/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.5089622]

Question: Is the society portrayed in cyberpunk novels like those of William Gibson and Philip K. Dick only realistically feasible in a libertarian/anarchist/anarcho-capitalist political landscape?

[Anonymous No.5089641]

It seems to me that they are, due to the often omnipotent role of large multinational corporations, the cities described would not be allowed to florish under a government that provides a standard of health & safety, let alone the body modifications and uncontrolled hacking using biomechanical means, syncing of brains and computers and such.

[Anonymous No.5089689]

>>5089641

though in the ideals of anarchocapitalism wouldn't consumers demand a higher level of satisfaction?

[Anonymous No.5089741]

>>5089689
Once the corporations grew to a sufficient size that entry of new competitors became unrealistic, and because government regulation would no longer impose minimum standards on goods and services, I don't know how consumer demand for higher satisfaction would practically manifest in a way that had leverage over the megacorporations.

[Anonymous No.5090056]

Is the book thst inspired Blade Runner good? I want to read some fiction that isn't fantasy

[Anonymous No.5090080]

>>5089741
Megacorporations wouldn't exist without government regulation in the first place

[Anonymous No.5090122]

>>5089622
It is only feasible in the landscape of the 80s.

[Anonymous No.5090210]

>>5090080
I don't think that's true. While not directly addressing your point, I think the existence of antitrust law strongly suggests that even if megacorporations wouldn't arise without government intervention in the early stages, at some point such intervention is no longer necessary and the government must shift from a supportive to a preventative role.

[Anonymous No.5090286]

>>5090056


neuromancer pretty much invented cyberpunk, so...

[Anonymous No.5090385]

h-here I go...
Neuromancer is dogshit and is outclassed by everything it was inspired by and everything that was inspired by it

[Anonymous No.5090393]

>>5090056
Yes.

[Anonymous No.5090395]

>>5090056
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

by Phillip K. Dick

[Anonymous No.5090400]

>>5090385
Not sure that opinion is even possible. Well done.

[Anonymous No.5090467]

>>5090385
What are its influences?

[Anonymous No.5090494]

>>5090056
Yeah, but it's a lot less gloomy then the movie

[Anonymous No.5090570]

>>5090286
I've read the premise and i already like it, i guess i'll start from there, thanks

[youtube.com/watch?v=DPeondgbfD(...) No.5090643]

>>5089622 Philip K. Dick is rather the surrealist cyberpunk (I'd call it psyberpunk).

I do think capitalism is going to taper/radicalize & further autonomize itself and develop a momentum towards anarcho-capitalism in time. And I'd consider that to bring society closer to what was depicted in cyberpunk dystopias (whose main essence includes "high tech, low life" and the instrumentalization & tailspin of human).
imo here's a realistic approach to the further mid-term future development:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGKVdW2EBzM

& youtube.com/watch?v=rHXpifo8mdw (note how that cancer spreads over from 1:40 on)
>>5090286 What? It's "Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep" not Neuromancer...
>>5090080 Mises-overdosed AnCap detected.

[Anonymous No.5091000]

>>5090643
That game looks amazing.

[Anonymous No.5091007]

>>5090494
What I missed in the movie was the explanation why animals are all robotic and so cherished.
>>5090056 The story is radically different, the book has a lot more depth and philosophical themes to it.

[Anonymous No.5091019]

>>5090080
That doesn't make any sense at all. Please elaborate.

[Anonymous No.5091030]

>>5090643
Where is that picture taken?

[Anonymous No.5091040]

>>5091019
Market forces and competition and freedoms :^)

[Anonymous No.5091046]

>>5091030
While we're on the topic; Where can I go to get this sort of urban photography, and where do I go to more near future theorising?

[Anonymous No.5091114]

>>5091046
I got mine through Google images, or if you mean actual physical places, large cities in east asia. Shanghai, Hong-Kong, Tokyo.

[Anonymous No.5091119]

>>5091114
Online. I'm too poor for Asian travel.

[Anonymous No.5091132]

>>5091030 Just reverse search it on google. It's Hong Kong with Kowloon City in the background (which is on OP's pic).
>>5091000 Richard Morgan who wrote the Kovacs series / Altered Carbon (and "Market Forces") wrote for it. It's quite underrated (sadly it was released the same time Deus Ex HR was released so most people who would have bought it rather got DE:HR), but I prefer the general ideas & concepts in it over the actual gameplay.
>>5091046
>where do I go to more near future theorising?
/r/Futurology is quite good sometimes. Was a mod there for a while.

