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/lit/ - Literature

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5016218 No.5016218[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Why has day's left abandoned the value of empowering the working class?

>> No.5016238

>>5016218
If by modern left you mean post-marxists and empowering arming for a violent revolution or a vanguard led one, in Europe it is due to
> Prominence of Social Democrats over hardline communism
> Long history of failed uprisings (The Red Years, Finnish Civil war, Hungarian Civil War, German Revolution etc,)
> Disillusion in power politics and omelettes made by cracking eggs
> Medias feast on socialist regime atrocities

>> No.5016252

YOU ARE CONFLATING THE SOCIOPOLITICAL "LEFT", AND "COMMUNISM"; THEY ARE NOT EQUIVALENT; THE FORMER IS A SOCIOPOLITICAL POSITION, THE LATTER IS A SOCIOPOLITICAL SYSTEM.

>> No.5016284

Oh look another fake quote put in the mouth of someone famous to further some political cause they probably wouldn't have agreed with.

http://www.orwelltoday.com/readerriflequote.shtml

>> No.5016298

Have you seen today's working class?

>> No.5016306

The working classes only speak the language of superstition and tradition. It's not compatible with most of left-wing philosophy.

If you "empower" them with guns as your image implies, they'd probably be more useful to violent, reactionary causes and movements than typically pacifistic left-wing ones

>> No.5016308

>>5016284
I guess you meant to link to evidence that the quote was fake?

If so, you failed at that.

>> No.5016312

>>5016298
This.

Arm them and watch as they kill each other over religion, race, nationality but never over class.

>> No.5016325
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5016325

>>5016306
>The working classes only speak the language of superstition and tradition. It's not compatible with most of left-wing philosophy.

>> No.5016326

I used to be a communist until I realized that the working class of society has no inherent intellectual or moral superiority over any other class. What kind of virtue does a dumbass plumber have over a modern day aristocrat?

>> No.5016335

>>5016325
>le fedora meme
You know it's true. Even outside of religious matters the working class has little conception of things that don't immediately affect them. Heck, I love my parents and they're working class. Doesn't mean they aren't stupid bastards though.

>> No.5016361

>>5016326
>I used to be a communist until I realized that the working class of society has no inherent intellectual or moral superiority over any other class.

So you were a communist until you realized something that no communist has ever claimed or held as pivotal to his philosophy was not true?

>What kind of virtue does a dumbass plumber have over a modern day aristocrat?

What kind of virtue does a peasant have over a prince? What kind of virtue does a dumbass plumber have over a dictator and his party? The working classes were not considered potentially revolutionary due to their merits as individuals.

And working class in marxist terminology doesn't refer to blue-collar workers exclusively

>> No.5016375

>>5016326
they have the most unified spirit

regards marx

>> No.5016385

>>5016218
Cus all the want to do is 420. They're mostly drug addicts and hedonists.

Protesting for "social justice" is there way of psychologically justifying their pathetic and useless existence.

"I may be a stoner mcbong water, but at least I fight for the oppressed! At least I pay to go dig temporary wells in Kenya! At least I show support for gays and blacks! I'm so brave! *takes another toke*

>> No.5016435

>>5016326
Have you even read anything communist? The working class don't have a moral right to succeed the bourgeoisie. It's just inevitable that they will.

>> No.5016442

>>5016361
>So you were a communist until you realized something that no communist has ever claimed or held as pivotal to his philosophy was not true?

If anything, as a materialist, the communist would likely stipulate that the higher classes are intellectually superior.

>> No.5016476
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5016476

The issue should be how do we defoggotize the left

>> No.5016496

>>5016442
They wouldn't get away with so much shit if they weren't

>> No.5016517 [DELETED] 

>>5016218
Because if white proles began spouting left-wing ideals, they would become unfashionable.

>> No.5016528

>>5016218
It's not trendy anymore.

>> No.5016529

Because the working class wasn't Slave enough.

>> No.5016550
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5016550

>>5016476
Remove humanism to increase humanism

>> No.5016552

>>5016218
Leftists no longer care about the worker.

>> No.5016556

>>5016252
You are the new Hitchens

>> No.5016563

>>5016218
A rifle is only symbolism of death and destruction.
So yeah, pretty much democracy.

Granted, that is coming from a Communist.
Yes, Orwell was a Communist

>> No.5016566

>>5016335
the working class are unintelligent pawns who deserve to be herded like cattle

>> No.5016570

>>5016375
No, they do not.
>>5016435
lol hasn't worked yet
the communist dictators just capitalize on the new massive worki

>> No.5016571

>>5016563
>Yes, Orwell was a Communist

A secret hidden so deeply even Orwell didn't know.

>> No.5016579

>>5016571
I'm sorry, who did he support in Spain?
Why was he so brutally against Fascism?
Oh...yeah.
Communism

>> No.5016586

>>5016579
he fought with the anarchists retard


Did you even read his book?


Anyway, the myth of working class consciousness has been proven as such. There has never been a working class, only working classes. This will never change.

>> No.5016587

I've noticed that quite a lot of left-wing people seem to despise the working class, and many of them don't even attempt to conceal their hostility, including some self-described "Marxists".

>> No.5016592

>>5016570
>lol hasn't worked yet
Yes it has. 'Dictatorship of the proletariat' == government regulation and fiat currencies. Compared to 1860 we're already living in communist societies. (Of course since then the goalposts have moved, they're now waiting for post-scarcity society.)

>> No.5016597

>>5016552
I think we do care about the workers but we fucked up.

Marx himself criticized the german socialists' platform of increasing welfare and improving the average worker's conditions through the state at the expense of a truly anti-capitalist movement, i.e. they got too comfortable with their current situation because of it and now capitalism "works just fine" for them. It's not worth risking it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should throw the workers into horrible conditions based on the prospect of a bunch of left-wing college students leading them to radicalism and revolution, but I'm saying this will happen anyway and we have to wait

>> No.5016601

>>5016579
>>5016563
He was definitely a socialist but not a communist

>> No.5016609

>>5016587
If you think we're supposed to "love" them and share their values you haven't read any marxist in you life.

>> No.5016613

>>5016586
>There has never been a working class, only working classes.
Please elaborate. The working class as defined by communists is relative to capitalism.

>> No.5016632

>>5016579
>I'm sorry, who did he support in Spain?

The Republicans. He was almost liquidated by the Stalinist faction during the purges there and thereafter harboured an intense loathing of Stalinism in particular and totalitarianism generally.

I'm not, in absolute terms, an expert on Orwell, but I am relative to the general standards of the board and I can assure that anyone saying Orwell was a Communist either doesn't know Orwell, doesn't know Communism, or doesn't know either of them.

>> No.5016640

>>5016592
>'Dictatorship of the proletariat' == government regulation and fiat currencies.

Ignorant retard detected.

>> No.5016641

>>5016586
The anarchist were a small majority of COMMUNISTS

DO YOU EVEN READ FAGGOT

>> No.5016648

>>5016641
yeah, but he was with the anarchists and write about how the commies undermined them

>> No.5016788

>>5016632
>>5016641
>>5016648
>mfw I actually read Homage to Catalonia and already forgot all that shit

The mess left-wing terminology has become is the main reason they keep failling

>> No.5016808

>>5016609
Not "love" but at least... I don't know, treat with the same degree of respects they would other groups. If they displayed a similar level of hostility towards members of a different race, they would be denounced, so it just seems a bit incongruous to me, not to mention counterproductive.

Besides, I don't understand why you would be concerned with the living conditions of people you hate.

>> No.5016842

>>5016808
Being Marxist isn't about having a moral concern for the working class. Anyone who's a Marxist for moral reasons is going to have a very hard time of it.

>> No.5016859

>>5016842
Would you apply they same standards towards race?

>> No.5016873

>>5016218
Identity polotics.

>> No.5016890

>>5016808
>I don't understand why you would be concerned with the living conditions of people you hate.

inflated self importance and arrogance

>> No.5016892

>>5016306

lol that's how the left sees its precious 'working class'. no wonder you all moved on to trying to make everyone working class by destroying society.

>> No.5016893
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5016893

>empowering the slaves and servants

but that would be the opposite of advancing culture

>> No.5016894

>>5016859
Not him, but "race" is a completely irrelevant term in Marxist thinking.

>> No.5016906

Because the left is comfortable where they are, and don't seek real change. I use left in a very specific sense; the Democrats and so called 'liberals' of the United States (I know not of the political situation in Europe). To seek meaningful change in the system would be to disrupt the conveniences of their safe, privileged (I use this too in a very specific sense; privileged in that the majority of the outspoken left are by no means economically destitute, in fact many are much further well off than the 'workers' they claim to champion, they sit in Starbucks on tumblr and so on) and sheltered lives. This is why the majority have switched from their priorities from economic causes to "social" causes, like multiculturalism, racism, feminism, min wage, and so on, allowing them to take the moral high ground pushing for meager changes that are the equivalent of bandaging a cancerous tumour. Not only is class consciousness dead, there is no desire to revive it.

