/lit/ - Literature

File: 417 KB, 720x1280, Screenshot_2014-07-12-20-14-38.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

trumancapote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Sat Jul 12 15:21:07 2014 No.5128640 [DELETED]

A pioneering virtual reality engineer at Valve just quit his job and made his resignation letter public. He says the ubiquity of entertainment devices and the trajectory of connected yet physically anti-social technology (such as VR) replacing 'real' communication is leading us down a grim path as a society.

Are we really heading towards a solipsistic dystopia, /lit/?

I find the idea of reading a book in a VR space to be both paradoxical and unnerving. A book is the one exceptional medium of stimulation that cannot be enhanced through online interaction at the time of consumption. If we can feel comfortable entering the fantasy world of a book through the simulated world of a VR machine, anything is possible.

>>	trumancapote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Sat Jul 12 15:23:21 2014 No.5128649 Link to the letter: https://gist.github.com/rygorous/251b945aef2046ac7cee

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:28:02 2014 No.5128657

I think we're already on the path, I was talking to my 10-something year old cousin the other day and he kept fingering his phone, looking up wiki articles. It was as if I wasn't even there.

It's strange to have infinite knowledge yet lack the means to appreciate it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:40:45 2014 No.5128693 Hell yes. If the solipsistic dystopia means permanent VR then bring it on

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:47:12 2014 No.5128721 What a fucking faggot. >>5128693 This.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:49:04 2014 No.5128733 >>5128657 This. I try to spend less time on the internet now. Shit's awful for you the way it's presently used.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:50:39 2014 No.5128740 There's much money to be made on VR porn.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:52:30 2014 No.5128743 File: 8 KB, 189x181, 1353181819884.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >you will experience cyberpunk dystopia in you lifetime

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:55:40 2014 No.5128752 File: 37 KB, 631x635, opin.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Society is fucked beyond belief.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:55:43 2014 No.5128753 >posts on 4chan >complains about anti-social technology

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:56:35 2014 No.5128756 >>5128657 Did you rip his phone away and tell him to pay attention to you when you're talking?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:09:31 2014 No.5128774 >>5128756 No, they have defense mechanism should you rip their phone from them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:11:44 2014 No.5128777 I hope so. The world is already a shit hole where the rich and powerful dominate and destroy everyone's lives til the day we die so we may as well get some fucking cyber implants and VR goggles out of it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:13:27 2014 No.5128783 File: 332 KB, 960x1299, caveman_science_fiction.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5128640

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:17:54 2014 No.5128789 >>5128640 >>5128649 Thanks for the post, this is interesting.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:22:18 2014 No.5128795 >>5128783 Indeed

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:35:08 2014 No.5128833

I don't know if anyone here is familiar with Duncan Trussell, but he did a really cool interview on this topic recently on his show. Here's a link:

>http://duncantrussell.com/survios

Skip to -1:03:20 to hear the interview.

Discussion on how VR could change work, recreation for humanity, also the more negative aspects such as VR porn addiction and opium dens. Check it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:37:46 2014 No.5128840

>>5128833
>the VR version of an opium den
>dozens of individuals wasting away on dirty pillows, wearing gleaming green goggles plugged into a central computing tower

Holy SHIT that's a cool image. I mean, it's depressing, but picturing it in my mind is baller.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 16:43:45 2014 No.5128857 >>5128789 I thought so too. It reminded me of chemists in the first world war who refused to concoct gas weapons because of fears it would poison their science forever.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 17:03:42 2014 No.5128907 This shit is so real it's not even philosophy anymore

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 17:09:10 2014 No.5128924 >>5128833 The fuck? >Has a good VR experience >"KURZWEIL IS RIGHT THE SINGULARITY IS COMING" This just sounds like paid advertisement.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 17:38:05 2014 No.5129015 File: 61 KB, 1020x365, 1396268709767.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5128640 obligatory

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 17:40:20 2014 No.5129026 Surely it can't be worse than real life? I just want my soma and feelies.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 17:45:51 2014 No.5129049 >>5128840 Where do I sign up?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 17:55:06 2014 No.5129079 File: 2.64 MB, 960x960, 1404548567977.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5128640 >Are we really heading towards a solipsistic dystopia, /lit/? >Asking about this on 4chains

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:11:22 2014 No.5129134 I still cant imagine the VR thing picking up steam for another 20 years. Right now its really only limited to video games, and only a small percentage of people take games seriously enough to go out and buy a $500 pair of goggles.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:11:52 2014 No.5129136

I think these fears are still premature.

Regarding kids with cell-phones: yes, it's annoying if a kid is into his cell phone, but adults do this too. It is something that you should point out to them, immediately, and try to get them more conscious of being "here." It's something that nerdy kids have always done, whether with a comic-book, a game, or a cell-phone. Overstimulation, though more accessible now, is still the same problem it has always been, and can still be dealt with.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:18:41 2014 No.5129159 >>5129136 Nobody cares if you're offended that people would rather talk to their friends then you at work or whatever, grandpa. I'm talking to you on my phone right now.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:22:01 2014 No.5129173

>>5129159
I'm not saying I am literally a dick to everyone who does that - I'm just pointing out that while it's a problem, it's not that big of a problem. It's not like your brain is mush because you spend all day on your cell-phone - you're learning things and engaging with people for a lot of that time.

>>	trumancapote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Sat Jul 12 18:38:44 2014 No.5129224 >>5129079 i fully realised and embrace the irony i'm glad you have too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:40:26 2014 No.5129227 >>5129134 >A book is the one exceptional medium of stimulation that cannot be enhanced through online interaction at the time of consumption. truman you need to stop

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:44:50 2014 No.5129239 fuck real life, i can't wait to be uploaded

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:46:59 2014 No.5129244 僕として… バーチャルリアリティが当然大好きですよ三次元人はぶたですよ

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:47:11 2014 No.5129246 >>5128640 Go away, you're not the real truman capote.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:49:51 2014 No.5129255 >>5129246 do the voice then we'll believe you

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:50:52 2014 No.5129260 Funny, i'm working on a novel that covers exactly that topic. Except that it's rather Sci-Fi and plays in a dystopian mega-city. But the topic is small-scale, a boy spending all his days in an alternate reality.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:53:32 2014 No.5129266 >>5129260 Ready Player One?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 18:56:06 2014 No.5129275 >>5129266 Just read the summary, nah not like that. The focus is more on the isolated life of a single person. The drastic changes from city life (getting food etc.) and the utopian VR-reality are the main theme.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:01:27 2014 No.5129301 >>5129260 the boy is a cripple and the alternate reality is way bettter than he could ever have in real life

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:02:51 2014 No.5129309 >>5128657 >wiki articles >infinite knowledge

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:07:14 2014 No.5129325 >>5128640 I have't read it, but you're going to get my opinion anyway. Without simulating touch i.e: full holodeck mode, VR will have no more addictive potential than current video games. Why would it?

trumancapote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Sat Jul 12 19:09:51 2014 No.5129330
File: 28 KB, 500x316, leaningdog.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5129227

Novels are the original VR. They're the best way for someone to allow the entry of another into entire their noumenon universe of private experiences.

When you read a novel, there are no physical barriers to overcome or no rules to transgress. It's an inherently solo experience, yet there is that unmistakable feeling of familiarity (and perhaps even oneness) every time a good novel plugs you into an author's soul.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:11:34 2014 No.5129335 >>5129325 turns out haptics may not be necessary to achieve 'presence'.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:11:48 2014 No.5129336 >>5129275 doesn't sound half bad m8

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:14:01 2014 No.5129343

>>5128640
It doesn't take a genius to see that this product will be abused as nightmarishly powerful opium. Anyone who frequents 4chan should know exactly how bad VR's effects will get when every unemployed nerd retreats into their own deranged utopia where every day is harem day.

>>5128740
Which is why no one will lift a finger to stop it. Only a handful of people will complain/resign from their position as matrix engineer while everyone else will piss themselves with glee.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:15:10 2014 No.5129349 >>5129335 Do you have further information on this? I think it would simply bring home to the user that their VR is not complete.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:17:04 2014 No.5129357 most open end games are just as boring as reality.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:17:10 2014 No.5129359 >>5129349 do you wake up in dreams when you are physically touched?

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:22:21 2014 No.5129381

>>5129359
Large parts of your brain are shut off when you dream, rationality goes out of the window, amongst other things. I don't think Rift's technology will be leveraging this, and even if it could, I'm not sure that dreams include realistic physical senation.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:23:58 2014 No.5129388 >>5129357 >tfw experiencing ennui in a sandbox game

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:24:13 2014 No.5129389 >>5128640 >solipsistic dystopia This is the status quo in any case.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:33:27 2014 No.5129424

Television is still pretty terrible. I dont watch tv very often, but I was just watching a movie and I had 10 minuets of movie time, 5 minuets of ads. After this routine has happened four times, a whole hour has passed.

So this is basically the same amount of ads from television, just directly in front of your eyeballs/ears. Its the same effect from watching a television, but more involved and obnoxious. Personally, I will partake in neither.

