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/lit/ - Literature

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5017356 No.5017356[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Give an argument as to why soma should not be consumed.

>> No.5017362

>>5017356
It doesn't exist.

>> No.5017367

It doesn't allow you to feel bad

>> No.5017374

If you consume soma, you are doing what the state wants you to do. If you do what the state wants you to do, you are not living for yourself. You are living as an animal. A pampered animal, which some may find desirable, but you are not living your own life. You speak state-sponsored words and consume state-endorsed drugs. Your life is not your own.

>> No.5017385

>>5017374
except that in BNW the state isn't surviving for its own sake, like in 1984, instead it is advancing humanity. consuming soma is for the good of everyone.

>> No.5017394 [DELETED] 
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5017394

>>5017356

>> No.5017402

>>5017385
The societies of BNW and 1984 are both happy as long as they obey the law. They function more efficiently because they do what they're told and know who to hate and what to love.

>> No.5017415

>>5017385
There's not much left of humanity to advance. Not the old humanity, anyway. It's become something new. Factory parts come to life, get brainwashed, take soma and fuck each other, and go to work in factories to sustain the production of more factory parts.

>>5017402
>both happy
Woa, no dude. 1984? It's the closest thing to hell on earth we can possibly get.

>> No.5017423

>tfw you will never have a soma vacation with a qt3.14 alpha female

>> No.5017429

>>5017415
>It's the closest thing to hell on earth we can possibly get.

Only from your perspective. You forget that Winston touched his toes.

>> No.5017439

>>5017415
1984 is only hell for the Party members. The proles get on pretty okay and don't know any better anyway.

>> No.5017470

>>5017415
>Not the old humanity, anyway. It's become something new
exactly, something new where the consumers of soma are benefiting greatly in terms of happiness. remember that fulfillment is a feeling, thus internal to whom experiences it. it makes no sense to talk about how it is bad from an external point of view when the issue is internal

>> No.5017473

>>5017439
The proles do live better lives in somewhat blissful ignorance, but they still get bombed to shit. They probably get conscripted into pointless wars anyway.

At the end of the day the only legally fun thing to do in that entire world is giving in to your blood lust and shooting Eurasians/Eastasians.

>> No.5017509

>>5017470
So where do we old worlders come in? Soma is designed to benefit the people of the World State as something of a last resort when everything else fails to make them happy. We don't really apply for soma binges because we don't even fit into the new system to begin with. Before the World State can take over, we need to go.

>> No.5017546

>>5017385
> instead it is advancing humanity

No, it isn't. The goal of society in BNW is only to preserve social stability, that's why they've isolated all of the actual intellectuals to tiny islands.

>> No.5017577

>>5017423
>implying a semi-epsilon n33t 4chan poster could ever score an alpha.

To OP: Because happiness is independent of external sources. Soma is just a crutch, and less satisfying at that.

>> No.5017622

>>5017374
This

>> No.5017625

>>5017362
You're playing around on a high tech soma machine right the fuck now.

>> No.5017633

>>5017374
I would probably agree with you IRL. But for for the sake of argument why don't we get right down to it and ask ourselves; What is really all that great about having "your own" life?

You might say that it's impossible to be happy if your life is not your own, but in the society Huxley is imagining, happiness can be faked.

>> No.5017637

>>5017625
stop pls

>> No.5017683

>yfw this book is a ritual like their other rituals where they inform the masses of what theyre going to do to them before they actually do it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iyHw1atN9A

>> No.5017691
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5017691

Brave New World basically says that there's a kind of "good struggle" that characterizes humanity. I always imagine some old guy talking about how he had to walk ten miles in the snow uphill or something. Soma is happiness without the actual killing Goliath shit that you usually need to achieve the happiness. I think Huxley would say that that the ideal society is one where everyone has to build character and find happiness by struggling. But not too much. Just a manageable, character-building amount that's the same for everyone.

