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/lit/ - Literature

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5208831 No.5208831[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why the fuck would anyone NOT start with the greeks?

More specifically, why the fuck would anyone NOT start with the Republic?

It's like

Metaphysics?
>The Republic
Ethics?
>The Republic
Pol phil?
>The Republic
The human condition?
>The Republic
The philosophy of science?
>The fucking Republic


How come the Republic is such a motherfucking good book?

>> No.5208854

Because Greek culture is the result of thousands of years of mixing between many peoples. Because The Republic is a late dialogue. Because Plato had predecessors who influenced him.

>> No.5208865

I have never read any of the greeks, I understand Zizek and Iam a philosophy major. Fite me irl.

>> No.5208888

>>5208865
>I understand Zizek

Have fun being rejected from all academic circles in 5 years when everyone realizes that Zizek is a bluff.

>> No.5208898

I love Plato, but have not yet read The Republic. I've only read maybe six of his dialogues.

>> No.5208908

>>5208898
>implying you need to read anything but the Fucking Republic ever

>> No.5208910

Thales > Plato

>not starting with Thales

>> No.5208914

>>5208910
MUH WOTAH

>> No.5208916

>>5208910
Thales was basically a drunk who masturbated standing knee-deep in water.

>> No.5208927

Want to understand Wittgenstein?
>The Republic
TFW no GF?
>The Republic
Can't get a grasp on Nietzsche's references?
>Read the Republic son

I am not even joking.

>> No.5208939

Calm down bro. The Republic contains nothing profound.

>> No.5208948
File: 29 KB, 480x414, brasilien.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5208948

>>5208865
muh zizek

>> No.5208955

I just remembered putting off book X holy shit that was like already a month on my backlog

>> No.5208987

Is The Republic one of those books that doesn't show you anything obvious but teaches you a whole damn lot?

Because The Republic was probably the second phil book I read after A Nietzsche Reader and I can penetrate literally any philosophical topic. I've only been studying (self study) philosophy a year but after you listen to Plato's Socrates for a while everything seems so elementary. However, I don't remember anything written in The Republic, I actually lent it out before I finished it. I remember they were asking each other about justice, formation of the best city/nation, what is 'good', okay maybe I do remember the republic.

Gorgias is also really, really good.

>> No.5208997

>>5208987
I can relate. Everything Plato writes sounds so painfully obvious, until you try to construct something like it yourself and realize it's genious.

>> No.5208998

is the republic a hard read`?

>> No.5209023

>>5208998
No, it is incredibly easy to read. It is basically written as a discussion between a group of friends. It flows without you even thinking about it, but if you want to you can spend forever thinking about a single page.

>> No.5209060

>>5208998
as long as you don't use an old translation

>> No.5209067

>>5208831
> Why the fuck would anyone NOT start with the greeks?
Well, for East Asians and Indian subcontinent cultures their own early literary output is more relevant culturally, meanwhile for Persians it would be Zoroastrianism etc.

>> No.5209072

>>5209023
>The Republic
>discussion

>> No.5209078

>>5208831
Why the fuck would anyone NOT start with the Christians?

More specifically, why the fuck would anyone NOT start with the Holy Bible?

It's like

Metaphysics?
>The Holy Bible
Ethics?
>The Holy Bible
Pol phil?
>The Holy Bible
The human condition?
>The Holy Bible
The philosophy of science?
>The friggin Holy Bible


How come the Holy Bible is such a motherfriggin good book?

>> No.5209090

>>5209072
Well, a very one-sided one, I admit.

But still, Socrates is always concerned with explaining and convincing.

>> No.5209095

>>5209078
pls no

>> No.5209113

>>5208854
/thread

>> No.5209123

>>5209078
You start with the context of the Babylonian exile during which the Pentateuch was written.

You start with the Sumerians who are the first culture to emerge in that region.

