Unabomber's Manifesto

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Unabomber's Manifesto Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:14:16 2014 No.5096323 [DELETED]

Was Kaczynski correct when he argued that modern civilization leaves people unfulfilled by depriving them of autonomy, self-sufficiency, and the setting and attainment of goals?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:14:57 2014 No.5096326 Yes. >therefore, let's blow some people up

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 02:16:00 2014 No.5096330 >>5096323 Yes. The horror of men like Kaczynski and Breivik isn't that they are insane, it's that they are sane.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:18:13 2014 No.5096331 >>5096330 Slavoj pls

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:22:10 2014 No.5096337

The thing to realise is, our feelings aren't just feelings, but they're perception of the world, and perception built around survival. Imagine then if survival was assured from day one. Shit would be like, "Uhhhh, lol." And then you get people giving about individuality or some bs if some collective communist utopia was brought about, but who the fuck would care? That shit's just a knee-jerk reaction, IMO, the same thing that has the middle child so angsty in our current turbulent uncertain world, because he's like "oh shit these fuckers don't need me, i'm fucked"

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:25:59 2014 No.5096345 I gotta start actually reading threads rather than going on single words. Unabomber was fcking nuts tho and trole faec is a shithead

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:26:34 2014 No.5096350 >>5096326 Blowing people up is what led to his manifesto being printed in several national newspapers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:27:34 2014 No.5096352 File: 212 KB, 609x601, 87654567898765412.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5096323 yeah

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:28:54 2014 No.5096354 >>5096352 Wow.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:32:47 2014 No.5096368
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>>5096352
I've seen this quote posted a few times now and it is the truest thing I have ever read regarding the leftist mentality. Leftist ideals=a focus on losers by losers in order for the losers not to feel like losers

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:35:56 2014 No.5096378
File: 219 KB, 780x926, lanza.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

What's interesting to me is what Adam Lanza had to say on the subject. He called into a (primitivist?) radio show comparing Travis the chimp's mental breakdown with that of humans.

There's also this post he made on shockedbeyondbelief.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:36:28 2014 No.5096379 >>5096323 Yes, I'm inclined to think. It's the best explanation I've heard so far for my life of wank.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:36:53 2014 No.5096380 >>5096368 >a focus on losers by losers in order for the losers not to feel like losers That's just Nietzsche's slave morality though

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:41:15 2014 No.5096392 >>5096380 He was right and so is that poster. Leftists are slaves.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:43:19 2014 No.5096396 >>5096368 I was expecting /lit/ to be a heavily leftist board but I'm pleasantly surprised.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:44:41 2014 No.5096399

>>5096380
""...the Jews achieved that miracle of inversion of values thanks to which life on earth has for a couple millennia acquired a new and dangerous fascination--their prophets fused 'rich', 'godless', 'evil', 'violent', 'sensual' into one and were the first to coin the word 'world' as a term of infamy. It is this inversion of values (with which is involved the employment of the word for 'poor' as a synonym for 'holy' and 'friend') that the significance of the Jewish people resides: with them there begins the slave revolt in morals."[7]"

/pol/ confirmed for always right even before there was a /pol/.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:49:24 2014 No.5096404

>>5096399
pls

>Have you grasped nothing of the reason why I am in the world?...Now it has gone so far that I have to defend myself hand and foot against people who confuse me with these anti-Semitic canaille; after my own sister, my former sister, and after Widemann more recently have given the impetus to this most dire of all confusions. After I read the name Zarathustra in the anti-Semitic Correspondence my forbearance came to an end. I am now in a position of emergency defense against your spouse's Party. These accursed anti-Semite deformities shall not sully my ideal!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:50:31 2014 No.5096406 >>5096404 The Jews had gotten to him. Why do you think he died so crazy?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:51:08 2014 No.5096408 >>5096380 Nietzsche was a slave.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:53:44 2014 No.5096413

What a bunch of retards. Dude kills a bunch of people, gets locked up ---GENIUS CAPITALIST, SO STRONG!! The right are deluded, imaging for themselves and independence from everyone else and success in it, where no such things exist. Oh, but they're playing the game, by the ways, and winning ---no, no, I'm not a slave!

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:55:27 2014 No.5096415 >>5096413 lel, I hab television, i build television myself!! same car build too, and eat pig it's like human, me, but i eat it so i am god

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:56:37 2014 No.5096418 >>5096415 And now you know why Americans are so fucktarded about bacon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 02:56:38 2014 No.5096419 >>5096323 Yes, he was also right about modern(non worker) lefties being the death of socialism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:01:22 2014 No.5096428 >>5096418 Anyone catch Joyce's line in Ulysses about the mutton kidneys? There's no inherent tastiness to a thing folks.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:03:20 2014 No.5096431 >>5096413 >GENIUS CAPITALIST, SO STRONG!! How the fuck do you figure he's a capitalist? He was a primitivist.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:04:41 2014 No.5096433
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>>5096354
>>5096368
Leftism hasn't changed much, who knows when Ted even wrote all of that up. Anyway, read the first twenty paragraphs on leftist psychology.
http://cyber.eserver.org/unabom.txt

I'll use Cobain's journal entry as a quick example.

If you want the gist of his views regarding technology read this article by Bill Joy of Sun Microsystems. Many references to Ted.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:06:16 2014 No.5096434

Hahaha oh wow Kaczynski is still railing on leftists to this day:

Kaczynski is serving life without parole at a high-security federal prison in Colorado. He was linked to 16 mail-bomb attacks between 1978 and 1995 that killed three men and injured 29 other people.

Many of his writings, including prison correspondence, are available to the public through an agreement with the University of Michigan, his alma mater. They are part of the Labadie Collection, which documents the social protest movement.

In a letter dated Aug. 24, 2011, Kaczynski chided Chi for misunderstanding his writings. “I get thoroughly tired of leftists who write to me thinking that I’m their brother,” he wrote.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:07:51 2014 No.5096437 File: 210 KB, 611x441, Untitled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5096433 Why the future doesn't need us http://archive.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy.html

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:32:53 2014 No.5096468 >>5096437 >pic interesting

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:40:49 2014 No.5096480 >>5096368 if no one cared about losers you (exactly you and everyone on this board including me) wouldn't be even alive survival of the weakest is perhaps the best feature of human society

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:46:13 2014 No.5096496 >>5096480 >*modern human society survival of the weakest did not exist until governments decided to start taking care of their populations.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:47:59 2014 No.5096501 >>5096323 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:49:55 2014 No.5096509 >>5096496 i am talking about mercy in general as a feature of a human

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:50:29 2014 No.5096513 >>5096496 You are wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:55:00 2014 No.5096527 >>5096509 A-a human bean?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:56:03 2014 No.5096532 >>5096527 >look, he's actually joking

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 03:58:35 2014 No.5096542

>>5096513
care to refute?

>gilded age in America
If you didn't work, or worse yet couldn't find work you starved and died. It didn't help that charities and churches(the only institutions helping people at the time) were already crammed full of people in desperate need of help. In Gilded Age America, no social safety nets existed like today, no Soc Sec, Medicaid/Medicare, welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing etc. If you suffered a broken leg, and didn't have family to help support you, you likely died in an alleyway penniless. If you just happened to be born disabled(mental retardation or physical disability) you were institutionalized. And if those were full, you'd probably be left to die. The world was harsher than it was now, we have it too good.

care to bring up any counter points?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:00:58 2014 No.5096548 >>5096431 If you're not a leftist, you're a capitalist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:02:29 2014 No.5096552 >>5096548 >this is what anglos actually think

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:02:32 2014 No.5096553

>>5096548
So when Kaczysnki says the following:
>By refraining from having children, rebels against the industrial system may be handing the world over to the growtHs. (“GrowtH” is our word for anyone who favors economic growth and all that crap.)

He's arguing for capitalism?

Source:
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-communiques-of-freedom-club-ted-kaczynski

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:05:41 2014 No.5096569 >>5096496 Which sucks, because intelligence is heritable and the least intelligent are now outbreeding the most.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:06:05 2014 No.5096570 >>5096552 It's fact, for the most part. >>5096553 Explain to me what exactly he advocates then please. Core tenets, go.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:07:59 2014 No.5096574 >>5096569 I'm literally gobsmacked by how pathetic this post is, anon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:09:11 2014 No.5096580 >>5096570 The elimination of industrial society. He wants to return to pre-industrial society. And maybe even to a pre-agricultural lifestyle but I'm not sure about that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 04:11:29 2014 No.5096586 >>5096580 OK, I figured that. And what does that have to do with leftism? If anything, that would need to collectively enforced.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 06:31:34 2014 No.5096836 >>5096352 >We do not suggest that women, Indians, etc., ARE inferior What a pussy

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 06:44:38 2014 No.5096865 >>5096352 It almost reminds me of Nietzsche's criticism of Christianity, especially his claims that it venerates weakness. Teddy was at least somewhat well read, and it shows.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 06:49:14 2014 No.5096878

>>5096323
>and the setting and attainment of goals?
I always find this complaint strange. What about 'modern society' stops people from setting their own goals? Assuming they're in the growing proportion of humanity which doesn't have to worry about basic survival any more, do people not have unprecedented freedom to determine their own goals?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 06:53:27 2014 No.5096894

>>5096878

Teddy claims that those goals will always be unfulfilling, because they aren't directly necessary to your own survival.

Modern society also imposes masses of arbitrary rules and creates situations that are psychologically very distressing for humans (crowding, loud noise, lack of nature). Hence your life is destined to be unfulfilling no matter what goals you achieve.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 07:00:06 2014 No.5096906 >>5096323 no, those things are the main staples of the human experience, no matter our technology.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 07:02:05 2014 No.5096910 >>5096396 i dont think that you could say that lit is either left or right

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 07:52:43 2014 No.5096994 >>5096323 He was correct, but he was still retarded. You can refer to screenshots posted here to find out. >>5096378 that's actually a very intelligent post

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 08:53:10 2014 No.5097142

>>5096894
>Teddy claims that those goals will always be unfulfilling, because they aren't directly necessary to your own survival.

And this is exactly where his argument falls apart, at the very foundations. He assumes that only primal, instinctual pride in one's own prowess can provide enough fulfilment for a lifetime, when in fact the most vital kind of fulfilment that we, as social animals, can attain is that of love, friendship and community. The moments we most cherish in life are not the small victories of daily survival but the ones spent in the company of people we love; these are the memories that we look back on with fondness when we reach the end of our lives.

This oversight is not surprising when we consider his long estrangement from not just society but his own family and loved ones, and in the end is just further evidence of how deep his misunderstanding of the human psyche really is.

newt !!HuBsHNAco3n Sat Jul 5 09:13:11 2014 No.5097182

>>5096574
This is what leftists do when faced with a modest, self-explanatory, undeniably true statement that disagree with their forced equality mindset. They simply say how offended or shocked they are.

Such a womanly declaration.

It is a pity that intelligent people do not have more children and stupid people have so many.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 09:53:53 2014 No.5097299

>>5097182
>It is a pity that intelligent people do not have more children and stupid people have so many

That's because having kids it's not the most intelligent thing to do, given the current circunstances. If people are intelligent they won¡'t have many children and therefore there will be less intelligent people, making the choice of having more children even more stupid and so on. Humanity pulls back to the neolithic, we should never have left

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 10:30:33 2014 No.5097414

>>5096894
>Teddy claims that those goals will always be unfulfilling, because they aren't directly necessary to your own survival
Assuming that genuinely is a problem, it's very easy to make them necessary, though. Ditch everything you own and go live in the wild. Or a warzone somewhere.

The former also solves this problem:
>Modern society also imposes masses of arbitrary rules and creates situations that are psychologically very distressing for humans (crowding, loud noise, lack of nature)

I mean really, how are these problems supposed to be insurmountable? It's still pretty easy to just walk away.

>>	newt !!HuBsHNAco3n Sat Jul 5 10:34:54 2014 No.5097427 >>5097299 the choice of having kids can't be analysed as intelligent or not.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 10:43:26 2014 No.5097444

>>5096352
>>5096368

Nietzsche said almost the same thing but didnt mentioun Liberalism but simply stated the intuition that its giving off. Those up high will lower themselves instead of raising those lower or something along those lines

Can somone post the extract if they know what im on about

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 10:52:53 2014 No.5097469 >>5097444 Democracy is the political heir to Christianity, or something like that. Nietzsche worried that great individuals would be seduced by the rabble's moralizing -- and would stifle their potential.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 10:56:07 2014 No.5097477 >>5097469 By Democracys moralizing or Christianitys? Im guessing its Christianity and a Democractic one wouldnt make sense

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 10:56:16 2014 No.5097479 >>5097469 stifle their own potential*

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 11:17:10 2014 No.5097568

>>5097477

The moralizing of the herd, in whatever form, seeks to bring everyone down to the same level. It elevates meekness, charity, neighborly love, etc., above strength, power, and self-assertion, which are the natural and vital traits in man.