>> No.5016909

>>5016566

maybe so, but referring to them as pawns and cattle is not deserved, even if it is apt on some level

>> No.5016915

>>5016892
>lol that's how the left sees its precious 'working class'

Look at the arrogance of the stupid little /pol/tard. He acts like he has a "gotcha!" moment over the left but only ends up revealing his own ignorance about it.

>no wonder you all moved on to trying to make everyone working class by destroying society.
Epic!

>> No.5016919

>>5016566

Deserve's got nothing to do with it. The strong do as they can and the weak do as they must, same old same old.

>> No.5016927

>>5016919

i think you;d be pushing it to claim that you 'must' be disrespectful to the lower classes

>> No.5016930

>>5016808
>I don't understand why you would be concerned with the living conditions of people you hate
Social and cultural expression of the relations of productions primarily. And if you take Bourdieu's thoughts into account, you are able to get a better picture of today's society and its reproduction.

>> No.5016931

>>5016893
So what it comes down to is that you have no faith in knowledge, in education. That there's a "class" of people who are inherently inferior.
This has always been wrong.

>> No.5016941

>>5016927

The lower classes are the weak ones.

>> No.5016955

>>5016931

not him but even if you don't buy genetic predisposition there would still always be a class of less educated people in our current system, in fact if there wasn't we'd be pretty fucked

>> No.5016965

>>5016955

yeah god forbid everyone was as smart as you

>> No.5016978

>>5016955
>in fact if there wasn't we'd be pretty fucked
Why?

>> No.5016996

>>5016955
Most people have the brain capacity to be quite smart, but what about those, the autistic, that aren't? What would you do with them? Anything at all?

But you say "less educated". I know what we've got now, and it's purposely dumbing us all down. Proper education works and it can work for 99% of the population. Hell, even a highly educated 75% would be an amazing utopia-like world.

>> No.5017002

>>5016978

Not him, but the usual notion is that someone has to dig the ditches etc. I have no strong opinion, but my guess is that's where he's headed.

>> No.5017005

>>5016894
I understand what you're getting at here, but you're missing my point. Most modern leftists, whether Marxist or not, tend hold very moralistic attitudes, particularly when it comes to race, but yet the same sensitivity towards race isn't apply to class.This is a clear double standard. This may not necessarily be in conflict with Marxism ideology in itself, but it is in conflict with the views held by many modern leftists, include many who describe themselves as Marxists.

>> No.5017012
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5017012

>>5016931


i have a great deal of faith in knowledge and education.

the question is, would it behoove us to have have aristotle tutor chalcon the goat herder instead of alexander? certainly not.

>> No.5017018

>>5016996
>Most people have the brain capacity to be quite smart

Meh. If by that you mean they have the capacity to complete a university education in some vacuous subject like gender studies, then I suppose so. Doesn't make them smart in my eyes.

>> No.5017039

>>5017012
You don't seem to have any faith in knowledge and education.
It would behoove us to have an "aristotles" in every town, grocery, taylor shop, farm and household.
And it would be perfectly possible.

>> No.5017041

>>5017005
>I understand what you're getting at here, but you're missing my point. Most modern leftists, whether Marxist or not, tend hold very moralistic attitudes, particularly when it comes to race, but yet the same sensitivity towards race isn't apply to class.

I think that this is broadly true and what frustrates me about it is that it's exactly what shouldn't be the case if the concept of 'privilege' was properly applied. There is no way in hell that a black female from a wealthy family is less 'privileged' than a white guy raised below the poverty line.

Obviously, the idea of a specific calculus leads to farce, but the modern left has to so great an extent eschewed considerations of wealth (beyond uselessly broad 'We are the 99%' bollocksology) that I despair of anything useful emerging from it in my lifetime.

>> No.5017051

>>5017039


aristotles are not very common.

>> No.5017077

>>5017005
>particularly when it comes to race, but yet the same sensitivity towards race isn't apply to class
That reaction usually comes from the tendency of reactionary and racist groups to trace certain developments of society back to certain ethnic groups (Blacks, Jews, Hispanics, Roma, etc.) and their "scheming" instead of the logic of global capitalism and certain mechanism of the superstructure.

And you have to consider: a capitalist can always cease to be a capitalist, if the society simply doesn't achknowledge him and his wealth any longer. If you are part of an ethnic group that is being held responsible for God knows what, you have to way of escaping this.
Generally speaking:
Leftist boogeymen are always within a certain society and don't necessarily need to be removed, but only the structure of society needs to be altered for that.
Rightist boogeymen are always some kind of intruders (foreigners, foreign ideology (muh Frankfurt School), mentally/morally ill, who left society) that seek to taint "the good society" and need to be removed.

>> No.5017086

>>5017041
why don't you learn what the fuck privilege actually means

>> No.5017098

>>5017086

Maybe give me a potted summary of where I misunderstand.

>> No.5017101

>>5017051
I'm talking about the future. It is achievable.

>> No.5017118

>>5017077


im a rightist and my biggest boogeyman is pathological altruism, which is very memetically adaptive, which is why its my biggest boogeyman. it is very mighty, and the test of history has shown that its might trumps right at almost every turn, to our collective ruin (and not a universal collective of course).

>> No.5017125

>>5017101


let me know when that eugenic/engineering project gets rolling then.

>> No.5017138

>>5017118
>pathological altruism
What?

>> No.5017141

>>5017118

I would be so interested in hearing you elaborate on that.

>>5017125

Kind of a derail, but eugenic engineering is inevitable, actually. But it will almost certainly cement the prevailing class structure along genetic lines.

Maybe after a few generations, the upper classes will be 'clinically inbred' so to speak, and be forced to interbreed with the plebs again or face extinction from the common cold.

>> No.5017147

>>5017125
So you think it's a genetic thing.

>> No.5017172

>>5017138
http://www.amren.com/features/2012/07/pathological-altruism/

>> No.5017180

>>5017118
Pathological altruism would be indicative of constant apathy.

I don't think apathy has triumphed anything in history.

>> No.5017184

>>5017172
>As a long-time student of the most common and dangerous of all pathological altruisms—the willingness of whites to give up their homelands to non-whites
For fuck's sake...
The rest is just biologistic wankery...

>> No.5017191

>>5017184
And by the way it is EXACTLY what I described here >>5017077 .
>Rightist boogeymen are always some kind of intruders
>intruders
The only difference here is that "the whites" are dooming themselves for the other races.

>> No.5017197

>>5017184
Yeah mayn, fuck that biological shit, it's racist anyway

>> No.5017201

>>5017197
"That biological shit" has to step back when it comes to the totality of human interactions and politics, yes.

>> No.5017207
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5017207

>>5017184
>the most common and dangerous of all pathological altruisms—the willingness of whites to give up their homelands to non-whites

HAHAHA /pol/ please.

>> No.5017214

>>5017201
Nah. I don't enjoy the prospect of Europe being overrun with Africans and Arabs within the next 50 years. I'm sure even the most ardent Leftist would agree if the immigration flow were reversed.

>> No.5017230

>>5017214
>I'm sure even the most ardent Leftist would agree if the immigration flow were reversed.

Define 'reversed'. Reversed with sole respect to the direction of migration, or where the prevailing economic and political conditions are also reversed?

'Cause, like, yea to the first, obviously and nay to the second, also obviously. And I mean I'm not even an especially 'ardent' leftist.

>> No.5017232

>>5017207
brent spiner is the david bowie of '90s syndicated science-fiction television programs.

>> No.5017235

>>5017214
Even if you are right and they (See? Another intruder!) come in masses from the South and South-east towards Europe and even if this is a bad thing, you a) have to be a complete moron or have a completely twisted view on immigration towards Europe if you cannot see that the policy towards (poorer!) immigrants has turned more and more hostile since the 80s and 90s and b) have to be a complete moron to think that this has ANYTHING to do with biology.

>> No.5017249

>>5017230
Ah, the "prevailing economic and political conditions". In other words, Europe has to destroy itself because the masochists within our borders have convinced themselves that evul whitey is responsible for all the problems in the rest of the world. Safe to say, I don't see it that way.

>> No.5017261

>>5017235
>have to be a complete moron to think that this has ANYTHING to do with biology.

Why?

>> No.5017272

>>5017261
Why would it other than the obvious shit that derives from being a refugee driven by poverty and war?

>> No.5017274

>>5017235
Of course it has something to do with biology. Europeans are already a tiny minority when you look at the world's total population, and with the current fertility rates they are going to become an even smaller fraction. I don't wish to see the European ethnicities destroyed.

>> No.5017279
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5017279

>>5017274
>I don't wish to see the European ethnicities destroyed.
That's not how biology works...

>> No.5017282

>>5017249
>Ah,

Just some friendly advice - this does not make it seem like you are encountering a familiar notion you rightly despise. It makes it look like you want to portray yourself as encountering a familiar notion you rightly despise precisely because you are incapable of engaging with it on its merits. It's a bad habit that you should cure yourself of.

