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/lit/ - Literature

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4992228 No.4992228 [Reply] [Original]

What is the most complex story (plot wise) ever written?

>> No.4992245

Horton Fucks a Who

>> No.4992319

>>4992228
Infinite Jest
other books may have more characters or story threads but IJ was a juggernaut overall.

>> No.4992321

>>4992228
War and Peace.

>> No.4992324

>>4992228
MGS2

>> No.4992328

>>4992324
convoluted =/= complex

>> No.4992333

>>4992228
A-A Song of Ice and Fire.

>> No.4992334
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4992334

Katawa Shoujo

>> No.4992335

>>4992319
>>4992321
>>4992333

Fucking retards do you even know what complex means?

>> No.4992339

>>4992328
You've just been trolled

>> No.4992344

>>4992319
Voting for this.

I mean, look at this fucking diagram: http://sampottsinc.com/ij/

>> No.4992347

>>4992335
adjective |ˌkɑmˈplɛks|
1 consisting of many different and connected parts: a complex network of water channels.
• not easy to analyze or understand; complicated or intricate: a complex personality | the situation is more complex than it appears.

>> No.4992353

>>4992344

What is the plot of Inifite Jest? Does it even have a plot? Since you cant open up for all those fucking characters in only a thousand pages.

>> No.4992357

guiding light

>> No.4992358

>>4992353
>asking for a plot summary of a book
>hasn't heard of Wikipedia or Google

>> No.4992361

>>4992328
MGS2's plot isn't convoluted at all, or was your simple mind too stupid to comprehend it? In fact, I'm sure MGS2's plot is more complex and intellectually stimulating than 99% of the books you've probably read, fool. You probably just think that because gaming's a new medium it lacks the artistic merit that books or music has. My only response is that I pity you. It must be tough being so simple and close-minded. Video games are the future, MGS2 is the logical progression of art as a whole, the only piece truly deserving of the title "post-modern". It puts Infinite Jest and Gravity's Rainbow to shame, I feel bad that you're just too stupid to understand.

>> No.4992362

>>4992353

The plot's is complex because it extends before and beyond the events of the book. Its hard to explain (especially without spoilers) unless you've read it. There's really not that many actually important characters but the whole thing becomes ultra complex due to the structuring.

>> No.4992363
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4992363

>>4992361

>> No.4992370

Some shoddy daytime TV garbage.

>> No.4992371

>>4992363
Sorry, kiddo. I know the truth is hard to deal with, maybe try playing a game or two and you'll learn a bit about art.

>> No.4992381

>>4992361
all MGS games fall apart to their plot twists. the games would be way better with way less of the convoluted shit hideo kojima throws all over it.

>> No.4992388
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4992388

>>4992361
Dipshits like you are why /lit/ will never accept games as an art form.

>> No.4992389

>>4992371
Go back to /v/ please

>> No.4992394

Finnegan's Wake.

>> No.4992396
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4992396

>>4992388
>>4992389
Inferior minds such as yours could never understand.

>> No.4992401

>>4992388
I think the fact that games are not fucking art is why /lit/ will never recognize games as an art form.

>> No.4992407

>>4992396
>ad hominem
>no real argument other than bluntly stating "video games are better than books"

>> No.4992423

>>4992401
Video games CAN be art

>> No.4992428

>>4992423
I like the emphasis on the can, because I've played less than a dozen games I'd consider art.

>> No.4992446

Romance of the Three Kingdoms

>> No.4992462

>>4992428
I've played one:

MGS2

>> No.4992466

>>4992407
>ad homonem
Is that some stupid way of calling me gay? So now you're resorting to name-calling? Real mature, book fans, real mature.

>> No.4992476

>>4992428
I think the Dark Souls games are pretty dang art

>> No.4992491

>>4992462
It's a great game though if you're not playing on EE then you can begone from my dominion.

>>4992476
eh, it's fun in the vein of any bethesda game in the form of optimization and freedom though the overblown grandosity of it all is very japanese

>> No.4992517

>>4992423
Vidya can't be art until it stops aping literature, cinematography, and classical plastic arts.

>> No.4992520

A Hundred Years of Solitude is probably pretty close.

