How do I get into feminism, /lit/?

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Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:25:35 2014 No.5148251 [Reply] [Original]

How do I get into feminism, /lit/?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:27:58 2014 No.5148257 Avoid anything which uses feminism as a marketing technique. Instead, go to respectable writers and philosophers who deal with rights, gender, etc.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:29:25 2014 No.5148260 why would you want to fill your brain with shit?

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:35:14 2014 No.5148272

>>5148260
Not op but feminism isn't shit. If you think that women shouldn't have equal rights then you're either a troll or an idiot. If you're talking about feminism to be the social justice warrior type who pick apart almost everything and reform them to their own ideas then yes, they're full of shit but there's a difference.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:36:27 2014 No.5148273

>>5148257
>Avoid anything which uses feminism as a marketing technique
This is very important

If you are serious OP, I would recommend reading The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir. It's a thoughtful analysis rather than the silly shit many feminists espouse these days.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:37:47 2014 No.5148276 LAURIE PENNY.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:42:58 2014 No.5148283

>>5148257
In my country EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN on all sides of the spectrum is a self-proclaimed feminist. It has reached the point where you hear arguments like "no!! my neoliberal anti-tax policies are MORE feminist than your crippling commie tax policies that inhibits women!". There are even social conservatives who argue enforced gender roles is "true feminism".

If you want solid proof of bourgeois appropriation, this is probably it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:45:51 2014 No.5148287 Some classics: de Beauvoir, The Second Sex Firestone, The Dialectic of Sex Greer, The Female Eunuch Millet, Sexual Politics

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:47:45 2014 No.5148291 >>5148283 You sound German? Anyway, each successful movement is at some point appropriated by its enemies - I've seen coal power plant owners argue for coal power since it doesn't rely on rare earths and is therefore "green".

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:51:53 2014 No.5148292 >>5148272 women have equal rights.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:54:54 2014 No.5148295

⇒How do I get into feminism, /lit/?

Accept the fact that women and men should have the same rights. Congratulations, now you're a feminist.

And avoid all that philosophy garbage. It's loaded with unrelated opinions, pseudo-intellectual empty buzzwords and endless repetition of obvious trivialities, just like all other philosophy too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:55:01 2014 No.5148296 >>5148283 Is "bourgeois appropriation" a new meme. Were early feminists all proletariat. Is it wrong that paying attention to feminist ideas is now more mainstream?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:57:31 2014 No.5148297 >>5148295 Avoid reading this post, it's loaded with etc.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:58:05 2014 No.5148298 File: 6 KB, 165x115, 509.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] If feminism means "men and women should have the same rights" then wouldn't it be better to rename it genderism.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:59:05 2014 No.5148301 >>5148295 >>5148272 >Implying feminists are egalitarian

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 06:59:12 2014 No.5148303 >>5148298 Too bad nobody gives a shit about your private autism language.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:00:48 2014 No.5148309

>>5148296
>Is it wrong that paying attention to feminist ideas is now more mainstream?

The idea is that now virtually everyone will pay lip-service to feminism, but just as a way to further their interest. It has become generalized posturing. So it's appropriation because people who absolutely don't further the cause of feminism will pretend to be feminists so as to cash on the popularity of that movement.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:02:03 2014 No.5148312

>>5148292
In the west and only in terms of the law. However there are issues like the pay gap, media portrayal of gender etc. Now in my opinion issues like this aren't as simple has "men did it". It comes about by human psychology and genetic differences in gender. So I think a lot of feminists have it wrong but I still think these issues should be thought about (not just focusing on critical theory).

>>5148301
I think the smarter ones are.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:03:11 2014 No.5148316 >>5148296 Well, yeah. "Socialism" has already been reduced to "welfare capitalism".

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:03:35 2014 No.5148319

>>5148296

I think what Anon is getting at is that feminism is a total non-sequitur in that situation, but it's gotten to the point where you constantly have to contextualize the relative feministicity of your ideas lest someone else claim the high ground.

It's taking something which is supposed to be elevating the status of women (especially helpful for women of the lower classes), and instead vapidly using the terminology to get yourself the vote points to continue the status quo while lining their pockets.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:05:22 2014 No.5148325 >>5148312 First-wave feminists and some second-wave feminists were egalitarian. Modern feminists are not. Feminism is no longer about equal rights. SJWs and feminism are all about hypocrisy and lies, and they're too stupid to realize it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:07:34 2014 No.5148332 >>5148325 Well not all are like that but I agree.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:10:28 2014 No.5148338 >>5148332 They're either like that or they're too stupid to know the difference between feminism and egalitarianism.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:11:23 2014 No.5148344

>>5148325

im so tired of hearing this over and over

its just as much an overgeneralization as the overgeneralization its intended to clarify

the fact is there have always been some feminists of 3 major kinds, feminists who preach equality but advocate unequal policies, feminists who preach equality and advocate equal polices, and feminists who don't preach equality

and they have existed in every wave of feminism

some of the gnarliest "men are not human" "men should be castrated more often" "we will eventually live without men" feminists were writing in the 1st and 2nd waves of feminism. Feminism is not some genius idea that got popular and got bastardized, its discussion has been valuable but very flawed from the beginning

this meme that 1st and 2nd wave feminists were "the real ones", and that the 3rd wave contains all the contamination, appeals to irrational nostalgia born of discontent in the present

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:17:00 2014 No.5148355 >>5148251 Read Marx, Freud, De Beauvoir and Adorno to begin with.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:19:28 2014 No.5148362 >>5148298 Having same rights =/= being equal The former is a merely political situation, equality requires cultural change.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:20:05 2014 No.5148364

>>5148251
>How do I get into feminism, /lit/?
1. Assume women are victims
2. Assume men are to blame for women being victims
3. Never, NEVER change the two aforementioned dogmas
4. Start reading the Western canon

Soon enough, you'll start uncovering patriarchal themes in books like the Three Musketeers and Sherlock Holmes. Good job, you're a feminist!

Oh, and don't forget to watch the new BBC series and comment about how hawt Cumberbatch is and how you'd totally bone him, while in the same breath hating men for objecitfying women.

>>5148303
>Private autism language
His argument makes sense and you know it. We wouldn't want to call humanism "negroism". Feminism is the belief that only one gender is the victim of gender equality, and that by only and exclusively solving the problem of women, gender equality can be achieved.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:20:45 2014 No.5148366 >>5148362 the question then becomes, do we want equality? or maybe before that, we should answer what is equality?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:21:36 2014 No.5148370 >>5148312 >like the pay gap Wasn't the data proven to be unreliable?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:22:04 2014 No.5148371 File: 333 KB, 1600x2812, 1390277654373.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Being Jewish helps.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:23:17 2014 No.5148372

>>5148344
This.
It's happening with everything nowadays, people are strawmanning every movement to condescend it into oblivion.
Atheism is now ''LOL LE TIPPS FEDORA!''
Feminism is now ''LE TUMBLR!!!11!11 MEN ARE MONSTERS!1! LELELEL!!!''
Taking the dumbest people in a movement and making them the representation of the entire system of ideas and morals attached to the movement is as idiotic as you claim the movement is, and nothing will ever get done that way, because every brilliant ideology has morons supporting it for the wrong reasons.

When it comes down to it, women are still being portrayed as sex objects rather than beings of intellectual merrit. You have a pretty face? Good tits? You've got a job sustaining idiots' sexual needs.
The world is still majorly male dominated, and catered to men's desires. Trying to raise awareness of this and attempting to break the current social paradigm is fine. To take a couple of radicalists and portray them as the sole embodiment of feminism is absolutely prepostrous.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:26:45 2014 No.5148386 Those dumbest people as you put it are the majority of the fucking "movement".

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:28:01 2014 No.5148388 >>5148371 It just shows how enlightened and progressive they are.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:28:25 2014 No.5148389

>>5148370
Not that I've heard. Most of the pay unequality can be accounted for by the fact women have trouble having children after 30 (for both biological and social reasons) which means those who wants children often have them early, which in turns puts a drag on their career.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:29:19 2014 No.5148391 >>5148273 >women = men lel

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:30:36 2014 No.5148395 >>5148295 Stop triggering me cislord.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:32:10 2014 No.5148404 Is essentialism compatible with feminism?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:33:34 2014 No.5148407 >>5148371 It's funny how we can't help being at the edge of everything. It's like we're the driving force of normalfag civilization.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:44:59 2014 No.5148431

The tendency of high IQ, low conscientiousness people is to revolt against the culture they grow up with.

