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/lit/ - Literature

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5203319 No.5203319 [Reply] [Original]

I just read the first 4 Ender"s Game books in a single sitting.

I've spent little time on /lit/, but wanted to share this moment with someone.

It's such an incredible story, yet I find so few have gone beyond the first book.
I myself have never gotten to the Shadow books - Maybe this time I will.

>> No.5203329

Ender's Game is bullshit power fantasy escapism for nerds with persecution complexes. You should feel bad for reading so much Orson Scott Card.

>> No.5203342

Derivative young adult bullshit.

>> No.5203365

When I travel I read a lot and I find I can focus the best on long train journeys. I read 80-120 pages an hour both in English and in Hungarian, much slower in German. I don't read every day, I usually spend 5-8 days offline, reading about 2-4 hours a day and when I allow myself internet access I spend 1-3 days discovering and aquiring new material and reading reviews and such and reading up on the background of things (that is, of books, movies and music, mostly). I read 3-4 books at a time (two longer and two shorter ones) and listen to Hungarian audiobooks while doing chores. I try to avoid activites that only require short attention span (series, games, social media, meme-based humor, porn, excessional use of social networking, etc) (fun general) and I find it helped an immense amount with my focus, memory, learning abilities and even emotional balance, and though I expected a decay in social abilities I experienced the opposite, I'm handling social situations much smoother than I used to. I now am looking forward to using psychedelics as a tool to discover myself further and hopefully let go of insecurities and my ego and get better in meditation.

>> No.5203405
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5203405

Using the word "projecting" creates a strawman.

No proper critical theorist "projects" an ideology onto a work - they use it to understand things about the text, the social context of the text or to understand the author's personal ideology. Anyone who studies critical theory will be familar with theories/ideas/menifestos/movements from the left and right, including Marxism, Clasical Liberalism, Psychoanalysis, Structuralism, Fascism, Futurism etc.

They can apply any multitude of these theories to understand an author's motives, or to understand certain things a text may take for granted. Most "American Dream" stories would be impossible to understand if you had not grown up knowing about this notion. We apply theory in subtle ways every day.

Also, Bloom doesn't have to read critical theory. He can continue telling us how beautiful the prose of Larkin was, removed from context if he wants, and he'll look like a fool. Larkin was a great poet, but if you read him only for aestheticism, you're getting half the story.

Critical theory doesn't diminish the beauty of a text - it's another stage in understanding it, after aesthetics.

>> No.5203406

>>5203329
>>5203342
>>>/mu/

>>5203365
10/10 post
please continue

>> No.5203424

>>5203406
No, that is /lit/. This is what we do: when you read terrible books we mock you for it. Don't like it? Go start a book club with your high school friends.

>> No.5203482

y'all're faggots
the books are wonderful

>> No.5203607

>>5203365
>I read 80-120 pages an hour
Bullshit.

>> No.5203616

>>5203406
Why did you tell them to go to /mu/? That place is more pleb than ever, they would probably like Ender's Game.

>> No.5203625

>>5203616
I couldn't think of a more insulting place to be redirected...

>> No.5203634

>>5203625
Yeah, that place is like /b/ with occasional discussion about music now. I miss the days when it was as elitist and belligerent as /lit/.

>> No.5203641

>>5203329
Ender's Game is actually a very decent depiction of its subject material: a smart kid learning military tactics and coming to accept and rationalize killing his opponents. Its hardily escapist in nature.

>> No.5203651

>>5203365
>I now am looking forward to using psychedelics as a tool to discover myself further
If this isn't bait it's a terrible idea.

>> No.5203654

>>5203641
It never really paints a nice picture of it either. Ender hated his life.

I think some people have trouble understanding the difference between a story of a child gaining power, and a power fantasy for children.

