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/lit/ - Literature

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4998808 No.4998808[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

So another shooting happened, and there's been a lot lately. Everyone's so quick to blame guns, but does anyone else have the feeling that the alienation and apathy brewed within modern society, possibly due to 21st century capitalism (I don't know enough to point fingers) is just as much to blame and an issue nobody recognizes nor talks about?

>> No.4998820

>>4998808
>advance wars
My nigga.

>> No.4998837

Absolutely my first thought.
The young people occupied, tried to change productively, and were hopeful. Didn't work: now they kill each other in despair.
Upside: population reduction could actually be the only solution.

>> No.4998842

What could we do to reduce alienation?

>> No.4998843

>>4998842
Take away guns

>> No.4998844

fuck off to /pol/

>> No.4998845

On the other hand, there have always been murders...
We are just more aware of everything happening everywhere right now.

>> No.4998850

>>4998837
Isn't that kind of backwards though? Why do mass shootings even bother you when you have no problem with killing large swathes of people.

>> No.4998851

>>4998843
>take the drugs away and they won't be on the streets
>they won't try importing / clandestinely produce them
>they won't fuel just a black market economy but also a corrupt justice system designed to make money with impunity
and trust me at least guns are a relatively painless way to kill people compared to stabbing or improvised explosion

>> No.4998852

>>4998844
Come on mate, the whole reason I posed this question on /lit/ is because /pol/ is shit for this kind of discussion.

>>4998845
This is true. If statistics show annual murder rates have not significantly changed then the only real difference is in the amount of reporting.

>> No.4998853

>>4998842
Stop treating humans as nothing more than worker bees and consumers.
We need parks and libraries and art. They should be just as much of the city dwellers' experience as shoe stores and business meetings.

>> No.4998861

>>4998850
I have a HUGE problem with killing people.
I also believe our species is overpopulating our habitat.
The solution is not clear: but catastrophe may naturally straighten it out.

>> No.4998864

>>4998853
I just wished they had half the mind to lower the cost of living in order to facilitate manageable living situations. or maybe give incentive to people who make large purchases with cash instead of borrowing invisible money so more invisible money can be given

>> No.4998878

>>4998864
>lower the cost of living
How?

>> No.4998883

>>4998853
>>4998853
>We need parks and libraries and art. They should be just as much of the city dwellers' experience as shoe stores and business meetings.

See the thing is, where I live, these are all available, but they're all empty; everyone chooses to stay inside and watch TV or sit on tumblr / facebook.

>> No.4998892

>>4998852

This. At this point, the boards on 4chan are pretty insular culturally. Not least because each has a core of dedicated partisans, so that you get literally the same people on /lit/, same people on /mu/, etc. So yeah, the relevance of the topic of the thread is secondary at this point to whether people find it interesting enough to post about. This board has a lot of users with wide interests anyway.

>> No.4998893

The media has something of a love affair with these things. The more pointless the evil taking place, the more coverage it must receive.

We also have a bunch of online echo chambers now like 4chan where people can warp their own perceptions without anyone in real life noticing the change. You can probably talk yourself into murder if you try hard enough and no one will be there to slap some sense into you. The trick is to convince yourself you'll be just like the Joker, Neo, a Natural Born Killer or whatever the fuck kind of icon is fresh in your memory.

>> No.4998902
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4998902

Secularization, increasing of individualization and with less traditional values in the society, it increases a yearning, a longing for a meaning in existence. People have to "fight fo something". Its the same as after the first world war and the depression came, people wanted the war back because "it at least made sense" and it was something to thrive for, not just economic collapse. When -something- has to be done, e.g Elliot Rodger killing a lot of people, or any extreme political agenda, a change the murdering becomes a routine task which has to be performed to satisfy and make sense. This is the burden of the modern society.

>> No.4998913

>>4998808
you're generalizing "modern society" but ignoring the fact that this is specifically an American problem and shootings in other "modern" countries are relatively rare

>> No.4998923

>>4998893
yeah the idea is to assign yourself religious significance and that you will bring about revolution through what is believed to be a tipping point. In reality it's the demise and self fulfilled prophecy of the perpetrator. For if he did not believe in his historical significance he probably would not be able to go through with his own suicide. Struggling for meaning even in death is more alarming than the mass shooting

>> No.4998924

>>4998913
Because they don't have guns.

But I think there's a deeper issue at heart that's not being addressed, the one aforementioned. Taking away the guns would resolve the visible symptoms, but would leave the wider issue unresolved. I feel like the mass murders are a product of readily available guns, and an alienated, lost society. Sure, we could take away guns, but we could just as well try and change society.

>> No.4998932

>>4998924
>but we could just as well try and change society.

which, ironically, would probably require a lot of guns

>> No.4998936

USA has fucked themselves with taking the gun politics too far. Of course its not only the gun laws which has made all the killings happen but its bullshit to say it has nothing to do with it either. I am so glad I live in Scandinavia a with free health care and free university.

>> No.4998944

>>4998902
Yes and no.
Secular does not have to mean empty and spiritless.
Yet there are those who worship money and business and "the market" above all else, and they indoctrinate our children in this warped religion. THEY are the soulless ones, and even they cannot be said to truly be at fault; believing as they do, that they are right.

>> No.4998949

>>4998932
Nope. It can be accomplished through education.

>> No.4998951

>>4998893
Neo was not a killer!!!

>> No.4998970

>>4998853
>libraries
Those things will never get the stupid poor shits and the degenerate to actually do anything.

>> No.4998975

>>4998944
>Secular does not have to mean empty and spiritless.
Are you one of those spiritual atheists?

>> No.4998977

>>4998970
>to actually do anything
Capialist spotted
Why shouldn't they just read and philosophize?
Not productive enough for ya?

>> No.4998981

>>4998977
I think the point he's making is that just because libraries exist doesn't mean people who have no interest in them will go there.

>> No.4998982

>>4998975
Are you one of those capitalistic Christians?
Do you really think Jesus would support American capitalism?