>> No.5209138

>>5209067
This is true, i am Eastern

Also >>5208831

You could say i started with Hume due to a course of events as i wasnt really in to starting Philosophy at all at the time and gradually got into Humeism and then went on from there

>> No.5209140

>>5209078
>>5209095
Why the fuck would anyone NOT start with the Greeks?

More specifically, why the fuck would anyone NOT start with the Iliad?

It's like

Hot bitches?
>The Iliad
Bloods vs. Crips?
>The Iliad
Niggas gettin blasted?
>The Iliad
Lootin the dead niggas?
>The Iliad
Draggin a nigga through town chained to yo car?
>The fuckin Iliad

How come the Iliad is such a motherfuckin good epic?

>> No.5209163

>>5209140
pls go away >_>

>> No.5209169

>not reading some Hindu scripture that isnt blatantly popular like the Tattvabodha or Panchdasi

>> No.5209201

>>5208910
Thales. Lol. I cannot think of a more pointless endavour.

>> No.5209220

>>5209140
i agree that if you start with the Greeks, you must start with the Iliad.

>> No.5209234

>>5209163
:^)
>>5209220
Thank you, anon. I think Homer, Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides should be the first series for starting with the Greeks. After that, freeform, but tragedies before comedies, Plato before Aristotle, and so on and so on.

>> No.5209238

The part where Glaucon asks Socrates to prove that it is better to be just than unjust by giving him too extremes -- an unjust man who is loved by the public, rules, does what he likes, live to old age; a just man who is despised and killed -- is actually a prophecy of Jesus Christ :^)

>> No.5209268

>>5209238
why wouldn't it first be a prophecy of the death of Socrates

>> No.5209278

>>5208888
>Zizek is a bluff
Explain this.
Why is there so much hate for Zizek I think he is good, he presents good arguments for what his ideas.

>> No.5209286

>>5209278
What? That revolutionary violence will adjust all of our subjective positions in such a way that our everyday lives will be different in a way that we cannot imagine thanks to the liberalism/capitalism horizon.

>> No.5209297

>>5209278
there isn't hate for Zizek. don't fool yourself. he's been rising to the top of intellectual popularity for the last decade. there's only backlash against his recent meme-ification due to the breakout popularity of his second film film.

>> No.5209351

>>5209078
But Christianity takes from Plato heavily, so why would you not start with Plato?

>> No.5209363

>>5209278

I'm a member of a private critical theory forum/circle (highly Frankfurty, so we're suspicious of everyone) and we looked into him a bit because we thought there was something smelly. If you look into his background (some of this requires you to be able to read slovene stuff like our Russian can) and you check out the student journal (mladinska knjiga) you can find a bunch an article on acceleration-ism and parody that looks like an infant version of his style, as well as a paper critical of Marxism (marksizem in njegove nezadovoljnih) and which takes a roughly Burkean tack with the contemporary reformist Slovenian regime. It's written under a name that isn't in the university registry (according to the records department.) If you check for more under the pen-name, you'll find that he was highly involved in his university and pre-university drama and an anglophile club.

>> No.5209364

>>5208854
>Because Greek culture is the result of thousands of years of mixing between many peoples. Because The Republic is a late dialogue. Because Plato had predecessors who influenced him.

[Citation Needed]

>> No.5209378

>>5208831

Antisthenes was superior.

>> No.5209381

>>5209364
[1] common knowledge
[2] i hope you don't believe me, so you start telling others how you understand the Greeks because you read The Republic

>> No.5209382

>>5209363
>we're suspicious of everyone

Except Marx and Freud who you of course accept dogmatically.

Thanks for Political Correctness and multiculturalism by the way, kike.

>> No.5209402

>>5209381
So please link me to this common knowledge.

I've taken to history courses in ancient greece, read quite amounts about them.

What I've learned is that it is extremely unclear of the origins of the Hellens.

That there are some traceable roots back to Rhodos trough Linear-B and then through the migration of the Mycenaean and the Doric people.

