Who do you prefer more ? George R.R. Martin or J.R.R. Tolkien?

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Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:34:11 2014 No.5117138 [DELETED]

Who do you prefer more ? George R.R. Martin or J.R.R. Tolkien?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:35:07 2014 No.5117140 >>5117138 Cormac McCarthy

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Thu Jul 10 02:40:10 2014 No.5117151 File: 54 KB, 400x411, LeGuinGoogle-thumb-400x411-32843.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5117138 Le Guin

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:40:29 2014 No.5117154
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>"Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water.The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water."

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:40:58 2014 No.5117140,1 martin, because tolkien is fort fartsy artsy kids and homo elfs, also no tits

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:44:05 2014 No.5117163 >>5117138 Wow you're retarded OP.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:46:40 2014 No.5117174

Outside of his writing career, Tolkien was a codebreaker, translator, a professor of English language and literature at Oxford, spoke twelve languages, and a telepath.

On the other hand, GRRM wrote several mediocre episodes of the Twilight Zone and is fat.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:49:06 2014 No.5117181 >>5117151 >heavy-handed science-fiction allegories about race and sexual identity no thanks

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 02:49:38 2014 No.5117184 File: 38 KB, 316x331, schizophrenia.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5117174 >and a telepath.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 03:17:18 2014 No.5117232 >>5117140 >>5117151 These niggers get it. >>5117154 >>5117174 These niggers don't.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 03:20:12 2014 No.5117237 >>5117174 > was a spoke twelve languages

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 03:20:57 2014 No.5117240
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I honestly find the themes and ideas behind his writing childish.
Oh! People can be bastards! Oh no! People don't always follow the rules! OHMANOHGOD! The real world isn't black and white!

Come on.

Humans aren't ALL amoral deviants willing to sell their family for nickels at the first chance, Martin is like a bitter teenager.

not only that but martin also seems to equate honor with stupidity

the whole series has some kind of weird nihilistic undercurrent of almost self loathing

I mean tolkein is kind of the same, it has a kind of religious moral undercurrent

I dont re-read either series at all... but in all honesty I would rather read the hobbit over and over than read martin.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 03:24:02 2014 No.5117246
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>>5117240
Tolkien shows that people can be redeemed no matter how bad they fuck up, a very christian idea.
Martin's writing shows no intent of such at any point. Hell, I still have no idea what's the purpose to anything he does on ASOIAF other than hurr ppl sudnt honor u must haet Morales durr describ food.

In Martin's world, good people are stupid or delusional. They haven't been "red pilled".

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 03:35:09 2014 No.5117261 >>5117154 Wait, who is Sunset?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 03:44:50 2014 No.5117271 >>5117240 Please die and kill yourself

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 03:46:47 2014 No.5117276 >>5117271 Why? He's right.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 04:57:35 2014 No.5117420 >>5117271 He is absolutely right though.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 05:38:21 2014 No.5117479

>>5117240
>not only that but martin also seems to equate honor with stupidity

I'm not convinced GRRM actually believes this. Though, i suppose we'll wait and see how ASoIaF ultimately resolves.

I think it's at least possible that GRRM's decade in Hollywood left him chronically eager to prove to the you-know-who's that he's no fool and he "gets it". In GRRM's world, 99% of the gatekeepers are Jewish. Thus, it behooves him to think like one.. or at least... pretend that he does by pandering to their sensibilities.

Equating honor with abject stupidity is quintessential Ashkenazi Jew thinking. David & Dan (the Jewish GoT show runners), decided to adapt the books for no other reason than the Red Wedding. In other words, they were beyond thrilled that the "perfect family" gets destroyed basically because none of them were sufficiently Jewish in their thoughts or actions.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:01:12 2014 No.5117498 File: 48 KB, 482x401, 1378816708784.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5117479 The worst part is that this actually makes sense.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:01:52 2014 No.5117501 I like the luddite interpretation of LoTR where the hobbits represent simple country folk and Mordor represents the rise of technology and industry and colossal power. Is there anything to Martin beyond soap opera?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:03:36 2014 No.5117504 >>5117501 emilia clarke's tits

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:05:14 2014 No.5117506 >>5117479 I stopped watching the tv show when I realized it was one of those pornos that had a "story" to them.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:16:35 2014 No.5117524 >>5117479 Why do Ashkenazis hate honour?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:37:37 2014 No.5117555 >>5117271 In that order?

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:48:23 2014 No.5117566

>>5117524
>Why do Ashkenazis hate honour?

Being honorable (in the Germanic sense) isn't Jewish. Being clever is Jewish. Those two things are often mutually exclusive. Jews admire "chutzpah" - in other words, being beyond shame or embarrassment or guilt in dealing with non-Jews. Honor dictates a lot of those things under all sorts of circumstances. So, it's basically a huge inconvenience for them in their efforts to preserve their ethnic distinctiveness apart from a people (European whites) who they could VERY easily find themselves swallowed-up by through intermarriage on account of the fact that they aren't all that different, genetically.