>> No.4998983

>>4998977
No, they don't have the mental need for those. They are born and raised stupid by their retarded parents. Why do you think most millionaires are self-made? Because the millionaires before them are idiots that fail at having their wealth keep going into the next generation.

>> No.4998985

>>4998981
Maybe.
I think the point he's making is that homeless people and layabouts hang out at the library.

>> No.4998989

>>4998932
This is turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy for /pol/.

"The government wants to take away our guns and impose tyrannical gun control rules. Because they're afraid of us! So just in case they do come for our guns, we need to buy more guns, and teach our kids to use guns. They need to be completely obsessed with this shit and ready to start the revolution. BRB donating to the NRA."

It seems that some of them have already convinced themselves that the random spree killings are false flag operations perpetrated by the government.

It's actually not even funny anymore. At all. They've completely lost it.

>> No.4998994

>>4998949
the current education system is ineffectual and a relic of the industrial era good luck educating people on how to change society while their education time is consumed with learning how to perpetuate it

>> No.4999007

>>4998994
Obviously the education system needs an overhaul.
Let's start by getting six year olds outdoors and teaching them real skills.

>> No.4999009

>>4998951
I'm pretty all three of those examples have inspired spree killings in some way. Kids in trench coats. Red-pilled indeed.

>> No.4999017

>>4999009
Neo sacrificed himself as a peace offering to the machines.

>> No.4999024

The shootings concern individual persons in a country of hundreds of millions. People did far worse in the past. Advanced 24/7 media coverage does far more to convey a pervading atmosphere of fear rather than the alienation/apathy culture.

>> No.4999030

Shootings are a response to people being cunts. The only solution is people not being cunts.

>> No.4999032

>>4998883

Right? Why did people already in the 50s and 60s call the TV the idiot box? Facebook and tumblr are part of the decades-long phenomenon that is the destruction of attention span and discouragement of meditative thinking. It started roughly with television, and continues today with the bastardization of the internet by the relentless focus on just a few websites (fb, etc.) and the encouragement of social media--all this instead of treating the internet as what it is: a potentially infinite platform for diversity and expression.

The results are obvious: reading is not a widespread activity; young people have absolutely no consciousness as a group because they have never been taught or been required to think deeply; the way we use the internet itself is shamefully circumscribed; since the population has not been introduced to literature or poetry (and let's be honest, probably can't even read it), the ordinary person has nowhere to turn when their passions are stirred. No wonder people reach for guns, medication, drugs, the internet and all that.

You could say that increasing technological capabilities led to higher rates of production, requiring higher rates of consumption, leading to the development of mass advertising (itself aided by the rapid growth of psychology in the last century); and that thinking deeply or having a sense of place and being in the world is antithetical to the aims of advertising, whose targets need to be as gullible and vulnerable as possible. At any rate, although the sheer scale of the modern world is almost unfathomably vast, all our modern practices can be interpreted within a good ole moral framework. Human beings are still at the center of everything because we are the only beings with a moral capability.

>> No.4999041
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4999041

>>4998852
>If statistics show annual murder rates have not significantly changed then the only real difference is in the amount of reporting.
Next time take the three seconds to actually google the yearly homicide statistics.

>> No.4999042

>thinking deeply and having a sense of being in the world is antithetical tobthe needs of advertising
Whoa, let's not jump over this point!
Thought I'd rescue it for tl;dr.

>> No.4999044

>>4998808
I could answer you but now I have to go pwn some black hole niggaz on AW2.

But seriously, it's late capitalism to blame, I guess. We're so separated from non-spectacular living that everyone is grasping at whatever straws they can, and some people, due to various reasons, can't handle this alieantion from real life.

You should go read some Debord. His stuff is 50 years old but it has aged like wine

>> No.4999058

>>4998842
>>4998853
>>4998883
See, I'm a art student and my girlfriend is a literature / linguistics student (inb4 poor), and we both have, at some point, worked in social projects to incentive people to read, produce and consume art, and the thing is, they don't have the basic significators (is that the word? I'm always confusing those semiotics terms) to take anything meaningful from them.

Even in a private school where I worked that was supposedly the most prestigious one in my city, the kids simply treated art / literature as entertainment, and couldn't be bothered with anything beyond "this is pretty / funny".

We need to, somehow, teach people how to think critically, simply exposing them to a enviroment that requires critical thinking won't do nothing.

(sorry for any confusing terms, english isn't my first language and I just woke up)

>> No.4999059

>>4999017
I'm not sure which spree killer it was who went about in a black trench coat. It was suspected that he was as obsessed with The Matrix as he was with guns in general. Neo is obviously sane, but he isn't exactly gentle with those random cops being thrown at him.

>> No.4999064

>>4999007
hard to do when both parents are now expected to work a majority of the day, not to mention how hard it is to teach children concrete skills in an urban environment

>> No.4999065

>>4998924
Brazilian here, where getting a gun isn't that easy, even a illegal one. I've tried in the past (not for mass shootings, I just like to shoot cans and smoke dope in the woods).

I know people who would be Eliot Rodger or those Columbine kids by now if they could get their hands in some assault rifles or smgs

>> No.4999072

>>4999007
Godwin, Kropotkin, I guess even Proudhon have been saying this for what, 300, 400 years?

>> No.4999077

>>4999007
Which real skills would that be? Archaic skills that nobody needs?

>> No.4999078

>>4999041
I guess the thing is the intent behind the murders.

People feel completely blank when it comes to gangbusts or shit like that, but the minute a supposedly well-educated individual starts randomly killing people, they freak out. With reason, I guess.

>> No.4999081

>>4998808
>Everyone's so quick to blame guns, but does anyone else have the feeling that the alienation and apathy brewed within modern society, possibly due to 21st century capitalism (I don't know enough to point fingers) is just as much to blame and an issue nobody recognizes nor talks about?

No, because America is not the only country in the world that is a modern society with a 21st century (semi)capitalist system. You are 20 times more likely to die from gun violence in the US than in other developed nations. There have been about 2 mass shootings every month since '09 here.