>>	trumancapote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Sat Jul 12 19:54:28 2014 No.5129500 >>5129424 thank god for the BBC.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 20:21:57 2014 No.5129616 >>5128640 So when do I get to fuck Miku?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 20:23:19 2014 No.5129623 >>5129616 ~15 years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 20:27:55 2014 No.5129646 >>5129623 Get a load of this pessimistic faggot. In fifteen years our AIs will have transformed most of the universes into computanium.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:35:09 2014 No.5129846 There is nothing wrong with it IF we have permanent security, i.e. AI parent-bots to take care of us (brotip: WE DON'T HAVE THIS)

« 零 » !Ry9.FWKNDY Sat Jul 12 21:38:21 2014 No.5129857
File: 11 KB, 100x100, AREIZOO 100x100.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5128640
>Are we really heading towards a solipsistic dystopia, /lit/?

I DO NOT THINK SO; THE VERY AWARENESS OF THE POTENTIAL DANGERS OF UNETHICAL USE OF TECHNOLOGY PRECLUDES THE REALIZATION OF THOSE DANGERS.

IF A GLOBAL DYSTOPIA EVER COMES TO BEING, IT WILL CERTAINLY NOT BE CAUSED BY TECHNOLOGY ITSELF, BUT BY OTHER FACTORS PERIPHERALLY USING TECHNOLOGY ONLY AS A MEANS.

>>	« 零 » !Ry9.FWKNDY Sat Jul 12 21:40:18 2014 No.5129864 >>5129857 I MEAN: "INTO BEING". APOLOGIES.

>>	onionring !Rrxa7zePwI Sat Jul 12 21:42:08 2014 No.5129871 it's not narcissism, just gratifying wish fulfillment and various pleasing fantasies.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:42:14 2014 No.5129872 >>5128783 i love this comic >>5129857 go fuck yourself with your double-edged sword. nuclear weapons will burn the atmposphere. the lhc will create a black hole that will swallow the earth etc

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:42:57 2014 No.5129877 File: 255 KB, 800x800, autism.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5129857 >COCK COCK COCK COCK; COCK COCK COCK COCK COCK COCK COCK "COCK" COCK COCK COCK COCK COCK. COCK COCK COCK

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:44:00 2014 No.5129883 >>5129877 When I live in my VR machine I will eat cock all day not even kidding.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:44:07 2014 No.5129884 >>5129877 I MEAN: "I LOVE COCK". APOLOGIES.

>>	onionring !Rrxa7zePwI Sat Jul 12 21:45:10 2014 No.5129887 oops misread your thing w/e captcha is so annoying

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:47:35 2014 No.5129894 >>5129388 You hit the nail on the head. No matter how far you try to run from the boredom that is existence it will catch up with you in every imaginable alternate reality.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:52:12 2014 No.5129909 File: 73 KB, 600x535, 1397907698283.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5129877 DID SOMEONE SAY COCK? LOCK AND LOADED, BETTER GET EM SPICS AND NIGGERS AND FAIRY BOYS, COMRADES HOO AH SEMPER NIGGA

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:58:01 2014 No.5129928 >>5129894 Somehow, I think I can handle being bored of having my own harem of virtual waifus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:04:18 2014 No.5129953 >>5129928 It depends on how big their cocks are.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:08:35 2014 No.5129964

>>5129894

It does, until it doesn't. Non-occasional marijuana is notorious for killing ambition - by enabling the escape of the existential boredome and angst you're talking about 0 and these days is often used to heighten immersion in video games. (inb4 potheads come and tell me that being high is the same as being sober but more fun.) Combined that with a VR helmet, a better escape, easily accessible pot, and you'll end up with some vegetables of hedonism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:34:31 2014 No.5130024 >>5129964 >boredome This is what my virtual world will be called.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:36:25 2014 No.5130028 File: 70 KB, 600x489, lucid.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >all these people not knowing about lucid dreaming

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:38:27 2014 No.5130033 >>5130028 save it for the terence mckenna forum you normally lurk

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:39:46 2014 No.5130039 >>5130028 Implying you can get anything but talking puppets.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:40:17 2014 No.5130041 >>5129964 >tfw I was actually daydreaming about vape hits and VR goggles today You know me too well, anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:41:50 2014 No.5130045 >>5130033 Lucid dreaming is legit, anon. >>5130039 >implying you can get anything but talking puppets in VR >implying you can get anything but talking puppets IRL

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:44:55 2014 No.5130054
File: 65 KB, 640x777, 1401860131878.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5130045

>implying you can get anything but talking puppets IRL

Bro don't even get me started on all those worthless sheeple lol they will never be true gentlemen like us. Great post.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 22:55:39 2014 No.5130071 >>5130028 I tried this it's bullshit all I got was a paralyzed body for 10 seconds

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:05:03 2014 No.5130087 these emoticons.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:08:04 2014 No.5130092 >>5129964 It's not a problem, really. If you think about it, that is the ultimate end of all ambition.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:08:37 2014 No.5130093 >>5130028 I would guess most people who excessively praise it haven't actually experienced it in any "meaningful" sense. I read three books on that shit and all of them were about 300 pages of "it's so cool man"

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:09:11 2014 No.5130095

>>5130045
>implying they're not going to quickly combine drugs with VR in order to induce semi-dream states, or states in which the unreality the VR puppets won't matter.
>Implying they couldn't also circumvent the talking puppet problem by including augmented forms of socializing, like the OP's letter author is afraid of.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:10:59 2014 No.5130098 >>5130071 >all I got was a paralyzed body for 10 seconds fuck im jealous, I haven't even been able to achieve that i think i hate my life too much to do anything other than fall as far out of consciousness as possible when I lay down to go to sleep

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:11:52 2014 No.5130099 >>5129964 >>5130093 But it is! It is a problem if everyone goes into a vegetative state. That can only be supported for so long until shit blows up and we're all back to square fucking zero. Look no further than China's fun ride on opium.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:13:02 2014 No.5130100 >>5130028 I'm almost certain lucid dreaming is an epic meme, I've been trying hard for years to do it to no avail.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:19:14 2014 No.5130109 >>5130071 wake induced isn't the only method

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:22:05 2014 No.5130115

>>5130100
It's incredibly hard to just do it, it happens to me whenever I binge drink or smoke some DMT.

I sleep with the air conditioner on blast because sleeping in the cold can help bring about nightmares, night terrors or that depersonalized half-dream where you watch yourself sleep from the 3rd person.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:25:25 2014 No.5130118 >>5130099 >implying people care about sustainability It's a majority who hold the 'Who cares I'll be dead by then' mindset.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:26:32 2014 No.5130120 File: 989 KB, 1465x2137, 1395110669570.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5130115 >whenever I binge drink or smoke some DMT You belong in a museum, degenerate.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:27:13 2014 No.5130121
File: 303 KB, 900x900, matrioshka brain.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The fun thing is that once full immersion virtual reality is available, 99% of the population will spent their whole life on it and only the Amish and likewise people will keep going on earth.

After a few more centuries, the people who got into VR will become part of mythology.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:28:16 2014 No.5130124 >>5130118 Which in itself is a magnificent opportunity for the minority who DO care to seize power. To be a king of the waking world while so many sleep- that's enticing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:28:23 2014 No.5130125 >>5130120 That seems more a compliment than a condemnation.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:29:33 2014 No.5130129 File: 109 KB, 356x364, 1397244431806.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5130125

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:34:38 2014 No.5130138 >>5130124 It's interesting to imagine a world where more than half its population has locked itself indoors.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:36:27 2014 No.5130141 >>5130124 Hilariously it's going to be religious nuts. Enjoy being pulled from your digiwomb be ISIS.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:42:20 2014 No.5130147 >>5130141 Before we commit to that sort of thing, we'd be insane not to ensure its security. Glassing the damned Muzzies would be entirely prudent at that stage.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:44:12 2014 No.5130152 >>5130121 I think that will be the final stage for human civilization. A giant matrix paradise with every mind uploaded on it. Kind of scary and wonderful at the same time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:45:07 2014 No.5130156 I can't find the HN link. Where is it?

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:45:31 2014 No.5130157

The thing is, it isn't as extreme as opium. It's psychological addiction, to escapist media, compounding with other psychological addiction, to weed, etc.
Addiction to this kind of thing is arguably wide-spread in the way caffeine addiction is prevalent right now. All you need to do is tweak some factors and it'll deepen for the people currently into it. They'll work the same jobs, normally shitty white-collar or service ones, but their free time will become more and more locked down into this sort of thing as traditional narrative media or informational media can't compete as much to give them pleasure.
The very problem is that it'll never be total like opium, where you just go into a room and lie there through all your commitments and your life collapses. There's always the pot-heads who play with the guitar because they want to be good or something, or who get way into politics, but the problem is that this kind of thing sucks up enough free time that it precludes the sustained study and practice that leads to achievement of real magnitude, and it often also precludes real social bonds because people are fixated on something external, and this is especially true of the private or semi-private experiences video games offer.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:46:33 2014 No.5130160 >>5130157 for >>5130099

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:48:35 2014 No.5130164 >>5129964 as someone who has both done drugs and experienced vr, this will come to pass. not for 100% of the population or even 40%, but it will be a social issue eventually.