Nietzsche thought that this inversion of man's nature -- the prescription of a moral code that denies what is "good" in man -- was done to universalize the plight of the slave. It's born out of resentment (or ressentiment) of the masters, who were happy, strong, powerful, and rich. The slaves, on the other hand, were unhappy, weak, powerless, and poor. To justify their weak state, and to make sense of their suffering, they created a morality that denies the master's way of living and exalts theirs.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 11:22:17 2014 No.5097588 >>5097427 Why not?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 11:22:39 2014 No.5097591

>>5097568

The slaves teach the masters that the causes of slavery are evil: strength, domination, exploitation. And then seduce them to a state of weakness. When everyone in a society converts to this morality, it produces mediocrity and banality (according to Nietzsche).

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 11:25:52 2014 No.5097603

>>5097591

I should also note that, with Nietzsche's conception of what's "natural" and "vital" (and therefore valid), it's important to understand the will to power -- which, to him, is the main driving force of human behavior. In slave morality, the will turns against itself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 11:41:10 2014 No.5097664 Oh look, another Nietzsche seminar.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 12:06:12 2014 No.5097752

>>5097142
>And this is exactly where his argument falls apart, at the very foundations.
I rolled my eyes when i read this.

>when in fact the most vital kind of fulfilment that we, as social animals, can attain is that of love, friendship and community.
"The most vital" != all that's necessary.

You should probably read his manifesto before commenting on it you stooge.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 12:10:19 2014 No.5097768

>>5097414
>It's still pretty easy to just walk away.
Ignoring the fact that there are all sorts of legal restraints, debt obligations, etc. preventing people from owning land out in the middle of nowhere, you're ignoring the psychological restraint.

Kaczysnki himself notes that if modern civilization were to collapse, it would be a traumatizing experience for people because they're used to this type of system. They're like fat kids addicted to ice cream.

Did you read his manifesto? Why do people feel comfortable quoting a line or two and think they can demolish his entire worldview? Try investing some energy into it guys. Not that hard.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 12:11:42 2014 No.5097771 that's the problem with people who study only STEM, they waste all their brain power doing math tricks and spend no time considering life so they get stuck on these idiotic wacko ideologies

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 12:16:02 2014 No.5097786

>>5096323

>Kaczynski's original goal was to move out to a secluded place and become self-sufficient so that he could live autonomously. He began to teach himself survival skills such as tracking, edible plant identification, and how to construct primitive technologies such as bow drills. He quickly realized that it was not possible for him to live that way, as a result of watching the wild land around him get destroyed by development and industry.

What this man saw was the future. And I can understand why he got mad

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 12:44:28 2014 No.5097866

>>5097768
>>5097752

The guy is a fucking anti-social piece of shit who preferred to live on his own in the woods than with the people who loved him, and then tried to kill a bunch of innocent people just so that somebody would actually read the shitty book that he wrote. His opinions on what normal, mentally stable human beings want out of life are worthless. If you find yourself agreeing with him it's because you're as ego-centric and detached from reality as he is.

People don't want to struggle for survival, they want to make their lives easier and less stressful. This goes all the way back to his tribal primitive lifestyle that he so adores. Humans have always invented shit to make their lives easier, whether it's a spear tipped with flint rather than a sharpened stick, or a washing machine that means they no longer have to spend hours washing clothes by hand. That is the shit people want.

We get all the conflict we need from modern society. Shit is already tough for most people, and not because they lack direction or motivation. It's because they have to work hard just to get by. Making shit harder for everyone won't make them happier, you fucking moron. Letting them spend more time with their friends and family will.

His whole perception of society is hopelessly skewed. Just look at how hard he projects his insecurities onto his hated leftists. He sees equal opportunity movements and thinks that the white man forces them on minorities, rather than the other way around, and thinks that it means handing wealth down on a silver platter and not just exactly what claims to be: a means for every man and woman to prosper based on their individual merit and not the circumstances of their birth.

Fuck him and fuck you too.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 12:48:28 2014 No.5097872 >>5097866 >writes some kind of ranty anti-leftist psychoanalysis of identity politics >becomes an anarcho-primitivist wacko with no sense of irony i don't think he was very good at thinking

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 12:57:48 2014 No.5097904

>>5097866
We live in a society today where we have all the comfort we could want, yet people generally aren't happy. Apparently comfort is not what it's chalked up to be.

>People don't want to struggle for survival
On the contrary I think most people (especially men but not exclusively) want to struggle for survival. That's one reason why escapist fantasies are so popular, like Lord of the Rings.

>and then tried to kill a bunch of innocent people just so that somebody would actually read the shitty book that he wrote
Sounds fine to me. I praise him for it.

>People don't want to struggle for survival, they want to make their lives easier and less stressful
I think the source of stress matters. But I also think you're overestimating the stress primitive people are under. Kaczynski said:
"One thing I found when living in the woods was that you get so that you don't worry about the future, you don't worry about dying, if things are good right now you think, 'well, if I die next week, so what, things are good right now.' I think it was Jane Austen who wrote in one of her novels that happiness is alwavs something that you are anticipating in the future, not something that you have right now. This isn't always true. Perhaps it is true in civilization, but when you get out of the system and become re-adapted to a different way of life, happiness is often something that you have right now."
http://www.primitivism.com/kaczynski.htm

>Letting them spend more time with their friends and family will.
This is such a weird fixation. Family time is important but it's not all that's important.

>Fuck him and fuck you too.
I don't see why you're bothering if you still won't read his manifesto. What's the point? You seem to have a surface-level understanding of what he's advocating. He actually addresses some of your emotional knee-jerk reactions.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 13:02:58 2014 No.5097914 >>5096865 Here's a list of books he owned and wanted back: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/book-list?page=1

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 13:49:38 2014 No.5098014

>>5097904
You're just projecting the same shit onto society that he did. The depression and anxiety that our modern society can create is a result of conflict borne out of the inequality and unfairness of our current model of free market capitalism - it has less to do with technological comforts and everything to do with the mindset that allows for shit like planned obsolescence, tax avoidance and shareholder value maximization.

Socialising is far and away the greatest source of happiness for human beings. That's just fact. Struggling against adversity can help solidify a person ideologically but I strongly disagree with the assessment that it has any great importance in the pursuit of general happiness.

Just because we like to tell stories full of conflict doesn't mean we actually want to experience the shit that goes on in those stories. Popular escapism comes in the form of fictions and fantasies for a reason - they are safe forms of excitement where conflict and adversity can be experienced vicariously with no consequence. We do not actually want those consequences. We do not want to suffer needlessly.

Of course, true appreciation of happiness comes only when you can compare it to the experience of suffering, but again - life's tough as it is. Hell, just seeing people you love come and go throughout your life is trauma enough for you to sit back and feel grateful for the good times.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 13:53:23 2014 No.5098022 >>5097904 >Sounds fine to me. I praise him for it. You admit it then, you're as psychotic as he is

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 13:55:24 2014 No.5098032

>>5098014
>Socialising is far and away the greatest source of happiness for human beings.
I'm human, and I usually don't get any happiness from socializing. Mostly, it's stressful, but occasionally I will get a little bit of happiness from it. Still, I would get more happiness from proving something in mathematics.

>The depression and anxiety that our modern society can create is a result of conflict borne out of the inequality and unfairness of our current model of free market capitalism
What? I've been diagnosed with "depression" (back when I still believed in mental illness) and I don't understand this sentiment at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 13:58:52 2014 No.5098038 >>5098022 >implying he is psychotic

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:12:04 2014 No.5098064

>>5096396
A lot of us are heavily leftist, but not in the modern sense of the word. Most of the leftists I know are left in the Marxist sense and despise the bastardization of the left that shuns the working class and strokes itself off on the moral high ground of identity politics.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:13:52 2014 No.5098065 >>5098014 >Socialising is far and away the greatest source of happiness for human beings. what are drugs?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:14:13 2014 No.5098068

>>5098032
>introverted
>anti-social
>enjoys mathematics more than people

Well fuck dude. OF COURSE you feel a kindred spirit with the unabomber.

The vast majority of our species experiences life differently than you do. This is what Kraczynski failed to understand. You both project the wrong needs and desires onto the rest of us.

The depression thing: for most people it is the accumulation of stress. Stress is the result of our environment (this was about as much as Kraczynski got right). Our modern environment hinges on free market capitalism. It's effects reach us every day.

>>5098038
If I remember rightly he was very adamant that the court recognise him as sound of mind. Either way, pre-meditated murder requires a certain level of mental deviance and instability.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:15:48 2014 No.5098069 >>5096378 when did he say that? Is there a source??

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:17:12 2014 No.5098071 >>5098065 A society that is 100% high 100% of the time is not viable

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:18:08 2014 No.5098072

>>5096323
He doesn't (wish to) understand that pre-modern people are also deprived of autonomy, self-sufficiency, and the setting and attainment of goals. Even more so, actually.

He makes the same mistake as a lot of angsty idealists do: He sees his dissatisfaction as a symptom of one particular way of living, rather than inherent to his outlook.

People can live fulfilled lives in contemporary society and they could under other social arrangements as well.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:22:27 2014 No.5098079

>>5098072
exactly, thank you. even if the unabomber lived with a tribe of amazonian aborigines he would probably feel "oppressed by society", which is to say he blame society for his poor social intelligence and skills, and run off into the woods to live on grasshoppers and tree bark

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:25:30 2014 No.5098086 the unibomber was a repressed homo who ran off into the woods to beat his meat

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:26:19 2014 No.5098089 >>5098079 Yep. Tribal communities depend on strong social cohesion. Those who prefer to isolate themselves will never be satisfied by any form of society.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:32:10 2014 No.5098115 >>5098079 >>5098089 >implying the western world isn't tribal already

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 14:33:53 2014 No.5098118 >>5098072 >People can live fulfilled lives in contemporary society Yes, it is certainly possible to deceive yourself likewise

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:02:20 2014 No.5098213 >>5096352 >dichotomous thinking >extremist Who would have guessed. I suppose I should have expected /lit/ to lap up an overly simplified worldview that already fit their expectations

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:05:11 2014 No.5098217 >>5098213 Because calling it dichotomous, extremist and oversimplified is clearly enough to refute it

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:11:54 2014 No.5098242 >>5098217 its basically a more eloquently worded version of elliot rodgers whingey bullshit except teds a queer virgin rather than a cis beta

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:19:07 2014 No.5098270 >>5098242 I see, but can you use actual argumentation now?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:20:27 2014 No.5098276
File: 46 KB, 376x401, sheeple[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5098217
I'd argue that any dichotomous view of sociological issues is inherently incorrect, one need only be an angsty teenager to watch Donnie Darko and realize how obvious that one is.
The guy's not dumb and he makes some good points about issues that may need to be addressed, but exploding pipe bombs or whatnot in innocent people's faces to spread your message should obviously send a red alert as to how you take his message. People who are extremists tend to have a dichotomous worldview that allows them to shape their world around pic related. He really just took the McCarthy route with his ideology and I'm willing to bet that some of you are actually agreeing with it, but calling everyone who disagrees with you unfulfilled, weak, inferior, or a loser probably says much more about him than it does anyone else. He gives those same reasons to explain why his brother turned him in. He is a walking tragedy and we can only hope that he gets put out of his misery soon.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:42:59 2014 No.5098372 >>5098276 I cannot state why I disagree with you without sounding like a sociopath. I'll just leave this sad_but_true quote here: "It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both."

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:48:08 2014 No.5098388

No, modern civilization grants autonomy through the creation of leisure time. Turn the clock back and, rather than slaving for 9 hours a day so you can afford a house, a car and nice food you'd slave for 14 hours a day so you can stave off dying with rotted potatoes.

He was a nut who got pissed off over some planes flying over his hut, albeit a rather intelligent, resourceful one.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:50:41 2014 No.5098401

>>5098069
If you google a sentence from the paragraph it'll take you to a forum post on shockedbeyondbelief written by the user named "Smiggles".

I forget how the connection between Smiggles and Lanza (they being the same person) was established though.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:55:50 2014 No.5098419

>>5098388
There's a difference between slaving away for your own sake and slaving away for some soulless corporation.