[Anonymous No.5091197]

Does anyone know any more films with that futuristic noir feel of Blade Runner? Seriously love that film and its atmosphere. Wish they would make a sequel, or make one of Neuromancer.

[Anonymous No.5091206]

[Anonymous No.5091225]

>>5091197 Aren't they making a Neuromancer movie ? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1037220/
I don't know of a film that comes close to Blade Runner but these are some quite nice ones:
* Strange Days
* Minority Report
* Nirvana (1997)
* Sleep Dealer
* Ghost in the Shell 2
* Johnny Mnemonic
* Animatrix
* Wonderful Days, Sky Blue
* Babylon A.D.
* The 13th Floor

[Anonymous No.5091463]

With news like facebook actually influencing the emotions of users, i feel like the real world is getting more and more like these dystopian nightmares. unlike before we just dont have a clue what will happen 5 years from now. Are there new good cyberpunk writers? Like Gibson, Stephenson, Dick etc. used to be? Apart from Morgan i can't think of any

[Anonymous No.5093328]

>>5091463
Some parts of David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas were quite cyberpunk.

[Anonymous No.5093369]

>>5089622
I wish the slum shacks here are nicely stacked like that

[Anonymous No.5093372]

>>5089622
If you study China you'll see what you need to know about cyberpunk
>google: chinese sunrise billboard

[Anonymous No.5093394]

>>5091463
>tfw scifi authors have given up on writing about actual future stuff now and just wank about with steampunk and pulp nonsense

[Anonymous No.5094229]

>>5091463 Don't know many. But maybe Daniel Suarez and Charles Stross ?
There are some nice new cyberpunk derivates though (not that degenerate steampunk crap), like Postcyberpunk (I'd recommend "Down and Out in magic Kingdom" here) and Biopunk ("The Windup Girl").

Also some consider video games a plebian artform (probably at least partly rightfully so) but Cyberpunk is currently blooming there with video games like Deus Ex, Syndicate, Remember Me, Crysis 2 (partly Biopunk, also written by Morgan btw), ADRIFT, and the coming Cyberpunk 2077 (https://www.youtube.com/v/P99qJGrPNLs))

[Anonymous No.5094234]

>>5093372
Where do I start reading?

[Anonymous No.5095282]

bump

[Anonymous No.5095296]

>>5090056
Not the best by Dick but still good.

[Anonymous No.5095357]

>>5091463
Paolo Bacigalupi - The Wind-Up Girl. less cyber more agri-bio but very good. His collection of short stories was also good.

[Anonymous No.5095423]

>>5094234
Pls.

[Anonymous No.5095469]

To ask whether (in the case of Philip K. Dick) if a society portrayed in his fiction is feasible is to ignore the actual interesting themes Dick raises on the individual.
In other words, Dick's writing is not intrinsically political, nor are the the societies as they are mostly a reflection of the individual (himself)).

[Anonymous No.5095486]

>>5090400
It is certainly dated as fuck. I mean I had a blast reading it in the 90s, but if you read it today it comes off super gimmicky because of how technology actually progressed.

[Anonymous No.5095491]

>>5090643
>psyberpunk

Good word. I like it.

[Anonymous No.5095731]

>>5091463
There really aren't any new cyberpunk writers, which I find upsetting, considering the world we live in now is like proto-cyberpunk - most things are connected to the internet, governments are run by corporations, facebook as you said is influencing its users, our prosthetic are getting better and better, robot tech is advancing - but unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anyone on the frontier writing about this stuff anymore. As another anon said, it's all steampunk and space exploration/other planets.

If I had the skill, I'd be writing some cyberpunk from our perspective, from someone who's seen the future as Stephenson/Gibson/Dick envisioned it and is watching with baited breath to see what unfolds.

[Anonymous No.5095780]

>>5090080
Corporations wouldn't exist without Government regulation in the first place.

Who in fuck would innovate within a Capitalist system, when your R&D can be ripped off the second you go to market and your competitors can just reverse engineer your shit without having to dump millions or billions into development?

