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/lit/ - Literature

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5028132 No.5028132 [Reply] [Original]

Personal preference; who's your favourite Greek hero?

- Achilles
- Herakles
- Theseus
- Perseus
- Odysseus
- Jason
- Ajax
- Bellerophon

>> No.5028139

>>5028132
>Not Diomedes
wut

>> No.5028155

>>5028139
Forgot about him. Let it be known that Diomedes is now part of the list.

>> No.5028159

Oedipus

>> No.5028161

Narcissus

>> No.5028164

Knowing that I'm probably going to get labeled as a pleb for this, I'm choosing Odysseus.

>> No.5028169

Paris

>> No.5028178

>>5028132
Odysseus.

I had this course on the Iliad and the teacher had this theory according to which both works, the Iliad and the Odyssey, had Odysseus as central character, and that every action happening in the Iliad can be traced back to Odysseus scheming in the back -- since this particular teacher had some great memory (he had a masters in astrophysics if I recall well), he'd know, for every plot element in the Iliad, how it connected back to Odysseus. Once you like understand how it all relates, you understand the Iliad is structured around 4 main plot elements -- a prophecy, manipulation, one's failure and the accomplishment of the prophecy, while the exact same structure appears in the Odyssey, and is structured around meta-narrative interactions with women (men telling tales to women in these works).

Thus yeah Odysseus

>> No.5028179

Diomedes all the way.

>fuck you Aphrodite
>fuck you Ares
>fuck everyone

>> No.5028180
File: 24 KB, 181x183, doomguyface.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5028180

Based Diomedes

>spearing Ares in his HUGE GUTS
>pimp slapping Aphrodite like it's nothing; doesn't need hos

>> No.5028196

>tfw no qtpi patroclus bf

>> No.5028197

>familiar with Greek mythology but never actually read the Odyssey in its entirely until recently
>went in thinking Odysseus was the archetypal planner/trickster who solves his problems with intelligence rather than brute force
>other than that one pun in the Cyclops scene, most of his "solutions" end up being either "everyone defers to his leadership because he's obviously the strongest and most handsome guy in the room" or having Athena save his ass because she loves him so much
>mfw Odysseus as portrayed in the Odyssey is actually a boring omnicompetent Mary Sue

wtf homer?

>> No.5028232

>>5028159
This. Alternately Antigone. Tragic heroes>

>> No.5029092

I like Achilles. He's a badass of the first order. I get goosebumps every time I read the part where he kills Hector:

"Fool, prate not to me about covenants. There can be no covenants between men and lions, wolves and lambs can never be of one mind, but hate each other out and out an through. Therefore there can be no understanding between you and me, nor may there be any covenants between us, till one or other shall fall”

>> No.5029094

>>5028132
Sisyphus

>> No.5029107

>>5029092
what about christian the lion who was raised by those two dudes and he remembered them after being in the wild for some time when they came to visit?

>> No.5029111
File: 1.79 MB, 352x199, 10.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5029111

>>5029094

>> No.5029113

cassandra of course

>> No.5029116

Atalanta

>> No.5029119

>>5029113
keep it in the women's studies department, bub

>> No.5029128

Zeno

>> No.5029133

Both Achilles and Diomedes

>> No.5029149
File: 52 KB, 419x249, 1383002330214.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5029149

>>5028179
Only because he had a goddess assuring him of victory. No way in hell he would have engaged gods otherwise.

>> No.5029157

>>5028132
Orpheus

>> No.5029164

>>5028197
Herakles is a big Mary Sue too. He is so Mary Sue he can't even die, his daddy just invites his to chill on Olympus with gods 5eva and gives him a goddess wife. All of my cringe. Achilles is a fag, and not even in a good sexy sense of the word. Jason makes some really poor choices and ends up having a fucked up life. I don't remember much about the others, I guess they were pretty bland for me. So this leaves me with Theseus.

>> No.5029176
File: 216 KB, 1500x1000, Bloom.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5029176

>>5029113
She was a total Aunt Tomasina, whining about how it was an awful sin for Clytemnestra to kill her husband. I can see why the latter whacked her.

>> No.5029178

>>5029113
>not Antigone
helot

>> No.5029179

Why didnt you include Hector and Aeneas?