Marxism and Anarchism were effectively a revolt against the values of 19th century Bourgeois liberal Jewish culture.

Think how Ayn Rand grew up in Communist Russia.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:47:57 2014 No.5148437 >>5148431 Couldn't there be a positive correlation between IQ and conscientiousness?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:48:24 2014 No.5148438 >>5148251 Watch TV and movies, and browse Tumblr. Lots of well-funded rebellion against the system out there.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:50:07 2014 No.5148443 >>5148251 the female eunuch

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:54:26 2014 No.5148457

>>5148437
Genghis Khan had hundreds of children and thousands of grandchildren.
Consider Louis XIV's mistresses and King Solomon's harem.
If this is evolutionary success, then conscientiousness is an impediment. If what you say is true, then intelligence is also an impediment, which would turn the ascent of man into water running uphill.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:54:28 2014 No.5148458

>>5148389
There were studies - several ones - that exposed that data used to talk about wage gap was faulty because it was actually a report of men and women working different positions, not the same ones. as if, more women had a lower position than men, but they still put the numbers one next to the other.
that's why you hardly ever about it anymore, tumblrinas now don't say that women make more, but that they're forever incapacitated from getting better paying jobs because the patriarchy made them play with dolls as kids.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 07:58:51 2014 No.5148467 >>5148407 >>5148407 >we can't help being at the edge of everything like palestine

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:01:23 2014 No.5148471

>>5148458
I should have been more precise in my comments. For the same job women now get roughly as much as men, but they are least likely on average do land a top job precisely because of the burden of having kids. The average female pay is less than the average male pay (for the same age class in the same country) because women will be more likely to have part-time or precarious jobs, not because women are paid less for the same job.

In itself that's still a situation worth discussing, all the more so than men are increasingly wanting to take a greater part in their kid's education.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:02:44 2014 No.5148473 >>5148467 Or your mom. But yes, that's a good example. Israel is now one of the most advanced enforcer of Western imperialistic tactics. Next time we'll be better at being white than Whites.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:13:08 2014 No.5148491 >>5148457 Talking again about correlations, there are lower levels of procreation amongst high IQ peoples and higher levels of procreation amongst low IQ people.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:21:29 2014 No.5148512

>>5148471
that's not worth discussing. it's simply an option they have. having kids will take away from work, if you can't do the work you don't get the job it is not a problem. women feel guilty when they they don't think they spend enough time with their kids. It's why the divorce rate for stay at home husband's is astronomical.

These are personal choices no broad social movement will help with them. You swallowed that make the personal political shit whole

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:37:19 2014 No.5148560

>>5148512
>You swallowed that make the personal political shit whole

I swallowed nothing and I don't see when the personal hasn't been political but nevermind.

Do you think
>women feel guilty when they they don't think they spend enough time with their kids. It's why the divorce rate for stay at home husband's is astronomical.

is really not worth discussing ? I'm talking about how education gets sidelined in favor of career or how father who want to spend time wth their kids end up fucked so often.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:45:48 2014 No.5148583 I need feminism because without it I could have never learned the _precise_ reason that women are so worthless.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:48:16 2014 No.5148591

>>5148560
there is nothing to discuss, each couple will have to work that out. that doesn't justify a whole movement.

politics has never been as personal as it has been since late second wave feminism, that was one of their mantra. now everything that doesn't go along feminist lines is an affront, a war on women.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:49:23 2014 No.5148595 >>5148583 oh now that might be a little to harsh.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:51:02 2014 No.5148603

>>5148491
This can only be a modern trend, otherwise increase of intelligence from the ape level would have been impossible.
I blame feminism. Just look at the East Asians ever since western influence put paid to arranged marriages. They seem to have forgotten how to seduce; this lack of animal instinct is typical of humanity, and this decrease of sexual instinct is specifically typical of urban eurasian civilizations. We relied on cultural constructs in place of this instinct, as only humans can do, and that crutch has been kicked out from under us.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 08:51:50 2014 No.5148609 >>5148312 >media portrayal of gender note that this isn't a real issue. if you're worried about "media portrayal", turn the fucking media off and raise your children better, it's not an authority on your life.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:00:24 2014 No.5148632 >>5148609 you can't turn the media off unless you live in a hut in the woods

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:10:39 2014 No.5148655 >>5148632 If the media affects you that much then you have bigger issues.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Thu Jul 17 09:36:05 2014 No.5148703 File: 49 KB, 339x500, De Beauvoir - The Second Sex.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:39:29 2014 No.5148709 >>5148251 http://www.amazon.com/Feminist-Thought-More-Comprehensive-Introduction/dp/0813348412 I used this when I was an undergrad.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:39:41 2014 No.5148710 >>5148272 It is shit because it degrades men. Any man eating that shit up doesn't deserve any respect, at least from me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:42:28 2014 No.5148714 >>5148703 Oh, please. The Second Sex doesn't empower women, it destroys them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:46:45 2014 No.5148719 >>5148251 Equality means fuck all you moron, stop being stupid.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:47:47 2014 No.5148721 >>5148283 in my country the feminism want to add a male only tax, becuase guys earn more

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:49:08 2014 No.5148724 >>5148632 >you can't turn the media off unless you live in a hut in the woods Spend the extra money and get a tv with an off button.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:50:26 2014 No.5148726

>>5148272
>Feminism isn't shit
>Crusades for equal rights by demanding to be allowed to be wage slaves like their husbands

Feminists are, at best, well meaning retards, and have always been actively harmful to the progressive movements they attach themselves to.

Women were given equal rights in the October Revolution and it didn't require crusading. All modern feminism has done is drastically increase the umber of people working with no change in real wages despite drastic jumps in output.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 09:50:33 2014 No.5148728 File: 43 KB, 590x241, 657655443.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5148251

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Thu Jul 17 09:51:16 2014 No.5148731 >>5148714 How's that? >>5148719 Equality under the law. Fairness.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:00:33 2014 No.5148752 >>5148724 It's bizarre how people talk about The Media as if it is one box in the corner of the room

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:08:13 2014 No.5148769 >>5148752 It's entertainment. Don't like it? Don't watch it or read it. Find some other way to entertain yourself.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:16:00 2014 No.5148796 >>5148731 We are equal under the law.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:25:17 2014 No.5148840 >>5148370 Pay gap as a function of gender-based discrimination just doesn't exist, and the fact that it is bullet point number one on every "reasonable" feminist's bitch list is a tad discrediting.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:27:05 2014 No.5148853 >>5148731 Why are feminists trying to push women into STEM, programming etc. then?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:28:09 2014 No.5148855 File: 212 KB, 609x601, 87654567898765412.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5148731

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:29:53 2014 No.5148863

>>5148752
it's certainly not the air you fucking breathe like you're trying to imply. don't like adverts? ignore them. don't like magazine covers? don't buy them.

you can look at something and still have enough agency to think "this has nothing to do with me or my body." not a huge fucking deal. "b-but other people will expect me to be model thin because movies and TV!!!" really? how do you know what everybody else expects from you? you aren't omniscient. your agency is still in tact. this "media portrayal" argument is horseshit and dehumanizes people as if they are just zombies who mimic everything media tells them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:30:24 2014 No.5148866 >>>/b/557116167 It´s quietly happening. [bypass code:2]

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:34:51 2014 No.5148882 >>5148714 Maybe you should be more elaborate. Beauvoir indeed wanted to destroy the idea of woman. She argued against 'women culture' IIRC.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:37:47 2014 No.5148890

>see feminist zine at local bar/hangout
>decide to pick one up to support local writers and educate myself on feminism
>expecting original works that highlight the role of women and draw attention to certain inequalities
>not really any creative writing, just short little anecdotal memoirs or opinions, none of which really express anything other than manifesto
>zine is filled with stuff like "to me feminism is about equality of all people regardless of race, gender, creed, etc."
>meanwhile art is plastered all around the page drawing attention to white males almost exclusively, with passive aggressive captions like "The demand is for the WHITE MAN!"
I've become convinced that Western feminism exists to prove some kind of point primarily, rather than genuinely focusing on equality. It's not enough to achieve social equality, there needs to be some form of reprimands from this fabricated bogey white male patriarchy. As long as feminist's seek justice from a group that practically no longer exists (in the sense that they see it) they'll never reach true equality.