>In other words

In radically different words that misrepresent my opinion, precisely and solely because you are indeed entirely incapable of engaging my position on its merits.

I repeat: HAHAHA /pol/ please.

>> No.5017291

>>5017279
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. Are you saying importing tens of millions of other races won't dilute European genes into oblivion?

>> No.5017294

>>5017272
Because black nations/cities/communities are almost invariably destitute and violent everywhere in the world?

At this point biology is a much simpler explanation for black poverty than finding yet another way in which blacks have absolutely no agency and colonialism or capitalism or white privilege somehow punish them exclusively with such harshness.

>> No.5017302

>>5017282
Yet you don't even explain what you meant. I take that as a sign that I was right on the money.

>> No.5017303

>>5017291
they're saying the notion of a "european race" is fallacious, because europeans are the conglomerates of ethnic groups like nords, celts, and slavs

>> No.5017317

>>5017294
>black nations/cities/communities are almost invariably destitute and violent everywhere in the world
So like the Italians and Irish communities used to be in the US when they were at the fringe of the society and pisspoor?

>blacks have absolutely no agency
Oh man, this is some quality /pol/ posing...

>> No.5017318

>>5017303
So what? All of them would be gone.

>> No.5017325

>>5017302
>Yet you don't even explain what you meant.

I meant that if it were the case that individuals in Europe were moving to impoverished, war-torn third world states just for kicks, I'd think that was pretty stupid and wouldn't object to restrictions on the practice. Whereas, if Europe were impoverished and war-torn and these other nations were peaceful and prosperous, I'd regard restrictions on that movement in much the same way that I now regard attempts to impose them on immigration in the real world.

Which I would've thought a teensy bit obvious, but I suppose that's the way with /pol/.

>> No.5017326

>>5017318
Again, you have no idea how biology works (or how fast).
Or demographics.
Or politics.

>> No.5017340

>>5017317
>So like the Italians and Irish communities used to be in the US when they were at the fringe of the society and pisspoor?
You're talking about shitty neighborhoods in some eastern U.S. cities. I'm talking about every black nation on Earth.

>Oh man, this is some quality /pol/ posing...
How is it posing when every other race is able to overcome white privilege and bad history but blacks have remained in the gutter for decades with no signs of improving? To claim that this isn't biology implies that either blacks don't have the same agency other races have had to overcome this, or that there is a worldwide conspiracy against blacks exclusively and has been for centuries, everywhere in the world.

>> No.5017353

>>5017325
>I'd regard restrictions on that movement in much the same way that I now regard attempts to impose them on immigration in the real world.

You still haven't explained how you regard these restrictions, which is the crux of the issue. I suspect your opinion is completely in line with what I wrote above, which renders your whole tirade an utter waste of time.

>> No.5017372

>>5017326
Do you have anything to say other than "you're stupid and have no idea how things work"? As in actual substantial counter-arguments?

>> No.5017380

>>5017353
>You still haven't explained how you regard these restrictions

Unfavourably.

>>5017325
>Which I would've thought a teensy bit obvious, but I suppose that's the way with /pol/.

>> No.5017384

>>5017372
No I don't.

>> No.5017387

>>5017340
>I'm talking about every black nation on Earth
Yeah, because the history of African countries is so easy to follow and there aren't major economic interests from the dominant global players to keep things busy in Africa, so the prices for their resources will be low. Or the fact that in other parts, because of their markets being flooded by cheap, subsidised products from all over the world, their home market is a living ghost. And that from that economic and social instability wars and religious fanatics arise...
But yeah, "black" countries are stupid, because blacks just can't into economics like we whites, huh?

>> No.5017390

>>5017340
please use more weasel words

>> No.5017396

>>5017340
>with no signs of improving?

Did you stop following the news 10 years ago or something?

>> No.5017408

>>5017380
Exactly as I presumed when I wrote my original response. What a waste of time. You view these immigration restrictions unfavourably, so surely you must think Europeans have some sort of moral responsibility towards all of the various immigrants who want to come here. This despite all of the destruction they're causing, and all of the hatred and ill-will they have for the West in general. Only a masochist who wants to sacrifice himself would think that way; Jesus has taught you well.

>> No.5017410

>>5017387

No, dog, you don't get it. Cultures have a persistent identity and a life cycle, just like individual organisms. That has to be the case because it's easy to understand - nothing true is difficult to understand, that's vital to remember. Tricksy leftists and their ilk might pretend otherwise, but we know better.

>> No.5017412

>>5017408
>they

>> No.5017414

>>5017372
>>5017384
Samefagging, nice!
But to answer your question:
Biology doesn't give a flying fuck about certain genetic groups. The whole moralist evaluation comes from your side with an absurd claim of objectivity.
First, you have to show some kind of development that "European races" who have their genes partially even from as far as Asia will die out and other races will flourish in Europe. Then you would have to show that this is a lasting condition.
Then you would have to refute the facts that immigration of the poor has been made as hard as possible by European governments and that the influx of immigrants as low as it has ever been.

And the most fundamental thing that you have to prove is why being non-white is a bad thing.

>> No.5017420

>>5017410
>That has to be the case because it's easy to understand

wow are you a professor?

>> No.5017425

>>5017387
South America has much of the same pressures and has still managed, despite all of its problems, to avoid being hell on Earth. You bring up religious fanaticism, but even Muslim theocracies in the Middle East function better.

>But yeah, "black" countries are stupid, because blacks just can't into economics like we whites, huh?
Not just us whites, but Hispanics, Indians, Asians, pretty much everyone else is able to build communities that function reasonably well

>> No.5017426

>>5017408
>Exactly as I presumed when I wrote my original response.

No, quite different, actually. You said that I would oppose white migration to black countries. I offered a case where I would and a case where I wouldn't and invited you to clarify which case you'd had in mind. Your silence on that point indicated that I am, in your own words, 'right on the money'.

All entirely par for the course and, as I was saying, only to be expected from /pol/.

>> No.5017428

>>5017412
Not all of them, but a very substantial amount.

>> No.5017433

>>5017428
waiting for source

>> No.5017437

>>5017420

Yes, I'm actually the Senior Professor of Advanced Sarcasm Detection at LOL University. LOL U, as the football team chant goes.

>> No.5017442

>>5017425
Please use real-world examples and actually go into some sort of depth with your discussion. Every post you have made moves further and further from reality. You need to ground it with some sort of citation or something.

>> No.5017443

>>5016641
No. At the start of Spanish Civil War, Anarchists were the largest far-left organization by far - Spain was the promised land to anarchists, both appealing to rural south with Land Reform policies and Urban Northeast with Syndicalism.

Communists were a minor party in United Front, but since USSR was the only nation supplying Republicans and all of their support going to Communist Party, they grew in influence which allowed to them to curtail Anarchists and other factions of United Front which made Communists stronger but United Front arguably weaker.

>> No.5017445

>>5017410
Occam's razor exists for a reason, despite your devotion to complexity for complexity's sake as some kind of intellectual enlightenment.

>> No.5017446

>>5017410
The fuck are you talking about?
What does this have to do with anything about the economic and social state of African countries?

But seriously, that is just bullshit:
>Cultures have a persistent identity and a life cycle
No, they don't.
Culture is not a monolithic structure that is deep coded within the members of it.
It is a set of values, norms, codes etc. that is formative for its members, but at the same time can be formed by them as well.
It is not some kind of binary thing, you are either part of it or not for whatever reasons.
Why do you think cultures can develop or integrate certain aspects of other cultures?

>> No.5017450

>>5017445
>Occam's razor exists for a reason

You do not understand Occam's razor.

>> No.5017456

>>5017446
>No, they don't.

You need to take some of my classes in Advanced Sarcasm Detection, friend.

>> No.5017459

>>5017450
Yes I do, and I also have more to my posts than facile attempts to win by claiming that simple concepts are inscrutable to people who disagree with me.

>> No.5017464

>>5017425
> South America has much of the same pressures and has still managed, despite all of its problems, to avoid being hell on Earth.
South American countries have been independent since 1821, and before that they were managed as proper countries in which systems were build to create a prosperous nation instead of a mere exploitation system as was the case in African colonies that achieved independence mere fifty years ago.

>> No.5017467

>>5017456
May I invoke Poe's law for my defence, you honour?

>> No.5017468

>>5017459
>Yes I do

No, you don't. I know this because you have invoked it in this discussion, where it is entirely irrelevant.

>> No.5017472

>>5017414
>And the most fundamental thing that you have to prove is why being non-white is a bad thing.

Even if it weren't, I think it would be tragic for entire races and ethnicities which have existed for thousands of years to go extinct.
As to your other points, they're all just a matter of immigration rates and time scales.
As for your notion that the influx of immigrants is as low as it has ever been, that's just absurd. There were virtually no Arabs or Africans in Western Europe 500 years ago, nor were there 100 years ago, yet even today after policy has changed to be slightly more restrictive, millions of them are entering every year.

>> No.5017474

>>5017467

I'll allow it.