10 hours of farm work is infinitely more fulfilling than 10 hours at a call center being berated by entitled fat consumerist cunts.

If you can't appreciate the value of growing and building then you don't need to take part in this discussion since you're clearly inhuman.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 15:59:30 2014 No.5098441 >>5098419 You don't work nearly as hard in practically any first world job (with the exception of shit like mining) as you do with non mechanised subsistence farming. You're romanticizing the hell out of it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:00:18 2014 No.5098444

>>5098014
>Socialising is far and away the greatest source of happiness for human beings.
Probably agreed. You harp on this point but I don't understand why. Family connection isn't the only requirement for happiness. For most people I think the power process that Kaczynski defined (and which is outlined in the OP) is necessary too.

>Just because we like to tell stories full of conflict doesn't mean we actually want to experience the shit that goes on in those stories.
On the contrary, I think most people if given the choice would love to ditch this world for a fantastic world like LotR.

Hell, apparently people became depressed after watching Avatar: "That's all I have been doing as of late, searching the Internet for more info about 'Avatar.' I guess that helps. It's so hard I can't force myself to think that it's just a movie, and to get over it, that living like the Na'vi will never happen. I think I need a rebound movie."
http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/11/avatar.movie.blues/

People feel stuck in the system we have.

>is trauma enough for you to sit back and feel grateful for the good times.
Times aren't good. Mental illnesses are at an all-time high.

Humans instinctively seek comfort. I agree. That doesn't mean excess comfort is good for psychological well-being.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:04:34 2014 No.5098463

>>5098072
>He doesn't (wish to) understand that pre-modern people are also deprived of autonomy, self-sufficiency, and the setting and attainment of goals.
In what way? Kaczynski sees "hobbies" as surrogate activities that are meant to bring satisfaction in a world where we do not directly provide for ourselves. Instead we have jobs in which we have no autonomy because we have to answer to a boss (or if you're a boss you have to answer to your customers or your government) and we derive no satisfaction because the work itself feels meaningless.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:05:56 2014 No.5098473 >>5098213 >overly simplified His work is about the industrial revolution and its consequences. He touched upon leftist psychology but I'm sure there's much more he could say about it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:08:46 2014 No.5098490

>>5098276
>d argue that any dichotomous view of sociological issues

7. But what is leftism? During the first half of the 20th century leftism could have been practically identified with socialism. Today the movement is fragmented and it is not clear who can properly be called a leftist. When we speak of leftists in this article we have in mind mainly socialists, collectivists, “politically correct” types, feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and the like. But not everyone who is associated with one of these movements is a leftist. What we are trying to get at in discussing leftism is not so much movement or an ideology as a psychological type, or rather a collection of related types. Thus, what we mean by “leftism” will emerge more clearly in the course of our discussion of leftist psychology. (Also, see paragraphs 227-230.)

8. Even so, our conception of leftism will remain a good deal less clear than we would wish, but there doesn’t seem to be any remedy for this. All we are trying to do here is indicate in a rough and approximate way the two psychological tendencies that we believe are the main driving force of modern leftism. We by no means claim to be telling the WHOLE truth about leftist psychology. Also, our discussion is meant to apply to modern leftism only. We leave open the question of the extent to which our discussion could be applied to the leftists of the 19th and early 20th centuries.

Kaczynski always speaks in generalities/tendencies. Nothing wrong with that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:08:49 2014 No.5098491 >>5098441 Hard work means it's not fulfilling? Do you know what you're saying?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:10:28 2014 No.5098495

>>5098490
18. Modern leftish philosophers tend to dismiss reason, science, objective reality and to insist that everything is culturally relative. It is true that one can ask serious questions about the foundations of scientific knowledge and about how, if at all, the concept of objective reality can be defined. But it is obvious that modern leftish philosophers are not simply cool-headed logicians systematically analyzing the foundations of knowledge. They are deeply involved emotionally in their attack on truth and reality. They attack these concepts because of their own psychological needs. For one thing, their attack is an outlet for hostility, and, to the extent that it is successful, it satisfies the drive for power. More importantly, the leftist hates science and rationality because they classify certain beliefs as true (i.e., successful, superior) and other beliefs as false (i.e., failed, inferior). The leftist’s feelings of inferiority run so deep that he cannot tolerate any classification of some things as successful or superior and other things as failed or inferior. This also underlies the rejection by many leftists of the concept of mental illness and of the utility of IQ tests. Leftists are antagonistic to genetic explanations of human abilities or behavior because such explanations tend to make some persons appear superior or inferior to others. Leftists prefer to give society the credit or blame for an individual’s ability or lack of it. Thus if a person is “inferior” it is not his fault, but society’s, because he has not been brought up properly.

>tend to
>tend to

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:10:55 2014 No.5098499

>>5098463
Isn't that your/his fault for choosing a job that brings no satisfaction or finding none in the job you're doing? I work in a medical pathology lab, it's tough but I find it genuinely satisfying, whether I'm actually matching blood for patients or just doing paperwork, it's all a necessary contribution to the end result.

Subsistence farming only offers the advantage for the mentally limited who can't see the benefit of their work beyond the carrots on their plate. I do garden as a hobby but it would suck to produce all my food, both in the much more limited range of staples I'd have to subside off and in the time that would need to be invested.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:12:59 2014 No.5098508 File: 339 KB, 960x720, LUCE-IRIGARAY.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5098495 Very related. Anyone have the direct quote?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:13:20 2014 No.5098509 >>5098491 Would it be more fulfilling if I chopped my fingers off to make the work even harder?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:14:14 2014 No.5098514 >>5098441 go away idiot

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:15:18 2014 No.5098521 >>5098514 Why are you even here? Surely, you'd be a lot more fulfilled if you burnt your computer and started toiling the land. Hop to it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:16:12 2014 No.5098523

http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2003/03/03/smallb7.html
Medieval peasants worked less than we do today.

>>5098499
>for choosing a job
People don't have choice. Even most people working jobs they consider comfortable had to get there through luck, social networking, and working soul-crushing jobs. That is why people are dissatisfied.

>Subsistence farming only offers the advantage for the mentally limited who can't see the benefit of their work beyond the carrots on their plate.
Well ideally we'd revert back to a hunter-gatherer society. But working for some "greater good" is just a surrogate activity that derives a bit of satisfaction.

>>5098509
He's not saying the difficulty is what makes it satisfying (although that's partially true). He's saying that difficulty does not make it dissatisfying.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:19:16 2014 No.5098536

>>5098499
Do you think you are the average person?

Why do people always do that?

>smoking isn't bad cuz my grandma is 100
>women aren't weaker cuz my cousin beats me up

>Subsistence farming only offers the advantage for the mentally limited who can't see the benefit of their work beyond the carrots on their plate
Or people who can't find fulfillment no matter what job they do. Not everyone is lucky enough to work in a field they love.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:21:44 2014 No.5098543 I wonder how many leftists in this thread are making arguments in favor of empty soul crushing consumerist capitalism just because they don't like that Kaczynski insulted them.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:22:03 2014 No.5098544

>>5098444
They might want to live in the society of Middle-Earth or Pandora but they would not want to be one of the foot-soldiers fighting the great battles which are the basis of the conflict and excitement in those stories.

I think you're trying to make a point that deviates from the original reason LotR was brought into this conversation though, which was that people want to struggle against adversity which is why they enjoy escapist fantasy. Perhaps you're arguing that they enjoy the rural life embodied by the hobbits, or the tribal life of the Na'vi. In either case, the same point can be made - they enjoy the idea of these exotic ways of life, so different from their own, but these are still highly romanticized versions of such societies wherein every character is basically free to be as idle as they please. Think of Bilbo smoking pipeweed on his doorstep - what job does Bilbo even have? He comes from old hobbit money; his ancestors were rich, and so he has a pantry overflowing with food and all the time in the world to sit and eat and read and smoke. As for the Na'vi, they seem to frolick amongst the bio-luminescent trees day and night, riding six-legged horses and dragons.

Neither work ever shows the daily minutiae and struggles of the people who inhabit these worlds. They are depicted -for thematic reasons - as idyllic ways of life. Of course people would be attracted to a way of life that is categorically stated to be perfect and idyllic by its author.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:25:17 2014 No.5098557

>>5098544
>Neither work ever shows the daily minutiae and struggles of the people who inhabit these worlds
I think people would still prefer those struggles over the psychological struggles we go through today. But still, when watching LotR people are aware that Sam and Frodo are on the brink of starvation.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:25:45 2014 No.5098562

>>5098544
You just keep repeating "it would be difficult" as if that's not a given. The point is you're taking care of yourself. You're working for your own purpose. You're building something for your children to inherit. You're probably known to the community around you too. It's the opposite of the atomized role you have in a corporate machine where they give you vouchers for your work that rarely benefits you directly.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:26:06 2014 No.5098563

>>5098523
>Even most people working jobs they consider comfortable had to get there through luck, social networking, and working soul-crushing jobs.
I've worked soul crushing jobs before (at least, they seemed to crush the souls of those around me). I don't believe this is due to the nature of the job but more what they believe society has promised them.

>Well ideally we'd revert back to a hunter-gatherer society.
Are you going to be one of the 90% of the population that would need to be killed to make that sustainable?

>>5098536
>Do you think you are the average person?
Do you? I accept that it would be very hard for someone in a first world country to feed and clothe themselves by simply working the land because of bureaucracy but, if this is such a desirable way to live, why doesn't a democratic nation (assuming you live in one) restructure itself to facilitate this or, alternatively, why don't more people flee to areas where that lifestyle is possible.

>Not everyone is lucky enough to work in a field they love.

Why can't they find happiness in simply doing a really good job or in the fruits of their labour?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:28:12 2014 No.5098570 >>5098543 If anything, it strikes me as something leftists would embrace more readily than the right. You don't see too many neo-cons waxing lyrical about their raw food, neolithic, vegan diet.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:28:28 2014 No.5098574

>>5098562
It's strange to me that he's emphasizing the hard work. I don't think people are opposed to hard work. I think people are opposed to hard work that is disconnected from their livelihood.

Roofing all day is a bitch. Maintaining a garden can be pleasurable.

But above both of those, hunting a mammoth would be badass.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:30:31 2014 No.5098587

>>5098570
Leftists look down on tribalism. They see a tribalist/primtivist as someone who's weak and needs assistance.
Rightists see tribalists/primitivists as strong and someone to admire.

You tell a leftist that we should go back 5k years and they'll say, "W-what about iPhones and cars?"
You tell a rightist and they'll say "Hunting and fishing all day? Cool."

I'm speaking in generalizations but you get the point.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:30:56 2014 No.5098589 >>5098495 So he acknowledges that he's effectively creating a strawman?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:31:10 2014 No.5098591

>>5098543
Kraczynski wanted to get rid of all modern technology. That would suck more than what we have now.

Besides, we don't have particularly long to wait before the free market model is abandoned out of necessity. Resource scarcity and energy crises are creeping over the horizon as we speak.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:31:54 2014 No.5098594 >>5096350 Does anybody want to buy my book?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:33:05 2014 No.5098598 >>5098587 >but you get the point. . . . That you're retarded?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:33:22 2014 No.5098599 >>5098589 >Most of X thinks Y. >W-well not all of X thinks Y! I'm not seeing the strawman.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:33:30 2014 No.5098601

>>5098563
>Are you going to be one of the 90% of the population that would need to be killed to make that sustainable?
Not him, but it's inevitable as people become more and more detached from their humanity. I'd rather be one of the ones who are prepared for a collapse.

>if this is such a desirable way to live, why doesn't a democratic nation (assuming you live in one) restructure itself to facilitate this or, alternatively, why don't more people flee to areas where that lifestyle is possible.
I don't think it's "desirable" for most people. Not consciously. But every year there's an increasing amount of discontent among the population. It's going to reach critical mass at some point. Probably in the form of civil war/balkanization/racial conflicts.

I don't think we need to go to the extreme measures Kaczynski suggests, but the problem he presents is very real. It may not be technology itself that's the problem, but the consequences technology has had on us:

http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/155-the-limits-of-human-scale/

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:34:23 2014 No.5098603 >>5098598 I don't understand what you hope to gain when you make 3 word responses calling me names. What's the point? I think you're stupid too but why would I dedicate a post to that?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:35:25 2014 No.5098606 >>5098563 >Are you going to be one of the 90% of the population that would need to be killed to make that sustainable? Yes actually. I don't say that to be a hardass either. I don't see myself living through a collapse to be honest.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:37:24 2014 No.5098614

>>5098570
But you do see plenty of conservative farmers, traditionalists, and people with anti-federal sympathies.