So no, the issue is not "modern society." It's something else about America. And whatever that thing is, it has it in common with Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela, and Honduras.

I wonder what it could be.

>> No.4999082

>>4999058
I think I get what you mean. People don't know how to look beyond capitalist factory standards anymore. Everything has to be easy to consume and just as easy to mass produce. Anything else is just weird shit for nerds/not fun enough.

This is why literature is especially fucked.

>> No.4999090

>>4999077
We don't really need to work 8 hours a day either, considering our technological advances, and yet we do.

"Need" is a completely blank word for utilitarists and capitalists to assign their short-sighted means. If we taught kids how to grow their food, or knit, or paint or write, they would at least feel some sense of pride in their own accomplishments, feel truly connected to their production, living and just be more aware of the world around them.

>> No.4999093

>>4999081
See >>4998924

It's a function of two variables. When one is missing the equation ceases to function. Many of those other developed nations quite likely have societal alienation and detachment in large doses, but these are qualities that do not easily manifest themselves in a visible form.

>> No.4999094

>>4999042

I don't wanna believe advertisers are actively like yeah fuck you sheeple, we want to feed your empty souls with our garbage, yeah!

But what if it were subtle? Like, current market trends show that blah blah... Focus group testing has shown this method to be effective... We're not immoral, we're just following the empirical data!

>> No.4999109

>>4999093
>but these are qualities that do not easily manifest themselves in a visible form.
Suicide rates. Not as easy to kill other people but you can sure kill yourself.

>> No.4999129

>>4998853
No, we need common ownership.

>> No.4999133

>>4998989
because /pol/ is big enough to fulfill a prophecy of national impact...

>> No.4999135

>>4999109
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/03/health/suicide-rate-rises-sharply-in-us.html?_r=0

>> No.4999142

Jesus, the amount of bullshit in this thread is shocking

>we need libraries and education
>people should read more
>build more parks

This is the type of nonsense I'd read in the comment sections of my New Yorker facebook feeds

All you niggas is so gay

>> No.4999146

>muh late capitalism

>> No.4999149

>>4999142
Give us some fucking better explanation then, fucking Ubermensch

>>4999146
>still denying the spectacles poisonous influence on our day-to-day "lives"

how's it going, bluepill

>> No.4999168

>>4998808
I was having a talk with a coworker yesterday and he was telling me of his depressing little material woes and suicidal tendencies. I've been reading Novatore lately and N writes that all current systems (Capitalism, socialism, democracy, communism) are all philosophies of the Belly, all aimed at decreasing material discomfort and not at all concerned with improving the individual. I think that some individuals, that don't have the mind to improve themselves, all eventually lose faith in the material things, all eventually grow a sense of anger at not having some material pleasure, and these shootings might just be a natural symptom of an increasingly consumerist and interconnected lifestyle. The tyranny of "normalcy" has been exacerbated by social media, and some men see other men living "fantastic lives" and get angrier and angrier at the perceived injustice against themselves, until finally they snap and go out and shoot people as a way of committing suicide. In most cases they kill themselves anyway.

Either that or the NWO is faking shootings to take guns from the people and push an agenda of "normalcy" through demonizing anyone that's not vanilla bland as potentially psychotic and dangerous. I don't think that's the case, but it's a popular theory among the conspiracy theorists.

>inb4 armchair philosophizing.
Let me know why I'm wrong, don't just call me a Fedora.

>> No.4999178

>>4999149
>Give us some fucking better explanation then, fucking Ubermensch
I had to fight my way towards the answers bro do the same

>> No.4999183

Its really just a symptom of the whole 1% situation, psychiatric medication and weapons are just catalysts.

I mean what real incentive is there to live life directly according to the state?

there are so many parasites attached to western countries they are barely sustaining themselves, lurching from financial crisis to financial crisis....

exclusive networks, corporations, banks, investment groups, secret societies, gangs, religion, the list goes on, all constantly sucking the blood out of the system.

there is too many faceless foes the system is too exploitable, if you aren't in one of those special little nasty groups you are set for an inevitable life of toil and even if you do that properly and honorably that could be taken from you at any moment, fired, illness, financial crisis and oops all your super is gone etc

Is it any wonder these kids resent everyone and everything, almost all of them are social outcasts.

When we had tribes everyone knew each other. If anyone was found exploiting the tribe everyone came down hard on them, they weren't in another country behind a computer and six chains of corporations owning each other.

With a system free of parasites you actually got a return on your efforts there was an incentive to maintain good order of the tribe.

Right now in most western countries the incentive is almost entirely swayed towards subversion, any way you can exploit something is almost always going to be more beneficial than playing by the rules and besides if playing by the rules is no sure thing then there is even less risk trade off in exploiting where possible.

With tribal community we had unity, there was transparency and open trust.

Now with massive nations and globalization we have no unity, no direct chain of causation, no transparency, no open trust.

>> No.4999185

>>4998878
have chinks and non-american people work shit wages so the non-chink american people can enjoy life at a lower cost

>> No.4999188

>>4999178
I do have my own set of answers, though I believe they are A) extremely different from yours B) somewhat incomplete, and any attempt to bring them to completion will result in contradictions.

It's rather depressnig, tbh

>> No.4999204

>>4999090
The 'outdoors' in your post had me suspecting some kind of naive romanticist back to the land type of deal. But you're right, there should be more of a balance. Mere abstractions won't cut it.

>> No.4999209

Isn't this mostly an American problem?

What about American culture makes its people so prone to violence?

>> No.4999217

I can recommend the documentary 'The Century of Self' by Adam Curtis which touches on issues of mass psychology, consumerism, public relations and its relations to capitalism. Nothing in this is new informations, but he connects it in an entertaining way.
Can be watched here: https://archive.org/details/TheCenturyOfSelfThereIsAPolicemanInsideAllOurHeadsepisode3

>> No.4999218

>>4999209
My theory is that it may not be purely American, see >>4999093

Though America is more drenched in consumerism than most, so it's probably more prevelant in America.