>> No.5017475

>>5017442
You need citations for my claim that first world nations have been meddling in the evonomic and political affairs of South American countries for decades?

>> No.5017477

>>5017468
Actually, you invoked it when you fell back on MUH TRICKY LEFTISTS sarcasm.

>> No.5017481

>>5017472
>There were virtually no Arabs or Africans in Western Europe 500 years ago

LOL

>> No.5017483

>>5017426
You're still arguing about the assumption I made which turned out to be correct. All fun and games, but how about you actually move on in the discussion?

>> No.5017484

>>5017477

See? I told you didn't understand it.

>> No.5017487

>>5017464
Yeah, and South Africa went from being a first world nation to having the most rapes per capita of any nation on Earth within a couple decades of the governing body going from white to black.

>> No.5017490

>>5017484
I agree that you told me, there's no argument there.

>> No.5017491

>>5017472
>entire races and ethnicities which have existed for thousands of years to go extinct
Again, there is simply no proof for this. And no the declining number of "white" births is no indication for a long-term trend of this.
As a side note: demographs lamented since the 1880s about the fall of the birthrate and predicted the extinction of their respective nation in about 50 years.

>immigration rates and time scales
Demographics are unreliable as hell for long term predictions.

>There were virtually no Arabs or Africans in Western Europe 500 years ago, nor were there 100 years ago
You have to be kidding me...

>> No.5017493

>>5017481
After the Spanish kicked the Moors out in the late 15th century, where were they? Let's hear it.

>> No.5017494

>>5017483
>You're still arguing about the assumption I made which turned out to be correct.

Or not, depending on whether you ever get around to clarifying if you meant as things are, or with the situations of the respective areas reversed along with the direction of migration. Which you won't do, because doing so would show that you were talking nonsense.

Once again: HAHAHA /pol/ please.

>> No.5017496

>>5017475
I need you to explain how they were at least the "same pressures" without the use of vague terminology for once. Or define what "functioning" is in your understanding so people can actually have a meaningful discussion with you.

>> No.5017502

>>5017490
>i now begin to suspect that i may in fact not understand occam's razor

Your suspicions are well founded. In fact, a good rule of thumb for you to follow would be: When a real person tells you that you don't understand something, assume they're correct.

>> No.5017504

>>5017487
1. South Africa is still first world.
2. Correlation =/= Causation.

>> No.5017531

>>5017494
How does it matter? I was presenting a common xenocentric view among European Leftists which relegates the guilt of all of the world's problems to European imperialism. It had nothing to do with your opinion.
So, let's say the situation were reversed; Europe is war-torn, poverty-stricken and full of religious fanatics and illiterates, and the Middle East is prosperous, yet is not responsible for Europe's situation. I would not claim that the Middle East should open its borders and let itself be flooded by European savages. You seem to be of the opposite opinion. I say you have some very collectivist and masochistic ideas about moral responsibility.

>> No.5017534

>>5017496
>I need you to explain how they were at least the "same pressures" without the use of vague terminology for once.
This isn't really possible since people don't go into specifics when blaming capitalism and first world white countries for Africa's problems. Both have had their economies heavily guided by first world interests. Both have had difficult politicians for the west assassinated by us directly or indirectly. Both are largely former European colonies. It depends on what you're saying is responsible for the unique problem of African poverty and violence to begin with.

>Or define what "functioning" is in your understanding so people can actually have a meaningful discussion with you.
Ok, I'll put it like this: there are white, Asian, South American, and Middle Eastern countries that actually produce skilled labor, and have economies that have a place for that skilled labor. Despite being poor, India, for instance, still manages to have something resembling a technology industry and place for people who know how to write programs. The only black countries with any kind of viable economy at all are entirely resource based. They can export oil or minerals, and that's about it.

>> No.5017545

>>5017531
>Europe is war-torn, poverty-stricken and full of religious fanatics and illiterates, and the Middle East is prosperous, yet is not responsible for Europe's situation. I would not claim that the Middle East should open its borders and let itself be flooded by European savages.
>Let's assume this badly thought out scenario without any historical, social and economic context, so I can prove my point.

>> No.5017547
File: 154 KB, 566x800, 1402455531485.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5017547

>>5017138


its an expression of certain tendencies in thinking. for example, groups with greater out-group preference than in-group preference tend to not continue existing as a group in a meaningful way, for obvious reasons. the problem is that in such cases your own people are the problem, 'foreign influence' would be a symptom of an underlying vulnerability (not that im implying hypothetical subversives [especially memetic/ideological ones] dont have any responsibility either). and thats not the only way such tendencies can become pathological, even in isolation.

>>5017141


on a semi-related note, lets consider a piece of music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2ibnzM1YI

a frank, edifying struggle against a distinguished foe is an easily conceptualized, easily recognizable trope. its something people can get behind, a context where they can define and practice their virtue.

the thing is, there is no 'mighty struggle' with universalism, it is just depressing. it is also something thats hardly imaginable, there is a cultural blindspot when it comes to successful deleterious memes of this type (duh). a good 2 minutes hate against 'haters' is easily arranged, and its precisely because of this that philosophies of 'love' have done far more damage heretofore. there is no distinct body with which you agree to disagree with, but the progressive spread of seductive ideology formenting progressive dysfunction.

'well who would argue against peace and plenty for all?', who indeed in this day and age, those who argued otherwise were gifted war and privation by the universalists, who were the decisive victors. this seeming contradiction really is not unusual, nor is it coincidental how the rise of universalism in the west prefaced the rise of near constant global warfare and tension. a *liberal* political philosophy is only defined through negation, what it is not. without insufficiently universalist bogeymen to set itself against, the clade will set upon itself in phariseeism, a progressive ratchet where members find themselves in a theological arms race, in constant danger of being outflanked by one who is holier than thou. and in such an environment, solipsistic, nominalistic memes have the definite advantage.

'isint that what we do naturally anywhere', perhaps, but not all holies are created equal. categorical imperatives of either universal 'hate' or 'love' (or indifference) would of course be wrong (and of course no being actually believes in such terms) as near all categorical imperatives tend to be (near all, since just all would be a categorical imperative). but different things are different, and different starting points can have different effects, will encompass more or less of the form of the good. and it is the ideologies that have kernels of righteousness that can do the most damage, where they might otherwise be disregarded out of hand.

>> No.5017550

>>5017545
This is the actual situation except with the geography reversed.

>> No.5017552

>>5017545
You're not addressing the argument, you're disregarding it, which is not a valid argument in itself.

>> No.5017554

>>5017550
With the same political, social and economic context, only reversed?

>> No.5017558

>>5017552
It is not disregarding it, but criticising it, because it lacks context.

>> No.5017559

>>5017554
Yes.

>> No.5017560

>>5017531
>I say you have some very collectivist and masochistic ideas about moral responsibility.

Yes, people like you are always saying stupid shit like that. There is little more beyond that than more HAHAHA /pol/ please.

But sure, I hereby abrogate and repudiate any direct "moral responsibility" for the situations presently obtaining in countries from which people are migrating to Europe. Leaving only the basic quality of human decency to justify my 'let them in' attitude. Poor me, with only the fundamental consideration of moral probity to back me up. Alackaday!

>> No.5017567

>>5017534
>This isn't really possible since people don't go into specifics when blaming capitalism and first world white countries for Africa's problems.
They actually do, even in this thread.

>> No.5017568

>>5017534
>since people don't go into specifics when blaming capitalism and first world white countries for Africa's problems.

Am I one of them? This is irrelevant.

You're still being extremely vague. I don't think you have enough insight into this topic in order to avoid making vague assertions. You're not even giving us any dates. Surely length of time would factor into how similar the pressures are, no? Dates are important to history discussion.

>http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2013/12/30-kenya-economy-kimenyi

See how much more insightful and informed this article is than your posts?

>> No.5017573

>>5017504
>2. Correlation =/= Causation.
It's certainly follows closely in line with what biological racists would attribute to be the reason for the persistent poverty, violence, and failure of black nations though.

>> No.5017579

>>5017573
I'm not sure you know what a "nation" is exactly but I would honestly be surprised if you can name even half of these "black nations" -- and yet you speak as though you're well-versed in African history?

>> No.5017584

>>5017560
>There is little more beyond that than more HAHAHA /pol/ please.

You're right, there's not much actual content to your responses except that.

>Leaving only the basic quality of human decency to justify my 'let them in' attitude. Poor me, with only the fundamental consideration of moral probity to back me up.

Here we go, the last refuge of the modern leftist and masochist, calling the opponent a terribly inhumane meanie. Too bad you're pulling this definition of "human decency" out of your very unqualified ass.
I think it's pretty humane and decent to preserve social stability in Europe and not destroy it with the self-inflicted problems of other parts of the globe. In the long run that would not be good for anyone.