>> No.5203662

>>5203634
They're still fairly elitist but they have no sense of humor whatsoever. Take, for example, a discussion I once entered on Radiohead.
>I think Hail To the Thief is their worst album

>implying it isn't great and you're not a pleb

>implying you're not a pleb for liking it

>implying it isn't you who are the pleb for not

They also love to circlejerk their shitty hipster sharethreads for lazy jerkoffs too busy navelgazing to find good music themselves, so they download a bunch of bad albums at random and pretend to like it for indie cred.

>> No.5203664

>>5203651

Well, since it has never worked before, maybe this Anon is the first one in history to come out with a positive outcome.

>> No.5203668

>>5203654
Ender sought redemption for committing genocide, and never quite found it. Pretty much the basis for the Mormon church: You have done something awful, and if you spend the rest of your life trying to atone for it, maybe.

>> No.5203675

>>5203641
>oh man, Ender sure is smart, and because of this, people hate him!
>oh man, I'm picked on, probably because I'm smart, just like Ender!
>some day, just like Ender, people will see my value. I'll show 'em, I'll show 'em all!

And Ender never learns to rationalize anything. Mostly because he's a Gary Stu character who beings just as perfect as he ends. Even while he's committing genocide, he thinks he's playing a game, so we have a "badass" mass killer who is still conveniently blameless.

No I take that back. He's able to rationalize kicking the shit out of and killing his bullies because he didn't mean to kill them, and after all, it was all in self-defense, right? Therein lies the nerd power fantasy. "I'm only picked on because I'm so much better than everyone else. If people don't let me be, I'll be forced to destroy them with my awesomeness."

All glory, no real consequences. Totally escapist.

>> No.5203694

>>5203651
>>5203664
Mushrooms saved my life.
i didn't truly know or appreciate sobriety until i had been throughly zonked a few times.
It's not a permanent solution to anything, but they can show you things you never thought possible, open the door, remind you it's there and always has been.

sage cause not /lit/

>> No.5203708

>>5203694
That's like saying hitting yourself in the head with a hammer is a good thing, because it feels so good when you stop.

>> No.5203717

OP here
>>5203675
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Ignoring your faggotry and complete lack of perception, it's obvious you didn't read anything past the first book.

I feel that the first book, though absolutely wonderful in it's own right, does nothing more than set the stage for the pure brilliance of the next 3.

>> No.5203741

I liked Ender's Game partially because Ender was so unrelatable in terms of his intelligence. Even the pretentious kids who had their parents place them in the "Gifted" programs (Fuck you, Brendon, I hope you rot in hell) couldn't relate to him. If they pretended to, anyone with any knowledge of the book could call them a conceited asshat for presuming themselves to be that smart.

>> No.5203745

>>5203717
>it's obvious you didn't read anything past the first book.
This is true because the first book was a piece of escapist trash. Why would I continue to waste my time on it? I seriously am disturbed by people who consider this a great work of fiction. It shows evidence of arrested development and stunted intellectual growth.

I'm sure making a genocidal killer the "spokesman" for the dead race (at their own request which is especially absurd), is really deep stuff though. All the better for purposes of self-pity, right?

Ender, perfect killer, perfect self-pitier, perfect redeemer. Perfect bore is more like it. Unless you like wanking to shit like self-pity and "justified" violence.

>> No.5203750

>>5203741
So Ender was your Jesus. Great. Just as the author intended.

>> No.5203756

>>5203750
Ender was more like if Julius Caesar combined with Shinji Ikari. Alpha as fuck in some respects, but at times a sniveling bitch nigga.

>> No.5203765

>>5203708
Interesting.
Though I think it's more like, you realize that, though no fault of your own, you've always been hitting yourself in the head with a hammer.
And for a brief moment, you're able to step back and see this clearly and question it.
You soon forget and keep hammering away wondering why your head hurts, but now there's this inkling that just maybe you actually might be able to find the cause - Perhaps it's not inevitable - Perhaps one day, you could whatever it is stop.

Don't be afraid of drugs.
You are drugs.

>> No.5203852

>>5203675
>All glory, no real consequences. Totally escapist.