>> No.4999219

>>4999058
>>4999082

agree with these guys

>> No.4999221

>>4999142
Yeah, this about sums up my response to his thread.

Underage everywhere

>> No.4999223

>>4999218
It's mostly American. Europeans just smoke Gauloises and write edgy books when they feel alienated. Except for psycho Nords.

>> No.4999234

>>4999168
Superior gentleman pls.

>> No.4999235

>>4999223
Too bad most of the worlds economies are pegged to america.

>> No.4999237

Personally I think it all leads back to this great farce we call identity. I've come to believe that it doesn't actually exist, but that we have to keep up the illusion so that people can keep being sold crap. Even the folk who don't like the 'heteronormative' status quo are just furthering the same bullshit by creating false identities. Everyone wants to know who they are, but the sad truth is that they are nobody.

>> No.4999241

>>4999235
What does that have to do with anything?

>> No.4999243
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4999243

>>4999218
The only reason I brought it up is because the gun death rate in the US is significantly higher than the rest of the world. I think there's a lot of truth to what you say, but the US in particular goes far and beyond the rest.

The best explanation I've come up with is that America has a much bigger culture of fear, especially when it comes to the media.

>> No.4999257

>>4999241
When America falls the whole world will go with it. Same with China or any other country of global relevance.
>inb4 butthurt yuropoors get butthurt that they don't matter anymore

>> No.4999263

>>4999257
Oh, so because I said a thing about America you don't like, you just went USA USA USA. That still has nothing to do with your little massacre culture though.

>> No.4999267

>>4999263
You asked what it has to do with anything and I told you. No need to get so butthurt, yuropoor.

>> No.4999277

>>4999204
Yeah, people often get that impression, but I'm definitely not that kind of person, I actually think technology has huge benefits to us, just not the way it's being used.

But I still think children should have more of a playful / ludic / empirical experience, at least in their formative years, and that such experiences shouldn't be dropped in adulthood, anyway.

>> No.4999289
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4999289

>>4999267
It has nothing to do with the issue at hand. You're just jealous of our sophisticated ways of dealing with alienation.

>> No.4999313
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4999313

>>4999257

((((((((((((((

amerika destroy rip

>> No.4999315
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4999315

>>4999313
>all this butthurt

>> No.4999361

>>4998808
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvgC8lU8n-s

>> No.4999403

>>4999267

Sorry mate, but what you did was bring up something tenuously related to the matter at hand because he hurt your feelings, and now, funnily enough, you are the one calling everyone else butthurt. Repeating something over and over doesn't make it true, but it does indicate just how wide your own sundered sphincter gapes. Stop posting and go and apply lotion.

>> No.4999506

>>4999007
this

they also should teach middle schoolers law and what is illegal, and why, and what is legal and why

>> No.4999521

>>4999133
>/pol/ is too small to start another civil war so I don't have to take this shit seriously

Charles Manson style serial killings happening all over the country will still be really fucking bad.

>> No.4999546

>>4998808
I agree with what you said, but shootings in the US are nothing new. Gun crimes have decreased significantly in the US. It seems as though they're more common, however, because the media is giving these cases more attention. Most media sources are left-leaning and so are in favor of stricter gun-control policies, so they're giving these shootings more attention in order to influence public opinion on the second amendment. I hope with all of the coverage of these shootings that there are some changes made. We need stricter gun laws here.

>> No.4999557

>>4999506
the problem with teaching what is ilegal is that not everything has a realy WHY it's ilegal

>> No.4999584

>>4999077
making gymnasiums where oily nude men will wrestle is the only solution

>> No.4999865

>>4998808
>(I don't know enough to point fingers)
Then shut the fuck up.

>> No.4999874

>>4999865
You sure make convincing argument with those hot opinions.

>> No.4999929

>>4998808
Objectification by institutions who think data equals policy. Schools have objectified their student populations into test data. Corporations have objectified their customers into sales data. The governments of the OECD have objectified their populations into production and consumption units and criminals and not-yet criminals.

None of these mass killers believes that they are killing actual human beings. They are objects acting in a universe of objects. Just like they were told and treated. Guns are a red herring.

When that kid stabbed 20 people at school; crickets and tumbleweeds. The USA loves violence because we were created by it in the 18th, we made our moral choices by it in the 19th, and we established an empire with it in the 20th. Rome, Mongols, Britain - the first among global powers is always the most violent.

>> No.5000084

>>4998808
>come to /lit/ to blame shit on capitalism
god you're a faggot OP. I mean, almost everyone on /lit/ already hates capitalism. Blaming things on capitalism with spurious logic and long self serving posts is what this board does. If you wanted an interesting conversation you should have blamed the shootings on a lack of capitalism. For example:

...but does anyone else have the feeling that the alienation and apathy brewed within modern society possibly due to a lack of capitalism in the 21st century?
>now the faggot zizek bots are already mad as hell. We continue
I mean in the 19th century most kids worked from an early age. In factories or on the farm all kids had to work. They became independent very early on. The average 14 year old in 1870 had worked more and therefore surpassed the maturity and character of people graduating from university at 23 or 24 today.
>almost everyone on /lit/ is some early twenties college student or grad who thinks they are amazing. So they are now super mad.
I think the introduction of socialism and state dependence through the public school and system and subsidised college is what causes these shootings. It prolongs childhood, sometimes indefinitely. Young minds are meant to be productive early on. They should bump into reality, make mistakes make money and be independent. They should be introduced to the dangers of life because life is dangerous. But if you've been stuck in artificial environment for 12 years of your life, where many are put on drugs, again paid for by socialism. Put into a uniform to make everyone look the same because muh equality. Then when you get out your life is paid for by the impersonal collective either through student loans of welfare. It's unnatural and sometimes people just snap. With capitalism by the time these kids are the age they have been committing the shootings they have already developed many social and economic connections. They become what humans are meant to be, not animals in a zoo the progressives have created. If they don't they're dead.