But you're right. Based on what leftists say, you would think they would support anti-corporatism, anti-bureaucracy, and pro-family/anti-urban policies.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:37:50 2014 No.5098616 >>5097768 >owning land out in the middle of nowhere >owning Wow, is that what he argues for? What a fascinatingly American revolutionary. Prepared to blow shit up, not prepared to question the notion of property.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:42:04 2014 No.5098625

>>5098591
But like Marx, he has valid criticisms of the system we have. I'm as anti-marxist as it gets but I acknowledge quite a few of the problems he presents as valid.

Don't discredit the entire message because one part is unappealing. That's a juvenile way of thinking. White nationalists have plenty of valid gripes as well, but people discredit everything because they're violent apes about it. Same with any group really. There's no "single" solution to a society that is so large and interconnected with other societies. Everyone thinks they have the perfect singular solution "we've solved humanity!" ignoring that the problems and their causes are massive and complex.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:45:17 2014 No.5098641

>>5098601
I'm curious, what goals/outcome do you see from this collapse or conflict? In my view, people are less willing to go to war now than they've ever been. Sure, there are outliers but instant global communication has fostered more cohesiveness than it has conflict. The flip side of this is that you're also more able to see the more aggressive views but I don't think this reflects a general shift in public attitude.

>>5098606
As above, what sort of collapse to you envision? Additionally, what would make this collapse lasting? Society originally sprang forth from the hands and minds of man, what would stop it doing so again?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:47:01 2014 No.5098646 >>5098463 Pretty sure anon's point was that 'pre-modern people' were generally not autonomous, self-sufficient, and free to set their own goals.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:47:30 2014 No.5098647 >>5098616 He's probably not retarded and views property through an evolutionary lens. Did hunter-gatherers believe in property as we define it today?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:48:09 2014 No.5098649

>>5098557
>I think people would still prefer...
Well, I disagree.

>Sam and Frodo
Of course some would want to be the hero of the story. "I want to be Luke Skywalker! I want to be Han Solo!"

>>5098562
The proposal is not as simple as you're making it out to be. Cog in the machine vs. subsistence farmer are not the only options, and their are greater trade-offs to be made if you choose primitivism as well (such as the lack of modern medicine and technologies that eliminate further drudgery such as washing clothes, travelling long distances, difficulty of communication, providing light in the dark and heat in the cold, etc.)

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 16:56:36 2014 No.5098674

>>5098641
The collapse isn't a goal. It's(supposedly) an inevitability. Kaczynski believed the sooner it happens, the less painful it will be. He believed that our current society isn't sustainable.
>>5098649
I don't support primitivism. I support a reduction of the scale of society:
http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/155-the-limits-of-human-scale/

This will make our work more directly meaningful to us and we won't have to sacrifice the comforts of modern technology(which no one would give up willingly anyway). It's a way to minimize the damage of a collapse as well.

The symptoms Kaczynski notices are valid. His solution is invalid because he attributes it *solely* to technology. In reality, society has become too large, impersonal, and removed of tradition/duty for anyone to feel like they're contributing meaningfully. This leads people to mindless hedonism and empty consumerism as their only real goals in life. It's become about who can have the most fun. That's not fulfilling to anyone with a soul.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:01:21 2014 No.5098697

>>5098641
The only way a collapse would last is if currently accessible resources become inaccessible because we're no longer able to create the equipment necessary.

Or if agriculture is currently only sustainable because of our relatively moderate climate, which will come to an end with global warming.

This would have to happen before alternative energies are developed.

>>5098649
Physical suffering and then death is better than prolonged psychological suffering. That, and many illnesses we have today are a result of modern civilization. Obesity, heart disease, certain cancers, malaria (population density allows certain diseases to easily spread), etc.
Nobody's saying tribal life is paradise. It's simply overall better than what we have. Of course things like war, mass rape, etc. wouldn't be pleasant.

>>5098674
Technology is what sustains current population density.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:05:24 2014 No.5098711

>>5098601
It's not technology that's the problem, it's consumerist free market capitalism. In the future it will be necessary for us to shift to a socio-economic system that values sustainability rather than consumption and quality of life rather than materialism.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:11:02 2014 No.5098730

>>5098674
That's the thing I find so hard to believe, not because it's uncomfortable to live with but because it's not in the nature of man. Societies have historically collapsed due to invasion or loss of resources. As it stands, there isn't a credible threat to first world countries by other nations or groups who seek to dismantle them. Sure there are followers of certain religions who gnash their teeth at the decadence of the west but, while they might kill a few hundred here and there and, once in a blue moon, wipe out a thousand they ultimately harshen our resolve against their beliefs. As for resources, even things like oil and copper don't suddenly go away overnight, prices go up and less profitable sources are exploited. Eventually, they must run out but that's centuries off and the only reason we rely on these specific resources in the first place is because of their cost effectiveness.

Furthermore, I believe the feeling of disconnection from society has always existed, even in pre-industrial society. The only difference is that we are better informed of it. As for mindless hedonism, consumerism et al. I would attribute that to you being aware of the lowest common denominator in society, you see no value in it and so cannot see how others could see value in it. You are under little or no obligation to engage in these activities, in fact, in terms of your place within the societal hierarchy, you are more free to undertake a wider variety of leisure activities, both provided and of your own making, than at any point in history. Defining what you find fulfilling as the only way to be fulfilled is as myopic as the view you ascribe to those you look down upon.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:13:43 2014 No.5098745

I have to say as much of a faggot as Teddy K was and despite a few equally angry faggots here and there, this thread has been one of the better Unabomber threads I've seen on /lit/. Most of the time their full of leakage from the septic tank that is /pol/ who hype up Teddy for his anti-leftism.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:14:34 2014 No.5098749

>>5098697
It's more than population density. Globalization, mass immigration, the destruction of tradition, ease of travel, wealth concentration. Lots of things.

Kurt Vonnegut actually noticed something related to this:
>But the delight the family took in itself was permanently crippled, I think, by the sudden American hatred for all things German which unsheathed itself when this country entered the First World War, five years before I was born.
>Children in our family were no longer taught German. Neither were they encouraged to admire German music or literature or art or science. My brother and sister and I were raised as though Germany were as foreign to us as Paraguay.
>We were deprived of Europe, except for what we might learn of it at school.
>We lost thousands of years in a very short time–and then tens of thousands of American dollars after that, and the summer cottages and so on.
>And our family became a lot less interesting, especially to itself.
>So–by the time the Great Depression and a Second World War were over, it was easy for my brother and my sister and me to wander away from Indianapolis.
>And, of all the relatives we left behind, not one could think of a reason why we should come home again.
>We didn’t belong anywhere in particular any more. We were interchangeable parts in the American machine.

http://mpcdot.com/forums/topic/7937-kurt-vonnegut-technology-atomisation-socialism-and-scale/

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:22:30 2014 No.5098774

>>5098730
What about catastrophic demographic change? What about extremely low birth rates? What about civil wars? No one is forcing *me* the individual to participate in a hedonistic short-sighted materialistic lifestyle. But the individual is irrelevant. What matters is large-scale societal patterns that cater to certain vices(casual sex culture, capitalistic consumerism, destruction of traditional obligations). These have an accumulative effect that's probably not going to be pleasant. We have a generation where 1/4 of all children are going to be raised by single moms. And before you say it, yes I'm sure you know single moms who are just wonderful, but the statistics are hard to ignore. 1/4 of the entire population. With an increasing number of foreign-born immigrants with little to no loyalty to the society they're currently living in.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:31:40 2014 No.5098796 >>5097866 Kill yourself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:39:22 2014 No.5098820 >>5098774 None of those things would lead to a total collapse of global civilisation

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:41:04 2014 No.5098824 >>5098796 >teddy k sympathiser is an asshole What a surprise

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:43:53 2014 No.5098832 >>5098774 who cares? just become a monk and sit in meditation forever

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:43:56 2014 No.5098833 >>5098820 How would you define a collapse? A significant change from our current standard of living, current national borders, and group ties could qualify as a collapse. What do you think would happen to the world if the USA lost its military control?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:49:08 2014 No.5098847 >>5098820 Yes, China and Russian would do great without us.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:51:02 2014 No.5098853 >>5098833 the world would be a much happier and safer place if all nations gave up their military but if just usa? china or russia would try to replace the vacuum of power

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:52:13 2014 No.5098857 >>5098853 >>5098853 How exactly? Private military now exists.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 17:52:43 2014 No.5098859 >>5098853 And you think that would be a pleasant enjoyable experience where we'd be able to sustain our current standard of living?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:09:13 2014 No.5098896

>>5097142
I like the part where you favor the socially constructed human being over the biologically extant human animal. You privilege the mind over the body, just as social training would have you, and prefer to insist that it's the connection of minds between loved ones in physical proximity and not just the coincidentally induced comfort of synchronization in an electro-chemical sense.

Love, friendship and community are the values of a non-reflective individual whom has internalized culture, and who has furthermore refused to-- out of ignorance, blind or deliberate-- take the time to understand that their values are designed specifically to keep them from killing each other willy-nilly without fear of some Big Other swooping in to kill.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:14:40 2014 No.5098908 >>5096352 Wait was that in his manifesto or whos writing is that. I enjoyed reading that

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:17:31 2014 No.5098920

>>5097866
His point was that the daily struggles was what made life worth living. He quotes pretty early on about why an old King would become an expert in marine biology when he could have lived his life doing almost nothing as an example.

>Making shit harder for everyone won't make them happier.
He's arguing it does. You fucking moron, isn't a valid argument.

Also he wasn't saying be alone in a forest.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:22:32 2014 No.5098941 >>5098920 >Also he wasn't saying be alone in a forest. This is the highest form of existence.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:27:03 2014 No.5098954 >>5098908 Yes, it's his manifesto. But at least you're not like the retarded posers in this thread attempting to rebuke Kaczynski's worldview without even having read the fucking thing. Jesus Christ.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:29:53 2014 No.5098965 >>5098859 when i mentioned happiness i meant everyone else in the world would be happier as a result of not having to deal with the us that doesnt necessarily mean that we in the west would be happier

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:34:12 2014 No.5098979 >>5098896 All primates are instinctively social animals. You're being weird.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:35:02 2014 No.5098984 >>5098979 [citation needed]

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:35:55 2014 No.5098991

>>5096323
>modern civilization leaves people unfulfilled by depriving them of autonomy, self-sufficiency, and the setting and attainment of goals?
sounds like basic Marxism to me; this asshat only gets attention because of the edginess of what he did mixed with the coherency and ease of his ideas

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:37:19 2014 No.5098996 >>5098920 Becoming an expert in marine biology in your free time is not a daily struggle akin to subsistence living. That's a hobby. I thought he said hobbies are worthless or something

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:38:36 2014 No.5099002 >>5098984 What the fuck? Are you serious?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:49:03 2014 No.5099030

>>5097182
Sure it is anon. And it wasn't just me looking on bewildered at that other retard professing his perceived superiority by means of a "haha, yeah" reply to yet another retard. I mean, is it his aim, anon? That we confine breeding to that of the intelligent? Or are we all just waxing each other's dicks here, anon? We, the underappreciated intelligentsia? Oh, the humanity!
Fucking kek, mate. You're a bitch. Hurr, I am portant 2 umen race

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:52:33 2014 No.5099038 >>5098697 >Physical suffering and then death is better than prolonged psychological suffering Only because our current version of justice has chosen to emphasize the latter over the former. Which is very, very recent.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:52:46 2014 No.5099039

>>5098979

We have both creature AND creator in us now, though. We're not strictly animals. There's that part of us, which is unique to our species, that craves individual expression. And of course, there's a bunch of religions and philosophies that strive to get rid of the primate in us. It's not as simple as, "Hur dur, we're all Africans." That's vapid New Atheist shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:57:00 2014 No.5099053 >>5099039 Agreed, anon. You strike me as the sort of person who eats pizza with a fork to further separate you from the animals though. It's perfectly simple to assume we're special because we have opposable thumbs and more complex vocal expression?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 18:58:09 2014 No.5099059

>>5099002
you're posting in a thread that's ultimately about the unabomber's beliefs on a public forum with pseudo-anonymity on the internet, probably from a first world country ('murrca or better europe most likely), trying to argue socialization as preceding rather than following instinct.

check your fucking privilege.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:00:12 2014 No.5099066 There is no "instinct," only histrionics.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:01:04 2014 No.5099069

>>5099030
>professing his perceived superiority
What? Shut up moron.

