/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.4980698]

Why do fantasy authors make up entirely new lands, languages, and histories for their stories instead of using an obscure segment of real world history which most readers have never even heard of?

For example, why make up a new language for your story instead of using some obscure language like Navaho, Aramaic, Mande, etc?

It's a lot of wasted effort, and the result is bound to be cliched and shallow compared to a rich and unpredictable real world history of some ancient civilization. With the internet, researching even the most obscure of subjects is easy. Even if the author doesn't master the subject and takes creative license, the vast majority of readers won't have a clue. They already run into the problem of paling knowledge compared to a master in any given area, such as swordplay, economics, or biology. This would improve the worldbuilding of the novel by giving it more realistic qualities and depth than an author alone could dream up, and would make the creative process easier for no longer must the author pull all this out of his ass and create a seemingly-viable language from scrap. This would allow him to put his efforts towards what matters--the substance. And if you want to throw dragons in, why not? A realistic land only with dragons can not be less believable than a shallow cobbled-together land with dragons.

And hey, the author and audience might even learn something.

[Anonymous No.4980705]

And yes, I am aware of the existence of historical fiction. However, this is a niche sub-genre compared to the whole of fantasy.

[Anonymous No.4980721]

I learned from Gene Wolfe that you dont need to make up autistic sounding names to get across the idea of an alien culture, just using simpler words in different contexts can do the trick.

Though I do heavily agree that studing history is essential to anyone interested in crafting a good setting.

[Anonymous No.4980722]

>>4980698
Because history autists will only care about how the author misused something from history.

[Anonymous No.4980727]

>>4980698

>With the internet, researching even the most obscure of subjects is easy

I know this may be difficult to believe, but the internet wasn't always around. People stated writing before it, which formed expectations for the genre, and now most people write to fit those expectations.

[Anonymous No.4980735]

>>4980698
Tolkien did this, essentially. He re-purposed the Welsh and Finnish languages for his Elves. Rohan was a pasta of Anglo-Saxon culture. His whole inspiration for the mythos was the Prose Edda, an Icelandic summary of Norse legend. The names of the twelve dwarves of The Hobbit and Gandalf are from a fragment of the Elder Edda.

All of this lends Tolkien's work a great deal of authenticity. For further reading look at Tolkien: Author of the Century by Tom Shippey.

The problem is that almost all fantasy since Tolkien has tried to copy Tolkien's style without understanding his sources and where he got his substance: actual, true-to-life history and mythology.

I like your idea of new fantasy works/mythos building off other mythologies and cultures from history, but the genre is so stuck in Tolkien-land it probably won't happen for a good while.

[Anonymous No.4980742]

>Why do inexperienced authors make common mistakes about writing fantasy

DURR DURR WHO KNOWS OP. Also your idea would be just as unoriginal because you're just taking an already existing thing instead of making your own.

[Anonymous No.4980744]

>>4980727

The internet has been widespread since 1995, functional as we know it since ~2000. Before that, they had these big things called libraries. If your library didn't have the book you wanted, they even could bring in a the book from an associated library. Amazing?

For all the books written in this millennium, of which I remind you it is 2014, what excuse have they?

>>4980722

We already get the autists on every other subject, from economics to how to put together a suit of armor, how to treat horses, what season X herb grows in, what time phases of the moon rise, etc. There will always be nitpicking autists.

>>4980721
>Though I do heavily agree that studing history is essential to anyone interested in crafting a good setting.

Yes. Otherwise you get bullshit like giant cities with no recognizable source of food and water, or nonsensical battle strategies.

[Anonymous No.4980747]

>>4980742
Not the OP, but as my post about Tolkien >>4980735 states, the foundation of fantasy is pre-existing histories and mythologies. So you are wrong in ridiculing fantasy for being, "unoriginal."

[Anonymous No.4980752]

>>4980742
>Also your idea would be just as unoriginal because you're just taking an already existing thing instead of making your own.

>borrowing from history means you cannot be creative and original

Okay, I guess you only write about THIS NEW AMAZO TECHNOLOGY holy shit laser dinosaurs AND flying dragonfly cars. Now THAT'S original...

Do you even know what stories are about?

[Anonymous No.4980753]

>>4980744

By 1995 the high fantasy genre was very well established. Which is why new authors are writing to the genre. That's how genres work. Someone reads Wheel of Time and decides to write something similar.