It's not so much that they "hate" honor, though. It's more like they reflexively recoil and sneer at it as a way of reinforcing (among each other) that being honorable (universally-speaking) generally isn't Good for the Jews.

David and Dan hate Stannis for a similar reason, though likely nothing to do with his honor. His character probably just struck them as stupid and goy-headed in a dangerous way. What drives them to hate is the fact that people they perceive to be utter simpletons and easily manipulated (by the Red Priestess, for instance) get to wield power in society. So, if a family full of them gets ruined, it's perfectly fitting, from a Jewish perspective.

It really just boils-down to the Jewish worldview and the Ashkenazi experience - particularly in Europe and America in modern times. They're not "bad" people, per se. They just shouldn't have any power. Game of Thrones is pretty much a Jewish wet dream, as far as what they'ld like to see happen to White Protestants in the west (fall to freed slaves or snow zombies due to the consequences of our "stupidity" or "moral weakness")

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 06:50:41 2014 No.5117570 >>5117506 do you wear one of those leathery trenchcoat things?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 07:16:00 2014 No.5117626 File: 1.01 MB, 768x576, 1373046383223.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5117566 I honestly feel enlightened after reading your posts. it all fits.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 07:28:28 2014 No.5117658 Tolkien has incredible world building and very beautiful prose. GRRM has deeper characters.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 07:35:30 2014 No.5117676 >>5117566 Can you enlighten me anymore on the Ashkenazi world view? Why are they do sensitive and even get offended at the suggestion that they are powerful and influential?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 07:38:29 2014 No.5117687 >>5117566 >>5117676 Oh yeah. Why do jews feel the need to overwhelmingly participate in leftist movements and the weakening of european pr (european desencded) nationalism and ethnic identity.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 07:45:00 2014 No.5117710

>>5117479
>implying the Jews won't have him killed before the final book is released and create their own Jewish ending to the series

And even if they didn't have him assassinated, D&D won't add the final book into the series because it won't be finished "in time".

The Jews always win.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 07:54:20 2014 No.5117735

>>5117138
People often say that Tolkien's characters are more flat than Martin's and do not develop, but I've never understood this. Every one of Tolkien's main characters has a level of progression to them, whilst Martin's stay relatively the same despite changing circumstances.

Prose Tolkien clearly wins. Martin's writing is clumsy, ugly, and awkward. Filled with repeated phrases that grate as well.

Plot. Well Tolkien knew where he was going, whilst Martin's plot grows and grows, passing through phases of utter boredom. Last book was the most shit tier.

I think Tolkien takes it at basically every level. Some stuff is bloated, and some stuff is dated, but he doesn't rely on either smut or gore to carry the interest of his readers. Oh and the main character killing that Martin does has become a gimmick, and killed the speed of the books.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:09:13 2014 No.5117767 >>5117240 Although this was a troll thread and op should feel bad for stooping this low again, I have to say that it's your interpretation of Martin's theme's and statements on human nature that is childish and simplistic. Just saying.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:13:47 2014 No.5117772 >>5117566 >ASOIAF is a Jewish power fantasy Never change, 4chan.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:14:06 2014 No.5117773

>>5117735
>but he doesn't rely on either smut or gore to carry the interest of his readers. Oh and the main character killing that Martin does has become a gimmick, and killed the speed of the books.
You're as bad as OP. Please see yourself out and don't come back.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:18:15 2014 No.5117779 Tolkien is a timeless work for the Christian tradition, Martin is some edgelord writing popular fantasy that will never be finished

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:20:03 2014 No.5117781 Tolkien wrote timeless works of mythology for the Christian tradition, Martin is some edgelord writing popular fantasy that will never be finished

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:22:30 2014 No.5117784 >comparing JRRT and GRRM Almost as terrible as comparing LotR to Harry Potter. Just because two series are popular doesn't mean they're similar enough to compare.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:50:53 2014 No.5117830
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>>5117626
>>5117566
>>5117479
>>5117687

The abstraction of fiction to politics in order to fill the primordial fantasy of anti-semitism always works by having idiots like you make sweeping statements on politics and culture because you read an infographic on /pol/. The funny thing is that you do not even know the source material that well, to know from which stories it was inspired. Even worse, the equation of vengeance being a jewish trait as if it is is non-existant in western myths, fairytales and stories.

Back to your containment board you go.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:51:30 2014 No.5117832 File: 38 KB, 377x377, 1403702897169.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmKhGqWcJGY

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:53:49 2014 No.5117838 Tolkien was a professor and a linguist and an incredibly intelligent man. Martin is just a shockjock neckbeard with too much time on his hands.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 08:58:33 2014 No.5117849 >>5117838 And money! Don't forget about money!

>>	Sebastian Cuello Thu Jul 10 09:00:32 2014 No.5117852 I prefer García Marquez.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:05:27 2014 No.5117859 >>5117781 >Christian tradition >timeless

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:06:27 2014 No.5117864 >>5117859 yeah m8 I'm sure religion will die out for the glory of atheist science

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:09:58 2014 No.5117872 LotR had terrible, terrible characters that even a literal autist could probably do better. That ALONE makes Tolkien a bad writer. Good worldbuilding and prose don't make up for lack of characters with any fucking depth.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:12:26 2014 No.5117877 >>5117872 I bet I could go through this thread and guess which posts are yours.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:15:06 2014 No.5117881

GRRM is just shock and edge porn in literary form, and the writing is bad too.