But pretty much no more. As of the philosophic ideas of Greece they are pretty much unique, since there are no traces of things like democracy, free men and all the thousands of ideas that the Greeks came up with.

>> No.5209426

>Metaphysics
Better treated by Aristotle
>Ethics
Better treated by Aristotle
>Politics
Better treated by Aristotle
>Human Condition
Better treated by Aristotle
>Philosophy of science
Better treated by Aristotle

Sorry for shitposting I've just been on an Aristotle binge lately and he's fantastic

I think Plato addresses theoretical politics better actually

>> No.5209428

>>5209402
a course in ancient greece is going to be about greece, not the world. it's not necessarily going to start at the beginning.

do you think there were no interactions with other lands through trade?

also democracy is most likely a prehistoric idea and can be seen in primitive societies throughout the world. i only mention that because you say "no traces" instead of no city-level democracy.

>> No.5209432

>>5209402
Sorry Linear-B is traceable to Crete and the Minoan civilization which later became to Mycenaens.

>> No.5209469

>>5209428
I'm still asking with for your sources that are common knowledge.

If I take two courses in ancient greek history with top scholars, and have read about them, their trade, their origin and as well the origin of their ideas.

And most scholars agree the ideas that came from Greece are unique and didn't exist in the East and that is why we call it the birthplace of western civilization.

>democracy is most likely a prehistoric idea and can be seen in primitive societies throughout the world. i only mention that because you say "no traces" instead of no city-level democracy.

Please nigga, the greek notion of democracy is clearly quite something else than your average tribalist sociology study.

And the notion that Socrates would have been inspired by indian ideas or something similar is crazy.

1.The tablets or scrolls or person would have to travel from India to Greek
2. The person would have to learn Ancient Greek
3. He would have to remember all the shit
4. He would have to meet someone important
5. That person would have to remember it
6. And then in turn spread it onwards and it would have to say reach Socrates

It's not like you just sent a mail. Ideas could perhaps take several centuries to spread.

I'm still waiting for your sources.

>> No.5209485

>>5209469
common knowledge doesn't have a specific source. it's common.

i don't think the Greeks were isolated. that doesn't mean they were influenced by places as distant as India. i think the fact you've taken courses on the Greeks shows you already have an inflated sense of them and your focus on them only continues that distorted view.

>> No.5209493

>>5208927
I think you're joking.

>> No.5209530

>>5209485
I think that you have no knowledge about what you are talking about and your lack of arguments and sources stand as proof for that.

>> No.5209546

>>5208831
>>5208831
Why? because philosophy is outdated tripe.

Also, Aristotle was fucking hack boipussi

>> No.5209557

>>5209351
I'm pretty sure King Solomon precedes Plato

>> No.5209569

>>5209530
i don't want to share my knowledge with you, no. you haven't earned that with your attitude.

>> No.5209589

>>5209569
Okay, here I'll give you what I know. All of the greeks studied in Egypt and learned their, but it was the long internalization. The Greek Dark Age that led to their Golden Age and all their Epics. Especially because of the mountaneous regions and small island, which led to an extremly hard governed land which led to independent nation states. That is the leading theory. They learned from other places, and got hold of great many ideas, but basically improved a shit load on everything, so it became new in essence.

Nigger, just get the fuck out from 4chan.

>> No.5209596

>>5209589
i don't understand how this isn't what i said in the first place?

>> No.5209600
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5209600

>western philosophy

but it's all just footnotes to laozi

>> No.5209603

>>5209600
Accurate trip cunt

>> No.5209635

>>5209426
Aristotle is a better presentation of the ideas, but his work is largely a response to Plato and thus requires a reading of Plato to fully understand.

>> No.5210353

>>5208865
>I have never read any of the greeks
>philosophy major

how did you graduate then ?

>> No.5210372
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5210372

>the republic

>> No.5210393

>>5209382
is this a troll

>> No.5210425

>>5209635
This is true.