>> No.5029180

>>5029176
>the latter
Clytemnestra, obviously. Not Agamemnon. Misconstrued that.

>> No.5029182

>>5029179
Priam plz. Those are Asians, not Greeks

>> No.5029203

>>5029176

>She was a total Aunt Tomasina

oh u. had a chuckle at this one.

>> No.5029206

>>5029176
why dont you tell us about metaphysics and religion again oh god

>> No.5029213

>>5029203
Drink deep from the cup of laughter, never sip like

>>5029206
this effeminate weirdo, bringing tunic-chasing philosophy into a based heroic thread

>> No.5029214

>>5029164
>Herakles is a big Mary Sue too.

Not really he isnt that unique in the sense that there a quite few demigods and children of Zeus, likewise outside of brute strength and endurance he inst that talented. This was even played for laughs a bit in the Odyssey where his strength was more a nuisance than an asset.

>he can't even die

But thats wrong he does die, and was mortally poisoned by a centaur tricking his (then) wife.

>> No.5029216

>>5029214
That was more than poison, shit was like napalm according to pseudo-Apollodorus, had Herakles writhing in fiery agony for three days before he keeled over

>> No.5029219

>>5029182
Im sure if there was a /pol/ in the days of the ancient greeks there would be discussions along such lines.

>> No.5029220
File: 86 KB, 652x931, atalanta knees peleus in the balls.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5029220

>>5029116
Been looking for an excuse to post this.

>> No.5029224

>>5029216
I remember having something to do with the blood of the hydra and a bloodied cloth. The point is though that poster is wrong about Herakles not dying and being a mary sue character.

>> No.5029233

>>5029220
There is nothing heroic in hitting below the belt.

>> No.5029246

>>5029224
>>5029214
>Through Zeus' apotheosis, Heracles rises to Olympus as he dies.

>> No.5029260

>>5028132
Oedipus

>> No.5029262

>>5029224
According to Herodotus, Herakles was initially a god, he didn't get demoted to hero-who-ultimate-became-a-god until later.

However, he is far from a Mary Sue unless your entire conception of character is "powers" in the comic books sense. Herakles had a massive issue with madness that caused him to do horrible things that would consume him with guilt. His god side was at odds with his mortal side, one ruled by whim and regarding humans like ants, the other deeply sensitive and susceptible to grief.

>> No.5029268

>>5029220
mah nigga

>>5029233
she won wrestling in funeral games, and beat Peleus among others.

>> No.5029276

>>5028132
I can't shrug my reverence for Odysseus. Dude had some amazing adventures.

>> No.5029279

>>5029219
>le happy merchant Phoenician divide-and-conquer face

>> No.5029286

>>5029276
In his own words. But every other story he tells in the Odyssey is overtly a lie, so it's hard to be sure....

>> No.5029304

>>5029286
He was directly favored by the gods and he made a bloodbath of those trying to take his woman. I don't see why it isn't possible for him to have done everything he stated in his story to Alcinous.

>> No.5029315

>>5029286
this

Odysseus just lies his way through life

that's why he so awesome.

>> No.5029318

>>5029304
I'm not saying he couldn't have, he was a mythical badass. I'm just saying the guy liked to lie. A lot. Big ''uns. He was the grandson of Autolycus ffs. And it is notable that instead of telling the story direct, Homer has Odysseus tell it.

I don't see why you can't go for either interpretation, but it is something to think about.

>> No.5029325

>best character
>not Argos


As they were speaking, a dog that had been lying asleep raised his head and pricked up his ears. This was Argos, whom Odysseus had bred before setting out for Troy, but he had never had any enjoyment from him. In the old days he used to be taken out by the young men when they went hunting wild goats, or deer, or hares, but now that his master was gone he was lying neglected on the heaps of mule and cow dung that lay in front of the stable doors till the men should come and draw it away to manure the great close; and he was full of fleas. As soon as he saw Odysseus standing there, he dropped his ears and wagged his tail, but he could not get close up to his master. When Odysseus saw the dog on the other side of the yard, dashed a tear from his eyes without Eumaeus seeing it, and said:

'Eumaeus, what a noble hound that is over yonder on the manure heap: his build is splendid; is he as fine a fellow as he looks, or is he only one of those dogs that come begging about a table, and are kept merely for show?'