Of course I see this more as my fault for living next to a liberal arts college.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:49:04 2014 No.5148928 >>5148890 >>5148890 Not really. It's your fault that you weren't trying to correct their mistakes.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 10:49:47 2014 No.5148930 >>5148371 ...Why is Sally Fox on there twice?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:10:36 2014 No.5148995 >>5148283 are you swedish?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:17:31 2014 No.5149010 >>5148251 easy mode: search bell hooks on youtube

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:26:34 2014 No.5149028

>>5148251
Andrea Dworkin, unless you're a pussy.

If you can't handle Andrea, just fucking stick to making rape jokes and scratching your nuts in public and being in a frat because anything else is a compromise and compromises are exactly what the patriarchy wants.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:27:21 2014 No.5149031

>>5148726
Laughed harder than I ought to have at "well meaning retards"
Other than that you're spot on, the feminist movement isn't really a front, it's an attempt by women to become more like men. There exists equal legal protection for men and women, the baseline is covered. Women and men have inborn dispositions, but women won't hear that shit.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:31:17 2014 No.5149038 >>5148855 Source? I agree with a few points but it assumes too much

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:41:25 2014 No.5149060

>>5148890
>I've become convinced that Western feminism exists to prove some kind of point primarily, rather than genuinely focusing on equality.

Feminism is the invention of Think Tanks and philanthropic organizations as a project of social engineering. It has many purposes: 1. getting women in the workforce (already fulfilled), 2. destabilizing families/marriages (work in progress), 3. militarize women against men and, as a reaction, men against women, so that bonding between men are women are less, resulting in atomized, jaded, jilted, demoralized people "fuck this gay earth", etc.

There are NO grassroots movements in politics. ALL political movements are created with funding and usually have some philosopher king guiding them. Feminism is mostly the creation of wealthy men, that's the irony.

Feminism is just social engineering, like pop music and TV, it's no different.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:43:15 2014 No.5149066 >>5149038 unabomber manifesto. i loved that shit when i was 17, but now have a very different understanding of radical leftism that largely invalidates what he's saying.

>>	Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 11:44:17 2014 No.5149070 The Second Sex

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:47:23 2014 No.5149078

>>5149060
uhh, i dunno what you're talking about. the feminism i'm reading is anticapitalist and only hates the family unit insofar as it continues to serve as a means of producing and educating workers for the capitalist machine. they realize that nothing will be solved by their entry into the workforce, but simultaneously deal with the fact that people need to make a living.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:47:51 2014 No.5149080 >>5148251 >feminism you mean a group of angry individuals, trying to blame everything that is wrong with their lives on an imaginary group, which is branded as being inherently evil? just similar to /pol/, which is very funny in my opinion.

Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 11:49:06 2014 No.5149082

>>5148298
Feminism as a term has been established through use starting in the 1830's with Charles Fourier. Nowadays the general distinction between feminism and people who claim to want gender equality but not be feminists, is that feminists say that there is heavy socialized and institutionalized sexism, whereas few people who aren't feminists would agree with that (except for MRA's, I suppose).

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:50:31 2014 No.5149086

>>5148731
>equality under the law
but people in this very thread said that legal equality can't be the target:
>>5148362
>>5148312
you guys need to make up your mind on what you want. this is one of the biggest issues in your movement: you can barely come to an agreement on anything. I know that's a problem with the whole left spectrum of politics but shit this isn't even funny.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:51:16 2014 No.5149087

>>5149078
>anticapitalist

There are "anticapitalist" Think Tanks and philanthropic organizations.
Capitalism is mostly just a buzzword (look up its origin). The war between Capitalism and Communism has never taken place except in indoctrinated people's heads.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:53:16 2014 No.5149093 >>5149087 are you saying that the current economic system is reality such that it is impossible and useless to imagine an alternative?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:56:29 2014 No.5149100 >>5149087 my_god_pure_ideology.jpg

>>	o Thu Jul 17 11:58:16 2014 No.5149103 >>5148251 Be a decent human being and pay no attention to whatever the fuck's happening in America and/or tumblr.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 11:58:49 2014 No.5149105

>>5148863
That's another big issue with feminism.
Women don't know what they want because they're brainwashed. They can't tell what's good for them. Except some women that somehow know better... Honestly when you think about it it almost sounds like conspiracy theory.
>there's this big thing everyone's victim of and most people don't even REALIZE it. i do though. i'm still a victim but I uncovered the plot everyone else was too stupid to notice. I shall now proceed to be unwarrantingly snarky on the internet.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:01:43 2014 No.5149109

>>5149093
There's a variety of reason why imagining "alternative economic systems" is totally useless and even dangerous. If you try and do this you mostly open yourself up to becoming the "useful idiot" of some movement funded behind the scene by billionaires.

There really isn't that much difference between so-called Capitalism and so-called Communism. In Capitalism you have a few gigantic corporations headed by elite families ruling things, and in Communism you have ONE gigantic corporation headed by elite families running things. What's the difference? People say things like, "Communism is less efficient than Capitalism" and shit, but not really; it's always a group of statisticians defining what classifies as "efficient" and adding up the numbers who say those kinds of things, so it's useless. I think the main difference between Capitalism and Communism I can see is that in the former people are fed more illusions of freedom, whereas in the latter they are more openly dominated. I'd say Capitalism is a little bet less pernicious than Communism; Communism is really just a more evolved stage of Capitalism, there isn't any conflict between them really.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:01:56 2014 No.5149111 >>5149060 >2. destabilizing families/marriages (work in progress), If only.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:04:05 2014 No.5149115 >>5149109 What political position would you suggest then, considering the present conditions you were talking about?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:05:06 2014 No.5149118 >>5148296 >Is it wrong that paying attention to feminist ideas is now more mainstream? yes

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:05:21 2014 No.5149120

>>5149105
if elliot rodgers is any indication, men don't exactly know what women want either.

people think that they want to drink until they black out or eat fast food or smoke cigarettes or, if you're like me, jack off until your dick is a limp, drained mockery of itself.

It just means we're incapable of processing information on a larger scale without someone giving us a framework we can use to understand the meaning and consequences of our actions.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:05:32 2014 No.5149121 >>5149109 >thinks Communism is statism or social democracy well... Cold War propaganda has certainly worked for you.. both the west and the soviet terrorists indirectly coordinated their efforts to strip communism of its original definition.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:07:04 2014 No.5149125 >>5149115 imho, gas the kikes, race war now

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:09:16 2014 No.5149129

>>5149121
I think Communism is a totalitarian state, yeah. Are you a stateless Communist or something? You do know that Karl Marx was writing base propaganda and little more, right? That he didn't actually care about humanity and just wanted to see bloodshed and the murder of kings, right?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:10:28 2014 No.5149132 >>5149120 >people think that they want >think Bad consequences to one's desires don't mean that one doesn't want to do the thing.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:11:09 2014 No.5149133 [DELETED]

>>5149109
makes sense, but i'll take a communism that at least guarantees everyone livable conditions and at least tries not to incentivize the mistreatment of minorities.

it seems like you're very concerned with having some kind of determination or agency on a national level, but I don't see how that exactly maps on to hating feminism. is the only world where we will have freedom one where women are subordinate to men?