>> No.4992538
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4992538

>>4992228
Finnegan’s Wake, no?
It's complex and convoluted

>> No.4992539

Gravity's Rainbow

>> No.4992546

>>4992538
Nobody ever counts this horseshit. That goes without saying as it goes without reading

>> No.4992556

>>4992423
Fuck off, neckbeard faggot.

>> No.4992558

>>4992428
>I've played less than a dozen games I'd consider art.

Uh-oh, we're treading the dreadful territory where

If I like it, it's art;
If I don't like it, it's not.

Please, do not step over the line.

>> No.4992561

I think people still talk about mythos a lot, to the point of unbelievable complexity. Complex usually means indeterminate, unable to define and hard to swallow because it makes no sense. Being understood is probably the first step to simplicity.

>> No.4992562

The Divine Comedy (all those references to rather obscure happenings of the time, as well as allegory)

The Brother Karamazov
Absalom, Absalom!f

>> No.4992566
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4992566

Maybeee Homeshit

>> No.4992570

>Finnegan's Wake
>'s
>'

STOP THIS

>> No.4992572

>>4992561
Complex means more intricate, you testicle.

>> No.4992573

>>4992491
I like the grandiosity, to be honest, but what's cool about it is the messages and themes throughout. It's this cool Buddhist-Pagan-Christian assemblage. Games where the Japs are fetishizing Western culture have got to be my favorite shit

>> No.4992575

>>4992572
Intricate is almost if not synonymous with density.

Listing a bunch of whodunits or plot twists doesn't exactly mean complex.

>> No.4992577

The Female Man by Joanna Russ is confusing because of the numerous narrators

Underworld by Don DeLillo - non linear story-line

The Recognitions by William Gaddis - I dunno, I forgave.

The script of the movie "Primer"

>> No.4992585

>>4992570
Who cares?

>> No.4993454

>>4992362
If something is worth reading more than once, there can be no spoilers for it.

>> No.4993482

>>4992573
Where the Souls games really shine, I think, is the fact they throw plot completely to the side. There are no cutscenes other than a huge monster stomping into the frame or whatever, none of the characters really matter. There's no stopping the gaming element to suddenly give you what's essentially an imported film or bit of prose. All of the evocative stuff is right there in the world - you draw it in slowly as you play and watch and learn. It's scary and sad and disturbing but it's all doled out to you in realtime as you slug you way through the world. The aesthetics and the gameplay and everything else are all intertwined into a sort of virtual poem that knows it never has to stop and be literal in order to get you to feel what it wants you to feel.

* Souls are basically the pinnacle of games as art, I reckon, along with Team Ico's work.

>> No.4993489

>>4992361
Nigga the entirely of MGS2 is just a remake of MGS1

>> No.4993491

>>4992546
It is ok if something goes over your head anon. Try singing it, it is what Joyce suggested.

>> No.4993498

>>4992573
>>4993482
>>4993489

So I'm guessing I'm not the only one taking a sabbatical from /v/ while the E3 hype train rolls through for the next week or so?

>> No.4993501

games that are art:
>MGS2
>Braid
>Shadow of the Colossus
>NES Legend of Zelda
>Tetris

I can see the argument for Dark Souls, but I think we should wait a few more years before we can determine that. I wouldn't say Dark Souls 2 is. When it's officially a product meant to push and be part of a franchise, it loses A LOT of qualities that I would consider as art (unless it's as aware as MGS2, but it's the only MGS game to have ever accomplish it)

>>4992577
Second for the script of Primer. It's the most complex time travel story I've ever seen, which was the point.

Maybe I'm just a time travel fag.

>> No.4993503

>>4993498
The Souls games are always pretty popular on /lit/.

>> No.4993504

>>4993498
Sabbatical? Nah, /lit/ is my main board. Honestly, I'm on /v/ right now because of E3.

That said, we should do a /lit/ approved list of vidya.