Killing off your characters for no other purpose other than to surprise the reader and putting in lots of violence, sex, and negative outcomes for the good guys is only liked because of the EDGE.

The old fucking neckbeard's fans are the worst people.

Seriously, try talking to any female GoT fan and you'll understand how fucking retarded they are.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:15:49 2014 No.5117884 >>5117872 Bilbo alone has more depth and development than literally every character in Song of Ice and Fire.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:16:25 2014 No.5117888 >>5117877 Do it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:18:36 2014 No.5117895 >>5117884 Man, watching Bilbo harden from a fat lazy fuck into a respectable, yet lighthearted adventurer was fun as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:18:46 2014 No.5117896 Tolkien fought in an actual war. Martin only fights gravity and his calorie count.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:40:33 2014 No.5117942 >>5117138 >i posted it again

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 09:44:22 2014 No.5117949 >>5117566 >or snow zombies So who do the white walkers and snow zombies symbolize?

>>	Sebastian Cuello Thu Jul 10 09:52:48 2014 No.5117966 >>5117896 Alto kek.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:00:42 2014 No.5117985 >>5117246 >describ food Make fun all you want, but that shit is effective. I've never been so hungry as I am reading asoiaf

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:04:21 2014 No.5117990 >>5117830 pol is always right

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:07:13 2014 No.5117993 >>5117896 What does any of that have to do with writing? Tolkeintards be butthurt that there's another popular fantasy series out there.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:10:07 2014 No.5117998 >>5117985 It also illustrates standards of living for different characters and settings in an easily relatable way.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:15:11 2014 No.5118012 >>5117993 Your life experiences effect how and what you write. Martin doesn't know anything about real danger or physical struggle.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:18:28 2014 No.5118022

>>5118012
And neither do you, or most writers. They are usually autistic shut-ins who have never experienced danger and physical struggle. Tolkien is not one of the great writers, he is pop fantasy, just like GRRM, and while he may be better overall, he is still just another pop fantasy writer, like JK Rowling.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:20:35 2014 No.5118029 >>5118012 Cuz Tolkien is a british gentleman and Martin a fatass murrican neckbeard.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:24:49 2014 No.5118038 >>5117872 'no'

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:31:45 2014 No.5118061

>>5118022

I don't have to know real danger -- I'm not writing about people experiencing it.

And Tolkien wasn't just a pop writer, and still isn't. His work is popular NOW, but it is not accessible and modernized in a way that makes it inherently pop-market friendly.

And, again, he was a fucking professor of language. Martin literally just writes about painful shits.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:33:11 2014 No.5118065 >>5118061 a lot of really good writers wrote a lot about painful shits, i don't think that's something to knock him for

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:33:14 2014 No.5118066 >>5118022 >One of the first great world-builders. >Analysed by critics all over the world >Echoed in almost every fantasy novel that follows him

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:34:51 2014 No.5118070 >>5118022 Hurr durr fantasy isn't literature durr

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:35:39 2014 No.5118076

>>5118065

The point isn't what he writes about, but that he only writes. Thats it. He is a pop writer because that is his sole job.

Tolkien wasn't an author turning out books each year. He was a professor and just wanted to write a story he'd been thinking of for some time. It was for him, not for a specific market.

Lets put it like this -- it wouldn't have mattered it LotRs had been published at all, Tolkien was going to write it regardless. If the first song book hadn't hit big, Martin would've given up.

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 10:36:05 2014 No.5118079

>>5117884

This.

What the fuck is going on in this thread?

Bilbo and Frodo are two completely different characters by the end of their respective books. Pretty much every human and hobbit character in Tolkien's work develops dramatically. Only the Elves, Dwarfs and 'bad guys' don't, but that is because Tolkien didn't wanted to develop the character of the race as a whole, not the individual. And where can you go with a evil character? Make them good? Wat.

Only Tyrion and Jaime develop in any meaningful way in ASOIAF. I swear to fuck, if Martin hadn't loaded the book with sex and gore you cunts wouldn't give a fuck.