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:12:01 2014 No.5149136

>>5149115
I suggest becoming a monk and abandoning this world as a lost cause. Love your neighbour, do what you can for others, be humble, etc. I think anybody that tries to "change the world" is going to be corrupted by the world immediately, unless he is a veritable saint and is somehow free of all corruption. More likely than not though, as soon as any political movement you start gains traction you will be so overwhelmed with pride and the love of fame/glory that you'll be bribed by the political masters into twisting the movement to their ends.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:12:16 2014 No.5149137

>>5149109
makes sense, but i'll live under rule that at least guarantees everyone livable conditions and at least tries not to incentivize the mistreatment of minorities.

it seems like you're very concerned with having some kind of determination or agency on a national level, but I don't see how that exactly maps on to hating feminism. is the only world where we will have freedom one where women are subordinate to men?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:14:24 2014 No.5149141 >>5149129 no, I wasn't aware of that. thanks for clearing it up for me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:16:01 2014 No.5149147 >>5149082 There exists, and let me tell you it has existed for awhile, a term used to describe equal rights for all. That term is Egalitarianism.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:18:26 2014 No.5149151

>>5149136
but to believe that the world is fundamentally broken and that revolution is not possible is also ideological and allows the current ruling class to continue undisturbed. It's not possible to abdicate your responsibilities if you are ill or have to support children and are in poverty.

it's a vaguely martyr-like sentiment that is only accessible to those with a certain amount of resources and knowledge.

you get to choose to give up. other people don't.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:18:38 2014 No.5149153

>>5149136
cont.

I'm not sure though. Maybe there is merit in political movements in circumstances. I honestly don't know.

>>5149133
heh mate, you have a naive view of things

What you need to understand about Communists is that they are divided into the Inner Party of Machiavellian sociopaths and the Outer Party of useful idiot idealist utopians. You are one of the useful idiots mate. The hardcore Communists who wield power in Communism look down on you as a pawn to be manipulated. The goal of Communism is not to benefit humanity in any way really, it's just power. That's all they care about. They feed poor disenfranchised "minorities" utopian visions of a new society in order to "bolshevize them". They say, "hey, look at the evil in the world around you! Bad, huh? Well, did you know that this is all the fault of [Capitalism, Bourgeoisie, insert buzzword]! Well we have a plan to get rid of all of that!" They sell people The Kingdom of Heaven but all they want really is power. They don't give a shit about "minorities" and never have. This includes Karl Marx. He wasn't some Buddha figure who people just mistakenly misinterpreted. No. Karl Marx's vision was fulfilled just fine by Lenin and Mao and the rest. That's exactly the kind of thing he wanted.

Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 12:20:11 2014 No.5149155

>>5149147
Nope. Egalitarianism of the 19th Century tended to not care about the equal rights of women. Feminism started as a movement to give women equal rights, and women got the vote and marital rape became illegal, that sort of stuff, because of feminists. Egalitarian movements might even pay lip service to issues, but to say they cover them actively, is as preposterous as feminism saying that it covers all LGBT issues, and that anyone in favor of LGBT rights should simply refer to themselves as a feminist.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:22:11 2014 No.5149162 >>5149153 >what you need to understand about Communism is my superimposed definition of its possible ramifications into applicable modes of organizing ourselves sociopolitically.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:23:14 2014 No.5149165 >>5148840 This. Anyone who says the words "pay gap" is simply divorced from reality. It does not exist.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:28:26 2014 No.5149173

>>5149165
>>5148840

care to explain?

not a feminist, as I'm not sure what this term entails judging by today's feminists, but I do think that gender discrimination exists and could therefore lead to 'pay gaps'. it's hard to measure and observe and gets thrown around too 'liberally', it may not even be the most appropriate term, but some women do end up getting paid less simply because they are women.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:28:50 2014 No.5149174

>>5149151
>but to believe that the world is fundamentally broken and that revolution is not possible is also ideological and allows the current ruling class to continue undisturbed.

OK mate. We're getting to the core of things now. This is where the debate really is.

Communists believe that the evil in the world can be ascribed to "society", and that once we make society good we will essentially have the Kingdom of Heaven. Contrast this with Christianity which says that the evil is NOT in society, but in ourselves. The Communists say that people are perfect, it's society that makes them evil. Christians say that people are corrupt, and the corruption seen in society is just the effect of this evil that's in man.

So, in Communism you have:

>the proletariat as the Messianic figure, Christ
>society/bourgeoisie/capitalism as Satan
>the revolution of the proletariat as the great messianic event where humanity is brought into the Kingdom of Heaven, similar to the crucifixion
>the Communist utopia as the Kingdom of Heaven

it's an attempt to make heaven on earth.
Christianity says that heaven on earth is impossible because man is corrupt, and even if you built the perfect society with perfect equality, perfect laws, etc., men would still ruin it for the sake of ruining it, because of sin.

See, you're mad that if "we don't do anything about it" then the rulers of this world will get away with it, and so we have to take revenge on them for all the injustices that they perpetrate. Christianity says that you should just be good and ignore the evils of others, that you don't have the right to take vengeance on others as though you were free of sin, and that God will ultimately take vengeance on the unjust.

That's contrasting (idealistic) Communism and Christianity. Point is that this does all come down to metaphysics/spirituality. Communism is a religious/metaphysical creed before it is a political movement. It's the belief that the evil in the world can be defeated through political action.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:30:37 2014 No.5149181

>>5149153
(btw i didn't delete. I doubleposted >>5149137)

>>5149153
so your take on it is that it's a power grab between opposing groups that are already powerful and wish to mobilize the lifeblood of those who believe in its message?

that's pretty goddamn stupid because communism has been thoroughly trounced by a neoliberalism that is actually visibly supported by power (in terms of being well-represented in film, music, tv, etc) in a way that communism categorically is not. Where's the communist rhetoric outside of a small cluster of academics and leftists?

>>5149174
it's not that people will get away with it. it's a question of creating a world in which it is possible for more people to live. Revenge is pointless, but a revolution that can feed more human beings is not.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:31:04 2014 No.5149182 >>5149173 >but I do think that gender discrimination What is gender discrimination? My sister wears bras and I don't, is that gender discrimination?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:31:36 2014 No.5149185 >>5149120 >if elliot rodgers is any indication, men don't exactly know what women want either Have you read the Supreme Gentleman's memoir? He's borderline retarded.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:33:22 2014 No.5149191 bourgeois distraction from class struggle works every time > b-but white women need more money to buy things!

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:33:56 2014 No.5149192

>>5149174
wow mayne, your aesthetic handling of similes and labels induces like intellectual orgasms. your self-sophistry, personal redefinitions and exquisite style almost make up for the fact that your critical judgement can't logic. you should totally write a book bro.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:34:17 2014 No.5149195 >>5149191 which is what intersectional feminism is for. try again, dingus.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:35:14 2014 No.5149197 >>5149195 > hey look at my irrelevant ivory tower movement that made an obscure argument for why feminism isn't just rich women whining > also check my tenure

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:35:41 2014 No.5149198 >>5149182 no. what are you talking about? I'm not a hipster feminist. gender discrimination is simply distributing sociopolitical power based on gender.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:36:43 2014 No.5149203 File: 40 KB, 500x347, StateofLEwomen-web-6.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] > women are just as good at being police officers as men are > it's all language anyways! D E L U S I O N E L U S I O N

>>	Neither of those guys Thu Jul 17 12:38:48 2014 No.5149213 >>5149173 http://youtube.com/watch?v=G_sGn6PdmIo

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:39:15 2014 No.5149215 >>5149197 >it's justified to hate all women because of white women >black feminists don't exist

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:39:28 2014 No.5149217 Feminism is actually anglo-american imperialism. It's funny how white women think they're liberating the world but insisting that other cultures are oppressive and "misogynist."

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:39:37 2014 No.5149218

>>5149181
>so your take on it is that it's a power grab between opposing groups that are already powerful and wish to mobilize the lifeblood of those who believe in its message?

Pretty much. Every revolution has started an ended the same way.