On not-quite-the-other-side, this guy takes the completely unsentimental stance that society can be quantitatively judged on happiness, so the BNW society's got it right. (Keep in mind the only people that had issues with it were an outsider and some dude that they literally fucked up due to a freak accident [injecting him twice]).

I know that Harris has an entire section about BNW and why it's bad, but I think it's a huge cop-out basically. He pulls some Kwisatz Haderach bullshit like "everyone knows a happy society without soma would be better!" but I think he still ends up contradicting the entire basis of "avoid suffering," which is what BNW does.

Anyway it's a really cool topic and one I don't think I'll ever be sure about. I liked this:

>>5017415

>Factory parts come to life, get brainwashed, take soma and fuck each other, and go to work in factories to sustain the production of more factory parts.

I'd argue that we already are factory parts. Where's the line? We already have public schooling and television.

BNW's got to be one of my favorite books thematically (not in terms of the actual writing).

>> No.5017735

>>5017633
>>5017374

How much of your life is your own, now? You are born, you go through an entire state-endorsed brainwashing system, and at the end you will spend 33% of your life sleeping and 33% of your life maintaining the system.

"But I can spend the last 33% doing whatever I want!" Let's be real, most of you are going to watch people on HBO doing the stuff everyone does in BNW.

How is your life any more your own, now? It's not like they're going to tell you which Nikes to buy in the future, either.

>consume state-endorsed drugs

What is Xanax?

I'm being a little provocative on purpose, but my point is, Huxley's society already has a parallel. To me, the point of the book was, it already exists.

>> No.5017779
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5017779

>>5017637

>> No.5017811

>>5017691
>BNW's got to be one of my favorite books thematically (not in terms of the actual writing).

Please do tell me how? I read 1984 and I liked it (even if I threw it in a fit of rage the moment I finished it)
it explained itself fairly well all the way through, the prose was smooth and simple, while I felt that BNW had a redemption only at the end but it felt like the author had to make an exposition all at once to make up for it, why did he thought it was a good idea to have such a huge chunk of the book dedicated to savages, imagine if a 1/3 of 1984 was dedicated to the daily boring life of the Proles, there was not a defined protagonist and that guy in the end raving about the freedom to have all the pain in the world was getting so dumb that I symphatized with the head scientist, it also feels as if the author has understimated was happyness is, which is brief, all good things must come to an end, you get a promotion and that happyness will be brief, take the soma out and they might all end up bored to death if they are static as they seem, all in all it does not seem to justify well enough why and how things work out the way they do.

>> No.5017887

>>5017779
interesting book, but the author sounded too much like a paranoid andI dont understand why we should not care about what happens outside our city since it has an effect on everyone else.

>> No.5017898

>>5017691
BNW is really the logical conclusion of Sam Harris, whatever he says

>>5017691
>BNW's got to be one of my favorite books thematically (not in terms of the actual writing).
Have you read We?

>> No.5018193

>>5017779

Worth reading, but at times it borders on "old person bitching about television" territory. Many of the points are interesting.

It's also cool to compare news programs from ye olde times to news programs now. Today's news is on an entirely different level of sensationalism and stupidity. There's a short movie documentary thing that covers this but I can't remember the name.

>>5017898
>Have you read We?

No but I'm definitely going to now.

>> No.5018251

>>5017811

What I mean is, I think that the setting and premise not only raises nuanced ethical issues but is also extremely relevant to society today. I know that sounds corny, but just look at this thread. Like I said, I think the structure of the BNW society pretty much exists, and the most fascinating thing is, I'm not sure if it's even wrong. Of course the way BNW is written makes it seem repulsive on a "kids-these-days-don't-know-nothing-about-nothing" level. But isn't BNW what we're working towards? Isn't everyone happy? (Except for the accident and the outsider). That's what I mean by "thematic."

I didn't like 1984 as much. It's like, our institutions are spying on us and controlling us and brainwashing us and perpetuating themselves. Okay, but we knew that, and we've heard it a million times since then. It's an issue for sure, but BNW is more insidious and it's not as simple as "outside controlling agency = bad guy."