>>	RobertJCross Sat Jul 12 23:54:30 2014 No.5130174 >>5130100 Go to CVS and find melatonin spray. Spray three spritzes on your tongue every night. After about a week or less, you'll be flying around the Earth.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:54:44 2014 No.5130175 >>5129134 20 years? fuck no. Some form of VR in every household in 10 years max. Probably before the end of the decade.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 23:58:31 2014 No.5130188 File: 2.19 MB, 388x218, dank ass weed.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5130175

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:01:15 2014 No.5130198

>>5130100
I've had it happen a couple of times. For me, the hardest part was maintaining the dream after I realized that I was in a dream. It was really easy to wake up after that point. It was really cool. I had to practice dreaming to get to it, also I worked on inducing sleep paralysis and stuff to help bring it on.

The thing that worked the best was setting an alarm a few hours before you want to finish sleeping, waking up, taking a caffeine pill, and going back to sleep before the caffeine pill kicked in. When I'd do this, it was incredibly easy to be aware that I was falling asleep, and I would wake up and fall asleep rapidly enough that I had a bunch of small lucid dreams. Some were out of body hyperspace warp experiences, one I met Salvador Dali eating eyeballs from a spoon, and others were just every day happenings dreams.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:04:13 2014 No.5130202 >>5130100 I've had a few short ones and it was actually glorious. Like almost tears of happiness when I woke up and a happy rest of the day glorious. My skills are fickle as fuck though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:05:41 2014 No.5130204 >>5130198 Did WILD ever work for you? I just get into rapid eye movement while still awake and the twitching and paralysis part but never into a dream.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:09:45 2014 No.5130212

>>5130152

>I think that will be the final stage for human civilization. A giant matrix paradise with every mind uploaded on it.

It would be a necessary part of a Type 2 civilization for humanity, if we were ever to get there.

At that point individualism would be seem as a primitive quality.

Now that individualism as a primitive quality shouldn't be seen as either good or bad in relation to the individualism that we currently have, as our modes of consciousness will be so vastly different that you couldn't really say that either form then or now is more necessarily "human", as our conception of that would've naturally evolved.

But we will almost certainly go through some sort of world war or massive natural event before that even comes near to happening. Nationalism and avarice in all of its forms would need to be seen as primitive, and that quite simply isn't going to happen for a very very long time. It would require a cataclysmic event on a global scale, because the trenches of nationalism have been dug too deep to simply part with them through normal diplomacy.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:12:19 2014 No.5130216 >>5130174 I already take melatonin on the reg though.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:14:44 2014 No.5130219 The Ubermensch is coming prepare your anuses for the answer

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:15:05 2014 No.5130222

>>5130212
I honestly think that we're going to get the tech to become a spacefaring civilization and STILL have the problem of nationalism. I keep track of certain technologies that would lead us to the stars, and many of them are developing rather promisingly. But the future won't be Star Trek. The future will be Dune with its factions and great houses jockeying for power, treachery around every corner, poison in every cup.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:18:57 2014 No.5130226 >>5128783 Underated post, neo-luddites circle jerk some undefined natural for some undefined reason

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:21:03 2014 No.5130232 >>5130222 You know, I knew reading Dune as a child and loving the universe would pay off. Star Wars fans laughed at me. Trekkies hardly knew my references, but damnit if I wont emulate Stilgar in 30 years.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:21:42 2014 No.5130235

HOLY SHIT THAT'S WHERE I GOT THE IDEA FROM

Pendragon Book 4: The Reality Bug. Science fiction, it's a fairly decent YA novel. At least read the Wikipedia page, /lit/. It's all about a hedonistic dystopia. The other books in the series (10 novels total), taking place in other universes, present other interesting concepts in a teen-friendly fashion.

Fuck, the later books involve the protagonist constantly being reminded that the universe doesn't give a shit about him. It's all very deep without being edgy or melodramatic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:24:17 2014 No.5130240 File: 1.27 MB, 780x1198, 1402542876522.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5130235 >At least read the Wikipedia page, /lit/. Yeah, no.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:29:21 2014 No.5130251 >>5130235 Isn't thst by the guy that wrote The Morpheus Road? He's a decent author and is brilliant when it comes to weaving plots, but his writing style is cringeworthy for any /lit/erate. Unique, but cringeworthy. First-person journal style.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:46:59 2014 No.5130288

>>5130157
>it isn't as extreme
Yet. This is just the first stage but it can very easily be taken to its logical conclusion, which is the exact same as opium use: total escape from reality. That is the inherent aim of all such pursuits, even if initially they are not "extreme".

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 00:59:51 2014 No.5130315 >>5130164 >will be a social issue eventually It's a social issue right now because we're seriously discussing it in this very thread.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 01:06:16 2014 No.5130332 >>5130121 all we need is a single truly intelligent artificial being that's it it will carry the torch

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 01:18:39 2014 No.5130355 >>5130332 What we need is The Culture

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 01:22:31 2014 No.5130365 >>5130332 What we need is The Culture.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 01:23:52 2014 No.5130369 File: 17 KB, 640x374, solaris_lg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5130121 We am become Solaris

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 01:24:38 2014 No.5130371

>>5130288

Did you read the post? Something as extreme as opium would cause social collapse and social backlash even if that's the explicit aim. You'd need something like basic income, full automation, communism etc, in place already to have people really slouch into it 24/7. It'll probably exist parasitically in a capitalist democracy, meaning it'll be bent to capitalist aims, allowing people to function as workers, fulfill basic social obligations, pursue some ambitions, but while providing an easy alternative, low investment high payout, for everything but the basics, and offering a maximally renewing, quickly obsolescence type market. Become a new person every year, 500 bucks.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 01:27:39 2014 No.5130377 >>5130371 >to have people really slouch into it 24/7 It's happening right now. No communism necessary.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 03:41:25 2014 No.5130601 >>5129616 Pretty sure you already can with the oculus rift and an automated fleshlight.

>>	trumancapote !!cO9KVBDtkqQ Sun Jul 13 03:46:35 2014 No.5130608 I love seeing how older generations react to VR. There's already so many videos of grandmas losing their minds with the oculus rift.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 04:00:03 2014 No.5130644

>>5130377
open your eyes. that's true for maybe 5% of the human population right now. a species-spanning VR pleasure-matrix would require the support of a self-sustaining, communist economy, most likely attended to by a global artificial intelligence. imagine the corn fields being tended by robots, each connected to and run by the same AI that knows the exact human population and exactly how many calories each needs to stay alive while their minds roam free in a virtual paradise

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 13:12:54 2014 No.5131915 I really like the idea of plugging myself into a computer and forgetting this squalid physical world forever.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 13:22:05 2014 No.5131938 File: 21 KB, 640x360, 140415105128-blood-moon-time-lapse-irpt-horizontal-gallery.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] We are already there we are nearing the inhuman apex we deal in shadows

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 13:23:40 2014 No.5131942

>>5131915
Me too, sometimes.

Honestly I think we should have this as an alternative to people who lose all hope in the world. Instead of bullying/failures at finding a mate driving Eliot Rogers into a homicidal rage we could have just given him a virtual world to live in.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 13:24:49 2014 No.5131945 My roomate had an Oculus for a few weeks and I used it a bit but it mostly just made me nauseous. Seemed extremely gimmicky

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 13:25:19 2014 No.5131946 I can't wait for my shota harem

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 15:15:11 2014 No.5132371 >>5130028 It takes dedication to achieve that normally, putting on glasses takes no effort.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 15:18:33 2014 No.5132383 >>5130251 >not liking Bram Stokers Dracula Go fuck yourself kid

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 15:23:30 2014 No.5132402

>>5130028
>lucid dreaming

Lucid dreaming scares the shit out of me. It's probably happened about 10 times in my life, but every time it has, every time I become aware that I am sleeping, an intense anxiety fills me and I have the overwhelming urge to wake up fearing something awful is about to happen. It's such an unpleasant experience for me.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 15:32:03 2014 No.5132434

>>5131945
That's mostly because the retail version of it is not out yet and none of the big software companies have released any large scale games or apps designed to be used with it from the ground up. When that happens it should be a much better experience for all and that is really just the start of it like the old 8bit Nintendo.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 18:34:35 2014 No.5133118 are night terrors considered lucid dreams?

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 19:37:46 2014 No.5133287

>>5129500
The BBC is a cultural Marxist propaganda outlet. For crying out loud, they made an Arthur series where they cast a black as Guinevere and a Robin Hood series where they had Robin quoting the Quran. They fired a local radio presenter who had been working for them for 30 years because he played a classic song from the 1930s that happened to contain the word "nigger" and a single person complained. Meanwhile the whole outfit is run by rich white paedophiles like Savile. Progressivism rarely descends to such depths of self-parody as the contemporary BBC.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 19:45:42 2014 No.5133319 >>5132402 I always just try to make the nearest woman suck my dick but I always shoot my wad and wake up before anything happens. >Mfw kissless virgin in my dreams too

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 19:47:51 2014 No.5133329 Why did this guy even decide to work for Valve? From the beginning, it sounds like he hates video games and online entertainment. I respect that, but I don't understand why this is the career he chose for himself.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 19:48:18 2014 No.5133331
File: 29 KB, 320x158, thumb01008.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5133287
In what way is a black actress playing a character in a fantasy drama marxist. Please include "means of production" in your answer.