>We, the underappreciated intelligentsia? Oh, the humanity!
Probably the majority of people posting in this thread are smarter than average. This is regardless if everyone here were a NEET, because "accomplishment" is just a proxy for intelligence.

Do you disagree?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:03:42 2014 No.5099076

>>5099059
>trying to argue socialization as preceding rather than following instinct.
But I'm not, nor was there anything in the previous posts up this chain that suggested otherwise. Social cohesion is a trait shared in all primates, and is incredibly important to human happiness. The argument made by that weird anon up there was that socialising is something that is not instinctive in humans which is just a mindblowingly stupid thing to say.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:04:00 2014 No.5099079 >>5098896 >>5099038 >>5099059 These are my posts in this thread, just so when somebody's wishing me dead they're not including the other three people in their conceptualization

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:04:17 2014 No.5099080 I just wish there was more on his psychological experiments that he was subjected to as an undergraduate

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:06:22 2014 No.5099087

>>5099069
The difference is, I'm not weighing my intelligence against the human race for the human race, retard. In all probability I'm smarter than all of you, but I'm not crying about it or rubbing my dick up against the rest of yours. There is no "human race" until you start playing bitch, coddling yourself in amongst others, taking shelter from infinity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:08:28 2014 No.5099092 >>5099039 Of course we are complex sapient beings. That doesn't change the fact that instinct still plays a role in our brain chemistry, or that the instinct for social cohesion has not played a significant role in the evolution of our order.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:13:17 2014 No.5099121 >>5099087 >I'm not weighing my intelligence against the human race Nobody did that. At least I didn't do it. >but I'm not crying about it or rubbing my dick up against the rest of yours. Haha what? You just did.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:18:43 2014 No.5099141 >>5098014 >trying to convince people that socializing is the greatest source of happiness >on 4chan good luck with that.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:31:46 2014 No.5099174 >>5099121 >Nobody did that. At least I didn't do it. Sure bro. Weren't half defending yourself either. >Haha what? You just did. No I didn't, there's a considerable difference. Largely, it rests in that I'm not for myself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:41:04 2014 No.5099196 I also doubt most people posting in this thread are above average intelligence. I'd say ugliness is the main drive to intellectualism.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:43:22 2014 No.5099201 >>5099174 >half defending Makes perfect sense. What I am doing is pointing out that you're making weird assumptions about people. >>5099196 You're working off some imaginary definition of "intelligence" then.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:44:26 2014 No.5099203 >>5099196 So what you're saying is that you're ugly and and you think you're an intellectual Also, young teddy was a looker so he must have been a retard after all. Or just like some kind of rain man math dude

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 19:48:44 2014 No.5099220 >>5099201 "Weren't half" is a British thing. >see a fat bloke walk past >"That bloke weren't half obese" Implying that he was fully obese

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:06:42 2014 No.5099281 >>5098068 >You both project the wrong needs and desires onto the rest of us. And you toooootally havent been doing that all thread, fuck off extrovert

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:09:54 2014 No.5099290

>>5099203
No, I'm quite handsome by all accounts. And actually, that'd be selling it short. And I'm not saying only ugly people turn to intellectualism either, am I? Non sequiturs, anon, they're tricky. Of course it is nice to imagine yourself amongst some elite.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:10:53 2014 No.5099293 >>5099281 You don't have to be an extrovert to enjoy socializing brah

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:12:24 2014 No.5099295

>>5096323
>Was Kaczynski correct when he argued that modern civilization leaves people unfulfilled

Yes, but mostly NO!

It isn't civlization that does this, it's reality, nature, Samsara. The problem is always part of the human condition until we break free from it.

Society is mostly irrelevant.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:16:29 2014 No.5099310 >>5099295 >>>/b/554870205

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:17:06 2014 No.5099312 >>5099201 The "half" was a colloquialism, anon -- it's used as in to say "you definitely were" where I'm from.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:18:08 2014 No.5099315 >>5099220 Oh...this. Good lookin' out, anon.

Future terrorists Sat Jul 5 20:21:00 2014 No.5099321

>>5096323
>depriving them of autonomy, self-sufficiency
Why is that a bad thing ? If you want to, just go back to your cave-club society without division of labor whatsoever and hunt your deer and build your house and what else you want to do on your own.

>and the setting and attainment of goals
>mimi all goals I set are higher than I can achieve so let's just bomb this place

MKUltra surely fucked him up.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:30:44 2014 No.5099355 >>5096326 HAHAexactly what I was thinking. Perhaps by letter bomb?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:33:21 2014 No.5099361

>>5096323

Just because he felt deprived of autonomy or self-sufficiency doesn't mean everyone does. He also could have addressed such issues in a less extreme way. Psychopath will always try rationalize their insanity though, sometimes by luck some of their points will intersect with rational thinking.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:33:52 2014 No.5099363 >>5099310 why?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:37:06 2014 No.5099374 >>5096415 That's a great poem!

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:41:36 2014 No.5099391

>>5096433

You can't use Cobain's journals. He is being really funny.

"I like to taunt small barking dogs in cars"
"I like to make incisions on the belly's of infants."

Left and right is just a construction, nothing in the universe ever so black and white.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:43:42 2014 No.5099398

>>5096434

He doesn't realize people read his work only as an oddity, the same way people look at killers art. We're not looking at the work seriously, we're looking at it simply because of the infamy of the context in which it was produced. Of he doesn't realize this. He is nuts.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:44:54 2014 No.5099403 >>5099398 Of course he realizes that you fucking moron. That's why he killed people in the first place. Kacyznski is smarter than you. Get over it.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:48:27 2014 No.5099414

>>5099403

Yeah, he is so smart, he is wasting in a supermax and I am free.

He clearly doesn't realize people only read his work because it is the ranting of a lunatic, if he did he would stop correspondence. Instead he complains about "misunderstanding my writings".
Teddy, no one is trying to understand them, we're just laughing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 20:54:41 2014 No.5099424 >>5099403 >Killing and maiming innocent people who don't even know who the fuck I am is the best way to get my work taken seriously I am surely a genius

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:00:21 2014 No.5099446
File: 7 KB, 302x167, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5099403
>Kacyznski is smarter than you. Get over it.

He's smart in the way a piano player is "smarter" than us at piano. Ted was an expert at math, that's about it.

But in terms of wisdom and life skills he is far below the average /b/ anon.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:03:48 2014 No.5099460

Its obviously a significant work that I wish more people would read and thoroughly consider.

Another good work, is 'technological slavery', that Kaczynski wrote in prison. Its longer, and covers a broader amount of topics. My favorite essay from that bunch was attacking hippies for grossly misrepresenting primitive life as peaceful, sustainable, relaxed, or gender equal. The essay is just one stupid hippie claim after another refuted by direct reference to anthropologic facts regarding how violent, racist, sexist, and laborious primitive life is.

It clears up a lot, because some people read into the whole primitivist thing and just end up with more leftist ideas. As if, we need primitive life because it better actualizes these leftist ideals. Kaczynski's answer is that primitive life is good for its own reasons.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:05:32 2014 No.5099466

>>5099446
Kaczynski is smart, and he happened to apply that intelligence to mathematics and other subjects.

Why do people try to redefine "intelligence" as "aptitude"? Being able to play a piano doesn't make you intelligent. Being intelligent lends itself to learning to play an instrument like the piano.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:06:23 2014 No.5099469 >>5099446 >He was smart only with regards to things I dont disagree with him about Im pretty sure he knows how revolting most people consider his writing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:07:12 2014 No.5099471 >>5099424 This.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:08:35 2014 No.5099477 >>5099361 >Just because he felt deprived of autonomy or self-sufficiency doesn't mean everyone does. Did you even read the manifesto?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:09:37 2014 No.5099486 >>5099460 >Kaczynski's answer is that primitive life is good for its own reasons. What an idiot. Nostalgia for a time he didn't live in. The worst kind of people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:10:41 2014 No.5099488 >>5099477 I don't choose to read the rantings of a madman. What ever point could have been made is moot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:11:43 2014 No.5099493 >>5099477 >Was Kaczynski correct when he argued that modern civilization leaves people unfulfilled by depriving them of autonomy, self-sufficiency, Did you?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:12:34 2014 No.5099496

>>5099466
>Why do people try to redefine "intelligence" as "aptitude"?

Intelligence is an aptitude at some seemingly complex task. Whether it's playing the piano or math or translating languages...it doesn't really matter as long as the skill itself has a high learning curve and is seemingly hard to master.

Of course this is semantic word games... the point is his brain was trained for mathematics, not for politics or ethics or cooking or literature.

Aptitude in one area sometimes crosses-over into another, but not in his case :)

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:15:09 2014 No.5099508 >>5099496 >the point is his brain was trained for mathematics He was described as a prodigy from a young age. Kaczynski simply had a superior mental ability and he decided to focus that on mathematics, and later on other subjects.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:16:26 2014 No.5099510 >>5099508 Yet still couldn't into logic

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:17:42 2014 No.5099515 >>5099510 You can say that about any person who's smarter than and disagrees with you. The fact that people have opinions contrary to your own doesn't mean they're dumb.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:18:29 2014 No.5099523

>>5099508
Being a prodigy in mathematics says nothing of what you can do in literature or politics.

There was a thread on a short story Kaczynski wrote as a college student a few months ago. The story felt like it was written by a not particularly bright twelve years old. Nobody is good at everything.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:20:49 2014 No.5099532 File: 222 KB, 640x453, Young_theodore_kaczynski.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5096323 What made him go nuts? He was such a bright promising young man.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:21:50 2014 No.5099537 >>5099508 >He was described as a prodigy from a young age. >prodigy He had potential but it was never developed in anything other than math and in blaming others for his ills.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:22:10 2014 No.5099540 >>5099515 Uhhh I think it's more about sending anonymous bombs to people than simply disagreeing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:22:22 2014 No.5099541 >>5099532 He was one of the test subjects of the MK-ultra CIA program. Pretty nasty shit.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:22:23 2014 No.5099542

>>5099488

Dont knock it until youve read it. If you seriously want to dismiss a writing you have to, at least for a moment, take it seriously and give it a fair shake.

Otherwise your comments are just a really shallow placement of priority on your own opinion, rather than discussion of that opinion.

>>5099493

Yeah I did.

Here are some points that I remember Kaczynski saying:

0. We could be in a state of civilization, or reach a state, where only a very small minority of people living good healthy lives.

1. We could breed a society of domesticated people who are incapable of autonomy of self sufficiency, and like pets are incapable of functioning, or mentalling coping with individuality.

2. Surrogate Activities (AKA Hobbies) provide people with a sense of fulfillment and autonomy to substitute what they would naturally feel in primitive life.

I think all of these comments, together, seem to cover the ground that fellows post was about. Specifically Kaczynski seems to recognize that fulfillment in modern society is heterogenous. Hes not talking about a universal constant among people, but a general state of affairs. So thats why I asked if he even read the material.

God, its so easy to just dismiss material. Its like, literally no one really takes reading seriously. The field of scholarship is characterized by people just poorly understanding their predecessors, and propagating poor understandings faster than a real understanding could.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:22:52 2014 No.5099544 File: 91 KB, 650x975, cover-large.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5099532 >What made him go nuts? Lack of introspection. Brain parasite. One of those, or both.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:23:26 2014 No.5099546

>>5099523
>says nothing
This is an exaggeration. Aptitude in one subtest of intelligence correlates with aptitude in another subtest. We can attempt to isolate this "overall intelligence". We call it "g". It's true that someone could have a high verbal intelligence but low mathematical intelligence though. However, I don't think this describes Kaczynski.

>The story felt like it was written by a not particularly bright twelve years old.
Nobody is saying that people are born with the ability to write a good story or solve a super complex mathematical equation. But some are better at acquiring those skills. Kaczynski's manifesto makes for a pretty good read.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:24:11 2014 No.5099549 >>5099541 Ok I'll ignore you now.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:25:15 2014 No.5099555 >>5096323 Not exactly a hard conclusion to come to, we've had versions of it shoved down our throats for years. At least in the UK.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:25:21 2014 No.5099557

>>5099540

Right, because its just a universal law that bombs should never be mailed, and it couldnt possibly be that someone reasonably decided to do that.