Also Capitalism tends to natural monopoly. Saying the "market" would halt the rise of Megacorporations is utterly idiotic and flies completely in the face of real world data (not that Ancaps actually give a flying fuck about reality or data)

[Anonymous No.5095850]

>>5095780
>Also Capitalism tends to natural monopoly. Saying the "market" would halt the rise of Megacorporations is utterly idiotic and flies completely in the face of real world data (not that Ancaps actually give a flying fuck about reality or data)

This. Megacorporations are a definite product of capitalism.

[Anonymous No.5096176]

>>5095780
>Who in fuck would innovate within a Capitalist system, when your R&D can be ripped off the second you go to market and your competitors can just reverse engineer your shit without having to dump millions or billions into development?
Welcome to China.
Competition isn't always about the "best" product but the most marketable. Not to say that there aren't at least some regulations in China (they must pay taxes)

[Anonymous No.5097040]

>>5091225
Will try some.

*Tactical Police Unit, Johnny To.
HK.
Amazing photography.
Shitty music tho.

[Anonymous No.5097158]

>>5091463
>>5095731

I recommend Daniel Suarez. He's work is less cyberpunk and more techno-thriller and it's not really a vision for the future but rather explores what is already possible today.

[Anonymous No.5097189]

>>5089622
That pic is the most depressing, awful thing I've seen in a while. Jesus, man.

[Anonymous No.5098586]

>>5089622
When will you whiteu piggus start living in human anthills?

[Anonymous No.5098897]

Gibsons future is very very realistic and basically represents a future where our system of ultra-capitalism becomes so big that it is unable to collapse and then becomes so intertwined with itself that it's impossible to change in any way.

Dick on the other side takes things that are common in our world and puts them to extremes.

[Anonymous No.5100056]

>>5097158
Any titles you'd specifically recommend?

[Anonymous No.5100110]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2139914/A-rare-insight-Kowloon-Walled-City.html
>Daily Mail
T-they have nice pictures.

[Anonymous No.5100157]

>>5089622
>5089622
>>5089689
>>5089741
>>5090080
>>5090643
>>5095780
>>5096176

I want to improve my understanding on economics, I know fuck all... i.e the stuff you're talking about now - corporations and their relationship with government how they both influence people, etc

where do I start

[Anonymous No.5100424]

>>5100157
Rothbard or Mises.

[Anonymous No.5100456]

>>5100424
>>5100157

Read whomever you please, but just know both Rothbard and Mises present a very skewed conception of economics that is dogmatic and anti-empirical.

Want a great general introduction to what a market system is? Read Charles Lindblom's The Market System.

>http://www.amazon.com/The-Market-System-What-Works/dp/0300093349

[Anonymous No.5100464]

>>5100157
Marx

[Anonymous No.5100466]

>>5089622
It's already happening now you dumb shit.

[Anonymous No.5100470]

>>5100424
check out pierre bourdieu
also, althusser

[Anonymous No.5100479]

>>5089622
It's perfectly feasible in whatever the fuck kind of capitalist society we have right now.

[Anonymous No.5100571]

China Miéville

[Anonymous No.5100857]

>>5100056
Daemon and its sequal FreedomTM. Admittedly I haven't read his other novels but as far as I know they are not reviewed as well as the two I mentioned.

[Anonymous No.5100880]

>>5100466
>you dumb shit.

How fresh off /b/ are you?
If this needless hostility was dropped, 4chan would be a much better place.

[Anonymous No.5101070]

>>5100157
David Graeber - Debt.

[Anonymous No.5101083]

>>5100880

shut the fuck up you faggot

he said it's happening and you ain't listening

what are you, deaf?

[Anonymous No.5101101]

>>5090210
Anti-trusts came about because completely new products were being produced that there was no competition over as no one else had attempted to market the resource. Oil is a good example of this. Given some more years, and indeed even at the time of the anti-trust laws, there were already companies competing with the "monopolies" in the market with similar prices. Anti-trust laws only allow for regulatory capture and thus state-driven monopolies can then take place.

[Anonymous No.5101364]

>>5089622
By why the Walled City?