Also here is a coin from the reign of Offa inscribed in arabic, a little later than the traditional date of Arthur, a lot earlier than Robin Hood who in many legends was a crusader.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 19:53:30 2014 No.5133350

>>5130028
My roommate and I were real into lucid dreaming as a freshmen in college. Sounds homo but we used to have times of the day that we would nap specifically for it and then wake up and talk about the experience to eachother. It's kind of fucked though because I always did it and dreamt of my ex and us being together again but I always just lied and said I did something else. I actually got a little addicted to sleeping because of it. Not the proudest time of my life.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:02:25 2014 No.5133380

>>5133331
Cultural Marxism != Marxism, if you`re not willing to engage except by misrepresenting what your opponent said then there is no point in carrying on a dialogue.

I refuse to believe that you are actually so blinkered that you see nothing sinister or absurd in the portrayal of a central figure of the Matter of Britain as physically like a foreign migrant with no connection to England.

In no legends does Robin quote the Quran while expressing his disdain for Christianity and the Crusades and rhapsodizing about the virtues of Islam and Arabs. Again I refuse to believe that you see nothing sinister or deliberate in the fact that he is portrayed as doing this at the very time when the people of Britain are being asked by their corporate elites to accept the imposition upon them of millions of Islamic migrant invaders.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:05:00 2014 No.5133389 >>5133287 >cultural Marxist Intothetrash.jpg

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:11:08 2014 No.5133410 >>5133389 It`s simply a useful term for an observable phenomenon and school of thought, if you know a better one I`d be happy to hear it.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:12:52 2014 No.5133414 >>5133410 Dude, do you realize.. I hope you do.. that Regular Marxism is about culture?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:13:11 2014 No.5133415 >>5133410 No true scotsman is all leftists have now that they're all vyctyms and "winning"

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:13:54 2014 No.5133417

>>5133329
I think it just stuck in his craw that Valve went with VR over AR ignoring what he thought was best and he ended up working on a project he did not really like so he's acting like its some portent of great doom to better justify his nerd bitching. He acts like he is Miles Dyson working at Cyberdyne.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:14:36 2014 No.5133418 >>5133414 You are almost as useless as butterface

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:17:10 2014 No.5133423

>>5133418
Marx's view was that culture and economics are intrinsic; so do "cultural" Marxists. If you mean it as just a name, the whatever because a label carries no meaning, but if you're using the name descriptively then you are a retard

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:21:17 2014 No.5133430

>>5133380
>>5133410
Cultural Marxism is applying the Marxist critical method to social issues.

It's not some secret society controlled by the Jewish elite brainwashing your daughter into craving black dick.

Basically the term is a massive red flag for right-wing conspiracy morons.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:22:46 2014 No.5133437

>>5133423
Cultural Marxism is distinct from Marxism, as are its concerns with culture from Marxism`s concerns with culture. However you are right in that it is in part an outgrowth of Marxism--hence the `Marxism` in the term cultural Marxism. Not all Marxists are cultural Marxists and not all Marxism is cultural Marxism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

>>5133430
No-one said anything about a conspiracy you dolt. See >>5133410.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:22:47 2014 No.5133438 File: 31 KB, 629x354, Robin Hood.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5133380 Nigga changing what those characters look and act like has been going on since forever its not just some BBC thing its a story telling thing.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:23:56 2014 No.5133442

>>5133430
Well, yeah, it's part of the natural progression of Marxist dialectics; and it's only "cultural" Marxism because of the switch to focusing on the culture product of economics than on economics, but they're still part of the same methods of analysis

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:26:00 2014 No.5133450

>>5133437
"Distinct" yes, but the label is very, very stupid, as it implies some new method of analysis that wasn't present in Marx. Honestly, just calling it Marxism would be more accurate, and neomarxism for the Zizek types who adopt Marxs views more plainly

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:26:59 2014 No.5133456 >>5133437 He just did anon, because if he can shout enough scary mean words at you maybe you'll stop disagreeing with him.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:27:05 2014 No.5133457 >>5133437 >it's on Wikipedia, therefore it's incontrovertibly correct

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:27:09 2014 No.5133459

>>5133438
That`s disingenuous; portraying Guinevere as a black African is unique to the BBC.

I fail to see how cartoon anthropomorphic representations are in any way similar to the obvious social engineering agenda of the BBC. Britain is not being re-settled by millions of talking foxes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:28:08 2014 No.5133463 >>5133457 >I want to piss and moan because my movement is about to fracture due to SJW's, lets pull out the ol' fallacy cannon again The left is disgusting

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:33:18 2014 No.5133475

>>5133463
I'm generally sympathetic to analytic philosophy, my views are generally conservative, I'm radically anti egalitarian and I have reactionary political views. So no. I'm just not stupid like you, I do not propagandize myself, I work to understand view points so I can be educated. Saying "cultural Marxism" is itself a sign that you're not very smart.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:34:32 2014 No.5133479

>>5133450
>just calling it Marxism would be more accurate

The school of thinking described by the term cultural Marxism arose many decades after Marxism itself. Marxism never conceived of concepts like white privilege. Even today there are supposedly `Marxists` who disavow anti-Westernism and identity politics (at least going by /lit/ threads). Cultural Marxism has Marxism as a foundation but it only begins to take on the form it has today with the work of the Frankfurt school and then the student movements of the 60s and 70s. It makes perfect sense to distinguish it from Marxism and cultural Marxism is the term that has stuck.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:35:15 2014 No.5133481 >>5133475 Are you actually autistic? You sound like you're literally a faggot nigger — and are objectively mad.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:36:25 2014 No.5133484 >>5133479 But anon things were different in 1870 so you're wrong ;^)

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:40:22 2014 No.5133493

>>5133479
It's still not worthy of a new name. It's not like string theory was developed and suddenly physics became "string physics". It's typical development in thought; rebranding it serves no function besides to make Marxim appear fractious in ways that it is not.

Plus; even though cultural Marxism can be an effective label, does not mean it actually is and it doesn't mean that you're using it correctly. In fact, even defining a person as a "Marxist" does nothing but reveal your tribalistic devotion to the right wing

I actually value Marxism because it provides apt analysis of power. Many of its views are legitimate. I just don't pander to the "morality" of people like you who simply construct a propaganda shell so they can view the world with rose-tinted glasses. The true answer to the right is literal totalitarianism, it's almost a contradiction to say it's not, and I absolutely would want to be the total ruler.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:41:39 2014 No.5133494 >>5133475 >radically anti egalitarian I take it in a socio-political way. Why do you think hierarchy is something we should strive for?

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:42:33 2014 No.5133497

>>5133481
Yes I have Asperger's. I just detest nothing more than the self-blinding tendencies of the right who think they can pander to equality and be conservative. Be on top and be proud, don't be self-sacrificing and support the right.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:44:09 2014 No.5133500 >>5133493 You are unbelievably irritating and I'm going to reassert that you sound autistic as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:44:20 2014 No.5133501 >using this technology to experience life in fantasy worlds >not using it for the purpose of enlightenment and transcendence >not fusing with the machine

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:47:35 2014 No.5133507

>>5133494
I don't really believe in ethics, so I can't really answer that. I do not believe equality is possible; humans can not be quantified and made equal. As a consequence, we can't "treat others equal", and for the sake of brevity I will make the analogy that if you truly never judged a book by its cover, then you're going to read a whole bunch of really shitty books.

My views on ethics then aren't derived from anything than what is "possible", since utopia, equality and other plainly stupid views are impossible, I strive to be the most unequal person on the good side. But I really don't feel any ethics are justifiable; humans have wills, they conflict, and we go forth.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:49:50 2014 No.5133514

>>5133500
I am irritating because I do not let people discuss within their own frameworks. If you allow another person to control the underlying framework, then they control the debate. No framework actually has a good foundation, so if you are smart you can take out the framework and never even have the stupid part of the debate.

Yes, it's irritating that I won't let you take off into debates where you've already structured a series of Gish gallops and "gotcha!" implied fallacies.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:50:32 2014 No.5133517

>>5133493
>It's still not worthy of a new name. It's not like string theory was developed and suddenly physics became "string physics". It's typical development in thought; rebranding it serves no function besides to make Marxim appear fractious in ways that it is not.

Your view about whether something is worthy of a "new name" or not is hardly relevant to anything... The term has been adopted and describes an existing thing. That's it.

>Plus; even though cultural Marxism can be an effective label, does not mean it actually is and it doesn't mean that you're using it correctly. In fact, even defining a person as a "Marxist" does nothing but reveal your tribalistic devotion to the right wing

I don't really know what to say to this m8, sounds like you're just claiming labels are anti-intellectual. How should people communicate?

>I actually value Marxism because it provides apt analysis of power. Many of its views are legitimate. I just don't pander to the "morality" of people like you who simply construct a propaganda shell so they can view the world with rose-tinted glasses. The true answer to the right is literal totalitarianism, it's almost a contradiction to say it's not, and I absolutely would want to be the total ruler.