It couldnt be that he did it for a reason you dont understand. It must be because he is evil, stupid, or another undesirable quality we all know is undesirable.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:26:09 2014 No.5099560

>>5099542
>God, its so easy to just dismiss material. Its like, literally no one really takes reading seriously. The field of scholarship is characterized by people just poorly understanding their predecessors, and propagating poor understandings faster than a real understanding could.
This has been happening all thread. I've pointed it out numerous times but people still feel the need to comment on material they haven't read.

Why? They're making stupid arguments that Kaczynki addresses.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:26:22 2014 No.5099562

>>5099510
>Yet still couldn't into logic.

No; every professional mathematician (which he was) is great at logic and deductive reasoning. If his claims are wrong, it's because he misunderstood language or was trying to push language to do something it can't do. Problems of language are the number one cause of stupid ideas.

>>5099523

Maybe his story was bad because he had spent virtually all his free time since the age of 14 on mathematics. Writing is a skill that must be developed through arduous practice. In fact, any person's first attempt at any intellectual discipline is going to be indistinguishable from a 12yo's. Had he focused more on literature from a young age, he might have produced works rivaling Pynchon - there's no telling.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:26:41 2014 No.5099565 >>5099542 >I think all of these comments, together, Are the rantings of a madman, of which nothing more can be said but, "wow, how did he get so messed up?" I wouldn't put these statements past Alex Jones, but a not a Ph.D. mathematician.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:28:02 2014 No.5099576 >>5099557 edgelord3000

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:28:31 2014 No.5099581

>>5099549

Theodore Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber, was among the twenty-two Harvard undergraduates used as a guinea pig in ethically questionable experiments conducted at Harvard by Henry Murray. In the experiment each student received a code name. Theodore John Kaczynski, who later became known as Unabomber, was given the code name "Lawful". Among other purposes, Murray's experiments were focused on measuring people's reaction under extreme stress. The unwitting undergraduates were submitted to what Murray himself called "vehement, sweeping and personally abusive" attacks. Assaults to their egos, cherished ideas and beliefs were the vehicle used to cause high levels of stress and distress to Murray's unwitting guinea pigs.[76]

> Chase, Alston (2003). Harvard and the Unabomber The Education of an American Terrorist. W. W. Norton & Company. pp. 18–19. ISBN 0393020029.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:28:48 2014 No.5099584
File: 174 KB, 500x635, 1326845741823.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5099460
So basically he has fallen deeper into insanity. Good to know.

>presents primitive life as violent, racist, sexist and laborious
>this is the ideal route to fulfilment and happiness
>and people on 4chan agree with him

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:29:17 2014 No.5099586 >>5099562 >Problems of language are the number one cause of stupid ideas. Interesting, with no language do we still think or have ideas?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:30:20 2014 No.5099594 >>5099460 >Another good work, is 'technological slavery' I've wanted to read it for awhile but I can't find it for free anywhere and I'm a poor ass.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:30:33 2014 No.5099596 >>5099581 Alex Jones, pls go.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 21:32:40 2014 No.5099606 >>5099486 Kaczynski lived in a cottage he partially built in the woods with no running water or electricity

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:33:37 2014 No.5099610

>>5096352
Well, I do understand the process behind these thoughts, but I'm having trouble understanding how he gets the conclusion that they hate success.

I think he's over exaggerating and generalizing about socialists, or leftists, too.

That being said, he had some keypoints I can understand.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:33:40 2014 No.5099611

>>5099546
>This is an exaggeration.

Not really because of how hard it is to translate a evalutation of aptitude (which is always rather questionable as a set of data) into actual accomplishement. You can't be really sure of how a mathematical prodigy will turn out when put in the actual environnment of research, and you're even less sure of how he will be able to write and do politics (for instance).

Evaluations of aptitudes in various domains are likely to correlate to some extent, but as stated in the paragraph above, that's not the core fo the problem.

>Kaczynski's manifesto makes for a pretty good read.

It clearly demonstrated a great evolution in the articulation of reasoning. But that in itself doesn't mean Kaczynski stands as an authority on writing or diagnosing societies. Which is precisely what I was getting at, more explicitly, that Kaczynski's alleged genius has nothing to do with how we should regard his social commentaries. As for the writing itself, it found it subpar and not standing up to the ambition of the work or the quality of the ideas exposed. But that last point is, after all, a matter of taste.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 21:34:14 2014 No.5099614 >>5099584 I know for the sake of argument that you will deny it, but most people are not "happy" in modern society

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:34:57 2014 No.5099619 >>5099606 So he was the Grinch. Instead of living peacefully in his little hermitage like a normal hermit, being one with nature and God, he needed to go out and fuck with the villagers...

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:35:22 2014 No.5099620

>>5099560

Yeah. I feel you literary comrade.

I would say that every field is like this, but it gets exemplified in discussions about Kaczynski. Its like the honest intelligensia are extinct or something.

Like, I remember reading Kaczynski in high school and just thinking to myself in a total panic that I was now fated to be a terrorist. It just seemed like premise, logic, conclusion to me, despite how hard to swallow inevitable suicide sounded.

I dont see any of my peers thinking like that. Its always like, premature abortions of replies to material they didnt want to consider. It must be part of the human condition I think. Maybe it keeps people functional in society.

If Im really honest, Ill admit that Kaczynski's writing isnt water tight. But you what? I never want to be totally honest about that, because it makes it that much easier for people to ignore really meaningful work.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:35:56 2014 No.5099624 >>5099614 shut up. fuckin' edgelord.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:36:07 2014 No.5099626 File: 16 KB, 400x300, salieri-mad-as-fuck.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5099619 >he needed to go out and fuck with the villagers... >grrr look at all those happy people!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:36:15 2014 No.5099627

>>5099610
It sounds like an expansion of Nietzsche's bits on the liberal mindset, with a bit too much of pop-psychological wil-guesses (which in a way is how a dumbing down of Nietzsche sounds like). On point, certainly. Rigorous, perhaps not as much as we'd like. New, not really.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:36:25 2014 No.5099628 >>5099594 Really? Just search 'technological slavery PDF'. I got it for free off the internet. If that doesnt work Ill give you my PDF copy.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:36:28 2014 No.5099631 File: 185 KB, 250x250, 1317076118028.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5099560 >Why? maybe its the whole mailbomb murderer thing that and >primitivism

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:37:52 2014 No.5099641

>>5099619

In 1978, he worked briefly with his father and brother at a foam-rubber factory,[23] where he was fired by his brother, David, for harassing a female supervisor he had previously dated who had refused him as a boyfriend for not 'sharing much in common'.

This definitely the root. He couldn't form a relationship with a female and lashed out at society by creating a narrative to support his views like an insane person does.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:38:13 2014 No.5099644 >>5099628 Jesus I feel dumb. I found it. I forgot to include "PDF" with the search so google only took me to articles that referenced the writing.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:38:41 2014 No.5099649

>>5099619

If you really want to know the history. He claimed he was pretty happy alone. He lived alone in the woods for like, at least a decade.

In an interview he said the turning point was when the wilderness he lived in was being encroached upon. He specifically mentioned high ways, lumber companies, and snow mobiles. He described an incident in which he hiked for three days to one of his favorite locations, to find it paved over.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:39:18 2014 No.5099655 >>5099620 >because it makes it that much easier for people to ignore really meaningful work. There is nothing meaningful there.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:40:48 2014 No.5099663 >>5099631 kek at that pic

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:41:30 2014 No.5099668 >>5099655 I dont know what to say. You already know I disagree.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:42:02 2014 No.5099670 >>5099614 >most >implying Even if that were true, primitivism does not sound any better. At all. In fact it sounds far more horrible and stressful.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:42:41 2014 No.5099671 >>5099649 >I would work on getting back at the system. Revenge. What a stupid motherfucker.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:43:15 2014 No.5099675 >>5099641 so he was an older Eliot Rodgers. Makes sense.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:45:03 2014 No.5099684

>>5098463
Working under a boss wouldn't derive the satisfaction of work, if you understand the pleasure of getting A to B done.

Is it me, or does it sound like Kaczynski can only get satisfaction from work he has done alone with his own autonomy ideals behind?

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:45:12 2014 No.5099685 >>5099641 kek, literally elliot rodgers tier

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:46:06 2014 No.5099689

>>5099670

Proponents of primitivism need to get out more.
I just got back from Liberia. They live a hellish primitive lifestyle there. They cut down trees at an astounding rate because everyone uses would burning energy. No flushing toilets. Waking up at 6 am to collect wood. Oh all the men sit around getting drunk on banana beer and it's the young girls tilling the fields. Go to a place a where people live a primitive lifestyle and you'll be thankful we have moved past that.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:46:38 2014 No.5099691

>>5099675

Elliot Rogers was lazy and spoiled at shit and generally came off as a shitty person.

Kaczynski actually seemed to work hard towards his interests. Can you guess how many years of training it took him to be able to sustain himself entirely off hunting and gathering? Kaczynski was the youngest math professor in the country, and Elliot Rogers struggled to complete introductory college courses.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:47:09 2014 No.5099695 >>5099675 Exactly. Even this quote sounds like him >I would work on getting back at the system. Revenge.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:48:29 2014 No.5099699 >>5099691 And still he was laid so low by a woman that he ran off into the woods like a little bitch

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:48:38 2014 No.5099700 >>5099691 We're comparing the similarities, not the differences.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:49:37 2014 No.5099701 >>5099641 Elliot Rodgers: Alpha stage >>5099691 Even if their characteristics are different, the root would still be him being denied his "prize", the girlfriend, just like Elliot Rodgers, and that would leave that as more the point of interest here.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:50:27 2014 No.5099706

>>5099684
>Is it me, or does it sound like Kaczynski can only get satisfaction from work he has done alone with his own autonomy ideals behind?

He actually adresses that in his Manifesto. His idea of autonomy is not completely stupid. I find it to be one of the most interesting point of this work, the only thing new, if there's one.

>>5099689
But isn't that more like post-colonial lifestyle in a poor country ? And you're talking from the point of view of someone who is used to enjoy a more comfortable lifestyle, and who was raised in a society which values comfort.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:51:23 2014 No.5099710 >>5099488 Troll.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:52:22 2014 No.5099714

>>5099706
>But isn't that more like post-colonial lifestyle in a poor country ? And you're talking from the point of view of someone who is used to enjoy a more comfortable lifestyle, and who was raised in a society which values comfort.

Stop being such an edgelord.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:54:58 2014 No.5099728

>>5099684

I cant represent Kaczynski, but he seemed to be referring a kind of 'trappedness' more so than freedom from authority.

Like, in modern society, you just cant escape. Society is entirely oppressive and you have no choice. In primitive society, even if there is some oppressive force in your life, maybe someone of a superior social standing, you have some shot of fighting back or running off.

I mentioned 'technological slavery' above. Kaczynski dedicates some of that collection of essays to contrasting primitive warfare with modern warfare. Primitive warfare, say between two indian tribes, was more like two groups of thugs, who had significant personal interest in fighting. For example, if they won the battle, they got rich and had lots of women to rape. If there was a battle plan, and you had a significant incentive to deviate from it for your own personal profit, you would do so at the expense to your peers. The incentive to deviate was permitted.

In modern warfare, the armies act as a single unit, as part of a plan. Acting in concert, is extremely effective in warfare. Deviation from the plan, is extremely costly to the individual because one's superiors have the power to punish you.

The power of authority that prevents you from acting alone, or individually, is granted by technology.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 21:55:20 2014 No.5099730 >>5099670 Wow, you are a barrel of confused ideology and presumptuous idiocy. No, humans are not happiest when they are "stress-free". In fact, stress is an integral part of happiness.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 21:56:42 2014 No.5099737 >>5099684 He was a mathmetician; most mathmeticians prefer being alone.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 21:57:49 2014 No.5099740 >>5099699 "Getting laid" isn't an accomplishment and spending your life with a women isn't transcendence. Relationships get boring after a few months

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:58:09 2014 No.5099742 >>5099728 Quick question: do you agree with him? Also, he's not completely right, because modern armies have an extend before they are allowed to act on their own accord. >>5099737 Figured so.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 21:58:51 2014 No.5099748 >>5099701 Not getting women was not the "root" of their problems. Mental illness is a more likely culprit

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 21:58:54 2014 No.5099750 >>5099706 >I am value comfort But youare be happier if primitive >No I like live Make live hard and then happy >No Yes

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:01:02 2014 No.5099759 >>5099748 Well yes, but it was the "victim" reason Elliot Rodger's used, which also seems to be the case with Kaczynski

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:02:02 2014 No.5099763

>>5099730
Stress is the primary cause of depression

I know what you're trying to say (can't appreciate the good without a little bad) but unfortunately you're a babbling retard and think that we need a constant torrent of bad shit happening to us all the time to be happy

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:02:53 2014 No.5099769

>>5099742

Ive got no comment with regards to agreeing with Kaczynski.