>a group of Machiavellians want power
>they train demagogues to go into society and recruit the jaded masses to their cause by pointing out the evils of the current regime and promising them a better regime
>masses are mobilized, the king loses his head
>the Machiavellian manipulators take control of the masses, institute an even more brutal regime than the last one

all the talk about wanting to liberate the poor and oppressed is rhetoric, propaganda

there is evil in this world but it's not in the upper class, the ruling class, the capitalist class, the bourgeois class, etc. It's in humanity, in every single human being. You can't make the world a better place. The world is set in its ways. Every generation there are young idealists looking to make the world a better place, but the world is still ruled by pride, ambition and greed. You should focus on the evil that's in yourself, and when you are totally free of corruption you can begin to worry about the corruption in other people and in society.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:40:29 2014 No.5149221 >>5149215 > hasn't heard of the #solidarityisforwhitewomen

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:42:32 2014 No.5149229 >>5149217 Except due to the definition of the word, many cultures across the world are misogynistic. Though these cultures may or may not even have an actual term to describe misogyny.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:43:46 2014 No.5149234 >>5149229 > deconstruction is good when it's convenient > don't worry I have clear access to language and other culture's even though I'm an outsider kek go to bed ms descartes

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:44:48 2014 No.5149238 > If we use gender neutral language, the gender equality will trickle down! Why does this sound familiar?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:45:43 2014 No.5149242 >>5149221 that is an insistence that we do not disregard race, not that we disregard gender. don't accept all feminisms doesn't mean don't accept any feminism.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:47:54 2014 No.5149256 >>5149217 That's probably the only good thing about 'feminism' these days

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:48:01 2014 No.5149258

>>5149213
I'll never be able to get over how much of a faggot Buckley is, speech-wise. was it really cool in any way for people to speak like that?

anyway, I agree. I've already said that it's hard to measure and observe. I've never said that looking at income statistics solely through the lens of race is a good idea. I'm referring to instances where people don't hire women because maternity leave, or because 'not hot enough', or etc. Sure, this isn't an indication of a system that is permissive of such behaviour, as we have laws against that, but it does happen. Can you police shitty cultural attitudes efficiently? I don't know. Do most feminists do a shitty job at it? Definitely.

I'm merely saying that gender discrimination does exist.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:49:52 2014 No.5149264

>>5149215
That's because black women actually have to put up with shit. They, more often than not, live in a shitty community. It's only when life is good you start nitpicking about things that don't matter. The happier you are the smaller the gap between good an bad experiences become. Getting the wrong order at starbucks can fuck your whole day if there's nothing bad in your life.
Feminists only excist because the patriarchy made life so good for them.
Please excuse my english.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:53:07 2014 No.5149280
File: 40 KB, 615x345, Anita-Sarkeesian-Screenshot.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Quick, somebody alert the village matriarchs!

Videogames are misogynistic!

> meanwhile in a crumbling Bangladesh factory filled with underpaid women...
> meanwhile in a chinese Apple factory filled with 15 year old girls who work 7 days a week and die because they inhale too much aluminum making Macbooks and iPhones which feminists use to retweet their frustrations...

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:55:15 2014 No.5149287

>>5148726
exactly.
feminism is an ideology at best and is impossible to achieve not because of the potentially flexible social standpoint they are under but from fundamental biological and psychological differences that define our genders creating differences in their roles.
for example women are unlikely to achieve the same working standards as men due the potential of childbirth creating a long paid vacation in the eyes of an employer.
it would be an excellent thing to achieve but it simply isn't going to happen unless biology itself changes.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 12:58:11 2014 No.5149305

>>5149280
true, but you're using it as a reason to hate sarkeesian, not to care about the bangladesh workers.

>>5149287
sex and gender are a spectrum, not hard distinctions. psychological differences are a result primarily of socialization.

human nature does not exist, and anyone who thinks it does is projecting. it's the fastest way to find out what someone believes.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:00:51 2014 No.5149318 >>5149305 We don't have to care about the bangladesh workers. We aren't pretending to be champions of the downtrodden.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:03:45 2014 No.5149331

>>5149305
>sex and gender are a spectrum

Heads and tails are a spectrum because ever so rarely the coin lands on edge.

This is actually really frustrating because there are a lot of well-meaning liberal folk who are more than happy to accept anyone as whatever sexuality they claim to be and not be the slightest bit judgmental, but this "there's no such thing as male/female" shit sets off so many bullshit alarms that you're actively losing their support.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:05:38 2014 No.5149337

>>5149174
That was a gross equivocation, m8. Surely the Christ doesn't have to learn economics first. The Birth is beyond human and nothing that is made by human can make it intelligible, hence the Dogma. It's like saying Communism is Christianity, where everyone is shown how to become God through science.

Wait, isn't that the project of the New Man? Awesome. Cyborg body super working people when?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:08:16 2014 No.5149349 >>5149331 what do you think it is? genitalia? hormone balance?

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:09:57 2014 No.5149352

>>5149305
Gender is a spectrum but misogyny isn't?

> Except due to the definition of the word, many cultures across the world are misogynistic. Though these cultures may or may not even have an actual term to describe misogyny.

What makes you so confident that you can identify oppression in other cultures, rather than just victimizing women who make free choices?

So, play with language when it's convenient, but hope no one points out the inconsistencies in my thinking.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:10:48 2014 No.5149357 >>5149318 The argument you present is ethically quite perverse.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:11:47 2014 No.5149360 >>5149305 >sex and gender are a spectrum [citation needed]

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:13:10 2014 No.5149364

>>5149349
Not being able to set a criteria that can account for every possible eventuality does not mean you say fuck it, it's all up for grabs.

A tiny, tiny handful of humans do not fall neatly into the male/female divide. This does not mean the 97+% who do no longer count.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:13:45 2014 No.5149367 >>5149305 gender may be a spectrum, but on a biological level (aside from extremely rare anomalies) sex is black or white. it matters not what they identify as, a man cannot give birth

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:14:22 2014 No.5149371

>>5149360
Smells like Judy Butler, who doesn't believe a penis and vagina exist, but it's all just language.

> all I do in my ivory tower is play with language
> therefore everything everyone does, and all which is, is simply language!
> also, FREEDOM

She's won many awards for terrible writing, but she defends her obscurity but saying that it's actually liberating and fights oppression.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:14:47 2014 No.5149374 Become devoid of all intelligence and common sence

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:15:54 2014 No.5149377

>>5149352
i believe in the capacity of women to accurately describe their experiences and tell me what i can do to help, if anything. I try to read feminist media because women publish it in order to be read.

I try not to speak about cultures that are not my own, and I recognize that the rituals, customs, and norms of a culture are important to the experiences of women.

when someone tells me that I am out of line, i stop.

it's not that difficult, but it does mean that you have to be conscious of your place in the world.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:18:13 2014 No.5149387 >>5149377 > I like to get walked on and told what to do > i believe in the capacity of women to accurately describe their experiences and tell me what i can do to help, if anything Read Lacan.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:19:15 2014 No.5149394 >>5149377 beta detected

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:20:06 2014 No.5149399

>>5149377
>i believe in the capacity of women to accurately describe their experiences and tell me what i can do to help, if anything. I try to read feminist media because women publish it in order to be read.

Most cringe-worthy post I've read in a long time.

Maybe you haven't clued in, but women say different things to men than they do with each other.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:21:15 2014 No.5149404 >>5149394 patriarchial construct. i don't need to perform masculinity >>5149399 >women have nothing useful or interesting to say to me cool

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:23:03 2014 No.5149413

Subscribe to a philosophy whose primary objective is the advancement and continued growth of female rights in the world, irrespective of male and non-gender counterparts. While simultaneously demanding equal rights between each gender, advancing forward only one part of the spectrum as though equality is not homogeneous.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:24:05 2014 No.5149422 >>5149394 This has nothing to do with the feminism debate but I've always wondered why people use "beta" like that when a zoologist would use "omega." After all in nature beta males still get plenty of action. They just don't get the top pick.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:26:37 2014 No.5149433 >>5149422 There's a picture of it on 4chan somewhere, the breakdown of alpha, beta and omega.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:28:51 2014 No.5149441 >>5149387 even when they are walking on me, i have the lifeline of patriarchy if i ever want out. i can always just "be a man" and then the problem is gone for me.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:29:19 2014 No.5149442

>>5149404
No, they do have something useful to say to you, but you need to read between the lines.

If you try to tell a woman that she doesn't know what she wants, she'll resent you and call you a bigot/misogynist etc

Meanwhile when they're between friends, one of them will say "oh I don't know what I want" and they all relate.

Look at the characters women write. None of them knows that they want and none of them can describe why the beta man turns them off.