Also, in terms of writing and themes, I love the description of BNW society. It's clean, by some metric it's perfect, and yet still horribly wrong. By contrast in 1984 everything just kinda sucks.

Both important but 1984 gets so much more attention. If BNW is soma, 1984 is the guy's fucked up leg.

>> No.5018300

>>5018251
>I know that sounds corny
Not to me, I read the book because I wanted to read about well, the potential of these ideas, I dont really like the book but I enjoy very much the discourse it can generate which by itself I think is better than the book, I guess the next person chooses to transmit the best of what he has seen, it seems to me, similar to H.G. Wells book, the time machine, which disappointed me, it didnt show any probable future just a bleak apocalyse, but it created discourse and it was a similar ending to BNW, people overly indulging in edonism, but

it lacked somebody out of the system, like in BNW, like the guy who knew the "flaws" of it and could work to improve upon it, they cant have the players to manage the game, you need someone who is out of it with his mind.

I hope it was enough on topic, is 4 AM and I may have written something idiotic.

>> No.5018301

>>5017811

Also, your writing is whack, only part of what you described counts as thematic stuff...

I felt like a third of 1984 was about his stupid varicose veins and physical impotence. At least BNW had a non-conformist who was tall and powerful to go along with the stereotypical shitty helpless one. I guess 1984 gets a free pass on book burning / book banning BS since it's like a billion years old.

Something interesting censorship-related... T-mobile has an opt-out webguard filter now, meaning it censors stuff by default. That's frightening to me. If content restriction becomes the norm, that's gonna shape how you think in the long-term.

sorry for making an insulting and mostly pointless post but I already typed it so...

>> No.5018329

>>5018300

What's there to improve? Everyone does lots of drugs and has lots of sex. Where are the flaws? Should the citizens be sent to harpoon whales or something, to build character?

Where was the over-indulgence in the time machine? To me it was curiosity. And he wasn't indulging much. I don't think it was a "bleak apocalypse," exactly. It's so far in the future it seemed more like society as we know it being temporal. It was more as a perspective shift, curiosity, the frailty of humanity and civilization... that kind of thing. To me. I liked the book. To me the real societal commentary was the Mordocks or whatever the fuck. The underground dudes?

Your writing is fine btw, I was being an ass. I like the discourse as you put it. I agree that in the long term, the work is just a starting point to discuss stuff.

>> No.5018363

>>5018300

>similar ending to BNW, people overly indulging in [hedonism]

To clarify... what I got from it:

BNW's ending was a guy escaping from a society he felt repulsed by and didn't fit into.

Time Machine's ending was a guy who disappeared after fucking around with his passage through time. I think it was curiosity rather than pleasure... based on the descriptions of the distant future and inferences about his motivations. I mean, he went through a lot of bullshit. It wasn't fun. He was a scientist, he did it as an explorer.

>> No.5018364

>>5018301
>I felt like a third of 1984 was about his stupid varicose veins and physical impotence.

The way I see it, it make sense, because it tells us what kind of character he is and what 1984 conditions did to him and later on we see how he improves due to mood swings and I rather have a focus on the characters rather than just going from one to another, sometimes I felt like skipping pages, I probably would have enjoyed it more if without characters or plot the author explained his ideas.

>sorry for making an insulting
I have never been both apologized and given such a mild insult,heck I dont even feel insulted, I feel like a middle schooler trying to infiltrate an uni here.

>>5018329
>What's there to improve?
I guess I put it the wrong way, I am speaking about that one guy that explains it all, I cant remember the name or the role.

The mordock as a social commentary? Well I would see that as a the whole "without conflict we will grow lazy and stop being productive", and back again to BNW, is funyn to think what they say about hero, who would need a hero in a perfect world?

>> No.5018376

>>5017367
But that sounds good.

>> No.5018451

>>5018376
how do you know what's good if there is no bad?