[Anonymous No.5101383]

>>5089622
You better start believing in nightmare cyberpunk societys you living in it

[Anonymous No.5101426]

>>5089622
>tfw the walled city has been demolished

[Anonymous No.5101453]

>>5101426
I know that pain. They had multiple opium dens, brothels, and noodle bars, all accessible from one another within the city and without going down to ground level.

[Anonymous No.5101541]

>>5101453

>you will never roll out of bed in a brothel, hop down the block for noodles and then ease into your day with a bowl of opium

[Anonymous No.5101597]

>>5101541
Many, many times.

Girls: Though I seldom sleep at brothels. Not only would all my money be taken, I'd probably be killed in my sleep. There is a trick here that's done to white guys a lot - when you first go in, the girl hangs your clothes on a hanger by the door and talks you into a massage. As you lay down, another guy opens the door a crack, feels for your wallet in the clothes, and takes out roughly a third so you still have enough money to pay. Yeah, I'd never sleep there. Ive woken up many times in hotels with hookers. These are a lot better as receptions here usually asks for the ID of girls.

Noodles: There are like ten to twenty noodle bars and carts on every road.

Opium: Opiates of all varieties are everywhere. So is ice and pharms. The best thing is you can usually send the girls out for noodles and drugs. If you tell a girl that you are looking for drugs up front, that becomes her primary focus and you get laid for free if you get high with her.

English teacher in Vietnam, before you ask. Though similar in Cambodia, Thailand, and Southern Laos. Laos even more so for opium dens.

[Anonymous No.5101960]

Has anyone here read Daemon by Daniel Suarez?

[Anonymous No.5102119]

>>5100110
It sucks that that never really got anywhere. Could've been cool.

[Anonymous No.5102124]

>>5101960
I suggested it earlier in this thread. Currently reading and enjoying Daemon.

[Anonymous No.5102132]

>>5101383
DeusExINeverAskedForThis.jpg

[Anonymous No.5102178]

>>5101383

> you living in it
/thread.

People have to realise this.

[Stephanie Meyers !oZkUZWx95U No.5102388]

>>5089622

Uhh.

The base revelation of political philosophy (thanks Locke, Thucydides) is that all exists in a state of anarchy where the powerful do what they will and the weak bear what they must. This, until(if) the biological/social landscape changes wholly, and then in my opinion, allows an infinitely variable landscape in which, yes, some of the ideas Gibson/PKD/Stephenson/(I liked Deus Ex) concocted are totally feasible. I even started a novel on a similar premise.

I believe governments to be organizational franchises much like any commercial franchise. They're simply schemes of social/economic organization for members that allow one certain benefits at some cost. I'm uncertain as to how management will take place with so many chaotic entities interacting at will, but there you go, that's the insane inherent nature of anarchy in an infinitely variable world.

[Anonymous No.5102405]

>>5102388
You're not being paid by the word.

[Stephanie Meyers !oZkUZWx95U No.5102432]

>>5102405

Oh.

YEA I THINK OP COULD HAPPEN.

Is that more interesting?

[Anonymous No.5102465]

>>5102432
It's as interesting, and a lot easier to parse.
I haven't read Locke. I'm guessing at what his ideas were in this re-write.
>Locke said (and I agree with him) that we exist in a state of anarchy: the powerful do what they will and the weak do what they must. Bearing this in mind, short of a radical change in the biological or social situation, there's no reason that a 'cyberpunk' style anarcho-techo-capitalist society cannot come into existence
>I think that governments are simply schemes of organisation imposed on the aforementioned anarchy (and I am aware that this goes without saying and that it has nothing to do with OP's question)

[Stephanie Meyers !oZkUZWx95U No.5102488]

>>5102465

Fair enough.

Thucydides actually said "the standard of justice depends on the equality of power to compel and that in fact the strong do what they have the power to do and the weak accept what they have to accept."

You should read Locke. He's pretty damn good.

As to my second observation, I was simply giving a personal thought to extend the conversation. It's based on the aforementioned works.

Your editing... outside of some factual error... wasn't too bad. There's a little loss of meaning, but that's to be expected.

[Anonymous No.5102687]

>>5102178
I'd say we're living in a proto-cyberpunk world. We've got all the ingredients, or early forms thereof, but I' not sure we're there yet - either because our tech/society hasn't completely advanced yet or perhaps because there are people who can see where we're headed and so we haven't gotten there yet.