Read Lacan, read Zizek on Lacan, or read Milton's Paradise Lost.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:29:59 2014 No.5149444 >>5149404 regardless of how well constructed your argument may be the second you refer to the patriarchy you lose credibility.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:30:21 2014 No.5149445 >>5149441 > this is what betas actually believe

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:32:26 2014 No.5149453 >>5149445 uhh, that's what the western world believes. why do you think that becoming a man is such an important and recurring theme? What, do you think that "not being a man (being a boy or manchild or w/e)" grants more power than being one?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:33:43 2014 No.5149460 >>5149444 not that guy but I'm assuming he means the alpha-beta framework is not valid because humans aren't wolves. since you correctly observed that this might be undermining his ethos, yet understood his logos, why are you being a cunt?

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:35:51 2014 No.5149470

>>5149441
Hm...let's see...

Being homeless is a problem.

Many homeless are men.

Their problems will magically disappear if they just be more manly.

But what's more manly than the rugged existence of life on the edge?

Therefore being homeless is the cure for homelessness.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:36:21 2014 No.5149474 >>5149460 we're not in 11th grade english class anymore buddy drop the ethos logos bullshit and make a real argument

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:38:07 2014 No.5149478 >>5149460 >>5149453 haha you're a funny kid

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:39:09 2014 No.5149482
File: 978 KB, 960x922, 1400648603770.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5149444
"The Patriarchy" feels like one of those terms in which a faceless villain is referenced for everyone to hate without even knowing its face. Like "The Illuminati," or the corporations -- is there any one instance of manifestation of patriarchy that can be pointed to, or is it just a spirit?

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:40:38 2014 No.5149487

>>5149470
being a man is an ascent to agency. responsibility/power/hard work/loyalty and all that. choosing one's own destiny. taking what you want. All of the traits associated with being a man will pretty much win you respect and power among other people.

>>5149474
you're the one who flips out over the word "patriarchy" instead of making a real argument.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:40:57 2014 No.5149489 >>5149460 because although his point is perfectly valid the act of referring to the patriarchy places you at webcomic levels of feminist idiocy. it is a fact that I think is petty and idiotic but it is a fact.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:41:23 2014 No.5149493 >>5149482 > it's the Jews! > it's the Illuminati! > it's the Patriarchy! gender is a spectrum but it's always the stable other who is ruining my life!

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:41:35 2014 No.5149495 >>5149487 the patriarchy isnt a real thing

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:44:44 2014 No.5149508 >>5149493 The Patriarchy works in mysterious ways.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:45:02 2014 No.5149510

Patriarchy simply assumes that of all the identities a person has gender is somehow the most important, even though it NEVER is.

Even an outright mysoginist would still hold family, class, race, and nationalism ahead of gender.

Gender is practically the lowest in importance in the identity totem pole. Only the stupidest shitheads could believe a white upper class American male would feel more kinship to a poor black Somali than to his own female kin and peers just because of maleness.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:47:21 2014 No.5149519 >>5149474 >>5149478 most likely samefag. also, what am I to make an argument for/against? I was merely saying that guy wasn't really advancing the argument in any direction.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:50:01 2014 No.5149528

>>5149510
ehhh, i'm (probably by virtue of being asian and super whitewashed) rarely or never visibly harassed for my race, but i regularly see my female friends get catcalled/grabbed/whatever, including dudes forcefully making out with them.

of course, maybe it has to do with their races as well (exotifying or w/e), but it seems like gender has a solid place on the list.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:51:19 2014 No.5149536 >>5149528 (other thoughts) class probably holds primacy out of all of that stuff, but that's also because it's a product of the other things (jim crow -> poverty for PoC, etc etc)

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:55:41 2014 No.5149553

>>5149508
>>5149482
>>5149493
Ok, one thing: stop thinking that the power goes from top to bottom. It does not work like that. There isn't a Patriarchy saying to everybody to be mysoginist. It is far more subtle than that.

Second: do not think the patriarchy as something that work all over the world with the same characteristics. In different cultures, the opression to women works with different characteristics,

Three: you guys need to study. To tell the truth, most of this board. This looks like a bunch of retards at a pub that never read a single book saying shit about how the Supreme Court should act. Seriously, if you guys want to speak about law, about feminsm, etc., even if it to critic it, at least know what you're about.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 13:57:03 2014 No.5149558

>>5149528
talking about socialising not so much, because those people who catcalled etc probably regard how much money, power and relation to him a person has before gender in that case.
acts of a sexual nature are obviously going to take gender into account more than normal because of sexual preferences.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:00:32 2014 No.5149571 >>5149553 it is sounding more and more whimsical the more you talk about it >1 it works in mysterious ways >2 it is different depending on who you ask >3 you are completely unable to discover it until a book tells you it's there

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:02:18 2014 No.5149581 >>5149553 Good post.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:08:16 2014 No.5149603

>>5149553
>There isn't a Patriarchy saying to everybody to be mysoginist
This isn't mad-libs, you can't match and mix words thinking it will make sense. The idea I mentioned was that, The Patriarchy is a place holder for problems that are perceived to exist in more strength and frequency than is actually realistic. Without actually identifying what it is, people refer to it -- as I have been doing -- as some faceless beast. In doing so, people take the blame off of other real people and direct it towards a phantasm. The point of this is that most people you meet don't care enough to oppress you, even if they were in support of such legislation. Another example, one I haven't mentioned, is calling all insurgents Taliban. So no one has to legitimately believe that they are authorising the attack of real human beings.

>In different cultures, the opression to women works with different characteristics,
I agree. I don't think once in my post I said anything counter to this. Let me make my point clear, I'm not against feminism as a whole. I think there is genuine misogyny in many places around the world. I believe these are areas that are more deserving of the focus of gender-equality than most Western places.

> Seriously, if you guys want to speak about law, about feminsm, etc., even if it to critic it, at least know what you're about.
Has anyone said how they want the Supreme Court to act; I don't believe so. I previously spoke about the definition of feminism applies to the advancement of female rights irrespective of their male counter-part. In that, it's often a complaint that single males between the age of 25 and 30 are on average paid higher than women. What is not a complaint, is how heavily skewed divorce and custody claims are.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:08:52 2014 No.5149605

>>5149553
Have you ever considered that oppression of women is justified, especially when women don't at all feel oppressed and actually are content with their "gender role"?

imo women are much more oppressed today than they were in the middle ages when they had a fixed gender role.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:12:14 2014 No.5149617

>>5149605
cont.

How is going from being oppressed by your husband to being oppressed by your husband and your employer the liberation of women?

Do you not see that a woman that breaks free from motherhood to have sex with many men has become oppressed by her own carnal desires? That if she married she would be liberated from her own oppressive sexual desire? I don't see how the Sex & the City women are liberated; they seem pretty oppressed by their obsession with sex, gossip, and fashion.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:13:53 2014 No.5149623 >>5149617 But Anon. A man who has sex with lots of women is often congratulated by his friends. But a woman who has sex with lots of men is called a slut and a whore. :^)

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:17:22 2014 No.5149636
File: 55 KB, 590x480, Socrates-Alcibiades.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5149623
>A man who has sex with lots of women is often congratulated by his friends. But a woman who has sex with lots of men is called a slut and a whore.

This is only because men freely despise one and other and love to encourage one and other to fall into the deadly and oppressive grip of carnal desire, whereas men want to protect women from such oppression as so slutshame them to save them from such a fall.

pic related, it's Socrates calling his bro Alciabades a manslut. Slutshaming is a form of love. If you don't slutshame somebody it's because you don't give a shit about them and want them to be consumed by Eros.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:20:17 2014 No.5149642

>>5149571
The power relations on society works on a individual level, being reproduced by everybody everyday. People see those relations and repeat it. The "patriarchy" is born on this. There isn't a patriarchy, there's a lot of people that act in a mysoginistic way.

>>5149603
The first point happens because people still think the power relations on society with a top to bottom approach. And these problems exist, i guarantee you, with a frequency that's just frightening. I work with this (i'm a judge in Brazil) and it's horrible.

And please, do not think that the 1st world countries do not need feminism. They need it, and a lot because what you guys show on media, etc. has serious repercussions on other countries. Especially those where colonial-like power relations still exist.

And that was a figure of speech, when i wrote the Supreme Court part.

>>5149605
Not justified, explained. There's a big difference.

You're confusing some things, there's some interssectionality between feminism and marxism that explains what you're saying when you ask "How is going from being oppressed by your husband to being oppressed by your husband and your employer the liberation of women? ". That's a really good question, really. There are some authors that agree partially with think, thinking that the liberation of a gender role to be explored by the capitalism is problematic.