Not really relevant to the discussion. I don't think I mentioned anything about whether I valued Marxism or considered its views legitimate, or described my "morality."

>>5133497
> I just detest nothing more than the self-blinding tendencies of the right who think they can pander to equality and be conservative.

You definitely can pander to equality and be conservative m8, a reactionary is not a conservative.

Also you seem to have a very incoherent and narrow view of "the right."

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:52:21 2014 No.5133522 >>5133514 I'm not even the guy who was debating with you. You're irritating because you're autistic. It is a term that's in use and you're going to see it a lot more. So you'd better get used to it, you broken fucking accident.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:54:00 2014 No.5133527 >responding to someone who unironically call himself reactionary and anti-egalitarian Oh, I forgot I was on /lit/ for a second. You guys are all about that stuff anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:54:54 2014 No.5133530 >>5133527 >He doesn't like shitposting What are you even doing

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:56:35 2014 No.5133534

>>5133507
Equality in its literal sense isn't possible, sure. I wouldn't want to challenge differences through genetic engineering anyway. A socio-political system devoid of hierarchy and implicitly one that does not distribute power based on these two axes of value(social and political worth) is possible and achievable though. Anarcho-syndicalism maybe being one of them?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 20:57:48 2014 No.5133538 >>5133527 What's wrong with being either of those things? I consider myself anti-egalitarian (absolute monarchist).

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 20:59:32 2014 No.5133540

>>5133517
>Your view about whether something is worthy of a "new name" or not is hardly relevant to anything... The term has been adopted and describes an existing thing. That's it.

But the point is, you don't even understand the differences enough for a cogent argument about it. You're just boogeymanning "cultural Marxists"; but you really don't understand where the thought changed and why (without quoting Wikipedia)

If you're claiming I can't analyze the propaganda inherent in the wording and labeling of concepts and to what items they are referring, then you're wrong.

Yes, you've been attacking "cultural Marxism" with a naivety that only becomes shallow thinkers.

In this very thread I implied a distinction between conservative and reactionary.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:01:59 2014 No.5133546

>>5129349
A lot on the hardwork for completing the Oculus Rift was dedicated to coordinating the changes on the screen with your eye movements. So not only you have 360 degree vision, but the landscape will change when you move your eyes exactly as if you were on open space. According to thos who have tried, this makes the experience surprisingly real (if sometimes dizzying). The technology is not perfect yet but when they have definitely fixed that eye-coordination issue it'll probably be rather compelling even without touch.

>>5130147

>Glassing the damned Muzzies
>glassing

>Hey Sergent Rock, Muslmis incoming, what do we do ?
>Pour glass on those motherfuckers
>Hell, yeah !
>*sounds of glassthrower being switched on*
>>5133459
> Britain is not being re-settled by millions of talking foxes.

Too bad. That would be improving the country in about every thinkable way.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:03:41 2014 No.5133550 File: 85 KB, 760x472, 1393937254821.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5133546 You fuckers say the damndest things.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:04:24 2014 No.5133551 >>5133540 You can though and it is the frankfurt school. You've been told this, probably repeatedly over a long period of time. Go die of ASD pls.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:05:45 2014 No.5133553 >>5133522 I don't care what you call me

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:06:05 2014 No.5133555 If anything VR will save us

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:06:32 2014 No.5133557

>>5133540
>But the point is, you don't even understand the differences enough for a cogent argument about it. You're just boogeymanning "cultural Marxists"; but you really don't understand where the thought changed and why (without quoting Wikipedia)

>If you're claiming I can't analyze the propaganda inherent in the wording and labeling of concepts and to what items they are referring, then you're wrong.

>Yes, you've been attacking "cultural Marxism" with a naivety that only becomes shallow thinkers.

All these unfounded assertions about me, all these words put into my mouth... You know, I bet you think the reason people don't like talking to you is that you're too intelligent for them to deal with.

>In this very thread I implied a distinction between conservative and reactionary.

And yet you clearly don't have a very clear grasp of that distinction based on >>5133497.

But the other guy is right. Truly this is autism.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:06:47 2014 No.5133558 >>5133527 >cultural Platonism >unironically

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:06:57 2014 No.5133560 >>5133553 >4chan cares who I am!!!! Not that guy, but you're a joke, bro. I bet if we could see how you live, we'd all never stop laughing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:07:23 2014 No.5133562 >>5133550 I'm >>5133546 and not a Brit. But I agree with you. >>5133553 Not the guy, but if you don't care you shouldn't bother responding.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:09:16 2014 No.5133564

>>5133534
"Power" occurs in all relationships; "hard to quantify or spot" power is not the same as it not existing. A person who has very good social skills can manipulate people to act without they being fully cognizant of the manipulation; as such people with very good social skills create an implied power heirarchy in all social relations

It's been recorded that people with very good social skills are some of the biggest manipulators

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:10:29 2014 No.5133569 >>5133538 He implied consensus and implied radical stupidity without argument. Nothing complicated in his post

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:11:28 2014 No.5133573 >>5133522 Are you mad, Anon?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:13:34 2014 No.5133582 >>5133573 4U

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:14:28 2014 No.5133584 >>5133551 Can you tell me about the Frankfurt school's ideas?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:16:37 2014 No.5133593 >>5133584 To destroy the concepts of race division and cultural objectivity to ensure things like the holocaust don't happen again. It is literally jewish social engineering.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:18:09 2014 No.5133598 >>5133557 In the quote I used "conservative" in the American sense.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:19:11 2014 No.5133601 >>5133562 Good point.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:19:17 2014 No.5133603 Cultural Marxism is a silly boogeyman used by reactionaries to scare children. It does not meaningfully impact policy or society, and is not even dominant in the academic circles it inhabits.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:20:13 2014 No.5133606 >>5133584 >>5133593 Lol.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:20:33 2014 No.5133609 >>5133593 Wow. This sounds like the -ism for me. Can you point me to their key texts?

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:21:54 2014 No.5133617

>>5133564
I meant you can create a socio-political system in which power is non-existent in the sense that the system places no value on it. A lack of a socio-political hierarchy annuls the value of power within that paradigm. Sure, there will be micro power relations, at a local inter-personal level, but that is not what I meant. It's the macro power relations that I'm referring to: classism, institutional power, economic power and all the stuff that we now take for granted because of capitalism and most of the systems that we've built for ourselves..

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:23:59 2014 No.5133622
File: 8 KB, 260x258, 1394593207471.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

post yfw aliens finally discover earth a hundred years from now and just find pyramids full of grinning human beings with their brains hooked up to computers and their dicks being worked by autoholes.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:24:24 2014 No.5133624 >>5133603 Well, it depends on who is speaking. Just because you use the same words doesn't mean those words effectively describe the same subject.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:27:05 2014 No.5133627

>>5133617
I think civilization requires macro-power relationships.

While it's true that we could degenerate into tiny, autonomous communities and abolish most forms of discrimination, we'd lose a lot more than simply those things.

>>5133624
So you intend on using the term as a broad slander for vaguely progressive ideas? Well that's fine enough, but the majority of the time, using it in that way comes with the nasty assumption of grand conspiracy against "muh race".

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:28:37 2014 No.5133632 File: 676 KB, 2920x1616, cyberpunk.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5133555 I can't imagine why anyone would not want all the technology we read about in Cyberpunk books to be a real thing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:29:44 2014 No.5133634 >>5133593 you have not read any frankfurt school, go kill yourself

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:29:52 2014 No.5133635 >>5133622 As if any aliens will come, they are comfortable in their own VR pyramids. VR could actually be a good candidate for the great filter.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:30:57 2014 No.5133639 >>5133617 Wait, you think a system without power is possible?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:31:30 2014 No.5133643 File: 50 KB, 704x396, kaoru_yamazaki.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5133622

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:31:37 2014 No.5133646 >>5133632 We are living in a cyberpunk world, why not have the technology to go along with it.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:31:59 2014 No.5133648 >>5133627 I don't use it as anything because its not a term in my standard lexicon

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:35:45 2014 No.5133659

>>5133627
>I think civilization requires macro-power relationships.
go on..
> we'd lose a lot more than simply those things.
Like what? Is it because you think it would lessen cooperation amongst ourselves? I really think that the macro power hierarchy that capitalism (for instance) enforces is merely coordinating cooperation towards producing and distributing capital from those at the top of the scale to the bottom, but that's it. Cooperation wouldn't die out, as I think it's natural and there are many ways of incentivizing and augmenting it. Sorry if I was assuming and it wasn't not coop you were thinking of.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:38:08 2014 No.5133668

>>5133639
I still have a feeling you don't understand what I mean by power. I've defined what I mean by the term so I'm afraid I'll have to refer you back to wherever the fuck that post is. Yes, I think anarcho-syndicalism would be an example of a socio-political system devoid of hierarchies in the sense that I have already provided.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:40:19 2014 No.5133674 File: 245 KB, 400x200, 1392649509291.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5133622

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 21:43:11 2014 No.5133684

>>5133668
Oh I see. But hierarchies do form naturally, don't they? A heirarchy can exist whether or not it's codified into a system. In fact, that aspect of analysis is basically what neomarxism is about

Except, far too many people who study it are unable to understand the raw power that exists and have codified themselves into a system as completely retarded as the main one

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:43:16 2014 No.5133685 File: 32 KB, 341x450, Adolf Hitler.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5133622 Lebensraum nigga

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:46:20 2014 No.5133693

>>5133659
I think the Hegelian/Marxist perspective on history is innately flawed. Progress and dialectical relationships do not define particular moments except when we explicitly look to define them in that way. Social efficiency isn't the goal of civilization, I think, so regardless of how well we cooperate or compete in any specific order, there are features of the human experience that are going to persist and be valuable.