>> No.4993511

>>4993501
>When it's officially a product meant to push and be part of a franchise, it loses A LOT of qualities that I would consider as art (unless it's as aware as MGS2, but it's the only MGS game to have ever accomplish it)
I agree with this on a couple of notes. First, that something being produced as an enormous (hundreds of people, millions of dollars, etc) corporate product makes it tough to be art. Fumito Ueda has said he doesn't consider either Ico or SotC art because they were made in a corporate context. Game development is being made cheaper and more accessible all the time so maybe that'll change, but nothing so far from the 'indie' one-man-development scene has really convinced me, mainly because they're still 90% 'retro' platformers.

Secondly, though, yeah, Hideo somehow manages to internalise this conundrum so hard into his work that he gets around it. MGS is bizarrely commercial and auteur and cliche and subversive at the same time.

I don't know if I'd ever argue that MGS is literary, or, even, really, a particularly high quality cultural product (I surely would have at 14), but it sure as fuck is something that nothing else is, and I love it.

>> No.4993516

I'd say Tristram Shandy but I don't know if that actually qualifies as "plot". So for something that firmly does, I guess Invisible Man--or the Illuminatus! Trilogy, but that's sort of cheating.

>> No.4993518

>>4993504
I vote for Bastion

>> No.4993522

>>4993482
> they throw plot completely to the side
Do you mean "lore"? Because the plot itself is just as seamlessly intertwined as the rest of the game's elements
A guy wakes up and finds out he's got shit he's got to do, and then set out to figure out what that shit is, and do it.

>> No.4993523

Oh, Naked Lunch.

"But that's not a plot!" eh. the chapters in the middle can be read in any order, but the first chapter is definitely the beginning and the last chapter is definitely the end.

>> No.4993526

>>4993504
After visiting /lit/ for the past 3 months, I'm finding I enjoy discussion here far more than anywhere else.

>> No.4993527

>>4992361
The game explains the plot to you.What is there to get?
Games shouldn't try to be art they should focus on gameplay.

>> No.4993528

>>4993522
I guess I partly mean the fact the lore is woven into the world, and partly that narrative as we'd conceive of it in a book or film isn't really shoe-horned in. The narrative is entirely Game, which is usually used as an insult, but I think is it's strongest feature.

>> No.4993531

>>4993511
The other thing is the MGS series doesn't have its roots in gaming or literature- it has its roots in film. It's essentially a film experience recreated in vidya. The MG games were raw attempts at it, MGS for the PSX was the first REAL success of it. Sometimes art can just be an achievement in the medium, so that's certainly a solid argument for it. I wouldn't call it art though, it's still inspired though. It's pretty much a perfect blend of action/espionage films and video games.

Then MGS2, because MGS accomplished its goal, MGS2 became aware it was a game and (more importantly) a sequel. Those options redeemed it rather than condemned it. The only negative thing about it in an artistic aspect is that its presence condemned MGS3 to be a pure product.
>>4993518
I could see that. Do you want to actually make this list guys? Should we hijack the thread or make a separate one?

>> No.4993532
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4993532

>>4993504
>/lit/ approved list of vidya

>> No.4993537

>>4993504
I'm not a gamer, and I have nothing against vidya, but an attempt to put together a list would be... disastrous.

>> No.4993538

>>4993526
/lit/ and /co/ are my favorite places. /lit/ is pure discussion, unless we get into meme/elitist territory with Pynchon and DFW. That's not that bad though. It's the best place on the internet for book discussion, fuck reddit.

/co/ also has a lot of discussion, but also a more friendly atmosphere than /v/ or /pol/ or the like. Some accuse it of being a hugbox or Tumblr friendly, but those people are just bitter fools that don't realize some people actually have those kinds of opinions. Comic books are also more of a sharing medium for an image board, storytimes are a foundation for a friendly atmosphere.

>> No.4993539

>>4992423
They shouldn't try to.They should focus on gameplay and content like level design.Otherwise you end up stuff like Bioshock Infinite.
One of the worst thing about modern games is how much they want to be art and completely neglected gameplay which should be the most important part.

>> No.4993540

>>4993531
I think the issue of 'games as art' is complicated by the fact a game can contain individual works of art without being a work of art itself.

