon-fed his texts themes, ideas, and answers.

Wolfe was a professional engieer for decades before becoming a full-time writer. This is important to understanding how Wolfe works as a writer. A good way to look at Wolfe's work is to view them as a large, complex mechanism--an engine, for example. People can look at an engine and see and understand that it works but in order to truly understand how an engine works you must understand the necessity and the role each particular piece and gear plays in the overall function of the engine as a whole.

Wolfe works this way. You can view his work on base level--appreciated his prose and plot and characters--but in order to truly understand how his texts work, you must look at small and seemingly insignificant 'pieces' of his works.

For example, and this is one of the most brilliant and well-known of Wolfe's style, the beggining of Peace starts with, "The elm tree planted by Eleanor Bold, the judge's daughter, fell last night".

It's not until almost the end of the novel that you discover that Eleanor Bold, who has married and now goes by Eleanor Porter, mentions VERY briefly to Weer (the narrator and main character), that she wants to plant a tree on Weer's grave when he dies. The narrator is a ghost and he is unaware

This is the kind of stuff Wolfe is famous for and it is often one of the main reasons he is such a polarizing figure in the literary world.

I personally think Wolfe is among the best writers of the late-20th and early 21st centuries. Your enjoyment and appreciation may vary.