See OP. I don't even have to agree with these things. But this is how you start an interesting thread on /lit/.

>> No.5000103

>>5000084
It is this mindset that kills boards. Playing devil's advocate is one thing. Deliberately posting a provocative OP for the sole sake of netting replies is quite another.

>> No.5000138

>>4999183
>>4999090
>>4999044
The modern way of living is proven to cause behavioral abnormalities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink

>> No.5000150

>>4999209
The obscene amount of bullshit in American society is enough to drive any half-sensitive person to murder or withdrawal from society.

>> No.5000154

>>5000103
iirc that is what the internet buffs call a 'trollpost'

>> No.5000217

>>4999243
This is a moot point. It doesn't matter how people die, what matters is how many people die. When you look at homicide rates for these same countries, you find that the US doesn't out number the others. Guns make no fucking difference, it's just a way to kill people that other countries don't have.

>> No.5000283

>>4999081
>>4998843
>>>4998924
>guns
/pol/ likes to compare the US to Switzerland which has more guns than the US by inhabitants, and little crime.
Most gun crimes in the US comes from African-Americans, and Switzerland still has very few of them.

Moreover, the US are a huge country, with a huge population.
>>>4999081
> There have been about 2 mass shootings every month since '09 here.
A handful out of 300 millions goes crazy?
That's nothing, and probably not statistically different from what goes on in other countries.
In Europe there's shootings, there's mass stabbings, there's random murder too.
There are people who snap and kill their whole families.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10757275/French-teenagers-stabbed-brother-in-plot-to-kill-family.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/25/france.topstories3
Breivik killed more Norwegians relatively to their total population than 9/11 killed Americans.

The main difference between France (for example) and the US is that the media are more powerful in the US, they instantly publish names and details and go crazy over it.
When DSK got into trouble in NYC, the French media was simultaneously acting shocked that the trial was filmed (forbidden in France) and thrilled to put it all on air too.

Bigger population => more shootings, more people care about the news, with people from Florida thinking "zomg a kid in Alaska murdered a classmate, we're not safe in America anymore!" while disregarding what goes on only a few hundreds miles away in Mexico...

>> No.5000305

>>5000283
Another example, just last month:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/25/belgian-police-hunt-gunman-jewish-museum-murders-brussels
tl;dr: France-born jihadist goes to Belgium to shoot people
See, we have issues with our own browns too.
7/7 perpetrators were from Leeds...

>> No.5000334

>>4998808
idk m8 nearly all crimes have gone down since the 1970s
What's changed? It's much easier to disseminate information once a shooting happens. How long did it take for news about the UCSB shooting to spread globally? MAYBE an hour?
That, and people realized that CNN will spend hundreds of hours evaluating what led to the shooting, what could have prevented it, what it means for gun owners, etc etc. Shooting up a school now means you become a celebrity.

>> No.5000365

>>5000334
Now that it's becoming normal you'll start to see competition though. Extra gruesome points, special tactics, highscore attempts etc. A normal shooting won't cut it anymore soon. God bless America.

>> No.5000392

>>5000217
They make a difference for mass shootings.

>> No.5000417

>>4999168
>N writes that all current systems (Capitalism, socialism, democracy, communism) are all philosophies of the Belly, all aimed at decreasing material discomfort and not at all concerned with improving the individual.
FYI, he's just repeating Plato and Socrates. See: The Republic

> I think that some individuals, that don't have the mind to improve themselves, all eventually lose faith in the material things, all eventually grow a sense of anger at not having some material pleasure,
This is more along the lines of John Stuart Mill and Thomas Hobbes, you should check Utilitarianism and Leviathan, respectively.

>> No.5000442

>>4999058
Could you say more about your experiences?

>> No.5000532

>>4998951
I know I'm slowpokin', but that kid who shot the congresswoman in Arizona and killed a few others in the crowd thought he was Neo.

>> No.5000543

>>5000138
We're already seeing this in Japan. Herbivores, hikkikomori, Koreans, etc.
I think they tried importing Mexicans but they left because Japan was to fucked up for them.

>> No.5000551

>>4999032
>read this
>refresh my other four open threads
Damn.

>> No.5000557

>>5000551
This is why I try to avoid extended 4chan browsing these days. I recognize that it's perpetuating a shortened attention span and probably giving me minor ADD.

>> No.5000570

>>4998853
Shoe stores and haute consumer culture are as meaningful to the average gallery frequenter as photographic artwork and modernist paintings

I think more informed leisure is the answer personally

>> No.5000577
File: 417 KB, 3268x553, wizard revolution.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5000577

I know you're not going to accept it but /r9k/ is right. This is a result of the Sexual Revolution and the free-market structure it imposes on human relationships. Just like the economical free-market, the sexual free-market increases inequality and pauperization amongst the "losers" and just like the proletariat creates revolutionary consciousness so the omega males do it when they see themselves completely relegated in society.

Pic related, of course we will never reach the point of a Wizard Revolution, but such shootings will still be common, even in countries with harder gun access.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realengo_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnenden_school_shooting

Why the Debord or Baudrillard fans never adress this issue? Simple, because in the sexual free-market, they are winning, so they don't want a revolution.

>> No.5000584
File: 72 KB, 634x397, capitalismo-socialismo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5000584

>>4998994
>the current education system is ineffectual and a relic of the industrial era good luck educating people on how to change society while their education time is consumed with learning how to perpetuate it

The current education system was put in place by social revolutionaries like John Dewey and Paulo Freire who wanted to use it as a way to indoctrinate young people in revolutionary politics. No way it is meant to perpetuate society, but to overthrow it.

>> No.5000594

>>4999929
I thought all three of those things were based mostly on a combination of population pressure, superior technology, and trade interests.
I wouldn't say that violence and power don't go hand-in-hand (hell, they're synonyms!), but they're both results of these situations synergizing.

>> No.5000637

>>5000577

lol do people really believe the first to panels of that?