>> No.5017585

>>5017573

His vague invocation of correlation != causation is weak and a bad argument, yes. But I'd say that the correlation of a mismanaged transition of power with the ethnicity of those mismanaging it does not indicate a causal connection between those two states of affairs, which is much stronger. Not going to pretend that SA's progress over the last 20 years or so has been super-good, but certainly not going to entertain the notion that it's because ohmigosh they're all NIGGERS, either. Ball's in your court on getting that claim taken seriously.

>> No.5017590

>>5017584
>calling the opponent a terribly inhumane meanie
You were calling him masochist and collectivist for whatever reasons, so you should be quiet as well.

>> No.5017594

>>5017560
>Leaving only the basic quality of human decency to justify my 'let them in' attitude. Poor me, with only the fundamental consideration of moral probity to back me up.
Yes, throwing the native working class under the bus to appease your sense of responsibility to people of other nations is very noble. Unemployment and depressed wages don't matter, there's "brown people in trouble!"™

>> No.5017595

>>5017504


a high r-value implies causation

>> No.5017596

>>5017590
>for whatever reasons

Except I gave the reasons if only you'd bothered to read our exchanges.

>> No.5017597

>>5017584
>In the long run that would not be good for anyone.

you mean like after the "migration period"?

>> No.5017598

>>5017573
>persistent poverty, violence, and failure
Yeah, because Europe and generally the West used to be a such a haven of peace and wealth for all....

>> No.5017600

>>5017596
>masochist
This has nothing to do with politics, but is a cheap means to discredite the other person as not being able to see the problem properly, because he craves for something bad.

>collectivist
Your entire argumentation is "my pack vs. your pack". It is collectivist in its own way, so shut up.

>> No.5017604

>>5017584
>the last refuge

No, the sole hangout and extra-good-fun social club of all morally conscious humans, actually.

See, you don't oppose immigration because you're a racist. You oppose immigration because you're an inhuman monster with no regard for your fellow man. I don't oppose restrictions on immigration because I subscribe to whatever Goldbergian strawman you enjoy hatewanking to on the internet - I oppose them because I enjoy sleeping well at night. You've misunderstood me all this time, as you've misunderstood everything ITT - as you have misunderstood and will misunderstand everything in your life. Le pauvre /pol/tard - endlessly raging against a machine that exists only in his mind. We can but pity him, the feckless /pol/tard. Shame, shame, shame. I blame the parents.

>> No.5017611

>>5017594
>Yes, throwing the native working class under the bus

Outside of specific - and quite small - cohorts, indigenous populations overwhelmingly benefit from immigration.

>> No.5017623

>>5017611


immigration is a tool of the owners of capital to undercut the native worker.

>> No.5017626

>>5017623

No, nativism is a tool of a segment of the political class to marshal popular support for their empowerment.

>> No.5017632

>>5017585
My argument is simply that no sovereign black nation has ever progressed even to the point of being a developing country. This is not a banal case of mismanagement: this is a what effectively was a nation like Australia or New Zealand becoming one of the most violent places in the world in a few decades. This is unimaginable to most people, I think.

>> No.5017639

>>5017611
Yes, and scabs benefit labor unions as well.

>> No.5017642

>>5017632
>This is not a banal case of mismanagement

I agree: no case of mismanagement of an entire nation can rightly be called 'banal'. Yet you do nothing to bolster your case here.

>> No.5017644

>>5017632
>List of sources:
>/pol/, my dad

>> No.5017646

>>5017626


inflation of the franchise is a far more reliable tool for creating support in the context of popular governance (such as through immigration), as the history of western 'conservatism' vs universalism has shown.

>> No.5017648

>>5017642
>I agree: no case of mismanagement of an entire nation can rightly be called 'banal'.
It happens often enough that one could very easily rightly use that word.

>> No.5017649

>>5017639
>yes, and poor analogies something something

Well toufuckinche.

>> No.5017655

>>5017644
Look up "South Africa rape" on google, it's no secret to anyone.

>> No.5017663

>>5017646
>inflation of the franchise is a far more reliable tool for creating support

Yes, that's why your sort has always lost and always will. Enjoy losing.

>> No.5017665

>>5017649
Actually, that's exactly what making sure the supply for labor always exceeds demand is doing. If you're not happy with your working conditions or benefits or income, there's always plenty of brown people willing to do it for less.

Immigrants are scabs on a national scale.

>> No.5017673

>>5017632
Do you have sources for the crime rate in Apartheid SA? Because I only find stuff mid 90s onwards.
You could almost think, there are pisspoor townships in SA, just like in Brazil, Venezuela or other poor parts of the world...

>> No.5017675

>>5017663


might doesnt make right.

you also didint (cant) actually refute the fact that importation of labour or products is indeed an end run around native workers by owners of capital.

>> No.5017692

>>5017534
>entirely resource based

This certainly isn't true of Nigeria, they have a rapidly expanding technology sector (among others), I imagine it isn't true of at least a couple of other majority black countries, just Nigeria's the only one I know for certain. Undermines your argument a bit aye?

>> No.5017693

>>5017665

This is - generally - true of unskilled labour, which hasn't been the backbone of Western economies for two generations. But I agree it sounds intuitive and, as I said, only tricksy leftists believe that something easy to understand could be false.

>> No.5017696

>>5017673
On second thought, cancel that!
I doubt they actually cared a statistic about rapes when it came to blacks.

>> No.5017701

>>5017675
>might doesnt make right.

WAAAAAAAAAHHHH

>you also didint (cant) actually refute the fact that importation of labour or products is indeed an end run around native workers

A:
>didint

B:>>5017693
>unskilled labour, which hasn't been the backbone of Western economies for two generations.

>> No.5017713

>>5016298
>>5016312
>disdain for the working class
Such are modern leftists

>> No.5017720

>>5017693
>This is - generally - true of unskilled labour, which hasn't been the backbone of Western economies for two generations.
It's true of any labor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

>> No.5017722

>>5017701


>WAAAAAAAAAHHHH

well i already knew that the ultima ratio is the only thing leftists have going for them in the end, but im glad atleast youre not pretending to have any sort of intellectual high ground.

>B

last i checked unemployment was still a thing, therefore, youre still wrong.

>> No.5017726

>>5017693
>only tricksy leftists believe that something easy to understand could be false
You have no idea what "tricksy leftists" think...

>> No.5017747

>>5017720
>It's true of any labor.

No.

>>5017722
>atleast youre not pretending to have any sort of intellectual high ground.

A:
>atleast

B: Funny how this line emerged right after "didint". Stop pretending to be properly human, you subliterate troglodyte.

>last i checked unemployment was still a thing

It sure is and if those who are unemployed were all unskilled workers, you might well have a point. But they're not and so - as ever - you don't: widespread unemployment inhibits immigration and in many cases leads to a reversal of it (here in Ireland, many Poles simply left for home after the construction bubble burst, for instance).

>>5017726

No YOU have no idea what tricksy leftists think.

>> No.5017748

>>5017747
>No.
I provided evidence. You just reminded me that you disagree with my position.

>> No.5017756

>>5017748
>I provided evidence.

You provided a youtube link, which - I'll be honest - I didn't and won't watch. If you can't provide any "evidence" outside of a youtube video, I'm gonna go ahead and say I win by default.

>> No.5017762

>>5017747


ever heard of h1b visas? the tech industry is real big on importing labour too, theres a glut of overqualified americans with expensive degrees out there. just face it, youre uninformed, you dont have a leg to stand on.

>> No.5017766

>>5017655
>no black nation has been successful because of south africa rape

i see

>> No.5017767

>>5017560
>But sure, I hereby abrogate and repudiate any direct "moral responsibility" for the situations presently obtaining in countries from which people are migrating to Europe. Leaving only the basic quality of human decency to justify my 'let them in' attitude. Poor me, with only the fundamental consideration of moral probity to back me up. Alackaday!

This is off-topic, but you're a really shitty writer.

>> No.5017772

>>5017692
They're not interested in real-world examples. Don't bother.

>> No.5017773

>>5017762
>ever heard of h1b visas?

No, please tell me all about them.

>theres a glut of overqualified americans with expensive degrees
>there's a glut of skilled workers with no jobs because of the state of the economy

Yeah, that's really telling me, son. But please, tell me to 'face it', again, I love that. It always always ALWAYS means "I have run out of bullshit and am about to get very mad" - I sense FUN in the near future, you know?

>> No.5017774

>>5016306
Have you ever read Invisible Man?

>> No.5017777

>>5017767
>I'm very mad right now and here's a generic insult I suspect people around here might respond to

Calamity! I am undone!

>> No.5017782

>>5017756
I don't care what you say, but I'm going to link to my youtube video again just so others can see what employers are doing to native skilled labor:

>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720

>> No.5017784

More concerned with belittling the top

>> No.5017787

>>5017782
>I don't care what you say

This isn't news, sweetie.

>> No.5017789

>>5017747
>No YOU have no idea what tricksy leftists think
"Tricksy leftist" Marx stressed the fact that a capitalist society needs an army of unemployed replacements in order to have something to hold over the workers' heads.

>> No.5017790

>>5017787
Neither is you refusing to watch the video.