Ideology is a distinctly modernist notion, so it pays unconscious lip-service to the specter of "utility", but I'm not interested in that. This is a selfish perspective, but I think it's more important that the world remain interesting than that it become comfortable, safe, and productive.

As an example, I think that victory through adversity is more valuable than an assured victory. The things that make life difficult and painful are the things that make life interesting, and so I'm not particularly excited about the prospect of altering this magnificent drama for the sake of removing them.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:51:27 2014 No.5133704

>>5128640
So many idiots will welcome these new technologies with open arms, not even realizing that the very existence of these things could bring about massive societal consequences. Iphones and tablets are harmless enough, but do you really trust any gov't with singularity-level tech? I don't even trust them with nuclear weapons, much less whatever new destructive mechanisms will come about in a post-singularity world. Maybe you should quite spamming "hurr luddite" and actually read a book or two. I cannot caution enough against the premature acceptance of any culturally, economically, or otherwise socially significant advances in technology. These new advances must be considered thoroughly and heavily regulated-do you trust your gov't to regulate them properly?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:51:58 2014 No.5133706 oh i see, it's the shit phase in /lit/'s cycle. thanks for your useless contribution retards.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:52:57 2014 No.5133710 Tripfags need to go.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:53:35 2014 No.5133712 >>5129857 Rei, you can finally fuck a child! Plus, since when do you care about humanity?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:53:57 2014 No.5133715 >>5133704 sensible post still doesn't negate >>5133706

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:54:33 2014 No.5133718 >>5133706 profound

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:54:55 2014 No.5133720 >>5130120 Why is jughead so mad?

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:55:58 2014 No.5133722

Fuck "real".

These are the same type of shitheads who are opposed to cloning. These people are the dead weight that are preventing us from advancing as a species. Science has the power to reshape our morality, and yet they use it to strangle science.

Call me fedora if you will. It is downright amoral to hinder the development of what could potentially cure diseases and reduce the misery of many people. It is cowardice not to at least try.

It is also amoral not to let tumblr finally get to be what they want to be, clearly "real" life is quite painful to them.

Plus don't worry, shit'll be so expensive that there will always be people who can't afford it. So there, you can have your noble savage third world fantasies too.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:57:50 2014 No.5133731 >>5133722 You don't sound like a fedora m8, you sound like an edgy teenager.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 21:58:15 2014 No.5133735 >>5133722 You don't think any caution is advisable?

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:02:11 2014 No.5133741

>>5133684
Yes, hierarchies form naturally according to objective variables. You've got hierarchies when it comes to intelligent people (although you'd have to break down intelligence into quantifiable categories), athletes, etc. These hierarchies however, have no inherent political or social value, as they are objective.

Hierarchies can also form when the axes of the graph describe subjective variables. However, these subjective axes need to be fixed by the system in order to have some socio-political relevance. For example capitalism that lets power relations be defined by axes like profit, means of production, etc; absolute monarchism defines power relations on the axes of bloodline and absolute control. All I'm saying is that we can abolish socio-political hierarchies by not fixing the damned X-Y-... axes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:04:06 2014 No.5133746 >>5133741 What I don't understand is why you are convinced that abolishing "socio-political hierarchies" is beneficent or desirable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:05:20 2014 No.5133751 >>5133497 Are you sure you want to live in a rigidly heirachical society? Neurotypicals will end up at the top, and once they're there it'll be very hard to displace them.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:07:30 2014 No.5133759 >>5133693 What do you think is the goal of civilization then? If not social efficiency? Also if you want an interesting world, do you not find capitalism so fucking boring in its one-dimensional scope?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:10:14 2014 No.5133762 >>5133759 I'm hardly interested in perpetuating capitalism. I find almost everything about it revolting. But it certainly creates more drama than the utopian systems offered by your breed.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:11:27 2014 No.5133764

>>5133746
because it would make us get along much better. also, I don't like the web of inter-subjective values that is indirectly or directly (although I don't have the time, nor the taste for conspiracies) created by placing capital at the center of our socio-political system. mainly because I think it's fucking boring and anti-humanistic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:11:57 2014 No.5133766 >>5133762 I'd much rather get my drama in a zombie VR game than on the streets of Mogadishu. Wouldn't you?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:13:30 2014 No.5133775 VR may be the only way we may ever reach a utopia.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:13:54 2014 No.5133778 >>5133762 hah, sure, if that's the drama you like. jersey-shore drama may be cheap, but it sure is intense. what is my breed?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:15:10 2014 No.5133786 >>5133766 sorry for derailing the thread, but we weren't really talking about VR.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:15:53 2014 No.5133788 >>5133766 I'm all for the VR revolution, but I don't expect it will actually happen.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:17:44 2014 No.5133798 >>5133762 >>5133764 God you sound like such an inane, self-satisfied faggot. "Drama," "boring," anti-capitalism... In reality all you are is a garden-variety hedonist.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 22:19:12 2014 No.5133804 >>5133693 >Ideology is a distinctly modernist notion Can you expand on this idea?

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:22:11 2014 No.5133821

>>5133798
yet your referencing of two people with very different views as far as what they'd like our socio-political future to look like, indicates plebeian reading comprehension capabilities and/or 0 abstraction skills, since based on your reading of our posts you think we project the same views...

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:24:11 2014 No.5133829

>>5133786
I know. But I was making a point about tooth and claw capitalism induced drama vs utopia induced drama.
>>5133788
Maybe. But I don't think the entertainment drama resulting from an unstable world is in any way makes up for the suffering resulting from the same.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:27:34 2014 No.5133840

>>5133798
You got two different people there, ace. I'm 762, 764 is some other guy.

I won't lie that I'm enticed by hedonism, but I'm also not averse to hypocrisy. I can believe in righteousness without engaging in righteous behavior, you know.

>>5133829
I have no desire to participate in the ritual sacrifice associated with your cult, Benthamite.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:27:41 2014 No.5133842

>>5128693
>>5128743
>>5128752
>>5128833
>>5129260
I don't know why everyone is acting like this will bring a dystopia.
Imagine having a VR machine for every living human powered and maintained by robotic workers; to put it in layman's terms, like the Matrix, except that everyone has control over their own world and can visit others.
For all intents and purposes scarcity ceases to exist as we have unlimited virtual resources; in essence a utopia.
>>5129325
You can simulate touch by messing with the brain, you can do that with any sense.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:29:01 2014 No.5133845

>>5133704
Its not a question of trust, funds, ethics or even faith when it comes to advanced technology. Its a question of time. All of this shit is coming it will most likely get here sooner than later and most of the attempts to regulate it are going to fail because money talks. The best we can do is make it safe as possible before it hits the streets and not force it to be an underground thing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:29:43 2014 No.5133850 >>5133842 >in essence a utopia. Only if you're a blinkered materialist. Many people wouldn't consider such a society utopic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:29:56 2014 No.5133852 >>5128640 I think you are a Luddite.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:30:24 2014 No.5133856 >>5133842 >You can simulate touch by messing with the brain, you can do that with any sense. That's what I was getting at. We can't do that yet.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 22:31:46 2014 No.5133866

>>5133741
>These hierarchies however, have no inherent political or social value, as they are objective.

These hierarchies are political and social value. Where from do you believe in objective quantity? There is no objective reductionist model for anything; we are only capable of anything.

But I don't see how your view works. Causal relations, especially human ones, are genuinely recursive and thus extremely complex. This is why 90% of economics has been a confused mess; it's common to view humans as these simple, dumb actors when that is not the case. Acting or observing the way humans behave inherent changes how they behave; it's like a metaphysical parody of particle physics.

But, regardless of epistemological views, when I come across a man who is much larger than me in a dark, isolated space, power forms. In this instance, there is a hierarchy. All parts of society ultimately reflect some inherent hierarchy such as, and thus "equality" is an impossibility

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:32:31 2014 No.5133871 >>5133850 A world in which you are god is better for more than materialists. Just because you have access to infinite splendor and comfort doesn't mean that you need to experience them (though I can't imagine why you'd really want to).

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:33:05 2014 No.5133874 >>5133850 >Many people wouldn't consider such a society utopic. Actually the majority of people would since they're materialists.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 22:33:37 2014 No.5133879

>>5133751
We already do live in a rigidly hierarchical society. It's impossible for anything else to be true. I can't say what I would prefer. Would I prefer a universe without the weak force? I can't say because such knowledge is not possible, apriori or aposteriori.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 22:34:56 2014 No.5133883 >>5133759 Civilization doesn't have a "goal", and anthropomorphizing concepts is a stupid method of analysis. >>5133762 Capitalism is an utterly meaningless phrase.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:37:31 2014 No.5133895 >>5133883 >Capitalism is an utterly meaningless phrase. What do you mean?