(The most obvious example is if you had a virtual recreation of the Mona Lisa in a FPS map. The Mona Lisa doesn't stop being art as a result. Likewise there's plenty of visual and aural and prose art that's as legitimate as any other produced for most any A-level videogame at this point. The overall package is a different question.)

>> No.4993541

>>4993531
You should accept you have four fucking boards and stop trying to ruing the god damn literature board because "you like it", you retarded fucking nigger.

>> No.4993543

>>4993538
I agree with you, have a nice day, anon.

On topic: Dune is pretty complex

>> No.4993545

>>4993539
Why is gameplay excluded from being art? If poetry and prose and sculpture and painting and theatre and lighting and singing and moving your fingers while holding an instrument in a certain way or an unmade bed can all be art, why can't stuff be art?

Even if something's shit, it can be art. Even if something's new, it can be art. In a hundred years the question of whether games can be art or not will be fucking ridiculous.

That said, yeah, 99.9999% of games are not art. But that's nothing to do with the categorical definition, it's because they're the equivalent of a Transformers movie. That doesn't mean all films aren't art, either.

>> No.4993547

>>4993523
complex=/=autistic

>> No.4993548

>>4993538
Have you actually read thomas pynchon though? B)

>> No.4993550

>>4993541
You're right, I shouldn't make another topic. /lit/ just has solid discussion and if I posted ANYTHING like that on /v/ I would just be made fun of and it would go into a shit-fest discussion. Take it as a compliment, I'm sorry.
>>4993540
I mean, all kinds of art can do that as well. People really forget film and music are also really rooted in other mediums and abuse other mediums in its parts to create a sum.

>> No.4993551

>>4993545
>why can't stuff be art?
the stuff that's in gaming, I meant to say, though honestly this still applies.

>> No.4993552

>>4993545
>>>/v/
>>>/lgbt/

>> No.4993553

>>4993548
I do love me some pinecone.

>> No.4993554

>>4993550
For sure, there are plenty of boilerplate films that are of dubious artistic quality or intention but include the work of dozens/hundreds of talented artists.

>> No.4993559

>>4993545
Give me some examples of art in vidya. It's summer and feeling like a kickback. What video games would you consider art?

>> No.4993562

>>4993539
Whoa whoa whoa. You're being misguided my friend. You're right, modern games ignore the natural rhetoric of games to try to tell a story. They try too hard to be something they're not and ultimately fail because of it. That being said, gameplay and level design are important artistic aspects to a game, and a game should keep in mind other aspects. Don't say games shouldn't be art, what's really going on is games are trying to be movies.
>>4993545
I agree with this guy. Games can be art. Chess is fucking art. Go is art. Monopoly is art. We can't just say games aren't art because "I want to have fun".

Which is why I mentioned Braid here
>>4993501
I would really recommend Blow's lectures on game design. They're fantastic. He understands where games are going. Braid really works on every level to convey its themes, especially level design and gameplay mechanics.

>> No.4993566
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4993566

hOmEsTeAkS, mOtHeRfUcKeR

>> No.4993567

>>4993559
Is concept art for a game art? Would it be art if it wasn't concept art for a game? Does it stop being art once it's rendered in 3D (or 2D)? Does it stop being art once someone starts wiggling a stick to move around a little dude inside of it? Where's the line? Why wouldn't it be art?

>> No.4993573

>>4993547
His stories were from unconscious impressions of various encounters and lives and social interactions he lived around the world.

>> No.4993575

>>4992566
Even the homestuck general thread will agree that the story is now nothing but bullshit drama.

>> No.4993576

>>4993567
I'd consider concept art, well, art, because most of it won't even end up in the game, these days. In that way, it can't be diluted.

>> No.4993580

>>4993576
How's it diluted? When it's made into polygons? There's no such thing as 3D art?

I agree that most games aren't art - and I disagree that no games are art, but it's a valid place to argue from, whatever - but to say that the stuff you look at and listen to in games isn't art is just silly. At the very least games are packages of discrete pieces of art.

>> No.4993591

>>4993559
Not that anon, but here are some solid ones:
Jason Rohrer:
>Passage
>Gravitation
I haven't played his other stuff, but he's really great. Those two are really short and free, you might find Passage too simple and pretentious. That's a fine and somewhat valid criticism. Gravitation I would argue transcends that and isn't very pretentious at all. It tells a great story purely through visuals and mechanics.