>> No.5018465

Because human beings have an immortal soul and not all truth is in the senses, truth > pleasure.

>> No.5018468

>>5018451
Yep.

If you have "maximum pleasure" for a prolonged period, you will form a tolerance (if not physical, then at least psychological) and it will cease to be intense. Now if the pleasure is more spread out at intervals, it will continue to be strong; if you have pain and suffering in between, then the intervals can be much closer together

thus
life

>> No.5018472

What people don't know is that Huxley wanted the brave new world and was actively trying to bring it about.

>> No.5018475
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5018475

>>5017356

>> No.5018487

>>5018472
how?

>> No.5018491

>Give an argument as to why soma should not be consumed.

It's an egoistic waste of time, and leaves you completely defenseless to the outside world.

A fantastic drug for medical use to alleviate pain in the elderly and otherwise suffering.

>> No.5018531

is the entertainment industry the soma of our world?

>> No.5018539

>>5018531
One of them. Huxley would argue that most religions are as well (remember, "soma is Christianity without the tears", or something like that).

>> No.5018589

>>5018539
I dont remember anything from the two books, just the ending.

>> No.5019362

>>5018472
I think he just didn't know whether to be impressed or terrified by the world he predicted. He considered the benefits of eugenics for a while but all of that went straight out the window after WW2.

>> No.5019364

>>5018491
I like this one.

>> No.5019382

People will cry about some system or other stealing their individuality, such a crime! It's nonsense, though. The only thing is, in bringing about such a comatosed existence, it is the eradication of all that I currently know as beautiful; but then my appreciations are more soulful than most. In peace, you lose the beauty of successful struggle -- which is all we currently know -- that's it; but it is replaced by peace, so. I suppose you lose personal divinity, too, for you selfish solipsists out there.

>> No.5019391

>>5019382
People really do have a ridiculous love of individuality --definitely an existential retardation. It is absurd to say no to bliss.

>> No.5019398

>>5017362
why wasn't this /thread?

>> No.5019400

>>5019398
silly anon, no one takes anything butterfly says seriously.

>> No.5019443

>>5019400
I judge his/her posts on a case by case basis. He/She says sensible things and retarded things like everyone else on this board.

>> No.5019455

>>5019443
It's xir actually shitlord.

>> No.5019487

>>5017356
Because happiness is not the sole emotion that determines whether or not life is worth living. By keeping yourself complacent and satiated, you give up all of your dreams and aspirations for an empty bliss.

Whether in a good way or a bad way, the human tendency to abandon an unnatural perfection for natural pain is something that has been touched on throughout history. We're programmed to struggle in order to reach our goals, and it's only by painstakingly climbing the mountain and planting our flag that we can truly be satisfied with our lives. An unearned paradise is almost worse than hell.

>> No.5019531

>>5018329
> Should the citizens be sent to harpoon whales or something, to build character?
Whale meat is delicious.

I don't think there's any whales left tho.

>> No.5019542

It's just a drug. I personally wouldn't take it for recreational purposes, but I don't oppose it. I'm against it being used to the purposes of the State that were outlined in the book.

>> No.5019645

>>5018539
Christianity without tears isn't Christianity. Christianity and other religions involve faith and practice to bearing the unpleasantness of existence. It is response to the numinous, what invokes incredible fear and awe. Soma just gives you a good feeling with no effort.

Religion as thus, like art (as the pursuit of beauty) and science (as the pursuit of truth), has no place in the World State.

>> No.5021411
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5021411

>>5017374
This is the dumbest answer I could imagine that still meets the relative terms of being consistent enough to express a thought.

>> No.5021510

>>5018491
>It's an egoistic waste of time, and leaves you completely defenseless to the outside world.

Like Vidya

>> No.5021516

>>5021510
Not like video games, since video games as commonly perceived (consoles, computer games, phone games) do not incapacitate the person playing them physically or biologically.