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 22:37:36 2014 No.5133896

>>5133852
Really! I want to imprison all people and stuff their bodies with tubes that modify all possibly biometrics to average values, and then properly stimulate their brains so everyone feels happy for their entire lives.

Since it will make everyone happier by definition, you are a Luddite to disagree.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 22:40:19 2014 No.5133906

>>5133895
I mean that if I were to ask ten people what capitalism means, I will get very contradictory answers, in scope, meaning and application. Since this is the case, it's a meaningless term to use until you work to establish what capitalism is in your view. My idea of "capitalism" probably won't fit into your view correctly and thus we will have a debate over meaning.

It's important in debate to identify words that have a contentious meaning and clarify your usage, to keep the debate as far away from semantics as possible.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:47:21 2014 No.5133940 >>5128640 Not everyone wants to be social.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:49:18 2014 No.5133951

>>5133866
you still don't understand my point. Let's say your running abilities are represented by a point on the objective hierarchy of running that takes into account all the relevant variables (endurance, speed, etc you name it). This hierarchy and where your point is situated are products of critical judgement (objective). Furthermore, this point does not hold an inherent socio-political value, unless the system dictates it. Socio-political hierarchies are products of value judgements (subjective), not critical judgements. Even more importantly, they are products of centralized, enforced and non-inclusive value judgements. As we don't have a way of mapping out inter-subjectivity in order to find a common denominator for our socio-political systems, all I'm saying is fuck socio-political hierarchies altogether.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 22:49:20 2014 No.5133953 >>5133940 And what people want is absolutely the best foundation for ethics, right?

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:59:48 2014 No.5133989

>>5133883
>Civilization doesn't have a "goal", and anthropomorphizing concepts is a stupid method of analysis.

I take your point, but I was merely using his analytic framework as he was saying social efficiency isn't the goal of civilization and we were discussing socio-political systems... I think social efficiency, or just getting along should be the goal of a socio-political system (yes, these have goals, as we create them with a purpose in mind).

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 22:59:58 2014 No.5133991 >>5133953 Yes

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 23:02:09 2014 No.5134002 >>5133953 >implying the masses think otherwise Just legalize marijuana and give me my VR already

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:06:59 2014 No.5134019

>>5133951
Okay, you do realize that "objective" cannot be used to describe any metaphysical analysis, right? Everything a human says or think is subjective tautologically. Both mathematics and speech are subjective modes of expression; it just so happens that mathematics is far superior in describing phenomenon than language is because it creates large complexity from axioms, meaning it has infinite descriptive potential.

I am not really following the latter half of your paragraph. Do you intend to say ethics and facts are unrelated?

I just don't understand how you relate the metaphysical sociopolitical hierarchies to phenomenon. I suppose you should explain each thought a little better, as you rapidly use new terms without helping me to understand what you mean by each

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:13:59 2014 No.5134038

>>5133989
I think a sociopolitical system is just the product of humans, speaking in reductionist terms (which I generally believe we should reduce when applicable and not cling to poorly defined metaphysics), means it can't have a "goal".

It gets complicated, though, because since people DO believe in the metaphysics and goals of society, it has to be considered in partially reductionist views.

So I don't know, I suppose. The frustration of talking about people is that if you are wise, you realize it's largely futile to talk about people.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:16:26 2014 No.5134044

>>5133991
No. All you have to do is read some materials about what people say and what people do and you know why this is nonsense

>rational actors

"Rational actors" is always a substitute in societal analysis for "stupid actors". It's a way of making generalities out of ceteris paribus truths

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 23:26:49 2014 No.5134077

>>5134019
WHEN THE FUCK HAVE I USED THE TERM ''OBJECTIVE'' TO DESCRIBE METAPHYSICAL ANALYSIS OR ANYTHING OTHER THAN ANALYSES OF PHYSICAL OCCURRENCES??? Sorry, I get really frustrated when I have to rephrase my thoughts more than 7 times. I usually don't rephrase something more than twice, but since as I've said in the past, I tolerate your tripfaggotry, I'll give it another go. Maybe examples work.

I used the term objective(critical judgement) to describe how your running scores on the hierarchy of running speeds. Then I said that has no fucking inherent socio-political value, because socio-political hierarchies are products of subjectivity (value judgements). Your running is of socio-political value if and only if our system regards it as valuable either directly or indirectly. Things that place you higher up the socio-political ladder (give you power in that system) are fixed. For example capitalism builds its hierarchy of power based on capital (I can't be very exact on the variables, so I won't name them). Based on how tangential your shit is to capital, you will score higher or lower in that hierarchy.

Now, since socio-political hierarchies are exclusive, enforced by pretty much everything (law, status quo in cultural attitudes, etc), this leads to a shitty world. So we've got two options. Either, map out subjectivity for everyone and build an inter-subjective framework which serves as a model for a socio-political power hierarchy, or forget socio-political hierarchies. Since the first implies an effort of a scale that brushes impossibility and madness, I say we should go for the second option. Anarcho-syndicalism is a potentially good model of this.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:29:58 2014 No.5134087

>>5134077
That's the problem though, there is no such thing as objectivity to the subject. Objectivity is like nothing and infinity, it's an idea we work around but true intuition of it does not happen. Even mathematics is tainted by the subject; numbers are not "objective" in any pure sense.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 23:37:44 2014 No.5134111

>>5134087
wow. okay. I'm too lazy to replace 'objectivity' with another term for occurrences in the physical world. I don't think I'm pedantic enough for that either. But you clearly are, so why not use that pedantic imagination, see my point and get over this terrible semantic hurdle that's in the way of advancing this convo.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:37:44 2014 No.5134112

>>5134077
Oh okay I think I understand now.

First off, you say "socio-political hierarchies are products of a value judgment". Okay, I agree. But you have to understand my epistemic views to get what I'm going to say next:

There is an objective underlying structure to the world that is fundamentally reductionist. Humans are not capable of achieving understanding of object. Hence, everything we do is determined by the objective, but our understanding is purely subjective. As such, your distinction between the "subjective" and "objective" value judgments fails because all human-derived judgments are subjective. Yet, all things, including the subjects are defined by the object, so there is structure and we do even find traces of this structure, that's how we can say, "Tyrone is faster than Jerry" and it has meaning.

But you see, to obfuscate the sociopolitical system within the inherent complexity of the underlying objective structure doesnt mean that you can create a system without power, it just means youre hiding the power in areas that have not been defined yet.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:38:47 2014 No.5134116 >>5134111 I just replied more directly to your arguments meat in another post. Pedanticism absolutely matters. The devil is in the detail in any argument

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 23:38:54 2014 No.5134117

>>5134087
You're aware that when there is a subject there is an object right ? The subject-object dichotomy is a way to split something that was whole, you get an object by separating from something, and that something becomes a subject in the process. Think of a chemical reaction with two different products if you will.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:45:09 2014 No.5134136

>>5134117
I don't use "object" traditionally, I'm defining it myself here. An individuals understanding of anything is a model that somehow relates to the object (call the object the totality of facts if you're Wittgenstein). Simply that the amount of data in the universe is virtually infinite (maybe infinite?) much more infinite than our brains is highly indicative of the idea that all models we create of the totality of facts is erroneous in some parts. Basically anyone who "answers" important philosophical questions is wrong.

So in any case, the model of understanding the individual creates is the "subjective" view as its the view the subject defines.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 23:52:56 2014 No.5134157

>>5134112
I see your point and I agree. I still don't feel that I was wrong in saying that "the conglomeration of matter that represents 'le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk' travels from A to B in this unit of time faster or slower than other conglomerates of matter" is objective, even by your definitions

>But you see, to obfuscate the sociopolitical system within the inherent complexity of the underlying objective structure doesnt mean that you can create a system without power, it just means youre hiding the power in areas that have not been defined yet.

Yes, maybe. I haven't thought of that. That is why I am an advocate of not building hierarchical sociopolitical systems. Hierarchies will certainly arise within those systems as well, and they might even form their own web of power relations, but they certainly won;t take the form of a centralized hierarchy by which everyone is forced to abide.

Anonymous Sun Jul 13 23:56:04 2014 No.5134174

>>5134157
ignore this part:
>I see your point and I agree. I still don't feel that I was wrong in saying that "the conglomeration of matter that represents 'le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk' travels from A to B in this unit of time faster or slower than other conglomerates of matter" is objective, even by your definitions

I see how I was wrong by your definition, but I don't know if 'your' definition is right or necessary. It certainly deserves its own thread..

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 13 23:58:14 2014 No.5134180

>>5134157
>'le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk' travels from A to B in this unit of time faster or slower than other conglomerates of matter" is objective, even by your definitions

Someone hasn't read Einsteins relativity papers.. Lol

the fundamental inability to encapsulate inter subjectivity (as you put it) basically invalidates all struggles to control inter subjectivity. It's kind of a simple proof but I suppose it works. Like I said, basically any new "perfect" system basically just obfuscates the parts that aren't perfect. It's as simple as that really

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Mon Jul 14 00:01:10 2014 No.5134191

>>5134174
Well I cannot prove that there is objective structure out there. If I'm right about it then it evades our intuition. But, if we're to think understanding has some geometry to it (PLATO WARNING!), then it's actually possible to know something is true without proving it. Now, this is specifically a rare case but there are mathematical theorems that are more or less true but cannot be proved. The Pythagorean theorem is the most famous example of this.