With regards to modern armies, I dont know how to reply to your comment. Obviously society doesnt have some weird absolute power that controls people like a puppets. I do think though, the point is illustrated that you really are the mercy of society. If you have some freedom its either by design for the benefit of society (a hobby), or the freedom simply isnt inhibiting society. None of it is really the granting of autonomy necessary for a healthy life (according to kaczynski).

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:03:13 2014 No.5099771 >>5099740 tell that to teddy k

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:03:14 2014 No.5099772 >>5099730 >Stress is an intergral part of happiness I think you're confusing accomplishment in work with stress.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:04:07 2014 No.5099775 >>5099714 What in what I said was edgy ? 4chan buzzwords are bad tools for reasoning, you should get rid of them.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:04:31 2014 No.5099777 File: 11 KB, 276x183, thorson.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5099730 >In fact, stress is an integral part of happiness. Elaborate? When I'm happy I'm not stressed, and vice versa.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:04:43 2014 No.5099778 >thread has been flooded with name-callers who leave 4 word responses and don't argue for anything Whelp, /b/ has arrived. We can all leave now.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:05:08 2014 No.5099779

>>5099763
No, don't interpret me. If you had a life where literally nothing happened, you would be absolutely fucking miserable. Sure the TYPE of event is relevant. You're just too simplistic in how you view psychology

>>5099759
People rationalize their motives, not the reverse. Don't dig too deep into the insane, they don't understand themselves.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:06:29 2014 No.5099782 >>5099772 I think you're thinking of some ill-defined colloquial definition for stress.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:07:45 2014 No.5099788 >>5099769 Why primitivism and not just anarchy? A primitive community still has rules and punishments

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:08:21 2014 No.5099793

>>5099769
Thank you for clearing it out.

I agree that we to some degree are, with your wording, at mercy of society.
However, I disagree with the idea that autonomy is necessary for a healthy life, because humans are a flock animal. We're always in groups (of course with exceptions, but the norm is living in groups/tribes/societies and always will do that), and this is where we thrive.
I think creativity and accomplishment of your work is necessary for a happy life though, as well as the social satisfaction you get from living among other people.

If you get my train of thought, sorry if I'm confusing, it's pretty late here.

>>5099782
Please elaborate. I'm not happy when I'm stressed, but I am happy when I am not stressed. I'd like to know more of your idea behind stress being a factor in happiness.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:09:38 2014 No.5099796 File: 25 KB, 293x473, 10220503_895705.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>5099779 Yes because that is the alternative to a life of constant toil and hardship Absolutely nothing happening That is correct Well done

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:09:42 2014 No.5099797

>>5099728
>you have some shot of fighting back or running off.
Exactly. As much as the hyper fertile soil, I think the fact that it was hard to leave places like Egypt or Mesopotamia because of surrounding deserts likely contributed to the raise of civilization in those places.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:12:31 2014 No.5099803

Are people really suggesting that humans evolved for hundreds or tens of thousands of years living a type of lifestyle that depresses or overly (keyword there) stress them?

You'd think a species with the tendency to become depressed (or otherwise mentally ill) and lose motivation would die out.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:12:52 2014 No.5099805

>>5099788

Kaczynski treats 'civilization' and 'technology' as synonymous. He mades the case for equating these terms and I think he is right.

Civilization depends technology. Civilization is just a broader general notion of what technology causes. You could 'tear down the system' or whatever to get anarchy, but you still have all the social forces that 'technologically' enslave people.

See thats the thing about what Kaczynski is describing. Its not like, one class of people oppressing another by means of technology. Technology and civilization seems to have its own agency, and oppresses all of us.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:13:54 2014 No.5099808 >general theory of "leftists" dropped

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:14:42 2014 No.5099813 >>5099808 Generalizations are in my experience usually shallow and ignorant.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:15:03 2014 No.5099817 >>5099808 He admits in his manifesto that "leftists" can be difficult to categorize, and he says that upon explanation you'll realize he's referring to a specific kind. Can you guys just leave this thread? The shitposting here is fucking crazy.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:15:15 2014 No.5099818

>>5099777
First off: you're confusing "happiness" the emotion with "happiness" the idea of living an ideal life. Second, the time you spend relaxing is not how you live an ideal life. The stress of writing a whole novel, of publishing, of climbing a mountain, marrying, getting a degree, pushing deadlines on creative works etcetera are what make your life ideal (if you value those things) is what will make you happy in the ideal. If I had ultimately the choice between a life of constant relaxation with no stress and one of constant stress, I would choose the latter in an instant.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:15:36 2014 No.5099819 >>5099803 Well you see insane people cannot into reason like you can.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:15:56 2014 No.5099821 >>5099818 To get your definition of happiness, you need the emotion happiness.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:16:39 2014 No.5099824 >>5099808 me too anon, me too. I bet the woman who turned him down was a leftist.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:17:17 2014 No.5099826 >>5099818 You're confusing stress with the fruit of work and creativity. Making a novel doesn't necessarily put you under stress, for that sake making anything doesn't necessarily put you under stress.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:18:01 2014 No.5099829

>>5099817
>He admits in his manifesto that "leftists" can be difficult to categorize, and he says that upon explanation you'll realize he's referring to a specific kind.

Probably the kind that work as a supervisor at rubber-foam plant that didn't want a relationship with him because they had nothing in common.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:18:45 2014 No.5099831 >>5096352 i'm going to frame this and put it above my bed

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:21:40 2014 No.5099838

>>5099793

>However, I disagree with the idea that autonomy is necessary for a healthy life, because humans are a flock animal. We're always in groups (of course with exceptions, but the norm is living in groups/tribes/societies and always will do that)

I think you are on to something with that idea.

From my reading, I have learned that there has been significant genetic change in people during the last 10,000 years to cope with society. We really arent the same species of hunter gathers we were 10,000 years ago.

Even if Kaczsynski is right about the oppression on people today, the genetic, and technologic shift in humanity sees inevitable. We are only in a transient stage in humanity thats only going to get more mentally, and genetically adapted towards living in society, regardless as to how oppressive Kaczsynski describes it..

Thats my attitude. Kaczynski always talked with a kind of moral absolutism, and might feel like my attitude is cowardly. As if one should fight against society no matter how impossible it is to win. He seemed to be attached to a primitive life to an extent that he couldnt put into words. I remember in an interview he said he was obviously an atheist, but developed a spiritual-like attachment to the wilderness he lived in.

Still though, saying as much as I am right now. I feel uncomfortable because I am giving people reasons not to undergo the scholarly journey of reading and considering Kaczynski. I dont know if I could ever truly feel like I disagree with Kaczynski.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:23:50 2014 No.5099847 >>5099805 So get rid of technology and civilization and have anarchy Why bother with communities at all if you want absolute autonomy

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:23:52 2014 No.5099848

>>5099818
It'd be interesting to ask ourselves to which extent those self-imposed stresses are a consequence of the values of our social environnment.

Quite a few thinkers, who reflected upon the conditions of living of their contemporaries, concluded that following what the majority deems the "happy life" or the "valuable endeavours" is an irrational decision that is not worth the trouble it entails. For instance Epicurus advised against getting married or having children because it stirs more unnecessary troubles than it brings satisfaction.

That's an argument you're free to disagree with, of course, but how many people consider the issue of marrying as a rational argument ? In many cases habits or the fear of being a "failure" by society's standards are enough.

Actually people getting married less and less and having less and less children in those of the most educated countries were social pressure to marry is the less significant (typically the US and Western European countries).

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:24:20 2014 No.5099851

>>5099797

> I think the fact that it was hard to leave places like Egypt or Mesopotamia because of surrounding deserts likely contributed to the raise of civilization in those places.

Thats an interesting idea.

Ive heard it pointed out that all the original civilizations developed by major rivers (the Nile, the Indus, Tigris, that chinese named river in china, the the most advanced native Americans were based around the mississippi). Thats another perspective in the environment providing a source of energy to permit the oppression of civiliztion.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:25:25 2014 No.5099858

>>5099838
I agree wholeheartedly anon.

I think the bottom line with Kaczsynski was that he was a misfit, a person that could not find comfort in society.

He might have had some problems connecting with other people emotionally, but that is just a guess, I could be wrong here.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:26:17 2014 No.5099860
File: 217 KB, 699x659, romanian girl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>5099818
>the time you spend relaxing is not how you live an ideal life. The stress of writing a whole novel, of publishing, of climbing a mountain, marrying, getting a degree, pushing deadlines on creative works etcetera are what make your life ideal

that ideal is stressful and unfullfilling, I am talking about real happiness, not the western rat race....'muh promotion!!'
"muh reputation"
"muh progeny"

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:27:45 2014 No.5099863 >>5099796 Not entirely.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:28:08 2014 No.5099868

>>5099847

You are talking with a recklessly low degree of realism.

I dont think Kaczynski was advocating some theoreticly perfect notion of autonomy. He wasnt some academic dreaming up ideas for a pay check.

'Autonomy' is a way of characterizing what is ideal about primitive life. And it certainly doesnt come at the cost of the naturally social lives people have.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:29:28 2014 No.5099871 >>5099821 Nope. >>5099826 What? You're not thinking through the whole process.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:30:27 2014 No.5099873

>>5099818
Again, constant stress is what causes depression and mental breakdown (not to mention other health problems).

A state of fulfilment can only arise once the cause of stress has been overcome. The odd road block here and there, such as those that might occur during the course of a normal social life, is more than enough stress for the average person.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:30:37 2014 No.5099875

>>5099858

>I think the bottom line with Kaczsynski was that he was a misfit

Could be. If he is, he is certainly one I, and I presume others, can sympathize with. I certainly have read up on him with a degree of interest.

I would worry though, that we can over focus on the man who wrote the manifesto. We should always discuss the content of his writing, and not the content of his character.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:31:09 2014 No.5099878

>>5099848
Well, I don't necessarily believe all decisions are "rational", I was commenting that people rationalize their motives and actions post hoc to paint a consistent view of themselves. I want children someday, that emotion can't be rational or irrational. What is rational or irrational is how I go about it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:31:51 2014 No.5099881 >>5099831 >having the ramblings of a convicted murderer framed above your bed do it

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:31:59 2014 No.5099884 >>5099871 No, you're clearly not understanding what stress actually means.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:33:01 2014 No.5099891 >>5099875 Well, the content of character also determines the work of literature they produce IMO. So I guess both are valid points to talk about.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:33:52 2014 No.5099898

>>5099848
Well, I don't necessarily believe all decisions are "rational", I was commenting that people rationalize their motives and actions post hoc to paint a consistent view of themselves. I want children someday, that emotion can't be rational or irrational. What is rational or irrational is how I go about it.

On top of that, I simply disagree with the idea of "happiness" in the ideal being predicated on relaxing and happiness. I spent a year of my life seeking minimal happiness, and I suffered from ennui, misery and depression. Now I'm almost always under constant stress and I've never been more at peace with my life. In fact, I'm working 40 hours total a week and I feel shitty that I'm not doing more.

People in general simply buy into these stupid myths about happiness. I would have hoped /lit/ could think about things more deeply, but they seem to be stuck on stupid, backwards ideas..

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:34:54 2014 No.5099902 >>5099860 I'm not talking about that either. Don't shoehorn me with retarded interpretations and inferences.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:34:59 2014 No.5099903

>>5099875
>We should always discuss the content of his writing, and not the content of his character.
Are you trying to say that half the people in this thread attacking Kaczynski and not thoroughly critiquing his ideas because they haven't actually read the manifesto are just trolls?

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:36:54 2014 No.5099916

>>5099873
I have never said once to be constantly stressed. Read my words carefully. I'm saying you can't live an ideal life without stress, not that you should experience 24/7 stress or be unhappy.