>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720

>> No.5017801

>>5017789
>laid out his entire worldview in texts he published
>tricksy

Jesus, dog. And the Marxian proletariat consists entirely of unskilled labour. But hey, you sure THINK you've made a point, which must be awesome for your self-esteem at this stage in the game. Good job!

>> No.5017803

>>5016906

Thank you. Someone who understands.

This is why I can't stand most liberals despite that I consider myself as a liberal. Modern American liberals do not understand that for true progress that "we" as individuals will have to suffer inconveniences ourselves. They also don't realize that they are distracting and dividing people from the root issues.

>> No.5017807

>>5017790
>no, i cannot provide any evidence outside of a youtube video

Well god damn. I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you.

>> No.5017810

>>5017777
No, your writing is just stilted and pretentious.

I'm not the guy you're arguing with, by the way.

>> No.5017819

>>5017801
>But hey, you sure THINK you've made a point, which must be awesome for your self-esteem at this stage in the game. Good job
Do you think this is funny?
Jesus, trolls are really harder to distinguish with all the /pol/ posting...

>> No.5017824

>>5017807
I'm not going to bother with someone who refuses to engage with what evidence I provided while providing nothing themselves.

>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720

>> No.5017829

>>5017810

It's rhetoric, of course it's stilted. It makes frequent use of irony, of course it seems pretentious if you fail to grasp that.

But I'm sure you're a pure critic of prose, scanning the thread - as you scan all threads - and offering an honest critique without respect to the opinions of those singled out for praise or blame. Mmmhmm. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind on that score.

>> No.5017833

>>5017824
>I'm not going to bother

If only it were true.

>> No.5017834

>>5016385
That's not the working class you literal subhuman idiot.

>> No.5017838

>>5017833
I'm not replying to you for your sake.

>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720

>> No.5017840

>>5017604
>I oppose them because I enjoy sleeping well at night.

No, it's because you enjoy the sense of sanctimony and superiority that pretending like you care confers.

>> No.5017845

>>5017838

No, you're replying to me for the sake of the scores of other people who will also not bother to watch your youtube video.

>>5017840
>No, it's because

There's probably a feedback thread live right now, there usually is. Take your efforts there, please.

>> No.5017850

>>5017845
>No, you're replying to me for the sake of the scores of other people who will also not bother to watch your youtube video.
Possibly, but there are lots of people here who hopefully care about the working class.

>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720
>>5017720

>> No.5017853

>>5017604
But I'm sure white privilege, the corporate conspiracy, and the evil 1% plotting against the 99% is all totes legit shit, right?

>> No.5017855

>>5017850
>Possibly

>>5017207
>HAHAHA /pol/ please.

>>5017850
>care about the working class.

>>5017207
>HAHAHA /pol/ please.

>> No.5017864

>>5017855
Lefties and liberals can't actually listen to other opinions, they can only look toward the audience and ask "is this guy for real?!" in a condescending way in order to make sure nobody else is entertaining any thoughtcrime

See: John Stewart, Rachel Maddow, etc.

>> No.5017866

>>5017853
>But I'm sure strawman strawman strawman

This was me:

>>5017041
>what frustrates me about it is that it's exactly what shouldn't be the case if the concept of 'privilege' was properly applied. There is no way in hell that a black female from a wealthy family is less 'privileged' than a white guy raised below the poverty line.

There's probably somewhere you could go where you could argue with the living cartoons you clearly want to engage with. This specific thread is not such a place, I'm afraid.

>> No.5017869

>>5017864
>Lefties and liberals can't actually listen to other opinions

>>5017207
>HAHAHA /pol/ please.

>> No.5017874

>>5017410
Why do you honestly care about the preservation of your culture? You're not going to be around for its destruction, so I really just cannot see why you get so worked up about it.

>> No.5017879

>>5017773


>No

of course you didint.

>Yeah, that's really telling me

you responded to the same post as if it were two distinct ones in a conversation, your tendency towards fantastic assumption is indicative of conditional solipsism, also known as autism.

heres your sauce by the way, friends dont let friends be low information proles.

>http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1basereviewsh1bcapstatistics/ref/1698/

>As you can see, the 2012 cap was reached very, very quickly, and experts anticipate that the cap will be filled at a similar speed this year as well

almost as if there are a great deal of positions that could be filled by native workers but are not...

http://takimag.com/article/over_the_hill_at_35

>The lady’s husband, a semiconductor engineer, has been unemployed for three years, yet people in his field are being brought in on H-1Bs. She doesn’t think this makes any sense.

just a coincidence im sure.

>> No.5017882

>>5017874
>Why do you honestly care about the preservation of your culture?

>>5017456
>You need to take some of my classes in Advanced Sarcasm Detection, friend.

>> No.5017885

>>5017866
If I'm not allowed to bring up privilege-checkers and OWStards and stain your side with their idiocy, you're not aloud to bring up newfags from /pol/ and stain my side with theirs.

But understand, m8, both horrid groups are far too large for either of us to just pretend they don't exist.

>> No.5017886

>>5017487
Yeah, and under white rule they literally shot blacks dead in the streets. What's your point?

>> No.5017891

>>5017886
Well one thing to deduce is that you can either be on top, or on the bottom.

>> No.5017909

>>5017879
>just a coincidence im sure.

Yeah, no-one hires oldies. But that doesn't even qualify for 'coincidence' status.

Incidentally, I asked you to tell me all about H1B visas because they are non-immigrant visas. I was hoping you'd find that out on your quest to find something to back up the keywords you've learned by rote from your instructors at /pol/ - always better to let people think the new information was their independent discovery and so forth. Shame.

>>5017885
>you're not aloud

I am defiantly aloud. And there is no ranking of /pol/tards: a /pol/tard is a /pol/tard is a /pol/tard. You are a /pol/tard and hence are no better or worse than the newest and most wet-behind-the-ears /pol/tard you could dream of. You will never be better than that. You cannot be better than that. You will live your entire life and die being no better than that. There is no escape.

>> No.5017919
File: 25 KB, 524x301, 2Fig1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5017919

>>5017886


>propaganda

now they literally have more blacks being shot on the streets by other blacks, progress!

>> No.5017925

>>5017909
>I am defiantly aloud. And there is no ranking of /pol/tards: a /pol/tard is a /pol/tard is a /pol/tard blah blah...
You're not very open-minded are you?

>> No.5017930

>>5017909


your critical thinking skills are terminally deficient (compromised by deleterious memes?.

it is not merely younger workers being hired, its young workers who are BROUGHT IN from SOMEWHERE ELSE.

>> No.5017931

>>5017909
You argue like a nigger. You can't debate an idea at all, everything is just a thinly veiled pejorative or ad-hominem.

>> No.5017935

>>5017864
The Emperors New Clothes was a book they read us in pre-school, but you must have missed it. Anyway, it illustrates that people in power can do wrong things that are entirely self-evident, and the majority of people are bootlicking toadies who will actively go along with it. There's no way to force a blind person to see, so the only appropriate action is to treat it as farce, hence the derision that you've observed. I get that you don't like it, and I'll agree that it's kinda annoying, but it's more mature than the shouting-down and IRL flamewars that the right pundits seem to think is acceptable.

>> No.5017942

>>5017909
>You will never be better than that. You cannot be better than that. You will live your entire life and die being no better than that.

biological determinism is grave heresy fellow leftonian, make a confession to your local priestfessor as soon as possible to cleanse your sin.

>> No.5017944

>>5017925

I'm exactly as open-minded as the nature of the world requires. I know /pol/ requires a distinct species of credulous idiot on which to work its special magic, but I regret to report I'm not your man.

>>5017930
>BROUGHT IN from SOMEWHERE ELSE.

THE HORROR

>>5017931
>You argue like a nigger.

Shit, dog, you've clearly been losing way more arguments with black people than can allow a racist to maintain face. I nearly pity you.

>> No.5017948

>>5017919
Hey, guess what? This chart gives NO indication of any shootings occurring, only of interpersonal crime. Now I'm not going to deny that many of these crimes are shootings, but let me ask you a simple question: What would you prefer the state of affairs to be in a country? Private citizens committing crimes against one another, or government forces gunning down the citizenry in the road?

>> No.5017949

>>5017944
>Shit, dog, you've clearly been losing way more arguments with black people than can allow a racist to maintain face. I nearly pity you.
At least I'm not a nigger though.

>> No.5017950

>>5017944


>THE HORROR

glad you can admit a point.

>> No.5017953

>>5017942
>biological determinism is

...not invoked by my post. Just regular determinism. But that's again all par for the course and again HAHAHA /pol/ please.

This thread has been such a delight of the 'It thinks it's people' variety.

>> No.5017954

>>5017948
>What would you prefer the state of affairs to be in a country? Private citizens committing crimes against one another, or government forces gunning down the citizenry in the road?
I would prefer people not being murdered by anyone.

>> No.5017955

>>5017935
Are you a girl? How old are you? And I think it's about on-par in terms of "maturity", I just think the right's more ghetto and the left's more pussy.