You may as well drop the hipster visage, read 50 Shades of Grey, and be done with it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 11:26:23 2014 No.5118180 >>5117767 Elaborate.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 11:52:17 2014 No.5118232 >>5117990 hanson's razor suggests that they are almost always wrong. I would modify it to greed and stupidity, but thats just me

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 13:10:14 2014 No.5118436
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>>5117240
I'll bite, I just want you to know I'm stark naked right now though.
>Oh! People can be bastards! Oh no! People don't always follow the rules! OHMANOHGOD! The real world isn't black and white!
So what you're saying is, since everyone already knows the real world isn't black and white we should never write stories about morally gray characters.
>Humans aren't ALL amoral deviants willing to sell their family for nickels at the first chance, Martin is like a bitter teenager.
Neither is everyone in ASOIAF, try reading it. And keep in mind he doesn't have any smallfolk characters, most of them are nobles all out for more power and money. Which, historically, isn't too fantastical.
>not only that but martin also seems to equate honor with stupidity
No he doesn't, many of his characters do however. If you're up against somebody who fights dirty, not fighting dirty back is very dangerous.
>I dont re-read either series at all...
You're stuttering, just take a deep breath for a second and collect yourself.
>I would rather read the hobbit over and over than read martin.
Because it's like 200 pages?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 13:12:02 2014 No.5118445 >>5118079 >Only Tyrion and Jaime develop in any meaningful way in ASOIAF. I swear to fuck What do you consider meaningful and why does it only apply to them?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 13:15:33 2014 No.5118462 >>5118079 this and that's not even the main reason why martin's books are trash

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 13:50:21 2014 No.5118613 Both authors write about fictional worlds, but the books are quite different in many ways. Not a very meaningful comparison.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 14:15:01 2014 No.5118729 File: 787 KB, 480x360, Well Done Sir.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5118079

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 14:41:17 2014 No.5118836
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>>5118061
> Professor of Language

Yet his writing only looks good if you exclusively read fantasy. Actual literature blows his writing out of the water. Tolkein might be better than Martin but that doesn't make him good.

Pic related. Mother fucker's wrote better English novels than Tolkein in Spanish.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 14:46:58 2014 No.5118856 >>5118836 If you think Tolkien's writing was bad you aren't read Tolkien properly.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 15:13:34 2014 No.5118942 >>5118856 If you think Martin's writing is bad you aren't reading Martin properly. See? I can do that too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 15:21:46 2014 No.5118973 >>5118942 Good for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAvF9p8nmM

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 17:40:57 2014 No.5119850

>>5117772
>>ASOIAF is a Jewish power fantasy

>Never change, 4chan.

The theory (and it's merely speculation...) isn't that ASoIaF is a "Jewish power fantasy". The theory is that with the series, an older, cynical, post-Hollywood, "Jew wise" GRRM *may* have set out to troll the Ashkenazim that have so dominated the world in which GRRM has spent his entire professional life - that is, the world of publishing and media (and before that, academia, teaching, and journalism...).

So, with the Game of Thrones series, the Jew-dominated film/TV creators took the bait and ran with a tale seemingly tailor-made for their sensibilities, worldview, and collective memories as European Jews.

If the theory proves true, he'll somehow subvert *their* worldview by the end of the series, but to pull that off would be exceedingly clever. D&D would know this by now, so they'ld likely want to ramp-up the gay sex and subtle racial antagonism embedded in the TV series if for no other reason than to soften the blow to the Jewish ego.

It is, of course, entirely possible that GRRM is genuinely writing from a worldview he shares with most Ashkenazim, having internalized their mentality decades before for self-serving reasons which should be obvious.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 17:50:34 2014 No.5119897 >>5118012 >real danger or physical struggle. What writers actually know that? And wrote about it? Cormac McCarthy did great job writing about it but.. i doubt he actually knows what real danger is.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 17:52:12 2014 No.5119908 >>5119897 which*

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 18:15:53 2014 No.5120039

>>5117830
I don't think he was saying vengeful is a Jewish trait. In fact, in reading what he wrote he didn't say it at all.

What he did say that the moral code of honor was not something found in Jewish culture. Besides, saying that someone is of a culture is a sweeping statement in and of itself. Cultures have small and subtle changes that make them different from person to person.

I'm not saying that everything you wrote is wrong, but your criticism of him is. Except for the fact that it should be posted on /pol/ but only because this is a board for literature and not politics.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 19:40:58 2014 No.5120414 >>5117232 Great contribution

Anonymous Thu Jul 10 20:28:09 2014 No.5120607

>>5118180
I'm going to limit this to one post because I don't want to bump this stupid thread more than I have to (fuck you op).

>Humans aren't ALL amoral deviants willing to sell their family for nickels at the first chance, Martin is like a bitter teenager.

If you think about it for a moment the vast majority of characters have (or are revealed to have) rather admirable, defined moral positions from which they base their actions; it's just that those actions are also determined by characters' situations and the contexts they inhabit. Principle vs expediency, you'll find this idea throughout the series.

For example, nearly all of the Lannisters' actions are done in the name of protecting a family member or preserving lineage. Problem is these people are in a position where they have to maintain an iron grip on their position at the top of the pecking order, and so the ethical component to protecting their children or siblings is strained. A moral goal or destination often requires a shady solution.

Martin's intent isn't subjective morality for the sake of it. At a fundamental level, his series is about institutions of power and the moral implication of needing to maintain/wanting to acquire that power. Characters aren't automatically rotten simply to make the story 'gritty'. Instead of living in a bubble they're shaped by their environments. That's where any 'moral deviancy' comes from. This is why comments like

>Oh! People can be bastards! Oh no! People don't always follow the rules! OHMANOHGOD! The real world isn't black and white!

are just silly and you trying to be obtuse.