On what planet are 70% of men virgins? And who actually thinks that everyone was monogamous back then.

>> No.5000650

>>5000637
>actually I think only like 20% of men have descendents living now
>not sure though
>look it up, "percent of men have bred"
>first result is "look out women, new breed of thoughtful male consumer is growing"
Okay.

>> No.5000660

>>5000283
This is the best post so far.

But I don't like the Switzerland comparison. It's more useful to compare the U.S. to a country with comparable ethnic and cultural heterogeneity - the U.K., who effectively banned guns.

First of all, they could achieve this much more easily than the U.S. just because of geography - like Japan (who did the same thing), the U.K. doesn't share a land border with any other country. The U.S. shares a border with Mexico, where thousands upon thousands of American guns have already traveled and from which millions of people have entered into the country undetected. It's fanciful to think we can stop guns from flowing across the Mexican border.

Even if we could get rid of the guns as the British did, you need only look at their rates of violent crime to see that this is a hollow victory.

Most of the gun violence in the U.S. that gives you these scary statistics is invisible to to most Americans, and they would not even know it was going on if every mass shooter didn't lead to a media extravaganza that seems intent on convincing you that you can't go to the supermarket without getting shot. It's gang violence, you fucking fools, none of them are buying their guns legally and police are already trying their damnedest to get their guns away from them.

>> No.5000676

>>5000283
Isn't Switzerland passing laws that guns have to be kept in armories, and the Swiss have like absolutely no problem with this?

>> No.5000703

>>5000676
Probably. The reason Switzerland has so many guns is because of conscription and letting people just take their service weapons home with them, another reason it's a bad comparison.

Americans are also very hostile to gun control for cultural and historic reasons. We are a country born out of bloody, armed rebellion against tyranny. American culture (when there actually was such a thing) was born of the Frontier Culture, where teaching your son to shoot (whether it be deer, sarsaparilla bottles or invading injuns) was like teaching him to shave. It is an integral part of American culture, which is why it's Northeastern and West coast liberals with no regard or empathy (and in fact, a total disdain) for those in the South and Midwest who lead the push for gun control.

But as that Anon pointed out, most of our gun violence is because of negros, of which the Swiss have none. Not being racist, but it is very much a reality that higher rates of ethnic diversity correlate with more violence and crimes. Japan is another instance of "successful gun control" liberals like to point to, and it's a shitty comparison for the same reason. You can't compare us to Switzerland, or Scandinavia, or Japan. For better or for worse we are a multicultural nation, and there are very real disadvantages to that.

>> No.5000714
File: 93 KB, 1000x1419, michel_houellebecq.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5000714

>>5000650
http://web.archive.org/web/20120227083719/http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm

>Recent research using DNA analysis answered this question about two years ago. Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men.

>I think this difference is the single most underappreciated fact about gender. To get that kind of difference, you had to have something like, throughout the entire history of the human race, maybe 80% of women but only 40% of men reproduced.

Even though, of course i don't think 70% of men are virgins, or that society who enforced monogamy were actually exclusively monogamous. That image is just a playful ilustration of my concept, which is the rise of inequality in the sexual market after the sexual revolution and the bitterness and anger it promotes on the "losers".

Michel Houellebecq tackles the same questions in his first books.

>It's a fact, I mused to myself, that in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization. Some men make love every day; others five or six times in their life, or never. Some make love with dozens of women, others with none. It's what's known as " the law of the market". In an economic system where unfair dismissal is prohibited, every person more or less manages to find their place. In a sexual system where adultery is prohibited, every person more or less manages to find their bed mate. In a totally liberal economic system certain people accumulate considerable fortunes; others stagnate in unemployment and misery. In a totally liberal sexual system certain people have a varied and exciting erotic life; others are reduced to masturbation and solitude.

And in the end the narrator advises his loser friend to just kill normies.

>> No.5000718

>>5000703
if we are hostile to gun control for cultural and historic reasons, shouldn't the people in new england be the ones most hostile to gun control laws? i mean, that's where a lot of the revolution took place.

>> No.5000730

>>5000718
It's also where the local culture hasn't had to deal with Indians or border raiders in two hundred years.

>> No.5000739
File: 66 KB, 600x410, 758c111232d73ff4e6979e6e8ef5615d[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5000739

>>5000718
They're also the farthest removed from the gun culture, though. The progression of American culture was to commerce (even at the time of the revolution) and education in the Northeast, and they didn't have as much use for guns as those who lived on the frontier and lived the westward expansion.

I recommend Colin Woodard's book on his Eleven Nations theory. He has a compelling case for his hypothesis that the United States can be broken down into eleven nations, and he gives what I think is a profoundly accurate description of how culture breaks down geographically in this country.

>> No.5000753

>>4998808
its all good,relax

>> No.5000756
File: 854 KB, 600x887, ok.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5000756

>>5000753

>> No.5000758
File: 97 KB, 800x600, Evola.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5000758

>>4998944
>Secular does not have to mean empty and spiritless.
You're telling me. Religion and tradition are the only two things that gave life pre-1914 any sense for the average pleb. Now its gone we're left with Amnesty International and McDonalds and Coca-Cola. What I would give for some actual meaning.

>> No.5000759

socialism doesn't work capitalism with welfare does

>> No.5000764

>>5000756
Why aren't things alright in your life, m8?

>> No.5000767

>>4998808
genius

>> No.5000775

>>5000739
>florida part of the deep south and spanish caribbean
>not part of New Netherland
Seriously, it's all retired New Yorkers
Also, why the hell does "Greater Applachia" extend all the way to Texas

>> No.5000776
File: 40 KB, 450x532, ennui.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5000776

>>5000764
No friends.

>>5000758
This is an interesting comparison you make. What I'd draw attention to is the fact that religion does not deliver the goods until after death, meaning you could not claim dissatisfaction while living (for the most part). Meanwhile, material products are the exact opposite, they deliver immediately, but you need more once they're gone. I'd imagine that disillusionment is far easier to manifest when this is where your life derives most of its pleasure and meaning.