>> No.5021522

shouldn't be consumed by whom?

In the context of the book I'd say the populace had every reason to consume it.

I'd venture that if one was a Shakespeare loving savage from a reservation soma would interfere with one ability to explore reality and the uninhabited ebb and flow of human passion and experience.

also I'd imagine heroin is cheaper

>> No.5021523

>>5021516
>video games as commonly perceived (consoles, computer games, phone games) do not incapacitate the person playing them physically or biologically

They do. You sit on your ass letting time go, extract yourself from reality and forget about the world

>> No.5021532

>>5021523
You can say that about anything, walking, reading, working, or whichever task that lets the mind drift.

Most importantly, your point does not apply to the drug soma, which actually knocks you out and puts you in an unresponsive state.

VIdeo games or any of the activities I listed does not have this effect.

>> No.5021533

Because that sort of society and lifestyle is so different to the ones humans live now, that it seems inhuman. What's different scares people.

>> No.5021559

A world where we have the freedom to be miserable is infinitely better than any imaginable utopia. Soma strips people of the freedom of emotion.

>> No.5021574

>>5021532
Working and reading are both (most of the times) active processes, they require a conscious effort, plus the former is generally something that one must do to survive in life and getting used to it cant be bad.Video games are cheap entertainment, you are a spectator and things are created and delivered to you. in this sense they are knocking you out, that you don't need to fight or put effort for the satisfaction you receive. Furthermore its fake because at the end you accomplished nothing. Not to mention that vidya are mostly solitary activities

>> No.5021590

>>5021574
Reading and work can also be "cheap entertainment", and it's futile to suggest that playing a video game is not an active process. On the contrary, playing a video game can easily require far more thinking and effort than for instance reading.

This voids your point.

Moreover, taking social relations in considerations, your example "reading" actually becomes the most solitary action.

I have to stress again that unlike soma, video games (or reading for that matter), does not have the physiological and biological effect of rendering you unconscious.

That is, unless you are bored to the point of falling asleep with either of them.

>> No.5021595

>>5017509
yeah, you sacrifice one generation, the total suffering is negligible in comparison to the benefit for future ones. besides, the question was why soma should not be consumed. the answer is that there is no reason why it shouldn't. soma in the novel was a last resort because there was already previous engineering and even then almost all people in the brave new world use it so if you are one of the few exceptions, an engineering anomaly you're just in bad luck. doesn't mean the overwhelming mayority should look out for your wellbeing sacrificing their own in the process

>> No.5021596

>>5021574
The only purpose of accomplishment is so that you can better deal with obstacles you face later in life, and you'll inevitably be a happier person. But in a world where there are no obstacles, there's no need for self-improvement. Everyone is already perfectly prepared to deal with life, and is guaranteed an enjoyable experience.

>> No.5021605

>>5021590
I agree that the physiological and psychological consequences are not the same, yet you can't ignore that video games are a ready to be consumed product. What thinking to they require? Solving puzzles? Grinding for fake rewards? You need initiative, you don't need invention, creativity. It's never "hard". Like a sport or a real life job.

>> No.5021617

>>5021605
Why is any of what you write true? You say real life job, sport, but video games HAVE become real life jobs and even sports.

Any sport is equally ready made, a set of rules for you to work within. Video games are the same thing in digital format - a set of rules for you to apply your intellect, creativity and motor skills.

Like books, sports etc, video games are also a "ready made product" for consumption.

>> No.5021622

>>5021596
>No obstacles.
It's because one doesn't chose to challenge himself or take things seriously enough. Lack of ambition or laziness. they're common also because the system doesn't stimulate people, as long as they're good consumers

>> No.5021627

>>5019443
>like everyone else on this board.
you don't know that, i will consider that part your retarded comment

>> No.5021629

>>5021622
I'm talking about A Brave New World, in which life is perfect and no one has hardships

>> No.5021643
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5021643

>this thread

>> No.5021666

>>5021617

>video games HAVE become real life jobs and even sports.