Now, you're confusing another thing: women can reproduce opressions. And women can be happy with how they are. But the problem lays in the fact that some women are not content with the way things are, and they feel opressed, so the only thing we have to do is to let them speak and try to change.

English is not my main language, i gotta go to work, if this is still alive, i can post some recomendations for you guys.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:20:31 2014 No.5149643 >>5149623 >But a woman who has sex with lots of men is called a slut and a whore. Mostly by women. Men really don't care that much unless they're highly religious. Modern feminists are astoundingly sex-negative, though. And downright Puritan.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:20:55 2014 No.5149644 You listen to women without argument.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:22:59 2014 No.5149653

>>5149636

Never heard this take on it. Seems like the source is a bit antiquated, but nonetheless a very interesting way of looking at it.

On the one hand I can see the correlation between caring for someone and calling them a slut, on the other hand it's often used as a judgement or insult on someone the person doesn't even know, e.g. some person on a tv show or something dumb like that.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:24:58 2014 No.5149658

>>5149642
>Now, you're confusing another thing: women can reproduce opressions. And women can be happy with how they are. But the problem lays in the fact that some women are not content with the way things are, and they feel opressed, so the only thing we have to do is to let them speak and try to change.

Not really.

Say that I'm a slave. There's two ways I can start feeling less oppressed: overthrowing my master, or learning to accept my lot as a slave. If I overthrew my master, perhaps I would be worse off and more oppressed, e.g. I kill my master, but am unable to provide myself food that my master provided for me, and now I am more oppressed by hunger than my master ever oppressed me.
So maybe it's better to become humble than to rebel against the social order when ever you start to feel discontent.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:30:08 2014 No.5149677

>>5149642
So instead of blaming things on a patriarchy, you understand that there are these problems in the world and seek to eliminate them. That, which a lot of other feminists do, should be the objective of their philosophy. Instead of wanting to take misdirected punitive measures against The Patriarchy.

What do we show on media that has serious repercussions in other countries that is exclusively reserved for women?

I understand the role of feminism, but I think the definition to too many supporters of it is horribly misaligned. And that, teenage girls haven't suffered serious abuse if they were hit on, or told that they looked attractive.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:31:12 2014 No.5149682
File: 109 KB, 346x440, scienceCover.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

If you want an example of the Puritanism of feminists, take a look at the backlash this magazine cover is getting.

Apparently bare womens' legs is lurid pornography in the minds of some feminists.

You know if you find you have the same reaction to something that Pat Robertson would have it should make you question whether or not you're really as liberal and progressive as you think you are.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:35:07 2014 No.5149696 >tfw feminism is just a Luciferian rebellion against authority just like every other "Progressive" political movement better to reign in hell than serve in heaven, ay, femitards :^)

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:36:48 2014 No.5149706 >>5149682 They can't seem to decide between muh body and omg objectification

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:38:12 2014 No.5149713 >>5149706 If you think I'm sexy you're terrible but if you don't think I'm sexy you're even terrible-er.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:38:46 2014 No.5149715 >>5149682 or it might be that bare women's legs aren't directly related to AIDS. But focusing on them 1) cheap way to sell magazines 2) lays more blame on women

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:45:42 2014 No.5149755

>>5149715
>thinking people will actually buy a copy of Science because there are legs on the cover

There's stupid and then there's stupid. Also:

>taking the most uncharitable interpretation of an ambiguous situation

Mite b justifiable when the responsible party actually has some sort of history of bad behavior, but for most feminists it seems that the most uncharitable interpretation is the only interpretation.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:45:53 2014 No.5149756 >>5149715 Besides affirming the idea that all women are good for is decorative objects or masturbatory aids, that is.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 14:46:09 2014 No.5149759 >>5148407 mah hebrew

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 15:37:46 2014 No.5150015 File: 68 KB, 750x1024, Benedict-Cumberbatch-Star-Trek-Into-Darkness-Special-Footage-Presentation-benedict-cumberbatch-32948022-1024-1398_zps881ffef5[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5148364 >how hawt Cumberbatch is wot

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 15:39:06 2014 No.5150020 >>5148371 >implying those are all the same >implying Chistina Sommers isn't a de facto MRA

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 15:44:18 2014 No.5150041 >>5149759 I see what yehudid here.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 15:47:31 2014 No.5150054 >Women are just as good or better than men at everything. There you go, you don't even need to charge me.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 15:59:31 2014 No.5150095 >>5148295 >pseudo-intellectual empty buzzwords and endless repetition of obvious trivialities oh the irony

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:01:43 2014 No.5150099 >>5148371 >papyrus

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:05:29 2014 No.5150111 >>5150054 mfw you don't understand the significance of gender difference in feminism mfw you're in an argument about feminism but you haven't even read the prologue of the second sex mfw i have no face for this

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:06:50 2014 No.5150114 >>5150111 Christian apologists try that same "you can't argue with us until you've read all 90 billion of our books" bullshit too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:07:03 2014 No.5150117 >>5150015 god, he looks like such an inbred faggot.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:08:40 2014 No.5150122 >>5149213 Very good video, but it's 40 years old and the point hasn't stuck. Feminism is too emotionally compelling to be destroyed by reason for the majority.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:13:00 2014 No.5150131 [DELETED]

>>5150114
terrible strawman

also they're actually right in the fact you can't construct a valid critique of christianity, or indeed any ideology, without sufficiently familiarising yourself with its central tenets

i think the it should be self-evident

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:14:35 2014 No.5150139

>>5150114
terrible strawman

also they're actually right in the fact you can't construct a valid critique of christianity, or indeed any ideology, without sufficiently familiarising yourself with its central tenets

i think the it should be self-evident

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:16:02 2014 No.5150146 >>5148471 >the burden of having kids feminists just hate being women. it's really sad.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:16:40 2014 No.5150147 >>5150139 *minus the last it

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:21:40 2014 No.5150169 Once you familiarize yourself with the Motte and Bailey strategy it becomes blindingly apparent how often feminists employ it: http://siryouarebeingmocked.tumblr.com/post/51265699354/the-motte-and-bailey-defense

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:22:51 2014 No.5150176 >>5149218 >implying humanity has always been dominator society based

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:26:39 2014 No.5150196

>>5149617
>>5149553

I'm with you. The left constantly sells itself as the saviour of humankind, but all it does is force people into conditions that are detrimental to their nature. You see this in feminism and multiculturalism most starkly. It is literally inhumane, it's like putting a parrot in a cage and watching it tear its own feathers out, convinced it's simply trauma from its days in the wild and it will grow out of it.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:39:13 2014 No.5150257
File: 31 KB, 1853x220, feminism - religion of the male.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5149553
The subtlety you mention is precisely why I cannot take the 'Patriarchy' seriously.

Imagine just how deep the issue goes when you frame it this manner: Men, simply by engaging in casual interactions with each other as well as women, automatically generate a social order that manages to oppress and suppress women so well that at first glance one would think it was intelligently designed. But no, it is a bottom to top thing which has existed for thousands of years in all corners of the earth. It actually transcends culture itself. It takes root independently of the personal beliefs of individuals. A group of men who treat women fairly unknowingly promote the patriarchy. Women, having grown up swamped by the subtle machinations of the patriarchy, end up brainwashed so that they may continue to perpetuate the patriarchy despite it not being in their best interest.

The patriarchy ends up being some invincible monstrosity similar to pic related.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:51:59 2014 No.5150312 [DELETED]

>>5150257
Your description of patriarchy is in fact quite accurate, except for the part about it's supposed cultural transcendence, and your statement concerning its invincibility. Why do yo find it difficult to take seriously?

The pic you posted is drivel, though.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:53:53 2014 No.5150324

>>5150257
Your description of patriarchy is in fact quite accurate, except for the part about cultural transcendence, and your statement concerning its invincibility. Why do you find it difficult to take seriously?