I think Plato gets a lot of credit because he formalized and addressed a lot of philosophic questions in writing, and accessible writing nevertheless.

>> No.5210428
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5210428

Why would anyone NOT start with common sense?

⇒Metaphysics?
empty talk about untestable things with no real life implications

⇒Ethics?
subjective talk about "muh feelings"

⇒Pol phil?
political SCIENCE

⇒The human condition?
biology, psychology

⇒The philosophy of science?
Science doesn't need philosophy. Science works on facts, not on opinions.

>> No.5210435

>>5209600
actually all of western philosophy are footnotes to Plato.

>> No.5210442

>not starting with the Canaanites

>> No.5210448
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5210448

>>5210428

>> No.5210449

>>5210442
>not starting with cannabis

Just smoke 420 and the deep thoughts will follow. Ultimate philosophy experience.

>> No.5210453

>>5210449
<not shrooms.

>> No.5210458

>>5210448
Can we please stop the fedora shaming? Fedoras are classy and stylish, okay?

>> No.5210461

>>5210428
Why would anyone rage so buttfrustratedly at philosophy? Oh, and you're retarded.

>> No.5210465

>>5210449
word
it's all ying 'n yang in the end

>> No.5210487

>>5210353
most likely by studying in a department that focused on current philosophical problems as they stand in light of modern achievements in philosophy rather than worshiping ancient child molesters.

>> No.5210542

Why the fuck would anyone NOT start with cavemens?!

>> No.5210547
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5210547

>>5210487
⇒modern achievements in philosophy

10/10 joke

>> No.5210584

>>5210353
humanities don't have comprehensive exams. you take enough classes in whatever subtopic interests you and you graduate. there's nothing wrong with this.

>> No.5210588

>>5210584
My school had comps for English majors.

>> No.5210782

>>5210547
Why are you even here?

>> No.5210800

>>5210782
Why is anyone even here, on 4chan? for the lulz

>> No.5210851

>>5210547
>who are russell, wittgenstein, anscombe, heidegger, husserl, merleau-ponty, etc.

>> No.5210856

>>5210584
What piece of shit university did you attend?

>> No.5210888

>>5210856
Every UK university is the same. You choose your own modules. It's easy to avoid greek philosophy, especially at the better Universities that have more module options.

>> No.5210897

>>5210851
None of them achieved anything of value. I couldn't name even one thing they did.

>> No.5211210

>>5210856
Columbia

>> No.5211222

>>5210897
I can't name even one thing you've done.

>> No.5211238

>>5211222
Incredible response.

>> No.5211246

>>5211222
Better close down the board if nobody's allowed to criticise if they've not done anything that you recognise

>> No.5211273

I'm about half way through Book 2 of the Republic. It's honestly pretty good, and I'm glad I started with it for my self-teaching of Philosophy.

Where would I go next?
Meditations?
Descartes?

>> No.5211279

>>5208831
My dad is a philosophy professor and always uses The Republic for his intro course.

>> No.5211285

>>5208865
Please become an hero.

>> No.5211758

>>5210897
Russell developed a philosophical foundation for mathematics.
Wittgenstein developed a basic theory of statements, founded anti-philosophy, and articulated a new account of religious belief.
Anscombe systematized metaethics and revitalized virtue theory, in addition to making major contributions to the theory of action.
Husserl formulated phenomenology and revised the theory of science in light of phenomenology.
Heidegger contributed the insight that the subject-object relationship is not the exclusive means for man to relate to the world and showed the inherent central role of time and linearity in human essence.
Merleau-Ponty elucidated the crucial role of the human body in epistemology and explained why the bounds of that role cannot be made fully specific.

>> No.5211799

>>5208831
I'm reading the Republic right now after having read The Symposium, Phaedo, Crito, and Apology.

It's good, but you come off as a dork who thinks saying "fuck" a lot makes you cool.