[Anonymous No.4980756]

But good fantasy authors do both you dense fucking cunt, read Gene Wolfe's Latro in the Mist or Robert E. Howard's El Borak short stories

[Anonymous No.4980769]

>>4980747
>>4980752
I know that all works borrow from everything else, real or fictional, especially the fantasy genre. My point was that OP saying that using a real language or location would be more original than coming up with your own makes no sense, because 1, fantasy is just a recycling of tropes, as is most genre fiction, but also that taking stuff from the real world (i.e. using an existing language instead of your own, or an existing region instead of making your own) doesn't make it more creative.

[Anonymous No.4980798]

>>4980698
>A realistic land only with dragons can not be less believable than a shallow cobbled-together land with dragons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inne_pie%C5%9Bni

[Anonymous No.4980800]

>>4980769
>using a real language or location would be more original than coming up with your own

Learn to read, you illiterate mouthbreather. I didn't say more original, I said it would give a more realistic depth and be more efficient as to the writing process.

Originality is a lie; there is only execution. Not once have I lauded originality for its own sake. My concern is a solid story.

> fantasy is just a recycling of tropes

Disregarding that it isn't, it doesn't have to be in any case. Shit authors regurgitate, yes, but that doesn't mean the problem is with fantasy as a genre. Think. People enjoy reading it. It's the oldest genre existent. We still read fantasies written a thousand years ago. Hurr durr /lit/ told me fantasy is bad, let me recycle that...

>doesn't make it more creative.

Again, I said more solid and more efficient. I never mentioned more creative. Learn2argue.

[Anonymous No.4980802]

Because, you know, that's the whole point of fantasy.

[Anonymous No.4980813]

>>4980798

English translation available?

[Anonymous No.4980820]

>>4980813

The time you waste shitposting on 4chan would easily teach you Polish.

[Anonymous No.4980831]

>>4980820

>implying I'd ever want to speak polish
>learning a language to read one book is practical
>not knowing conservation of willpower theory

I got better shit to learn and study. Also, your point cannot be communicated by referencing an unreadable book with no further explanation. I know that hand on your cock feels good, but it doesn't help your argument. No idea what you could mean to say.

[Anonymous No.4980837]

>>4980831

You can also use Polish to read Solaris.

That's two books, fucker. What now?

[Anonymous No.4980853]

>>4980800
>Realistic depth
Fucking how? You're still throwing in dragons and magic, you're just taking ancient languages and places that really exist and using them as a stage for the nonexistent elements. If anything, it's a hell of a lot less realistic for the reader, because not only do you have to deal with suspension of disbelief in regards to all of the elements of fantasy, you also have to expect me to go with it happening on the same planet I live on, instead of some alternate universe and planet in which anything could be happening.

>efficient
And? Yes, it's more 'efficient' to disregard the more time consuming aspects of writing fantasy by simply taking existing languages, locations, and cultures. What even is your point? Yes, creating your own systems takes time and is difficult, and bad authors will get caught up on it and end up with their story lacking depth. How does this mean that they should all just start using existing civilizations instead?

Also if you seriously think that fantasy isn't a recycling of tropes then you're misguided. And don't try to play me off as hating fantasy either, because I don't, it's one of my favorite genres. I simply recognize that it, and all literature really, is just playing with existing ideas and rearranging them, and there's nothing wrong with that. I like it so much because I enjoy the staple tropes in most recent fantasy, i.e. a medieval inspired setting.

Seriously try a little less ad hominem and think a bit more about your entire argument because it's just pretentious bullshit that contradicts itself.

[Anonymous No.4980862]

>>4980698
Maybe they enjoy doing it. just a wild thought.

[Anonymous No.4980878]

>>4980698
I'm wondering why fantasy authors feel the need to world-build to such a level to begin with. If it isn't relevant then why bother?

[Anonymous No.4980933]

>>4980831

Tolkien learned Finnish just to read the Kalevala.

[Anonymous No.4980942]

>>4980698
takes a ton more research to do what you're suggesting, as opposed to just pulling it out of your ass. And anyway, almost every obscure civilization was basically boreville. If it wasn't boreville, it wouldn't be obscure!

[Anonymous No.4980952]

>>4980933
>a person who utterly loved learning new languages learned one to read a kickass mythological work, which by the way he needed for his lifelong literary work; you should therefore learn a new language to read 1 (one) obscure book which might not even be that great.