Damn near half the book is him trying to reconcile killing people. Him being told that he actually killed that Spanish guy caused a good two straight chapters of him refusing to do anything and the Captain being forced to bring in his sister to motivate him to continue. He hadn't seen her in like ten years, and instead of some heartfelt reunion, all he got was "Ender, stop acting like a little bitch and get off the damn boat". She wasn't motivating; she basically crushed all of his childhood hopes and fantasies and told him to get over it if he ever expected a future.

I am seriously wondering if you even read the book. Ender was never happy about anything that happened to him, neither did he have much control over his life either. The entire book is just a long chain of events that people manipulate him to fulfill and it devastates him. In the end, its shown to be "worth it" because humanity averts a crisis, but because the protagonist is Ender, we see the suffering of the person that had to be fooled into saving humanity. He was pitted against all of his peers, made to loath his caretakers, forced to manipulate his "friends" in the same way that he hated being manipulated by the military, and he lost precious time with his sister, whom was the only person he ever felt any real connection to.Its a very sad, depressing book, in all honesty, and is only made hopeful in its message that there is time for atonement after your sins.

No real consequences? What do you call complete isolation, genocidal shame and guilt?

What they did to Ender--his family, his "friends", his mentors, the military, even humanity as a collective in thrusting the burden of the war onto him--is disgusting. And he shuts up and takes it, even when he knows its wrong, because there simply is no other option. There is nothing escapist about it. There is a reason its required reading for most military colleges.

>> No.5203862

>>5203852
>self-pity absolves all wrong doing

This is the lesson that Ender's Game teaches people, apparently.

My point still stands.

>> No.5203876

>>5203862
Yeah, you didn't read the book. He goes off into space with the last remaining life form of the alien hive, and dedicates his life in repopulating them so that he can atone for the war.

>> No.5203886

>>5203852
... Well said.

>>5203756
>shinji
Hadn't made the connection but it fits nicely.
Only no Caesar, Shinji preforms perfectly when it's required of him too.

>> No.5203895

>>5203876
I did read the book. It was bullshit. You're defense of it doesn't even address the core of my points.

Not that I expect anything more from someone who enjoys Card.

>> No.5203912

>>5203895
Your core point appears to be that Ender just wallows in self pity. He does early on, but then he comes to accept and rationalize his role, like I said earlier. The book ends with him going off on a voyage and dedicating his life to making up for his actions. Where is the "self-pity absolves all wrong doings"? One of the dialogue scenes even has (its either his sister or the Captain) tell him that self-pity does nothing to bring back the people he killed, nor will it stop the alien threat.

>> No.5204041

>>5203675
>>5203852
>>5203912
Holy fuck this guy is dull.

LOOK, YES, Ender's character is somewhat transparent, and that encourages self-insertion, and it IS pleasurable to insert into somebody who is smart, respected (feared), etc, who is also a semi-outsider like nerds, HOWEVER, the book, for the reason OP's stated, actually uses this insertion to make you experience the moral troubles of somebody with these capacities. You're also forgetting that ENDER IS A FUCKING KID, kids are malleable, his transparency isn't without warrant from the story. As for it being an unrealistic power fantasy, ENDER IS SELECTED FROM A HUGE POOL OF PEOPLE, there is rational justification for his capabilities. SAVANTS EXIST, and the book shows the process that savants have to undergo (focused practice over a long period of time, ideally competitive...)

The book is not a great book. The writing is pedestrian. The characters are not nearly as nuanced as they are in great fiction. However, it's a GOOD book, especially for its intended audience. It does a lot of things well, even if it doesn't do everything amazingly. God, I hate coming on lit sometimes because there's never a threat where somebody doesn't come in and call something garbage to make themselves feel big.

>> No.5204075

>>5204041
I never felt like I wanted to be or was even intended to insert as Ender in the book. I think people are looking into his intelligence a bit too much and are drawing from the connection that most self-inserts are very intelligent that then Ender is intended in some way as being another one. All I else I can say on this is that I would hate to be Ender and never inserted as him.