You're the one being hyperbolic by thinking that relaxation is the ideal

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:37:09 2014 No.5099917 >>5099868 But earlier you (or another anon) mentioned that the freedom to fuck others over and get away with it is important to his ideal primitive life Clearly he comes from a place of self-interest with little consideration for social cohesion

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:38:16 2014 No.5099922 >>5099884 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_(biology) Hur de hur, anon. I don't use words colloquially, I use them technically.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:39:02 2014 No.5099926

>>5099916
Are you dense? I replied to this notion, which specifically uses the phrase "constant stress":
>If I had ultimately the choice between a life of constant relaxation with no stress and one of constant stress, I would choose the latter in an instant.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:40:45 2014 No.5099936 >>5096378 Wow, you know a few days before Sandyhook there was a mass stabbing in a chink school of 24 children.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:41:12 2014 No.5099938

>>5099922
Your argument is that the fruit of work is important in a happy life. Then say so instead of trying to sound pretentious and use misleading words that don't really fit the context.
As you can see, I'm not the only one who has been confused by your apparent need for cryptic posting.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:41:33 2014 No.5099941

>>5099926
Are YOU retarded? I answered my view on a hypothetical dilemma. Of the two extremes, I stated what I would prefer. Obviously the true ideal is a condition of both.

Do you have any semblance of comprehension? How do you manage to read?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:42:18 2014 No.5099948

>>5099903

Isnt a troll someone who deliberately, and deceitfully makes someone else made for their own enjoyment?

No I dont think the people who are attacking Kaczynski in this thread are trolls. I think some of them are demonstrating poor form, and arent very good discussants. I cant really blame them for being like that though.

>>5099917

I dont know what post you are talking about, but it was plausibly me. Ive made a lot of posts in this thread.

>Clearly he comes from a place of self-interest with little consideration for social cohesion

Well I dont know about that. I think what we would describe as modern social conhesion, is forced onto us for the gains of a general society, which isnt acting in the interests of anyone.

I dont know about this self interest stuff. Without a doubt human beings have a violent capacity, and have every reason to fight with each other from time to time. Kaczsynski calls humans the most violent species of ape, and from what I have heard from psychology Stephen (steven?) Pinker, normal human beings have a great capacity for violence. I dont think that precludes our social capacity. It probably complements it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:42:22 2014 No.5099949 >>5099941 Not even him, but you're one dense ignorant fuck

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:43:35 2014 No.5099957 >>5099948 Yes, that is a troll. And I think most people attacking Kaczynski in here (maybe not all) are trolls.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:43:55 2014 No.5099959

>>5099898
Or, perhaps everybody finds different things enjoyable and values them differently

Some people in modern society like to have more free time for socialising and relaxation, others in modern society like to have a lot of problems to be working through

And look, modern society has accommodated them both! Yay!

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:43:55 2014 No.5099960

>>5099938
No. That's NOT what I said. I find the struggle of work the most peaceful place; the fruits make me feel the happiness emotion.

Again, your interpretation cleaves from my intention and you've effectively argued no sequitur. The storm is the calm.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:45:29 2014 No.5099968 >>5099949 >reinterprets my argument >doesn't comprehend the argument >talks shit I would love to see you read nietzsche. Actually, I wouldn't, but the thought is amusing

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:45:55 2014 No.5099973 >>5099960 Yeah, and the fruit of work is happiness, because of the work you put in it. You're confusing everyone, including yourself. Get down from your high horse, you might sit on it, but be damned if you don't suck at riding it.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:46:03 2014 No.5099974 >>5099941 My post was a response to your ridiculous hypothetical, moron.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:46:31 2014 No.5099976 >>5099959 >Or, perhaps everybody finds different things enjoyable and values them differently Or, perhaps not. I'm pretty sure everyone loves dopamine. I'm pretty sure everyone loves food.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:48:11 2014 No.5099980 >>5099976 Not everyone gets dopamine released by doing the same things. That's also part of why we have different tastes and limits. You truly are the biggest faggot in this very thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:48:53 2014 No.5099984 >>5099976 He's one of those "woah dude don't generalize man like we're all individuals hwoooaaaah" types. Just ignore himi.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:49:24 2014 No.5099986

>>5099973
No, you've confused yourself by not differentiating between "I'm happy" as an emotional state and "I'm happy" as a shortened version of the statement "everything about my life is in harmony". I see retards (you) confuse the two all of the time. You're doing it right now.

>>5099974
Why? You took a statement about my preference of stress and relaxation to a hyperbolic, autistic extreme. I wasn't saying I would prefer complete stress over ALL options, just one, to indicate my leaning towards preferring stress. Then you went full retard.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:51:05 2014 No.5099991 >>5099986 I AM differentiating between the two. And to get the "Utopia" life, you gotta have the emotion happiness.

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:51:51 2014 No.5100001

>>5099980
Sure, but lets not do the stupid thing that you're doing and claim that statistical abnormalities mean you can't speak to a huge plutocracy of the population. Please, "muh relativism" doesn't preclude me from analyzing your life.

>>5099984
Agreed. Radical individualists are the worst

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:53:09 2014 No.5100009 >>5100001 >Sure, but lets not do the stupid thing that you're doing and claim that statistical abnormalities I'm not the guy you responded to in the first place.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:53:20 2014 No.5100011 >>5099991 Yes, you also gotta have stress emotions. Both are needed, and that was the whole point. I despise American cultures use of "I'm happy" as a colloquialism for living an ideal life for this reason

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:54:45 2014 No.5100017

>>5100011
>Stress
No, you gotta work to make accomplishments to satisfy yourself. That doesn't necessarily mean stress.

I know what you're trying to say, and I agree with it, but fucks sake, just stop trying to be so damned cryptic.

Now I'll go to bed. Good night.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:54:50 2014 No.5100019

>>5099948
Not everybody is the same, we're not all violent and we're not all out for ourselves and those of us who actually care about the well-being of others would be at a severe disadvantage in the primitive life Kaczynski advocates. He speaks as though he knows what is best for our species but in reality he disregards the vast majority of us

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 22:57:27 2014 No.5100034 >>5100017 I disagree. If you're not stressed its not an accomplishment

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 22:58:53 2014 No.5100042 >>5099976 Are you honestly saying that you and I enjoy and value exactly the same things equally? What the actual FUCK is wrong with you? Christ, you're genuinely a troll, it's not just a cutesy trip. Fuck. You got me.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:00:25 2014 No.5100052

>>5100019

>Not everybody is the same

Sure. I dont disagree. I dont what difference that makes. If you cant make general claims about humanity because of variability then you cant say anything really.

I did use the word 'normal human being' for a reason. When Pinker talked about the human capacity for violence, he meant a large majority of human beings could demonstrate extreme violence if they needed too. We dont engage in regular violence, but that because modern nations have achieved stability, and has removed any reason to be violent.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:00:34 2014 No.5100054 >>5100042 He's saying that there are differences but not enough so that they're fucking relevant you retard. Shut the fuck up and get out of this thread. You people are so fucking stupid.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:01:52 2014 No.5100060

>>5099986
Even the hypothetical suggestion that constant stress is a life choice that is at all viable is fucking retarded.

Honestly, you want more work? You want more stress? Cut your fucking fingers off. The added benefit being that you save us from having to deal with your gibberish any longer.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 23:02:59 2014 No.5100066 >>5100042 Of course people are individuals, but individuals also generalize into rules pretty goddamn well. In fact, the best razor I've ever adopted is to always assume I'm a part of the majority until proven otherwise

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:03:29 2014 No.5100070 >>5100001 You're an introvert who posts on 4chan and you think you know shit about what people want in life. Lol

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:05:16 2014 No.5100079 >>5100052 And why would a more violent society be preferable?

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 23:06:09 2014 No.5100088

>>5100060
Really? Rather than that you would rather live in a world where you lay in bed, are fed the best tasting mush ever and then watch "smack my nuts" over and over?

The very fact that you're arguing so strong is evidence that you ENJOY the stress of this argument, if you can't see that then you're just blind

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:06:24 2014 No.5100091 >>5100054 The difference between your worldview and that of just about anybody else on this planet is huge you fucking mong

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:07:48 2014 No.5100096 >>5100088 >arguing on 4chins is stressful lol

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 23:08:49 2014 No.5100103 >>5100096 Yes, that would fall under the technical definition of stress.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:09:13 2014 No.5100108

>>5100079

I dont know what to say. Have you read the manifesto?

Its not like he thinks violence is good, and we should promote it. I think he is right in saying, that the avoidance is a weird modern value that really comes at odds with the natural human flow of things. Kaczynski appeals more to freedom, autonomy, and naturalness, despite how alien those things seem to people.

I emailed Pinker on this topic actually. I asked him if he thought that human beings actually have an unsatisfied taste for violence. He said he didnt think so. Humans have a mental capacity to be violent, but not a desire to be so. Kaczsynski seemed t emphasize human violence, so maybe he would disagree. It wouldnt be the first time he disagreed with academic psychologists and anthropologists.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:09:19 2014 No.5100109 >>5099576 So if you were transported back in time 1000 years when killing your enemies was ok, you run around screaming edgy all day?

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:14:38 2014 No.5100128

>>5100088
No because laying in bed all day eating mush is just your own arbitrary definition of a stress-free environment. How about reading a book, then going on a walk with my closest friends. Afterwards I might choose to paint or draw or write just for the pleasure of doing so. Maybe I'll listen to some music while I'm at it. Maybe the day after that I might decide to go visit a country I've never been to before, and spend the next few weeks travelling and enjoying something new.

This hypothetical life style versus one of "constant stress"? Yes fucking please.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:16:58 2014 No.5100139 >>5100128 Then you come post on 4chan because you're bored and depressed.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:19:18 2014 No.5100150 >>5100108 He said true primitive society is one of violence, racism, sexism etc. as someone mentioned earlier in the thread

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:21:01 2014 No.5100156 >>5100139 Is that why you post here, anon? You're depressed? We're here for you bud. Not all of us are fuck ups, we can help. :)

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:22:25 2014 No.5100168 >>5100150 Yep. That was me. I said that. Its true. Primitive life involves a lot more violence, sexism, racism, and work.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:22:26 2014 No.5100169

>>5100156
I knew you would respond with that.

Nobody satisfied with their lives would come to a toxic place like this. So I find it funny that you and others here are trying to argue how easy it is to find satisfaction in modern life when you're all a bunch of miserable fuck-ups.

Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:31:30 2014 No.5100202

>>5100156
I knew you would respond with that.

But yea, nobody happy and satisfied with their lives would post here (especially because of 4chan's shitty userbase). So it's funny there's a few of you in this thread arguing about how satisfying life in modern civilization can be when you're the epitome of what Kaczynski is talking about when he refers to the dissatisfied mentally ill.

>>	Anonymous Sat Jul 5 23:34:29 2014 No.5100217 >>5100169 >>5100202 Didn't think my post went through before. Oh well.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 23:40:15 2014 No.5100237 >>5100128 All of those things you listed demand stress to achieve. Well, maybe not all, but traveling? Ha.

>>	le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sat Jul 5 23:41:17 2014 No.5100239 >>5100169 Maybe you're right. I should not be posting on here I suppose

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 6 00:14:52 2014 No.5100341 >>5099898 Wanting children is a completely rational emotion or thought. That's what all living things want. To reproduce and generate viable offspring.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 6 00:21:26 2014 No.5100354 The kind of primitivism he advocated would've been just as bad as shit is today, probably worse It's in man's nature to dominate and kill one another

le trole faec ಠ_ಠ !Avm1fqtITk Sun Jul 6 00:35:54 2014 No.5100390

>>5100341
Well sure, in a colloquial sense it's rational. But I really mean that the urges we feel are often not things we think ourselves into; I don't want kids because I thought about it. I want kids because the idea makes me very happy. It doesn't have to be a rational goal in that way for me to fully embrace it

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 6 00:52:25 2014 No.5100427 File: 73 KB, 648x490, kaczynski.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Damn Kacyznski. Shitting on the people making personal attacks against him ITT.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 6 02:01:49 2014 No.5100615 File: 134 KB, 677x547, starvation.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Thread is dying regardless but heh.

Anonymous Sun Jul 6 03:04:32 2014 No.5100738

The people accusing Kaczynski of not seeing the value of family are full of shit. I just read a passage in which he refers to hunter-gatherers who work for the benefit of themselves or their tribe. Just because he disliked his own family doesn't mean he doesn't see the value in families in general.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 6 13:38:18 2014 No.5102288 unabumper

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 6 13:51:14 2014 No.5102317 File: 36 KB, 426x341, 1352565151194.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Just reading through his manifesto, this might be a life changing moment

Anonymous Sun Jul 6 14:00:43 2014 No.5102344

>>5096352
sounding suspiciously like social Darwinism. taking an embodied view of society we actually need each other biologically. being weak has it's positives, so does being strong. how would you know you were strong without the weak? it's a struggle as old as time, give it up.

>>	Anonymous Sun Jul 6 14:38:09 2014 No.5102455 >>5099829 Fuck off, freudian!

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/lit/ - Literature