>not only that but martin also seems to equate honor with stupidity

This is another simplified interpretation. Going back to what I said above about principle and expediency, some characters know how to balance the two, some don't. This doesn't make the latter stupid, just less experienced. Ned Stark entered a viper's nest for which he wasn't prepared. His failure wasn't some statement on the part of the author that to be noble of character is to be an idiot. I really don't know where people get this shit from; look at the post below yours (same person?). If anything Martin says that in a society where politics is rife with intrigue and power plays (nothing extraordinary about that), it helps to know when to be morally flexible to survive.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 10 20:32:33 2014 No.5120621 I prefer Gene Wolfe to them both.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 05:51:03 2014 No.5122609 Read SciFi

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 08:55:22 2014 No.5122999 GRRM. Tolkien couldn't write anything interesting beyond Silmarillon

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 09:37:00 2014 No.5123106 What does /lit/ think about Scott Bakker then?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 09:39:19 2014 No.5123112 GRRM, by far. Tolkien mollifies the world.

>>	« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Fri Jul 11 09:49:12 2014 No.5123139 JRR Influences: Greek, Roman, Gothic, Germanic, Nordic and English mythologies/legends GRR influences: Comic books, soap operas, D&D games with his high school friends, pulpy porny fantasy derived from lesser knockoffs of Tolkien. Enjoy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 10:51:45 2014 No.5123358 >>5117838 So why couldn't the incredible intelligent professor create a single non two-dimensional character?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 10:59:44 2014 No.5123391 >>5118079 >didn't wanted Jesus. Let this thread die so I can be rid of this shame.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 12:07:41 2014 No.5123697 >>5123139 >GRR influences: Comic books, soap operas, D&D games with his high school friends, pulpy porny fantasy derived from lesser knockoffs of Tolkien. Citation needed.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 12:36:58 2014 No.5123809 >>5123139 Finnish mythologies, too. And not so much english, really. Since there is very little english mythology besides Arthurian Legend.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 12:46:57 2014 No.5123843 >>5123697 He admitted he played GURPS, and that "Wild Cards" was based off of a game of his.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 12:53:42 2014 No.5123870 >>5118022 before tolkien, dwarfs were greedy and evil, and the dwarf-elf hostility non-existant. After tolkien, the human-dwarf-elf alliance is a staple of fantady, including dwarf-elf hostilities

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:02:01 2014 No.5123901 >>5117784 +1

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:02:13 2014 No.5123903 >>5123843 Link for the GURPS part, don't know where the Wild Cards part is. http://www.mtv.com/videos/interview/692901/bubonicon-43-george-rr-martin-talks-gurps.jhtml

Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:05:56 2014 No.5123913

>>5118079
Wrong. Idiot.

In addition to Tyrion and Jaime, characters like Sansa, Arya, Jon Snow, The Hound, Samwell, and especially Theon (how the fuck can you forget his massive arc?) all experience development at a tremendous level throughout the series.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:07:12 2014 No.5123919 >>5118729 You're a loser dude

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:18:50 2014 No.5123948 >>5118079 why do people think asoiaf is filled with sex and gore? there's hardly any, don't rely on the show

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:19:44 2014 No.5123952 >>5123919 you too

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:31:07 2014 No.5123985 >>5117151 le guin maymay XDDDDDDD

Anonymous Fri Jul 11 13:49:23 2014 No.5124045

>>5123913
>Sansa, Arya, Jon Snow, The Hound, Samwell, and especially Theon

None of these characters show significant character development.

>Sansa has always been a brooding, stupid, complacent door-mat. Now she's literally the same thing, only for Littlefinger instead of Joffrey or Cersei.

>Arya has always been a spiteful bitch. Now she just learned how to be a total bitch and kill people along with it. So she went and learned how to become a faceless man. Big fucking deal. Herself as a character has not changed. Taking a new job or receiving a promotion doesn't necessarily mean a person is developing as a human being.

>Jon Snow. Fucking top kek. So his brothers in the Nights Watch like him now, big fucking deal. He as a character hasn't changed all that much. In fact his brothers show more character development than him "oh we love you Jon Snow you're fucking awesome be our next Lord Commander". One book later "Fuck you, Jon Snow. You like wildlings so we're going to kill you now!

>The Hound has always hated authority figures and has always used his situations to benefit himself. He's a jaded old cynical fuck from the moment we meet him to the moment he apparently dies . So he had a crush on Sansa, big fucking deal. Doesn't change the fact that he is a total pragmatic asshole.

>Samwell. I'll give you Samwell as he grows in both bravery and action, totally motivated by the promise of pussy. He's putting the pussy on a pedestal.

>Theon. So his circumstances have changed and now he's been tortured and almost brain washed. Doesn't change the fact that he's always been a cowardly little fuck.

You want real and complex character development? Look at characters like Ivan and Alyosha Karamazov, Ishmael, Molly and Leopold Bloom, Severian, Pip, Milton's Satan, Quinten Compson, or any of Flannery O'Connor's characters. These are the textbook definition of complex characters and character development.