Check out Team Meat's The Basement Collection, it's full of their old flash games from Newgrounds. Some are really fun and touching. Definitely inventive and inspired. Would recommend Timefukc and Aether especially.

Dwarf Fortress is just a fascinating experience that ultimately is art on the merits of pure gameplay. It's not only the computer generated levels and in depth game mechanics, but dat computer generated lore and basic ASCII visuals yo.

Hotline Miami is also great.

There's a bunch more independent stuff. It's a bit harder to actually say artistic games when they're produced by huge companies. My personal favorite games made by big companies are a lot of old school nintendo and capcom games, I would argue Mega Man 9 transcends its franchise into art, I like Ghosts and Goblins (and Super Ghouls and Ghosts). Street Fighter 2 Turbo is a great game to play between two equally-skilled people. Same with Third Strike. I love Super Metroid and the original Legend of Zelda. Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening are also fantastic.

I dunno, you'd really have to tell me what you're in the mood for.

>> No.4993592

>>4993580
I've seen so much concept art, and been so impressed with these vistas and locales, and sometimes even their creatures, and then been so disappointed when they were brought to life in 3d. To me, it just seems like a game can never deliver on their beautiful concepts, and I don't think the final products are often artful.

For a related parallel, look at E3 footage of a game, and then their final release build, if it's a AAA title. A game like Watch Dogs comes to mind. The E3 presentation was beautiful, the city, the action, everything. And somewhere along the way, it was aborted.

>> No.4993594

>>4993592
Really good examples of previews and concept art that was better than the product are Dead Island and Epic Mickey.

I cannot tell you the artistic potential of Mickey Mouse walking through a desolate wasteland of Mickey Mouse merchandise.

>> No.4993595

>>4993592
Watch_Dogs is the perfect example of the medium being perverted by corporate development processes, though.

If you want the most obvious example of a 3D environment managing to be art - Shadow of the Colossus, like everyone else will say. (I think Ico might achieve even more purely visually, but SotC manages to tie the interactivity into everything else that makes it much more of a uniquely videogame form of expression than Ico ever really managed. Though Ico alone is an impressive example of gameplay-based art in that Ico and Yorda's relationship is almost entirely developed through gameplay and their physical relationship and reliance on one-another since they can't communicate verbally.)

>> No.4993598

>>4993595
How does everyone feel about the MOTHER series?

>> No.4993608

>>4993598
Everyone loves the shit out of it but I never played it cause it's all in frigging chinese

>> No.4993611

>>4993608
>whaaaaa

No it's not. MOTHER 1 and 2 have official translations. MOTHER 3 has a faithful fan translation.

>> No.4993613

>>4993594
I was so ready for a dystopian Disney universe, and was oh so disappointed with the mottled colors and neutered themes.
>>4993595
Well yes, that was what I was getting at, that somewhere along the way, something happened (whether that be the corporate game-making process, or simple laziness) to make these concepts less poignant, less impactful, and to me, not art. Agree with you on SotC.

>> No.4993615

>>4993611
Hold my dick, m8, emulators are for scrot-emulators

>> No.4993616

Absalom, Absalom had a pretty complicated plot

>> No.4993619

>>4993562
Blow's lectures on game design? Isn't this the guy who started his GDC lecture by just showing a giant 3D fractal to his audience for 5 minutes?

>He understands where games are going

Games are going in the direction of what is successful. DOTA clones and shitty smartphone games are successful. Plot and themes are becoming so unimportant it's not even funny.

/v/ is like a collective punching bag for companies dealing out disappointment because nobody gives a fuck about old hardcore neckbeards anymore, especially not the ones who remember a time when games were so primitive that they actually needed decent writing.

>> No.4993636

Probably Naruto or something. That shit has a million characters and they all get new powers and shit every time we see them.