For a very small percentage of the population. They are entertainment by definition. Games. That they became "sports" its a sign of degeneracy IMO.

>a set of rules for you to apply your intellect, creativity and motor skills.

U wot m8? What intellect they require? What motor skills?
>Like books, sports etc, video games are also a "ready made product" for consumption.

Books are written to transfer knowledge, values, criticise society, explain human behavior.AND also entertaining. Sports make people fit and in good shape. At high levels they require complex motor and visuo spatial skills. Can't say the same of vidya

>> No.5021695

>>5021666
>For a very small percentage of the population
...and how is this relevant?

Like books, video games can also transfer knowledge, moral values and whatever the author wishes to convey, including criticism.

With vidya it is your fingers and hands, some times even feet when it comes to simulator games, that go under motor skill.

A video game such as Wii Fit or the various dancing games may also contribute to making you fit.

Unlike sports, where in it's entertainment form, watching others play such as the ongoing world cup, there is no active input required whatsoever for the consumer of the sport.

>> No.5021717

>>5021695
>>For a very small percentage of the population
>...and how is this relevant?

Read the rest of my sentence the you didn't include

>Like books, video games can also transfer knowledge, moral values and whatever the author wishes to convey, including criticism.

Except they don't because they aim is to sell to a broad public that wants muh gud grafix

>A video game such as Wii Fit or the various dancing games may also contribute to making you fit.

Pls go

>> No.5021726

>>5021666
this niqqa never seen a competitive quake match. brb timing 3-4 items at the same time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxRy09GgjCA

>> No.5021743

>>5021717
Not the anon you were arguing with.
Just like music, movies and books video games have the capability to transfer knowledge, moral value and so on. Just like with music, movies and books, this is usually not the case because more people are willing to spend money on simpler things that don't require you to think about them too much.
Also the claim that video games can't be hard is just false, especially since a lot of them are designed as competition where the game is as hard as the other player makes it for you.

>> No.5021907

Some of the world's greatest men are the largest failures at life.

>> No.5022364

>>5017811

I agree. I really despised John the savage, he just seems like such a stick in the mud. By comparison, the World State seemed like a perfect utopia, and the head scientist was really eloquent and convincing. All the protagonists were unlikeable and pathetic, and the antagonists were charismatic and cooly logical. I could really use some soma and a good orgy right now.

>> No.5022431

>>5017356
Because I don't want to.

/thread

>> No.5023806

Bump

>> No.5023815

“But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.”

“Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn't nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamour of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand.”

“I want to know what passion is. I want to feel something strongly.”

“All right then," said the savage defiantly, I'm claiming the right to be unhappy."
"Not to mention the right to grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat, the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen tomorrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakable pains of every kind."
There was a long silence.
"I claim them all," said the Savage at last.”

>> No.5023834

>>5017374
granted the state wants us (america) to accept a lot of bullshit but not everything in inherently evil. just because it's from the state doesn't make it evil. don't wear your seatbelts, folks. don't get your kids vaccinated. the guvment is injecting nanomachines to control yo children's minds.

>> No.5023850

>>5021574
>you are a spectator and things are created and delivered to you

This only applies to big title shit like COD. There are plenty of RPGs, Strategy games and puzzle games that require active thought and involvement.

>Furthermore its fake because at the end you accomplished nothing.

I had fun for an hour after a bad day at work and got my mind off of money and responsibilities for a little while, that is something.

I don't even play video games alone but the statements you're making are unfounded and reactionary.

>> No.5025197

Soma turns you into what Nietzsche called the "Last Men".

>> No.5025244

>>5017356
Fuck that, I don't just want one drug; I want all the drugs. Give me drug glands or give me death.

>> No.5025247

>>5025244
What's that from? I remember some science fiction that had drug glands.

>> No.5025266

>>5025247
Banks' Culture novels is what I was specifically referencing, although I'm sure you could find similar concepts in other science fiction.