>> No.5017957

>>5017874
>Why do you honestly care about the preservation of the human race? You're not going to be around for its destruction, so I really just cannot see why you get so worked up about it.

>> No.5017958

>>5017882
My question about culture was an honest question. Let me ask you a question here. Do you think it was right or just for Western Imperialism to supplant or even eliminate the cultures of the countries it colonized?

>> No.5017960

>>5017948


>government forces gunning down the citizenry in the road?

[citation needed]

(ps i dont think soviet armed militants would count as citizens)

>> No.5017964

>>5017958

I guess I really don't understand, or maybe I'm being exposed to a form of hypersarcarsm?

Like, on the off-chance that you're legitimately confused, >>5017410 was entirely ironic. You can more or less take everything it appears to say as the opposite of my actual opinion. OK?

>> No.5017965

>>5017944
>I'm exactly as open-minded as the nature of the world requires. I know /pol/ requires a distinct species of credulous idiot on which to work its special magic, but I regret to report I'm not your man.
You fit the old-time definition of a "bigot" down to a t, you know.

>> No.5017967

>>5017953
determinisms of any variety are heresy my brother in rawls (peace be upon his name). do you doubt the revealed truth of the infinitely malleable blank slate? the omnipotence of social engineering?

>> No.5017968

>>5017960
Here is a list of massacres in South Africa. Note that the overwhelming majority of alleged attackers are the government forces:

http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/list-major-massacres-1950

http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/list-major-massacres-1950

>> No.5017971

>>5017965

I'm cheerfully bigoted against morons, sure. /pol/tards are morons. What more is there to say?

>>5017967
>determinisms of any variety are heresy

Apart from, like, the historical determinism propounded by Marx? Are you sure?

>do you doubt the revealed truth of the infinitely malleable blank slate?

I repudiate in its entirety the tabula rasa doctrine, yes. I'll wait while you recover from your heart attack.

>> No.5017973

>>5017971
What's it like being a nigger? Do tell.

>> No.5017981

>>5017971
>I'm cheerfully bigoted against morons, sure. /pol/tards are morons
/pol/tard being defined, of course, as any member of the right, and any member of the left whose ideas aren't exactly your cup of tea, yes?

>> No.5017983

>>5017973
>i have, exactly as you predicted, run out of bullshit and become mad

Congratulations.

>> No.5017984

>>5017955
>Are you a girl?
no

>How old are you?
I'd wager I'm the oldest ITT, not that I invoke that as any sort of an appeal to wisdom, I'm certainly not the most well-read person on /lit/ or anything.

also, I haven't read the whole thread, I just saw your post on the front page and quickreplied.

>I think it's about on-par in terms of "maturity", I just think the right's more ghetto and the left's more pussy.

true dat. I personally skew more left in terms of values but politics are retarded and the left can be as dumb as the right depending on the issue.

>> No.5017988

>>5017973
He's not a nigger, and he won't be offended by your calling him a nigger.

>> No.5017996

>>5017981

No, /pol/tard being defined as any poster obviously from /pol/. Like you.

I mean, me? I'm an actual human adult. I'm capable of reasoned disagreement, nuanced discussion, honest debate and so forth. Things /pol/tards can't understand and can at best obliquely refer to in protest at others' reactions to their obviously being /pol/tards.

I can enter entire intellectual realms you can't even dream of. I can literally think things you can't. Poor you. Poor /pol/tard.

>> No.5018013

>>5017968


correction, that is a list of attacks by government forces or involving government forces, not a list of attacks. important distinction

at any rate, i whent ahead and did some quick and dirty number crunching anyways. the population of sa in 1985 was about 35,000,000, and a little over 220-230 deaths by massive attack that same year. this works out to around .63 per 100,000 people murdered by police action. compared to the roughly 30 per 100,000 murder rate, youed be over 5,000% more likely to be done in by a malcontent than a government enforcer.

i think we can safely file that info under 'propaganda' then.

>> No.5018020

>>5018013
Let me ask you again: Do you endorse the government gunning down its own people for assembling? Is that not the mark of a tyrant?

>> No.5018029

>>5017996
But I don't even use /pol/ :\ I "come from /int/"
So let's see this nuanced thinking of yours produce anything but condescension, I personally believe you're incapable of anything else.

>> No.5018034

>>5018020


depends on how we are defining 'assembly'.

speaking from the perspective of a non soufrican, the take overs of various campuses and faculty building in american colleges in the late 60s by armed radicals strains the credulity of 'peaceful association', i can only imagine even more heated situations there.

>> No.5018037

>>5018029


of course hes incapable, he didint even realize he shot himself in the foot on the whole guest worker issue.

>> No.5018044

>>5018034
Did you agree with the milita's actions at Cliven Bundy's ranch? Did you agree with the actions of the British in the Boston Massacre? I will ask you again: Do you believe under a just government that its citizens are being shot dead before they fire on the government forces.
I assume you also agreed with Reagan tear gassing students during protests in the 70's? Do you even agree with the right to bear arms?

>> No.5018046

>>5018037
Well I mean, he IS an intellectual thinker and we ARE just lowly morons incapable of thought

>> No.5018049

>>5018044


i should note that at this point youre shifting the goal posts. youre speaking in terms of categorical imperatives here, when the original discussion was 'are the police killings statistically significant'.

survey says, no they arnt.

>> No.5018067

>>5018029
>But I don't even use /pol/

Well, I'll tell you a little story about two villages, one called Lit and the other called Pol. Lit was full of people who loved to talk and Pol was full of people who loved to shit in their bathtubs and roll around in it all day. Sometimes, people from Pol would go into Lit and try to join in the conversations. But the people from Lit would smell the shit clinging to the filthy Pol-ites' diseased bodies and would reject them. "Fuck off, /pol/tard!" they'd cry. No matter what the hapless Pol-ite did or said, the only response was "Fuck off, /pol/tard!"

And the people of Pol were sad. They brought their problem to the smartest man in all of Pol and asked his advice. He got his biggest bathtub, filled it with the foulest shit he could find and sat in it for a week, stewing. Everyone in Pol grew more and more tense the more he pondered. They knew he was very clever and wise - some folks said he could read without moving his lips, though most were sceptical about talk of such feats - but could he crack this nut?

Finally, the smartest man in all of Pol emerged from his bathtub of shit and announced that he had found a solution. Everyone gathered around to hear his wisdom.

"What we will do," he told them, "is this: Whenever they say 'Fuck off, /pol/tard!' we will-" he paused, furrowing his brows for a moment in intense concentration, as though he had lost grip of his momentous idea. Then he started. "Yes!" he cried. "We will... uh... yes! We'll tell them we aren't from Pol!"

Silence greeted this extrusion. A young man in the crowd put his hand up.

"But... we ARE from Pol," he said, bewildered.

"Yes," said the wise man, "but, and it's very complicated and tricky, I know, BUT, what we do is, we... TELL them that we're not. And then they'll have to talk to us!"

The young man put his hand up again.

"But... we ARE from Pol," he said again.

The wise man sighed and began to speak once more.

It took several months of classes and speeches and diagrams and tutorials, but after much effort, most of the people of Pol were fairly sure that they could manage to say that they weren't from Pol. And so a contingent was dispatched to Lit, in high spirits at the prospect of their inevitable success.

As soon as they entered Lit, the people there began to yell at them "Fuck off, /pol/tards!"

The Pol-ites nudged and winked and grinned at one another. "We're not from Pol!" they cried.

But the people of Lit responded: "Of course you're from Pol, you fucking /pol/tards, we can smell the shit all over you! Fuck off, /pol/tards!"

They went home, as dejected as they were mystified.

tl;dr, fuck off, /pol/tard, you're constitutionally incapable of fooling an actual person.

>> No.5018070

>>5018049
That was not the original conversation. The thrust of my first question was which group of killings is more morally reprehensible, a civilian massacre by government thugs, or homicides between private citizens? If you fail you recognize the difference between these two situations, you are both intellectually dishonest, and morally bankrupt.

>> No.5018071

>>5018037
>i spent two hours screaming about immigrants and then pinned my whole no-i-seriously-have-real-data-here post on an issue that has literally nothing to do with immigration

Of course you did. You're a /pol/tard.

>> No.5018075

>>5018067
You've left me speechless

>> No.5018076

>>5018070


that would be a salient question if they were equivalent, but they are not, not by a long shot. the important distinction was the matter of scale, to the implied question of 'have things gotten better or worse'.

by pretty much every conceivable metric, south africa has gotten worse post aparthied.

>> No.5018077

>>5018067
I'm the same /int/ guy you were responding to, m8, and may I say: lel
You're really that zealous and stupid

But it looks like you've got talent for telling children's stories, m8. Maybe if you could clean up your language you could do that, everyone knows that indoctrinating from the youngest age possible is the only real way to make a lastingly leftist person.

>> No.5018085

>>5018077

Fuck off, /pol/tard.