>> No.5000791

>>4998944
It's not just about secular vs. religious

The culprit is largely the atomistic individualism of Enlightenment thought. It's about a degradation of a common purpose through a traditional culture.

>> No.5000819

>>5000776
>I'd imagine that disillusionment is far easier to manifest when this is where your life derives most of its pleasure and meaning
I'd argue that the spiritual Platonic plane is far more satisfying for people than the material world, simply because that is how it sells itself. Christianity makes you feel good, it looks good, it does good and in the case of cathedrals for instance its an aesthetically pleasing existence. The church gives you guidelines to live by and so long as you live within them you can feel fulfilled in the knowledge that you are doing what is holy. Now the material world can do all that. As you said when its delivered immediately you need more. The metaphysical aspects of religion do not deliver in this life, its always just over the horizon. To use a cynical comparison imagine a kid who gets Christmas every day, that would suck after a week. Now imagine a kid who is always living in Christmas Eve. The latter kid will always be happy so long as keeps on believing that Christmas morning is just one sleep away. The other kid will be miserable in that he has plenty, more than plenty, but has no reason or purpose to live for anything more. The spiritual plane satisfies long term, the material short term. I'm yet to see an example proving otherwise.

>> No.5000824

>>5000776
Why no friends brah?

>> No.5000826

>>5000819
See, this is the main reason I think the BNW society wouldn't work. Brainwashing and FAS only go so far.

>> No.5000837

>>5000826
>BNW society
>FAS
I have to admit my ignorance here, not familiar with this jargon.

>> No.5000839

>>5000837
He's joking, BNW is perfect.

>> No.5000861

>>5000826
Thus was my problem with Plato's Republic, his idea that you can just hide ideas of evil from the public and they'll never consider them is an absurd premise.

>>5000819
Exactly. Now, for those of sufficient intellect, after the abandonment of religious meaning they can still overcome the transience of the material world and still find some meaning / make sense of the meaningless, but for the average Joe, without the guiding hand of religion, when set in the material world, once they become disillusioned with the material, all they do is drown in a pervading hopelessness and confusion.

>>5000824
All went to different unis and I'm an idiot who didn't make friends freshman year.

>> No.5000867

>>5000819
I think if you talk to religious people - not reading theologians, the people who are filling churches every Sunday - the day-today appeal of faith has little to do with the afterlife. It's as simple as never being alone. God is always with you, God is always giving you strength. God judges, but he will always forgive you no matter how you wrong him.
He is the opposite of many of the sources of anxiety.

>> No.5000870

>>5000776


>What I'd draw attention to is the fact that religion does not deliver the goods until after death

only if youre a dirty protestant (http://www.xenosystems.net/double-predestination/))

>> No.5000876

>>5000870
You caught me, I was raised a dirty Protestant.

>> No.5000881

>>5000861
>after the abandonment of religious meaning they can still overcome the transience of the material world and still find some meaning / make sense of the meaningless, but for the average Joe, without the guiding hand of religion, when set in the material world, once they become disillusioned with the material, all they do is drown in a pervading hopelessness and confusion
In the 21st century there really isn't very much reason why you shouldn't skip class to watch porn and then shoot yourself, or others. We killed God and all we got were single mothers.
>>5000867
>It's as simple as never being alone. God is always with you, God is always giving you strength. God judges, but he will always forgive you no matter how you wrong him.
Nietzsche called Christianity a "crutch" for that very reason. Though that is another point in itself, Christianity is the complete birth to post-death package. Not many other religions allow for a personal relationship with God. It was in some societies the domain of a priestly caste.

>> No.5001013

this thread is actually pretty funny. It makes me realize what it's like to be browsing /lit/ again

pseudointellectual checklist:
capitalism
alienation
Plato
individualization

I feel like every thread on here is basically talking about the same thing from slightly different angles

>> No.5001041

>>5001013
>pseudointellectual
This has become such a meaningless criticism, meant to separate the so-called "illegitimate" intellect from the true, genuinely highbrow intellect, without even defining what truly constitutes being an intellectual. If you're going to post at least make some arguments.

>> No.5001105

>>4998853
Fresh from your American pyscho novel recommended to you by another bourgeoisie? Do you ever ponder the hypocrisy of advocating public resources for shit you don't, nor any one, uses?

If people want to read, they can download it off the internet; if people want to not value money, they simply stop. Your like a fascist who is to weak willed to reach the conclusion of their logic - oh wait the word for that is liberal

>> No.5001114

>>5001105
What would the conclusion of the logic be then.

>> No.5001142

>>5001114
>People should do X
>People will not naturally do X
>People will not do X even when I make lots of libraries and shit
>I will make people do X

X being enlightened individuals free from worldly desires and moving towards an integrated community free of ignorance or whatever it is you want.

>> No.5001181

What's the murder rate once you take out non-whites and poor whites killing each other? What is it once you take out non-premeditated murders by people who knew the victim?

Isn't something on the order of 80% of gun homicides gang related? Are people on /lit/ really afraid of getting killed by a gun?

>> No.5001190

>>5001105
He doesn't understand that the vast majority of people just don't care about art, literature, or the outdoors.

People prefer to watch tv, run on treadmills inside temperature controlled gyms, and shitpost on facebook/4chan/tumblr/reddit.

Just give up on burdening yourself like a camel walking through the world's desert. Read a book, listen to some great music, go to an art museum--but don't expect other people to join you because they see the light. Redeem yourself. Be a sun that shines light on others and wishes for them to be suns themselves.

Just know ahead of time that not everyone can or really wants to be a sun.

>> No.5001235

Isn't it the case that gun violence has actually gone down through the decades?

Isn't it the case that these incidents are being blown out of proportion? [Not that incidents of mass-shootings aren't a big event]

>> No.5001307

>>5001235
>>5001181
people including barry o only care enough to bring it to national broadcast because its middle class white kids getting blasted instead of poor colored ones

>> No.5001460

>>5000584
>dat one sided perspective
No wonder Brazil is such shit.