'This dog,' answered Eumaeus, 'belonged to him who has died in a far country. If he were what he was when Odysseus left for Troy, he would soon show you what he could do. There was not a wild beast in the forest that could get away from him when he was once on its tracks. But now he has fallen on evil times, for his master is dead and gone, and the women take no care of him. Servants never do their work when their master's hand is no longer over them, for Zeus takes half the goodness out of a man when he makes a slave of him.'

So saying he entered the well-built mansion, and made straight for the riotous pretenders in the hall. But Argos passed into the darkness of death, now that he had fulfilled his destiny of faith and seen his master once more after twenty years.

>> No.5029354

>>5029325
>not knowing that Argos died of shame
He was having sex with the suitors like the rest of those harlot servants

>> No.5029359

>>5029354
you're a stupid faggot

>> No.5029378

>>5029359
Contain your stool

>> No.5029414

>>5029214
Yeah, like >>5029262 implies as well, the demigod side of Heracles was extremely important. Nowadays everyone goes "oh that guy had a divine father and a mortal father, that makes him a demigod," but in the actual conception of the term, of someone caught somewhere between a god and man and suffering the effects of it, only Heracles really fits into that. He was the only one who had it impact his nature to such an extent, the contrast between his human and divine portions.

He was also the only hero that we can say fairly certainly the Greeks saw as existing as a man, a hero and a god all at different stages of his existence. He was the only one we have good evidence for saying he achieved apotheosis; aside from him there's only really Asclepius, and theres not even literature or a narrative to support that he was deified, only engravings and sculptural elements that suggest it.

The importance and popularity of Heracles make him extremely important in terms of understanding how the Greeks saw their heroes. He was the best and worst of them at the same time.

>> No.5029423

>>5029414
>divine father and a mortal father

Apologies, I seemed to have implied that the Greeks bred with two fathers. It's getting too late here.

>> No.5029455

>>5028178
ok kolya

>> No.5029466

>>5029213
cassandra is the best philosophical hero there is. the fighting girls are whatever

>> No.5029482

>>5029466
I don't really see how she's a hero, her greatest accomplishment is being a pity party

>> No.5029521

Perseus, Orpheus, Theseus and Odysseus.

My absolute favorite classical hero would be Hector, though.

>> No.5029544

Ajax
He needs no god's help to be a badass.

>> No.5029556

>>5029318
Showtime network needs to gather up a Game Of Thrones sized budget and make a series based on the Odyssey. They could probably stretch it out for five seasons or more. And they could deviate from the epic all they want, because when someone pitches a fit about it they can say, "Well, Odysseus was lying, HERE'S what REALLY happened."

>> No.5029560

Medea

>> No.5029584

>>5029556
There was already a story like that, it's called the Penelopiad.

Anyway, considering Homer improvised his song and was supposed to be inspired by visions, it is interesting that his vision is of Odysseus telling a story and not the things actually happening.

A proper cinematic adaption wouldn't show either way. A proper adaption would be a long song by a chorus, with visual cinematic representation, and then singing shifting to a character when they speak: Odysseus's tales, all of them, would have his voice and then shift to visual representation, be they true or bullshit.

>> No.5029875

>>5029544
Ajax is bad ass, but he is a bit too proud for my taste. But what do you expect from Greek Heroes

>> No.5029893

>>5029556
They need to do that for the Iliad and the Aeneid as well. My opinion is that Aeneid would be the best of both worlds, since it is essentially the chronological reversal of the two stories and has some interesting character development.

>> No.5029914

>Not Stephen Daedalus

>> No.5029958

>>5029893
Aeneid is not the best of both worlds, it is an altogether different beast. It makes a LOT of reference to both works, but the ultimate aim of the Aeneid is to promote piety and patriotism (Aeneas, now there's a Mary Sue for ya, at least in the Aeneid), it has quite a different agenda; then there's the thing of it being composed in writing instead of dictated in improvised song, which shows. The Aeneid is a interesting work because it's written well (duh) and a few other factors, like the exploration of the Roman concept of the afterlife, the prominence of female characters, the flawless ending. Yet aside from superficial characteristics, such as meter and sequel subject matter, it cannot properly be compared to Homer.

