Paradise Lost: How stupid am I?

[Anonymous No.4902469]

Started reading Paradise Lost recently, and just finished Book II. It's pretty hard for me to read, unless I do it aloud, in which case I breeze through it. Is this common? Also, how often does Milton refer to other ancient myths and borrow from Dante? So far it seems like it's all he ever does. Also, what's with him mentioning other Gods wily-nily?

General discussion too why not

[Anonymous No.4902499]

>>4902469
Also, how often does Milton refer to other ancient myths and borrow from Dante?

Wonder why people say Start with the greeks? On a side note, have you read the bible?

[Anonymous No.4902536]

Why would you even read that garbage

[Raphael M.D./Ph.D !RjtLY8K3lY No.4902539]

Paradise Lost is pretty tough. When you're reading it, you have to realize you're not reading a book by a man with a normal amount of facts in his head. Milton was one of the most well read nerds of his time.

He went to college (which was meant to prepare you for the church), graduated, then said screw it I'm just going to go home and read all day. He knew Ancient Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and I want to say Italian. So he's going to make use of all that knowledge and constantly reference other things.

>Also, what's with him mentioning other Gods wily-nily?
It mentions in book 2 I think, that the names of all the Fallen Angels, aren't their actual names. They're the names given to them by humans (in the future). So that's where you get the names like Moloch and Belial. If you want to get more of an idea how Milton views this kind of thing, I recommend reading "On Christ's Nativity." and then crying because you realize he wrote it when he was 16 or 17.

[Raphael M.D./Ph.D !RjtLY8K3lY No.4902557]

>>4902539
Whoops, meant On the Morning of Christ's Nativity. It's also known as the Nativity Ode.

[Anonymous No.4902582]

>>4902557
Which was composed in '29, when Milton was 21. An extraordinary achievement, nonetheless.

Also, I'd argue that Milton was the most erudite man living in England at the time, partially on account of his post as Parliament's Latin secretary, and of speculation from his contemporaries that he read literally every book available in western europe.

[Anonymous No.4902591]

>>4902499
Yes
>>4902539
Thanks for the post. I understand the parts about Moloch and Belial, as they were "heathen" Gods contemporaneous to the Israelites, and are mentioned in the Bible. The part starting from line 508 in book two, starting "The Ionian Gods" tripped me up, because these aren't described quite a negatively, but going over them again, it does seem more clear that Milton thought of these deities as apostate angels.

Still, what's with Chaos and Night? They seem to both be very powerful beings, and both are older than God. Doesn't this go against Church Dogma, or was it very different at the time?

[Anonymous No.4902610]

>>4902582
He certainly seems to have done so, but the continuous smilies for almost every action slows down the pace of the story and seems more showy than anything. I know he was trying to emulate the style of ancient epic poems, but doesn't he stop himself from doing this by always referring to them? I will freely admit I have read none of these ancient epics, but still, they must have had made up new stories rather than referring to old ones when going off into extended explanations and metaphors of small incidences.

All of the myths that Milton does refer to haven't yet happened in the deigesis, so it is quite jarring jumping around times and tenses too.

[Anonymous No.4902619]

>>4902469
He's using grammar that's torqued by the meter and his desire to imitate Latin. When you're reading out loud, you're processing the language more times (reading plus articulating plus hearing yourself reading,) and you're also engaging all the machinery you use to sort out grammatical weirdness in conversation.
He also composed it when he was blind, which might make the writing tend towards being better understood by the ear than the eye.
Also >>4902539 is right. He was extremely learned.

[Anonymous No.4902648]

>>4902591
>starting "The Ionian Gods" tripped me up

One of the things you have to remember about Milton is that he was massively learned in Classical texts; however, he was seeking to create a Christian epic that would be even better than Homer, Virgil etc... So, he appreciates the Ionian gods, but he also has to distance himself from them because he is so deeply Christian.

>Doesn't this go against Church Dogma

There's several points where Milton goes against mainstream Christian dogma; the one I know best is within regards to the theology of the Trinity.

These lectures are pretty good if you're interested in Milton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H62G9yIN5Wk

[Anonymous No.4902651]

>>4902539
>most well read nerds of his time
Of all time.

>He knew Ancient Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and I want to say Italian
Yes to Italian, and French and German and Dutch.

He literally read everything that was available to be read and remembered an unbelievable amount of it. Recall that PL, with its incredible density, complexity and breadth of reference and allusion, was dictated by Milton after he went blind. It is utterly miraculous.

[Anonymous No.4902679]

>>4902651
Miraculous enough that we could consider it a candidate for Bible canon?
Considering how much it's influenced Christians' ideas about their religion, it wouldn't be a stretch to call it divinely inspired.

[Raphael M.D./Ph.D !RjtLY8K3lY No.4902751]

>>4902648
>There's several points where Milton goes against mainstream Christian dogma

I think what's really interesting are his views on determinism. He treads this weird line between Calvinism and free choice by having God say something along the lines of, he gives all of his creatures the complete ability to overcome temptation but knows in each instance ahead of time that they'll falter.

It keeps God completely blameless in that he doesn't cause bad, nor cause people to fall. He even gives people the capability to overcome every temptation, yet he knows everything that will happen and knows that despite their capability, they won't overcome temptation.

Then when he God sends Raphael into the garden, it isn't to warn him that Satan will tempt him and Eve it is to "render Man inexcusable." Which is just weird and interesting and I don't know. It's like God is setting them up to fall so that they'll have to be saved by him/Jesus and then have no reason not to give him praise. that narcissistic asshole.

[Raphael M.D./Ph.D !RjtLY8K3lY No.4902755]

>>4902751
>it isn't to warn him that Satan will tempt him and Eve

Him, being Adam here.

[Anonymous No.4902790]

Great thread, keep discussing so I can read.

[Anonymous No.4902834]

does obsessing over how well read and learned a person is make you feel better for not getting a pretty straight-forward poem?

[Anonymous No.4903212]

>>4902679
I wouldn't say so. It contradicts the bible quite heavily, and many churches don't belive in satan as a ruler of hell. It's much too literal in it's language too, and besides what body decides cannon these days?