>> No.5001657

>>5001041
hey look, redundant quotes inserted and everything. The condescending really looks good on you

>just "try" to "make" an... "argument"
>this is the swaddled baby that is you

>> No.5002485

>>4999094
It is:
a) that bad
and
b) that banal
In their defense, a lot of these people are empty minded idiots who believe in the market and statistics.
But not a few of them are control freak assholes who believe they are superior to everyone else, so why shouldn't they exploit the hell out of the masses? (similar to crime lords)(or maybe actually exactly the same thing)

>> No.5003106

Bump.

>> No.5003128

The more that this shit is reported on in the bandwagon news, the more troubled individuals are going to turn guns on the people around them. The news likes ponder the influence of video games, movies, and fucking Slenderman, but it is they themselves that are making this shit more likely to happen.

Fucking try and charge all CEOs of all major news networks.

>> No.5003210

>>5003128
It's easy to get fear in the US because you identify with people who live at the other side of a continent.
If a shooting happens in Finland, people in Portugal don't start fearing for their life, but this is what happens in the US.
Impression of violence =/= actual violence.

>> No.5003229

>>4998808
>ma nigga
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzeZhCt5PVA

You aren't a homosexual, OP. And if you are, at least you're not a faggot

>> No.5003325
File: 486 KB, 660x463, ‘No_Way_To_Prevent_This,’_Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens_The_Onion_-_America_s_Finest_News_Source_-_2014-06-11_06.47.13.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5003325

no seriously guys, just enact and enforce sensible gun control regulations.
>americans

>> No.5003333
File: 89 KB, 600x431, black-panthers-seattle-1969-armed-on-capitol-steps.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5003333

>>5003325
Dog, guns are the thin steel line between us and tyranny

>> No.5003334

>>5003325
It'd be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

What is it about Americans that they just don't want to listen? Doing incredibly stupid things, not willing to listen to any advice. Is USA an autist? Much freedom? WTF is going on with people there?!

>> No.5003369

>>5003333
Propaganda doesn't become true even if you keep spreading it.

>> No.5003374

>>5003334
Mah guns.

No really though, the way I see it? Guns are pretty much engrained in America's culture and will never leave. I believe in reasonable gun control but I also believe in gun ownership.

The way I see it, guns practically BELONG in a rural setting, but have no fucking place in an urban setting, except for maybe a handgun under your seat or in your purse. Nothing wrong a shotgun hanging in your pickup. But we don't really need dumbfucks walking around grocery stores with guns on their hips (especially when store employees aren't even allowed to ask to see a gun license if some fucker comes in with an unconcealed gun).

What gets me is the whole "we need guns so we can fight back against the government if need be."

>tfw when you need a law to say it's okay for you to be armed against the government instead of not being a pussy and just breaking the law instead.

>> No.5003386

"the school was shot up because the teachers didn't have guns"
-murrica

>> No.5003398

>>5003374
>handgun under your seat
sounds like a recipe for buttpain.

>> No.5003402

>>5003374
>>5003374
>What gets me is the whole "we need guns so we can fight back against the government if need be."
>>tfw when you need a law to say it's okay for you to be armed against the government instead of not being a pussy and just breaking the law instead.

Yes, but if guns are limited beforehand and not many people have guns, if you do want to break the law it's going to be hard to find a gun.

>> No.5003412

>>5003402
>Yes, but if guns are limited beforehand and not many people have guns, if you do want to break the law it's going to be hard to find a gun.
Moot point. I'm pretty sure Americans have never had difficulty getting guns in the history of never.

>>5003398
It's a common place in a car where people keep a handgun.

>> No.5003428

>>5003412
yeah so that when they get buttmad at someone who overtook them they reach under their buttseat and grab their buttgun.

>> No.5003432

>>5003412
How is that a moot point? Breaking the law or not makes no difference if there are no guns to be had. America has never had any difficulty because they haven't been limited in the manner you talk off.

>> No.5003439

>>5003402
One argument I heard years ago is particularly convincing, all the more so today: if the American government does turn on you, you're fucked anyway. Your prized assault rifle isn't going to cut it when you're getting hounded by drones.

NWO predictions aside, can't people just keep their guns in a big safe at the shooting range?

>> No.5003450
File: 20 KB, 225x225, flower power frog.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5003450

>>5003439
>if the American government does turn on you, you're fucked anyway
Sort of like how fucked Islamic militants in Iraq and communist militants in Vietnam were?

>> No.5003453

>>5003439
>NWO predictions aside, can't people just keep their guns in a big safe at the shooting range?

A large people possess firearms for self defense purposes, so the majority would be against that I'd imagine.

I used to think the same argument myself, but some anon brought up a valid point that that's an incredibly unlikely scenario; it is far more likely that a police state would come about. Police on every corner, that sort of thing. And in these conditions, firearms would hold a much higher significance. Aside from that, I don't believe the "It's highly unlikely, so why even bother" rhetoric for the most park.

>> No.5003454

honestly the midwest is just the mideast with less beards, more guns, slightly different religion and wal-marts instead of poppy fields.

>> No.5003463
File: 46 KB, 330x434, gun control in vichy france.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
5003463

>>5003412
In occupied France during WW2, being found with a single cartridge on you was enough to get you killed.
The resistance had a lot of trouble finding guns.

>> No.5003469

>>5003439
You can kill the people piloting the drones, or the politicians and generals who give the orders...
Obviously if they're all hiding somewhere safe then there's nothing you can do, but before that happens guns can protect you from bad treatment from officials with guns who'd go rogue slightly before shit hits the fan.

>> No.5003476

>>5003432
>>5003463
Alright, but why do we need fucking legislation to say it's okay to have a friggin' armory in your home? If you're afraid of an eventual police state, then stock up and shut up. This isn't occupied France; we have guns fucking everywhere.

We won't have trouble finding guns in a government takeover situation. Just find the nearest redneck home.