Anonymous Fri Jul 11 15:30:29 2014 No.5124425

>>5124045
> None of these characters show significant development.

They do though, by and large.

Sansa slowly over time grew more savvy to the dealings in King's Landing, and she figured out Littlefinger's ploy with Lyn Corbray without needing to be told, and is more or less shaping to be his pupil/waifu.

Arya's character arc is one of a descent into madness. Arya was wild, but also young and impressionable. She wants to be this cool badass warrior lady, so she strives to emulate her older male peers, such as Syrio, or Yoren, whose night-time murder tally she picks up. This unhealthy fixation on violence and revenge slowly cripples her empathy and sanity. When she first killed someone, she was sick to her stomach, IIRC almost to the point of vomiting. Come book four and she will kill a Night's Watch deserter without any hesitation or feeling for the deed (It's also interesting to note that despite her unhealthy mindset that she still seems to retain some of the Stark core values, as well).

Jon started off as a more angst-ridden, teenage Ned. His first change of character came when Donal Noye confronted him about his whiny emo bullshit. He pointed out that yes, being a bastard in Westeros sucked, but he was given far greater care than most bastards in Westeros and certainly had a better life than the rest of his newly initiated Night's Watch brothers. He was confronted with the fact that his being much better at fighting and general Night's Watch shit wasn't due to him being "better" than them, but due to his privileged upbringing. Then in the second and third books Jon is forced into a position where his honor is compromised, and for the greater good of his mission he sacrifices said honor. This is a pivotal turning point for Jon, and indeed for most of the rest of the series as Lord Commander he forsakes some of the old traditions in favor of actually improving the Night's Watch. He doesn't always do what he would like to do, but he ignores his own desires for the greater good. Despite that however, in the fifth book when Ramsay has apparently slaughtered Stannis' army and is raping the shit out of his little sister, he makes the rash decision of rousing an army to march to Winterfell and take Ramsays head. This is called being a dynamic character. Character development is fine and good, but it isn't easy. You can slip into your old ways if careful. Jon shows that perfectly.

The Hound is fair enough, he was relatively minor and thus had little time to develop more than generally becoming a bit less of a dick to certain people. Sandor's main appeal is his genuinely traumatic backstory, general badassery, and as one tool to help tear down preconceptions of chivalry and knighthood (Helped by his brother).

Theon wasn't a coward though. He had fought in several battles on the frontline, and refused to abandon Winterfell even when it became clear it was a lost cause. You obviously just didn't understand the character.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 15:33:06 2014 No.5124440 >>5123139 You forgot Martin's biggest influence. Tolkien.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 15:38:30 2014 No.5124468 >>5117246 >Martin's writing shows no intent of such at any point. Have you been skipping Jaime's chapters or something?

Anonymous Fri Jul 11 15:46:43 2014 No.5124506

>>5117246
> Tolkien shows that people can be redeemed no matter how bad they fuck up, a very christian idea.

Right, like Morgoth, or Sauron, or Saruman, or the entire fucking orcish race (Even Tolkien admits he handled the orcs terribly).

Also, I've seen this exact post posted before. Get new material.

>>5117240

Same here.

Troll better.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 15:48:10 2014 No.5124510 >>5118022 >implying Tolkien never experienced danger >what is the somme durrrrhurrrrrr

Anonymous Fri Jul 11 16:32:06 2014 No.5124693 [DELETED]

File: 74 KB, 491x600, Nabonidus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

I recently marathoned the documentary series "Civilisation" from 1969. Clark's commentary is /lit/-tier; this is far from some talking head number. Judgemental in a way modern academics no longer have the balls to be, but dispassionate and objective within his value system, e.g. no nationalism or religious prejudice.

Anyway, the focus was on the birth and growth of Western civilisation in particular, from the Dark Ages up to the student protests from the year of production. I don't think he makes any unduly rash or unfortunate observations on his own time. One thing he said in particular gives me pause: that modern man is still within the Romantic era, just barely. That was 1969.

It's easier now to see the resemblance between the beats and rebels of the mid twentieth century and the late 18th century Romantics. Wild nature. Primitive goodness. Brotherhood and peace. Straining for experiences. I think his classification was apt.

However, I think we might at last be leaving the Romantic era. The 1960s was, if you like, Romanticism finally penetrating the sturdy skulls of the working class, who then sought strong experiences with all their typical grace and subtlety. But their opposition of youth to old age was bound to fall. Their culture practically had an expiration date. They grew up, got rich and fat, won all their battles and causes without stress or pain; capitalism was never unpleasant enough to stir them to violence, and communism has discredited itself, leaving only a bunch of sentimentalists with no doctrine, and a mushy, self-contradicting morality. The anti-establishment people have become the establishment.