>> No.5211847

>>5208831

Plato's Metaphysics is retarded

His ethics, its pretty cool i guess, I give zero fucks about ethics

Political Philosophy? I'll grant Plato's is better than Aristotle's, but mostly it's very tunnel-vision toward Athenian society

the human condition? idk what that is but Plato is not somebody I can relate to, he is a sophist faggot who knows nothing about the human condition

His philosophy of science can't be right becasue his metaphysics is so retarded

still a good book though

>> No.5211858

>>5210428
>I dont read philosophy or any literature whatsoever, yet I have a need to come to a literature board and dismiss both by claiming science makes them useless (btw, I dont know anything concerning science, I just read wiki entries).

>> No.5211885

>>5209402
So let me get this straight

The Greek Origins are unknown and I'm supposed to believe that they offer some sort of great insight into the world?

Whereas the British monarchy traces their lineage from Brutus, a grandson of Aeneas, who was born to Venus and Anchises.

Ummmm.... tell me again why I shouldn't start with the Brits?

>> No.5211919

>>5210428

I must ask, why are you here, in a literature board if you detest philosophy so? They're inserperable. Literate analysis and history has been shaped by a corresponding philosophy. It seems awfully pointless. The histories of science and math have had many ties to philosophy. Even among the most notable historical scientific figures, there's an interest in philosophy. Einstein considered Schopenhauer one of his greatest influences and advocated that scientist studied the philosophy of science. Schrodinger too admired Schoppes. Actually, Scientist all through Europe read and kept even a minor interest in philosophy or philosophic thinking all through the centuries up until the 20th century. Artist of high caliber still too. The history art goes hand-in-hand with philosophy's. What exactly do you hate so much about philosophy, it's relatively harmless. People dont live only by facts, not even scientist. Our personal opinions affect our daily lives and perspective is nevessary and philosophy, if it's anything, is perspective.

>> No.5211966

>>5208831
Why the fuck would anyone NOT start with Infinite Jest?

It's like

Consumerism?
>Infinite jest
Addiction?
>infinite jest
Sports?
>infinite jest
Soverignity?
>infinite jest
Human condition?
>infinite jest

>> No.5211975
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5211975

>>5211847
>very tunnel-vision toward Athenian society

>> No.5211982

Ah yes. I remember when I first read Plato too.

>> No.5212175

>>5211847
>His ethics, its pretty cool i guess, I give zero fucks about ethics
*tips #YOLO*

>> No.5212193

>>5211847

You cannot read what you wrote and feel happy about it. It's incredibly narrow and is just "I don't like it" said with little variance

>> No.5212196

>The Republic

cool fascist manifesto, brah

>> No.5212200

>>5211885

Why wouldn't they offer great insights?

>> No.5212411

>>5208831
ah good old pluto

>> No.5212493

>>5212411
That brings me back a while.

>> No.5212627

>>5211758
Oh wow, it's fucking nothing!

>> No.5212644

>>5212193

i like the republic a lot im just saying you cant talk about it like it's putting forth these brilliant conclusions, it's not

it's not going to teach you truths, he was wrong about so much stuff, doesn't make any less smarter than me or worth reading

>> No.5214391

>>5212627
>i have no argument supporting my prejudices so i'll just use the word fuck
>in my next post i'll claim to have been trolling this whole time

>> No.5214446

So does /lit/ agree with Plato's stance on moral art as set forth in The Republic? If not, why not?

>> No.5214536

>>5214446
No, that's one of the weakest parts of the Republic imo. But I'm an "art for art's sake" type; if I was to engineer a civilization from the ground up like Plato did I'd care less about order and more about encouraging many varied types of artistic expression.

>> No.5215242

I'm convinced. Sent to Kindle.
I presume I can just right in.

>> No.5215250

>>5214391
Are you seriously offended by the word "fucking" on 4chan? Irregardless my statement remains factually true.