The pic you posted is drivel, though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:55:03 2014 No.5150326 >>5150324 I bet you believe in rape culture too

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 16:56:08 2014 No.5150332 File: 905 KB, 1296x6328, 17 Reasons.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5148251 You don't.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:00:46 2014 No.5150347 >>5150326 Shitty bet, considering only I'm privy to the answer.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:06:53 2014 No.5150365 >>5149258 >but it does happen Apparently not to a statistically significant degree, no.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:10:17 2014 No.5150382 >>5149155 Or that feminism strives for equality.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:14:18 2014 No.5150395

What it boils down to is asking ourselves whether policing cultural attitudes is possible/worth it?

I think it is. Only through culture though. Now, are some feminists confusing the fight for straightening shitty cultural attitudes of inbred males with fixing natural instincts? For sure. Are they making things worse by doing this? yeya. Does this mean shit doesn't need to be fixed? No.

I think the definition of the problem is as simple as this. The solution is complicated though, and we might not as much influence over it as we think.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:17:59 2014 No.5150412

>>5150324
The pic was supposed to be fun, the idea taken the the ridiculous extreme.

1. It does transcend culture. Patriarchy may look different depending on where you go, but the idea itself (women get 2nd place) dominates the globe (with rare exceptions).

2. I can't take it seriously because I find biology to be simpler explanation. Things exist as they are due to natural tendencies. Sure there may be problems and bumps in the road. However, there do exist opportunities for improvement which can be done gradually. Humans' natural tendencies can also by channeled into different activities/institutions/etc which can yield a superior state of affairs.

The war against the patriarchy does not seek to manipulate biology; it actively wars against it and expects to change the default behavior itself.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:19:16 2014 No.5150414 >>5148437 Weirdly enough, the correlatio is negative.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:44:13 2014 No.5150518 Don't, get into individualism instead.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 17:44:58 2014 No.5150520 >>5149357 Compared to pretending you're a modern messiah and not giving a shit about other people losing their lives more than you do about how men don't want to fuck you and you're too lazy to lose weight? No. Not even close.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 18:16:48 2014 No.5150652

>>5149658
well, those who should decide it are those being opressed, right?

>>5149677
One thing is the impact that media has on women, especially on those on the 3rd world, another is the impact that media has on men and women, and it is harmful for men too. But what i'm saying here is that you shouldn't deslegitimize the feminism in 1st world countries because it's still really important

>>5150412
It does not transcend culture, otherwise it'd imply that there's something transcendental taht makes men opress women, and that's just really retarded, to be honest. And no, the biological argument is not enough, even more because the paradigm these knowledges were made, the ways women are opressed are really different from country to country, etc.

You should try to read Bourdieu, i think it would change your mind.

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 18:34:31 2014 No.5150752

>>5149280
Well it's not really sexist since Bangladeshi and Chinese factories are full of underpaid overworked men as well.
So workers rights are what's needed there not feminism. Feminism can stick to whining about too many male characters in Call of Duty.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 19:45:51 2014 No.5151077 >>5150332 underrated post

>>	Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 19:47:15 2014 No.5151084 >>5150518 Radical individualism requires the acceptance of many feminist ideas, at least passively. You cannot, for instance, be a radical individual if you feel you have to pander to a gender role

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 19:57:26 2014 No.5151122

>>5151084
>You cannot, for instance, be a radical individual if you feel you have to pander to a gender role

I have a question about this and 'Stirnerism'. What if one is not compelled by outside forces, but desires for themselves (free from being controlled by any spooks), purely by themselves, to fit a gender role, or to follow a religion?

>>	Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 21:01:36 2014 No.5151395 >>5151122 Then they do it so long as they enjoy it, so long as the realize they're doing it purely for satisfaction, and not out of duty or commandment or compulsion, not of a feeling of owning it, not out of feeling of obligation

>>	Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 21:08:38 2014 No.5151418 >>5151395 >not out of a feeling of owing it heh. they would own it

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 21:10:15 2014 No.5151424 >>5151084 except that its feminists who feel they have to pander to a gender role everybody else is just being themselves

>>	Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 21:13:21 2014 No.5151436 >>5151424 is that so

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 21:15:20 2014 No.5151446

>>5148251
i feel really it's a matter of destiny, deskiny, you know, i was one said by someone said to me: "feminism is a cancer to mysoginists which are right ------------------------- in that they hold many similar moral values to others in similar positions aside from the female one -----------------------------which isn't to say the female one shouldn't be reckoned with

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 21:26:46 2014 No.5151487 >>5148431 This actually makes a lot of sense. The smartest people always try to change and progress anything they focus on.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 21:30:14 2014 No.5151500 >>5149377 >i believe in the capacity of women to accurately describe their experiences and tell me what i can do to help You're too far gone, m8. It's over. You can't be cleansed of your ideology. Give up.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 21:34:18 2014 No.5151510 >>5151436 >mfw a tranny was this retarded near me

Anonymous Thu Jul 17 21:35:19 2014 No.5151514

>>5151424
>>5151436
I would agree with this. "Gender roles" are something created by watching how people react. Before feminists made a point of making them explicit, they were merely implied. For example, "un-manly" things like art, or singing, or dancing were all part of manly culture before feminists decided to define "male" attributes by their contemporaries.

And because of that short sightedness, feminism can never be more than a reactionary movement against the cinema of the 1950s. Feminism is incapable of answering why the greatest exceptions to the gender binary (homosexuality, pederasty, lesbianism, third genders and much more) were far more accepted during the patriarchal ancient world than they are today, because the crux of feminist theory is establishing rigid definitions of masculinity and femininity--only so they can rebel against it.

The tradition of gender roles has long been utilitarian in nature; if it were convenient for a country to have their women fight, they would. It is only in the post-feminist world that people started to get into their heads that women were forbidden from doing things specifically because they were women, because that's how feminists wanted to frame it. You won't hear a feminist admit, for example, that the oppressed Muslim women of Afghanistan were chiefly in charge of torturing British soldiers during the Second Anglo-Afghan War by quite literally pissing down their throats until they drowned to death, and that's because according to feminist narrative the evil patriarchal Afghan men should be forbidding their women from doing anything indecent, when the reality is that the evil patriarchal Afghan men only care about keeping their family lives together and will let their women do absolutely anything as long as it doesn't conflict with the evil patriarchal Afghan men's ideal of what a family should look like.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 21:36:40 2014 No.5151515 >>5148251 fuck some love >captcha: Kingnar tartar >love it

>>	Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Thu Jul 17 21:38:13 2014 No.5151520 >>5151514 The Second Sex was published in 1949, I believe.

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Thu Jul 17 21:57:46 2014 No.5151603

>>5148796
0/10
>>5148853
To teach them, ya'think?
>>5148855
>13 many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image of being weak
>Have an image of being weak
Lame. Leftists want their lives improved.
>>5149086
>but people in this very thread said that legal equality can't be the target
Do I care?

>>5149682
>>5149715
>Thinking those are women's legs

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 22:03:15 2014 No.5151621 >>5149120 >If one insanely stunted individual is any indication No, it certainly isn't.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 22:16:41 2014 No.5151685 Help me pls. I want to dig feminism but 3rd wave feminism is so shitty. Also, I believe that gender roles fall into place because of the nature of the sexes, though not everything is black and white. Is there still hope to be a feminist.

>>	Steve Scuba Thu Jul 17 22:41:26 2014 No.5151775 >>5148287 >de Beauvoir, The Second Sex A smart professor I have recommended this.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 17 23:48:04 2014 No.5151983 >>5151685 why?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 18 01:12:40 2014 No.5152302 >>5151520 >100% yes >just good sexualized philosophy that's not Freud, feminist or not >das Mitsein

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 18 04:17:54 2014 No.5152805 >>5148312 >I think the smarter ones are. Feminists were once egalitarian, many, many years ago. But that's not what feminism is in 2014. Feminism has a different meaning now.

Anonymous Fri Jul 18 04:31:59 2014 No.5152828

>>5148386
I'm going to assume this was a reaction to my post >>5148372

That still doesn't change anything. The majority is always dumb. But modern technology gave everyone a voice, so now you can actually hear the retards. The French revolution would've been absolutely abominable if it would've had twitter aswell. It would've gone down as the cesspool of darkness rather than the revolution of enlightenment.

>>	Feminister !!F9QVQ82MjmE Fri Jul 18 04:43:30 2014 No.5152848 >>5151775 It's 740 pages, but it is definitely worth reading.

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/lit/ - Literature