Is he a rather simple character? Yes, they all are, but that is what makes the book good. It is telling a simply story, with simple characters, with simply prose. Holy shit, somebody call Bloom.

>> No.5204093

>>5203319
I read all 4 when I was like 12 or 13 so therefore you must be 12 or 13

underaged b& detected.

>> No.5204123

>>5204041
I also LIKE to use CAPITAL letters for EMPHASIS

Ender's GAME is a BAD book that ENCOURAGES MANCHILDREN to STAY in their PATHETIC BUBBLE OF NOSTOLGIA and never GROW UP with its SIMPLE PROSE, numerous CLICHES, boring PLOT, and ATROCIOUS DIALOGUE

READ BETTER BOOKS

>> No.5204137

>>5204041
I'ma assume that this is supposed to be a response to the guy from the just first quoted post and not the latter two as they're totally different people.

>> No.5204149

>>5204093
>I read all 4 when I was like 12 or 13
me too
I also read them again later in life and appreciated them more than I ever did then.

>> No.5204151

>>5204123

YOU ARE ONLY EMULATING GREATNESS, NOT BECOMING IT.

>> No.5204155
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5204155

>>5204123
holy shit is this guy for real?
stay mad faggot

>> No.5204252

>>5203852
>>5203852
Good posts. You're fighting God's war

>> No.5204594

>>5203912
>>5204041
It's a fun book, and I do think it lets Ender wrestle with his actions to some extent, but only within fundamentally fascist framework. The dilemma is not morally complex, because as you both acknowledge: Ender really has no choice. He has to kill the aliens. There is no serious alternative provided, and no way for the book to end with him not deciding (intentionally or not) on genocide.

Disclaimer: I've only read the first book, but it was a fun, stupid action novel and I might burn through the rest if I'm ever staying with a friend who owns them.

>> No.5204614

>>5204594

Their praxis is limited by their market concerns. They own their own means of production, produce commodities, and sell commodities. They certainly aren't exploiting bourgeois, but their interests will not in all cases because they cannot align with those that live by the sale of their labor power.

They obviously have a direct interest in driving up wages. Yet, they also have an interest in competing on the market, limiting competing production, enforcing nationalist policy that goes against the interests of the proletariat.

Their interests must tend toward reformist policy, and it is only to that extent that they are reliable.

>> No.5204615

yes

>> No.5204657

>>5203912
>Your core point appears to be that Ender just wallows in self pity.
No, my core point is that Ender is a violent psychopath, but comes across as sympathetic because he wallows in self-pity.

>He does early on, but then he comes to accept and rationalize his role, like I said earlier.
The only rationalization he has is that he must kill, therefore it's ok. And besides, rationalization makes it worse, because it suggests disproportionate violence is acceptable, as long as you can justify it to yourself.

>The book ends with him going off on a voyage and dedicating his life to making up for his actions.
Ender Christ Superstar, do you believe what you say you are?

Where is the "self-pity absolves all wrong doings"?
It's in the subtext of the book. Read between the lines.

>One of the dialogue scenes even has (its either his sister or the Captain) tell him that self-pity does nothing to bring back the people he killed, nor will it stop the alien threat.
Self-pity about self-pity makes the whole thing more repugnant, not less.


Again, this book is about giving nerds the feeling that they're powerful, and that using that power is justified, because lesser beings refuse to give them a choice. It's an unrealistic escapist power fantasy for nerdy kids that get picked on.

>> No.5204672

>>5203319
are you 12 years old? why would you do that?

>> No.5204685

>>5204657
lel he's still trying

>> No.5204699

>>5204657

Looks like anon has something personal against Ender's Game.

Are you /lit/'s equivalent of /v/'s Barneyfag anon? The one who shitposts all over that board and claims that he hates ponies because he was forced to watch Barney the Dinosaur by some dickish teenagers?

>> No.5204702

>>5204699
That anon was agreeing, possibly sarcastically, that your solution to his problem was an appropriate one.

Subtlety really isn't your thing, is it?

>> No.5204715

>>5204702

Not especially.