>> No.5018086

>>5018071


i assert: imported labour displaces native labour
in dispute: imported labour is not displacing labour because the jobs dont exist (?)
on the contrary: many highly technical industries import workers aswell

>> No.5018088

>>5016298
Was yesterday's working class any different?

>> No.5018091

>>5018076
You have no respect for the basic human rights of every citizen, and you're an authoritarian, jack-booted thug. You'd fit great in great at a Stalinist gulag. Remember, it's their fault for demanding food. You have to kill them because they're enemies of the state.

>> No.5018095

>>5018091


keep burning those strawmen.

>> No.5018102

>>5018086

Footloose labour is, of course, a completely different issue from 'immigration' (aka the subject of the thread). But why let that stop you? The important thing is something something NIGGERS.

>> No.5018104

>>5018075

In a good way, I hope.

>> No.5018106

>>5018095
Seeing as you cannot answer a basic question multiple times, I feel no obligation to treat any discourse with you with any level of respect or balanced discourse.

Go back to /p-...oh wait, /int/.

>> No.5018107

>>5018102


the subject of the thread was 'empowering the working class', which got off the rails fairly quickly.

the subject of the conversation was owners of capital under-cutting native workers, which h1b/guest worker programs handily qualify for.

>> No.5018112

>>5018076
>muh south africa

say it again

>> No.5018118

>>5018107
>the subject of the thread was 'empowering the working class'

>>5017747
>It sure is and if those who are unemployed were all unskilled workers, you might well have a point. But they're not and so - as ever - you don't: widespread unemployment inhibits immigration and in many cases leads to a reversal of it (here in Ireland, many Poles simply left for home after the construction bubble burst, for instance).

>>5017762
>ever heard of h1b visas?

HAHAHA /pol/ please.

>> No.5018122

>>5018106


im not even the same guy. i can just as easily ask you why you think being shot by a mugger for your wallet is so much more preferable to being shot by riot police. but we wouldent want to introduce any poisoned apples to an honest discussion would we.

heres a different question for you. would you feel confident in walking through downtown flint (or inner city of your choice) with your new ipad retina and designer digs? if not, what authority is restricting your agency?

>> No.5018124

>>5018112
>Tips fedora

>> No.5018143

>>5018122
I WOULD prefer to be gunned down by a mugger when walking down the road than by an armed member of my government for demanding my rights. It is ludicrous that you believe these situations are the same. And here's a tip, you fag: I've lived in New York City my entire life, and have never been worried walking in any part of the city, because I am not afraid of another man on the street, because I'm not a rube with a persecution complex. If you think it is preferable to be gunned down by an officer of the law or a member of the military police, you have no sense of perspective.

As for your so called "Poisoned Apple", here is my answer: It is preferable because it is an act of mindless violence, not the act of a tyrannical government violently crushing dissent and denying its people their rights. As a man without principles, I can't expect you to understand.

>> No.5018149

>>5018143
*As you are a man

>> No.5018153

>>5018124
Is someone just going around to every thread greentexting 'tips fedora'?

>> No.5018160

>>5017663
You are the worst kind of person.

>> No.5018162

>>5018118


im not sure what you mean by 'widespread unemployment' (whatever connotation is convenient at the time i presume), but ill try to humor you.

for starters, even if all unemployment WAS unskilled, there is no necessary implication that the unemployed would be the immigrants. again, if they are looking for a job, and willing to work for less than a native, they have incentive to immigrate if they are able too (and this is before factoring in social benefits, which are most definitely not insignificant).

further more, the problem of course is compounded since it is not merely unskilled labour that is being competed with, but highly skilled positions aswell. an owner of capital will be just as happy to save money on his engineers as he will on his janitors.

>> No.5018167

>>5018112
it was the topic of that conversation?

>> No.5018187

>>5018143
>I've lived in New York City my entire life, and have never been worried walking in any part of the city, because I am not afraid of another man on the street, because I'm not a rube with a persecution complex.
Yeah, and you clearly lived in a white suburban neighborhood.

>> No.5018188

>>5018162
>im not sure what you mean by 'widespread unemployment'

This conversation, shockingly, does not hinge on your ability to understand simple English phrases. If you are incapable of grasping the meaning of elementary words, this - amazing, I know - does not in fact give you a sure-fire winning ticket. It only means that you're incompetent to partake in the discussion.

>>5018160
>WAAAAAAHHHHH

You want my advice? Cry harder. That always helps.

>> No.5018197

>>5018143


speaking of principles, i cannot help but note how you seem to blithely step around the idea that the could not *possibly* be any reason why a dro would be interested in killing another man, or anything else in between, save capricious power porn for shiggles. i suppose in your mind if they do so, they are by definition oppressors? that any violence by citizens is by definition justified? that you believe in a hard and fast distinction between private and public? let alone authority and subject?

>> No.5018198

>>5018197
>Tips fedora

>> No.5018202

>>5018188


good dodge

>> No.5018210

>>5018202

Nice strawman.

>quoth the /pol/tard: "Nice strawman."

>> No.5018216

>>5017777
I can't tell if you write like a tool ironically or not.

>> No.5018221

>>5018210


ill take that as your admission of defeat then.

>> No.5018229

>>5018216
>I can't tell

And thus any criticism you care to offer can be safely dismissed.

What is going on these days? People are falling over themselves to shove their own ignorance down your throat. Convinced beyond persuasion that the fact of their own mediocrity is something you need to worry about.

>>5018221

No doubt. But of course, you'll take anything and everything as an admission of defeat. You've no idea how to do otherwise.

>> No.5018231

>>5016218
In a word, "the Sixties". The Left, sadly, abandoned class politics and rationalism for identity politics and useless naval-gazing.

>> No.5018238

>>5018229


the situation in poland or ireland is not the situation in america, your idea of 'massive unemployment' is not the case, hence, the dynamic you describe is irrelevant.

>> No.5018245

>>5018231
*navel-gazing

>> No.5018246

>>5017935
How the fuck is it "more mature" all?

>> No.5018253

>>5018238

Unemployment in Ireland: 11.8% as of May 2014.

Unemployment in USA: 6.3% as of May 2014.

But yeah, the condition of not being in gainful employment is like, totally super mega-different in the USA for ALL KINDS of reasons.

>> No.5018259

>>5016218
I guess, because the only effective way of disrupting the system, is not to feed it blood, nor sweat.

>> No.5018260

>>5018253


reasons like being paid to immigrate and produce code.

>> No.5018286

>>5018260
>1 in 20 eligible work candidates are unemployed coders

I wouldn't have thought it possible, but clearly I, an Irishman, am more in touch with the economic issues facing the US than are you, an American. Though with /pol/tards I suppose nothing's beyond belief.

>> No.5018319

>>5018286


your thoughts are incoherent and all over the place mate.

point is, positions (of which the given example is only a subset, incase you have difficulty figuring these things out) that could potentially be filled with natives, at multiple ranges on the socioeconomic-spectrum, are being competed with, with imported labour, as has been demonstrated repeatedly (perhaps you mistakenly think we are arguing something else?).

this is even before getting into outsourcing, which is functionally similar and a far larger phenomenon (though with fewer negative externalities due to the foreign labour not actually living in place).

>> No.5018338

>>5018319
>as has been demonstrated repeatedly

Read: as has been shown in one anecdotal case in a highly specialised market, entirely in line with what you've been arguing for the duration of the thread

I mean, there's nothing left to say but HAHAHA /pol/ please. As ever.

>> No.5018353

>>5018338


you implied that unskilled labour was the only issue, over 80,000 cases says youre wrong, to say nothing of permanent immigration either.

>> No.5018361

>>5018353


maby if this goes on long enough you'll actually get some critical thinking skills.

>> No.5018373

>>5018229
Oh, I see, you are actually a huge tool.

>> No.5018517

>>5018187
>New York City
>White suburban neighborhoods.

Try 127th, which is Harlem, you fucking rube.

>> No.5018551

>>5018517
Oh wow, such bravery.

Did you remind all the black people that you walked past that you weren't scared of them?

>> No.5018556

>>5018551
Nope. I'm just not a pussyboy like you who cries every time he sees a black man.

>> No.5018560

>>5018551
And it's not bravery, because you're delusional. Cities are not dangerous for anyone with a head on their shoulders.

>> No.5018562

They tried to inaugurate women and the sexually and racially disenfranchised into its ranks, but then it turned into the Oppression Games.

>> No.5018568

Actually, the real answer is that the left sold out and betrayed the working class for a veneer of respectability.

>> No.5019350

ctrl+f "feminister": one reply, something about blacks. no mention from her part about workers, leftism or even politics at all...
yeah, she sure is a "leftist", whatever that means for her.
see, anarchists, individualists and the likes are a burden to leftists.

I read half of the thread, and, man... /pol/ are like children, they are so ignorant, you have to explain everything in a detailed way, because otherwise, they will take your argument, twist it/decontextualize it and THEN put it against you. it's incredible how stupid/ignorant can people be...