Surely this is the last nail in the coffin for Romanticism? But what comes next?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 16:42:41 2014 No.5124742 >>5124045 You're wrong

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 16:50:11 2014 No.5124766 >>5124425 See, /lit/? This is what happens when you can read: you make statements based on truth.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 16:52:02 2014 No.5124777 >>5118076 Judge them based on what they wrote, not why they wrote it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 19:20:37 2014 No.5125348 >>5124425 Greats points, anon.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 19:39:08 2014 No.5125400 >>5117872 Prose is the only important thing in a book you fucking pleb. Smut written by Nabokov would be infinitely better than a novel with the most complex characters.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 19:39:23 2014 No.5125402 >>5118012 >physical struggle. he does trust me

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 19:43:38 2014 No.5125415 “The ship groaned and growled beneath him like a constipated fat man straining to shit.” -George R.R. Martin

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 20:03:49 2014 No.5125483 File: 99 KB, 500x375, gene wolfe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Gene Wolfe.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 20:08:45 2014 No.5125503 >>5125483 More like Gene wolfed down this cock.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 20:18:53 2014 No.5125548 f

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 20:23:25 2014 No.5125566 u

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 20:31:58 2014 No.5125604 n

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 21:08:22 2014 No.5125729 >>5117138 Tolkien.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 21:19:46 2014 No.5125772 George J.R.R. Tolkien

Anonymous Fri Jul 11 21:23:59 2014 No.5125790

>>5124045
>You want real and complex character development? Look at characters like Ivan and Alyosha Karamazov, Ishmael, Molly and Leopold Bloom, Severian, Pip, Milton's Satan, Quinten Compson, or any of Flannery O'Connor's characters. These are the textbook definition of complex characters and character development.

I can't remember ever seeing such a try hard post on /lit/. We've read those books too, thanks.

What you and several other anons somehow miss is that characters in this series are totally determined by what takes place around them, far more than most works of lit I've come across. Whether they experience some radical change or not, their actions and sentiments are the result of the changing situations they find themselves in. It's this intimate relationship with and unconscious susceptibility to their surroundings that makes them significant as characters. That's where the 'development' lies, the relationship between external pressure and resulting internal decisions. I don't see how a character could be any more real than that. You wont find characters experiencing an obviously artistic/artificial sequence of events that's clearly been written just so they can undergo a transformation (nothing wrong with that approach, just pointing out that there are others). People rarely if ever experience an arc over a short period of time in real life. Instead we simply react to stimuli and try to survive, with our personalities remaining much the same. That's what many modernist characters in literature do. Quinten Compson doesn't go through an impressive change of character. His importance as a fictional character lies elsewhere.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 21:25:27 2014 No.5125797 G.R.R.R. Martien

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 11 21:30:20 2014 No.5125816 J.K Rolketin

« Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ » Fri Jul 11 22:42:14 2014 No.5126039
File: 487 KB, 720x480, Natalia-as-Osha-in-Game-of-Thrones-natalia-tena-24525551-720-480.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5123985
How is it a "maymay" to recommend one of the best living authors we have?

>>5124440
>You forgot Martin's biggest influence. Tolkien.
>>5123139
>GRR influences: Comic books, soap operas, D&D games with his high school friends, pulpy porny fantasy derived from lesser knockoffs of Tolkien.
>Tolkien.
I don't know about biggest influence.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 05:01:18 2014 No.5126921 >>5126039 Fatty fatty 2X4 is one of the biggest Tolkien fanboys alive. There wouldn't be a cock left to suck on his corpse after he was done with it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 05:14:38 2014 No.5126948 Tolkien by far. Tolkien had heart in his writing. The other guy gets off with torture, sex, and drama. Tolkien is a fucking God and I don't like the other guy, at all.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 06:43:14 2014 No.5127087

I decided to marathon the show and it's mediocre as fuck. I feel that people like it because of the "edge" i.e. explicit sex/nudity, violence, and soap opera tier drama.

I mean, that's it, isn't it? The characters are nothing new or original, the world is nothing new or original, the story is nothing great. Everything about it is just average.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 08:01:04 2014 No.5127210 >>5127087 >Trying this hard to fit in /lit/ So why the fuck did you watch 40 episodes of it? You obviously liked it. Nobody watches 4 seasons of something and goes, lol fuck that gay show.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 08:02:04 2014 No.5127213 >>5127210 Not him, but I did just that. I was taken in by the story, I just thought the story was retarded.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 08:09:20 2014 No.5127226 >>5127213 > I was taken in by the story, I just thought the story was retarded What?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 08:25:22 2014 No.5127254 I started reading ASOIAF I feel like I"m losing brain cells with every chapter I finish. It's just dull. Why do so many people like this?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 08:31:49 2014 No.5127268 >>5127226 He means it was "fun"/"entertaining" to watch, but he's aware that it's not good. It's mindless pulp fantasy soap opera average TV series bullshit. A good time killer but nothing life changing.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 09:19:53 2014 No.5127391

>>5127268

Why doesn't the majority of /lit/ treat the series as such then? It's not a difficult conclusion to come to.

Fantasy is supposed to entertain you, and draw you into its world, and the asoiaf series does that extremely well.