>> No.4993642

>>4993619
>trying to make fun of what I said by saying exactly what Blow is saying

I'm not even mad, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Blow has talked about blockbuster games extensively. He has compared WoW to Mcdonald's with full sincerity. MMOs, F2Ps, and phone games are designed to be addictive and unhealthy. He has made comments and critiques about story-telling in games ignoring player agency and pretending like its good gameplay design (namely, Half-Life 2 Bioshock and GTAIV)

>> No.4993646

>>4993636
>Mentioning Naruto when DBZ is almost the same, but with time travel
I even like Naruto, but they haven't gone and invented time travel so far

>> No.4993648

>>4992228
>>4993646
Now that we're opening up this to /a/, I'd like to open it up to /co/ and say the DC universe has some really convoluted bullshit. If you take Superman's story since the beginning and tried to map it all out, it would be an act of bold insanity.

>> No.4993716

>>4993636
Only Naruto matters, though, so it's not complex at all.

>>4993648
The Big Two's system is utter bullshit tellyouwhat.

>> No.4993731

The Manuscript found in Saragossa

>> No.4993733

>>4993716
Marvel's is really fucked up only in the sense of retroactive molding. It's not even retconning, it's moreso just wanting to adopt from the MCU.

Black Nick Fury is the best example. 616 has a white Nick Fury, Ultimate has a black Nick Fury. The Marvel movie universe decides on Samuel L Jackson (the model for the Ultimate universe). 616 then creates an entirely new nick fury and proceeds to push the original Nick Fury out of the picture. They literally just killed OG Nick Fury about two weeks ago. Bucky was the one that did it.

>> No.4993741
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4993741

>>4993559
Go play Spec Ops The Line. Its like someone took Heart of Darkness and threw it in a blender with Black Hawk Down and All Quiet on the Western Front, honestly one of the most moving games I've played.

>> No.4993742

>>4992361

"never ever"

>> No.4993747

>>4993741
Really? To me it was

>generic shooter
>find a button, press it
>torch some refugees with phosphor, walk among their charred bodies, some still moving
>cliche as fuck maria with jesus imitation
>back to generic shooter

>> No.4993751

>>4993648
If you took the DC or Marvel canon as stories of their own, yes they would be convoluted. But they are retconned/remade/reiterated/started over so many times that it's better to see them as different stories.

>> No.4993768

>>4993751
Oh of course it's best to see them as all separate stories, but technically everything is still canon in some sordid way. Retcons and reboots are always half baked "yeah this no longer happened but hint hint it either will again or there's something still there."

Like with Superman Prime, Earth-1 Supes, and Alexander Luthor post-crisis (probably the biggest and most clearly defined reboot comics has ever had).

>> No.4993790

>>4993747
Thats kind of the point
The trailer was pretty much interchangeable with a CoD trailer, you start the beginning fighting thickly accented brown people, and you run through the game blowing peoples heads off and beating them into the ground with the butt of your rifle.

The mortar scene is meant as the big turning point, one interesting thing I noticed was as you continue launching them, Walkers face becomes more visible in the screens reflection. If you listen to some of the troops talk when they're not aware of you, they'll mention how beautiful the views are, how they still think they're fighting to save those people, etc. Anything to show they're still humans.All the while Walker's portrayal goes from GI Joe American Hero, to a broken, very real soldier suffering from the trauma that that type of environment exerts upon a person.

The main theme behind the game is that War is hell for all, not a concept to glorify like the current industry does.

>> No.4993806

>>4993642
That's good. These points are obvious to me but they can never receive enough scathing criticism.

When you said "he knows where games are going" it rather sounded like him doing some wise old sage schtick about him leading the way to enlightenment for games, rather than pointing out what is going wrong.

I don't think sagely showmanship should be necessary. It just turns people away.

>> No.4993850

>>4992228
Roberto Bolaño's 2666, because he makes so you have to piece the book together yourself, to investigate what's the binding force for each one and why they are connected. Open for all, I should say.

>> No.4993863

>>4993806
Trust me, they're not obvious to a lot of people.

People thought Blow was joking when he said WoW was like fast food. This was near the height of WoW, so saying anything bad about it was sacrilege.

>> No.4995218

>>4992423
I agree with this.

I condisder Patapon and Okami to be artistic games. Heck, any decent JRPG / VN could classify as, but I've yet to see one.