>> No.5030000
File: 54 KB, 434x648, Mason - Lost Books of the Odyssey.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5030000

Recommending this fun little book to all you Homer fans.
Great thread.

>> No.5030865

You guys know that Homeros didnt exist right? Its just bits and bits of myths and legends remembered by different people, later compiled together.

Also, Oedipus' son is pretty cool. Seven Against Thebes.

>> No.5030916

Diomedes and Hector are pretty cool.

Odysseus was the greatest liar, and could create an entire life story at the drop of a hat.

>Ulysses was glad at finding himself, as Minerva (disguised as a herder) told him, in his own country, and he began to answer, but he did not speak the truth, and made up a lying story in the instinctive wiliness of his heart.

>"I heard of Ithaca," said he, "when I was in Crete beyond the seas, and now it seems I have reached it with all these treasures. I have left as much more behind me for my children, but am flying because I killed Orsilochus son of Idomeneus, the fleetest runner in Crete. I killed him because he wanted to rob me of the spoils I had got from Troy with so much trouble and danger both on the field of battle and by the waves of the weary sea; he said I had not served his father loyally at Troy as vassal, but had set myself up as an independent ruler, so I lay in wait for him and with one of my followers by the road side, and speared him as he was coming into town from the country. my It was a very dark night and nobody saw us; it was not known, therefore, that I had killed him, but as soon as I had done so I went to a ship and besought the owners, who were Phoenicians, to take me on board and set me in Pylos or in Elis where the Epeans rule, giving them as much spoil as satisfied them. They meant no guile, but the wind drove them off their course, and we sailed on till we came hither by night. It was all we could do to get inside the harbour, and none of us said a word about supper though we wanted it badly, but we all went on shore and lay down just as we were. I was very tired and fell asleep directly, so they took my goods out of the ship, and placed them beside me where I was lying upon the sand. Then they sailed away to Sidonia, and I was left here in great distress of mind."

>Such was his story, but Minerva smiled and caressed him with her hand. Then she took the form of a woman, fair, stately, and wise, "He must be indeed a shifty lying fellow," said she, "who could surpass you in all manner of craft even though you had a god for your antagonist. Dare-devil that you are, full of guile, unwearying in deceit, can you not drop your tricks and your instinctive falsehood, even now that you are in your own country again? We will say no more, however, about this, for we can both of us deceive upon occasion- you are the most accomplished counsellor and orator among all mankind, while I for diplomacy and subtlety have no equal among the gods.

Odysseus is a hero of pre-Christian morals, where lying was not frowned upon, but celebrated as a heroic attribute.

>> No.5030922

When I was younger (about 14) it used to be Ajax, for his great size and force. Now it is Odysseus, for his wisdom and curiosity.

>> No.5030934

>>5029354
He was a dog do you even fucking read jesus christ

>> No.5030941

>>5029958
ending is shit

aeneid is carmen impurum
t. virgil

>> No.5030948
File: 1.04 MB, 2000x1668, Iliad catalogue map.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5030948

>>5030865
Riiiight, that's why amphora art depicting the blinding of the cyclops started to appear all over the Mediterranean within a the span of a decade or two. That's why unified Greek culture and religion was virtually defined by Homer's depiction of the gods and the his list of Agamemnon camp in the catalogue. Sounds like you get your understanding of Homer from 19th Century theory.

>> No.5030954

>>5030941
Ending was the best part--and by that I mean the clean aspect of the ending--after the trip to the underworld.

>> No.5030963

>>5030954
you dont even know if its real. ivory g8 m8 i r8 8/8

>> No.5031216

Were the trojans a greek tribe? You know how there were dorians, ionians, etc, were they another tribe or were they apart?

>>5030948

Show me your spread pussy lips

>> No.5031230

>>5031216
They were Anatolians, like the Hittites

>> No.5031237

>>5031216

The Trojans are portrayed as kind of foreign and weird (actual Bronze Age inhabitants of Troy were Anatolian/Hittite) but they also speak Greek, wear Greek armor after the fashion of Homer's time rather than that of their "actual" time, worship Greek gods, and so on. They shouldn't be Greek from a historical point of view, but by Homer's time Anatolia was being colonized by Greeks and so when he thought of the people that lived in Anatolia he thought "kind of like Greeks".