What boggles me more is how most on here seem to have read all 5 books, yet have such a simple understanding of the characters.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 09:24:17 2014 No.5127408 >>5127391 asplain theon greyjoy and arya stark 2 me pls

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 09:38:38 2014 No.5127459

>>5127408

Explain what about Theon and Arya? Maybe if you was more specific, and didn't write like a retard I might have helped you out.

You'll be happy to know that there are ton of hardcore fans who have analysed every character extensively, you're welcome to read what they have to say.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 09:42:07 2014 No.5127480 >>5127459 >? Maybe if you was >you was No thank you, nigger. Back to /tv/ you go.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 10:08:14 2014 No.5127573 >>5127480 I kinda told you to read what other people wrote on the characters didn't I? No, I'm not going back to /tv/, I don't watch television often.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 11:24:30 2014 No.5127806

>>5127268
Why the fuck would it need to be anything more? Hell, what series goes beyond "muh entertainment", that's exactly the purpose of any blockbuster productions and given how you and that guy who disliked it went through it all, it fulfilled the purpose perfectly.

>>5127087
>implying Tolkien wrote any original characters, fuck characters is a too strong word for that shit
>implying Tolkien wrote a great story
>implying Tolkiens world isn't a mash up from celtic mythology

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 11:37:33 2014 No.5127838 >>5127806 >implying you are 1/16 the writer Tolkien was

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 11:38:20 2014 No.5127840 >>5127806 you forgot norse mythology

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 12:05:27 2014 No.5127940
File: 1.49 MB, 991x2975, Beginner-fantasy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anyone else remember how the asoiaf series was liked on /lit/ before HBO made the show? I remember.

In fact asoiaf is still on top of the epic fantasy and mulitvolumes god tier list.

Are you guys upset that the series went super mainstream now?

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 12:57:47 2014 No.5128145

>>5127940
It doesn't help any, that's for sure. It's like the Walking Dead, it used to be a nice comic then it reached the mainstream. Now it's all faggots pining for Daryll's redneck cock or thinking that Rick is the greatest protagonist in all of fiction when he's a dumb, badly portrayed little bitch. He is a dumb bitch in the comics too, just so that I'm fair.

I shudder to think what will happen once Preacher hits the airwaves.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 13:55:07 2014 No.5128337 >>5127940 >Fables Why? It's a boring comic series with mediocre art.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 15:41:26 2014 No.5128695 >>5127940 >in the same tier as the dark tower tooooooooooop kike

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:01:37 2014 No.5129303 >>5127391 > /lit/ speed reads so they can add more notches to their belt. Don't expect high comprehension or retention.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:05:18 2014 No.5129314

>>5127940
I get the impression that a lot of /lit/'s previous fondness for ASOIAF had to do with the solidness of the first three books. What turned the board on Martin was both the show (which quite frankly is annoying) and the total shittiness of A Dance With Dragons.

Basically, /lit/ loved the series when it was moving briskly and generally good. Now that it is neither of those things, /lit/ dislikes it, and frankly, they dislike it for good reasons.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 19:51:10 2014 No.5129486 >>5127940 >>5129314 /lit/ always had contempt for fantasy, saying that ASOIAF is good fantasy doesn't mean that it's not garbage genrefiction.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 20:17:45 2014 No.5129600 >>5127940 I read the first book something like a decade ago and hated it immensely. It is to fantasy what 50 Shades is to romance.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 20:26:01 2014 No.5129635 >>5129314 >and the total shittiness of A Dance With Dragons. Nah man. Feast was shit. Dance really turned things around. It's not back where it used to be but it was much better than Feast and set up big time for an explosive 6th book.

Anonymous Sat Jul 12 20:33:17 2014 No.5129663

>>5129635
Both were pretty good outside of Dorne and Davos bloat, what really sucked was the first book. It was all a huge prologue without anything meaningful happening, outside of Neds dumb ass dying but the effects were only show in the prequel anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:03:57 2014 No.5129761 >>5126948 >The other guy gets off with torture, sex, and drama. This is a meme, right? I mean, there can't be this many people who actually believe this nonsense...right?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 12 21:20:05 2014 No.5129805 >>5129761 Prove him wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 01:39:00 2014 No.5130410 >>5129314 Why is the show annoying?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 02:54:33 2014 No.5130526 >>5129805 That isn't how burden of proof works.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 02:58:37 2014 No.5130537 >>5130526 What does he have to prove?

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 03:32:15 2014 No.5130591 >>5124506 >Morgoth, or Sauron, or Saruman, or the entire fucking orcish race >people Pick one.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 03:34:57 2014 No.5130595 >>5118836 >What is translation? Anyway Tolkien wasn't a writer. He was a staunch academic who was toying around with a hobby. Nobody but apologists talk about Tolkien as though his prose style is especially good.

>>	Philosophag !!aEGgSI04zUm Sun Jul 13 03:48:52 2014 No.5130614 >>5117138 Erikson

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 13 03:50:36 2014 No.5130621 >>5130591 Even Tolkien thinks you're an idiot.

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/lit/ - Literature