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 00:11:45 2014 No.5134216

>>5134180
>the fundamental inability to encapsulate inter subjectivity (as you put it) basically invalidates all struggles to control inter subjectivity.

But I don't want to control it. Not coming up with a hierarchical sociopolitical system merely sets it free as it does not centralize power around capital or whatever other systems do.

>>5134191
>mfw I forgot the pythagorean theorem is an example of that...

thanks for reminding me. I'll definitely think about this. Unfortunately, I have to get some sleep now. I think what you're essentially saying is that we don't have the tools to falsify subjectivity so that's why we cannot prove anything is 'objective'. I still have to think if this is a worthwhile semantic differentiation, but I'm too tired for this right now...

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 00:54:48 2014 No.5134346

With a VR society couldn't there be a possibility of malicious intrusion into people's VR.

You're in your perfect world and people decide to hack into your VR to fuck your day/life up. You can't even escape to your VR and you then go back to your mundane life non-VR life.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 01:10:54 2014 No.5134395 >>5133735 trial and error, mate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 01:13:40 2014 No.5134405 >>5133731 >concern for human wellbeing makes one an edgy teenager. Ever had a loved one die because their body rejected the transplant, prick?

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Mon Jul 14 01:17:27 2014 No.5134418 >>5134405 Isn't it a little strange to be aware that you're careening toward the abyss of death at lightning speed and you will be gone?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 01:17:33 2014 No.5134419 >>5134180 I have no idea what you're talking about lol

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Mon Jul 14 01:19:37 2014 No.5134426

>>5134419
Basically, if we don't have complete knowledge of all that is, how can we possibly believe in utopia? How can you make something perfect without knowing it fully?

We humans deeply misunderstand each other and the world, and yet, we want to try and create an equal society? What peculiar priorities we have.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 01:22:09 2014 No.5134430 >>5134426 you're just talking shit now bro

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 03:44:08 2014 No.5134711 >>5131915 I like the idea of killing people like you and I am a moralfag.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 03:47:02 2014 No.5134714 >>5133722 >thinking people deserve things, when they are digusting pieces of shit

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 05:13:30 2014 No.5134877 >>5130028 I've tried lucid dreaming and every time it happens I barely have any control over the dream. I can walk around and shit but I can barely influence anything else in the dream. What gives? Am I just not confident enough?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 05:25:43 2014 No.5134890 >>5133906 holy shit finally, someone aside from me gets it i'm so happy

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 09:21:38 2014 No.5135310 >>5134711 Why?

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 09:33:57 2014 No.5135330

I'm worried that you get a sensation like what one would get if they consumed sugar and processed food all the time. Things that would normally taste fine now taste bland, the only things that taste okay now are more processed shit since you've dulled your taste buds.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 10:43:22 2014 No.5135485 >>5134711 >and I am a moralfag bUT YOU ARE NOT. YOU ARE AN EDGY AS FUCK TEENAGER.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 10:45:06 2014 No.5135489 >>5135485 >implying moralfaggotry isn't edgy as fuck

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 10:47:17 2014 No.5135492 You dont need to worry about us devolving into a society dominated by virtual reality because we already live in a world that's a simulation - we're just adding another layer of simulation on top of it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 11:17:24 2014 No.5135563 File: 20 KB, 400x274, evola-1_0[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I TRIED TO WARN YOU

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 11:55:41 2014 No.5135629

>>5133804
I think that guy is wrong. From what I've read, ideology emerged out of the french revolution. That was the first conflict where there arose a struggle among conservatives (noblemen, priests, beneficiaries of the ancien regime,+britain, edmund burke, coalition powers), liberals (many deputies from the national assembly, e.g. lafayette, barnave, and mirabeau) and radicals (robespierre, saint-juste, babeuf).

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 12:13:32 2014 No.5135663

>>5128640
Whats lame about VR is, its a world someone else made for you. At least with opium, DMT, LSD, lucid dreaming, its all done by YOU.

In VR, a team of programmers made this world, you choose to explore it but they set all the rules.''

I guess my point is play and live in your own world.

Charles Bukkake !!dbC6x/DQFYo Mon Jul 14 12:24:48 2014 No.5135696

I think that VR will do the same damage that entertainment and drugs have already done but at a much larger scale. More people are going to be overstimulated and numbed due to this. Being rejected by the world for not being good enough isn't nearly as bad as the individual rejecting their world for not being good enough

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 12:34:24 2014 No.5135719 >>5128783 Yes because criticisms like 'you are playing God' and 'you are going too far' are accurate and reasonable explanations of why science should not propagate forwards in the name of betterment

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 13:02:50 2014 No.5135803 >>5128640 >I find the idea of reading a book in a VR space to be both paradoxical and unnerving. I find the idea totally unfeasible due to the amount of VR tits surrounding the VR bookshelf.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 13:13:43 2014 No.5135849 >>5135663 VR is lame because it's like the real world? Why not kill yourself, if that is how you feel?

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 18:04:45 2014 No.5137070

>>5130222
It will take a while for nationalism to return, though. If building space colonies (not planetary colonies) becomes cheap enough, people will just move away from each other. Space is fucking BIG. If you stand on one of the asteroids in the asteroid belt, you'd not even see another asteroid without a telescope.

Every faction could live in a habitat without ever having to see or interact with anyone else ever. Then if everyone starts encrypting their communications and send them via laser, people might not even know there are other people out there in a few generations.

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 18:50:09 2014 No.5137299

>Ctrl+f "viral"
>0 results

I can't believe you're all being had by this obvious ad campaign for Valve's virtual reality programs.

>HEY GUYS OUR PRODUCT IS SO REAL AND SO ENGROSSING THAT I AM AFRAID IT WILL HAVE SERIOUS REPERCUSSIONS FOR THE FUTURE OF HUMAN LIFE! THEREFORE BECAUSE I AM SO IN AWE OF THE POWER OF OUR PRODUCT I AM *gasp* RESIGNING FROM MY POST!

This dude is a computer person, he can find a job absolutely anywhere and this is all a massive publicity stunt. As we speak he is most likely getting skull in Bali. His colleagues convinced him to take one for the team because of some sexual indiscretion (or whatever) and flip his resignation into something which will generate a lot of hype and speculation for their future products.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 18:51:14 2014 No.5137303 >>5134418 Did you know that there is a skeleton living INSIDE OF YOUR BODY!

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 18:52:46 2014 No.5137309 >>5135563 No you didn't, you just took mushrooms and did yoga and wrote a bunch of deep sounding shit that could be interpreted as anything, you filthy fucking monocle'd trust fund hippy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 18:55:31 2014 No.5137317 >>5135663 Some of us know how to /3/...

Anonymous Mon Jul 14 19:57:04 2014 No.5137592

http://youtu.be/g0A__QRqbk8
"Wir haben das Glück erfunden" - sagen die letzten Menschen und blinzeln.
Sie haben die Gegenden verlassen, wo es hart war zu leben: denn man braucht Wärme. Man liebt noch den Nachbar und reibt sich an ihm: denn man braucht Wärme.
Krankwerden und Misstrauen-haben gilt ihnen sündhaft: man geht achtsam einher. Ein Thor, der noch über Steine oder Menschen stolpert!
Ein wenig Gift ab und zu: das macht angenehme Träume. Und viel Gift zuletzt, zu einem angenehmen Sterben.
Man arbeitet noch, denn Arbeit ist eine Unterhaltung. Aber man sorgt, dass die Unterhaltung nicht angreife.
Man wird nicht mehr arm und reich: Beides ist zu beschwerlich. Wer will noch regieren? Wer noch gehorchen? Beides ist zu beschwerlich. Kein Hirt und Eine Heerde! Jeder will das Gleiche, Jeder ist gleich: wer anders fühlt, geht freiwillig in's Irrenhaus.
"Ehemals war alle Welt irre" - sagen die Feinsten und blinzeln.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 20:11:33 2014 No.5137641 >>5137592 very underrated game.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 14 20:36:51 2014 No.5137727 >>5130121 And the meek shall inherit the Earth.

Advanced search
Text to find
Subject [?]Search by post subject. Leave empty for any.
Username [?]Search for user name. Leave empty for any user name.
Tripcode [?]Search for tripcode. Leave empty for any.
Email [?]Search by email. Leave empty for any.
Filename [?]Search by image filename. Leave empty for any.
From Date [?]Enter what date to start searching from. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
To Date [?]Enter what date to start searching until. Format is YYYY-MM-DD
Image hash
Search in	All Posts OPs Only
Deleted posts	Show all posts Show only deleted posts Only show non-deleted posts
Internal posts	Show all posts Show only internal posts Show only archived posts
Order	New posts first Old posts first
Capcode	All Posts Only by Users Only by Mods Only by Admins Only by Developers
Results	Posts Threads
Action	[ Simple ]