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/lit/ - Literature

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4892060 No.4892060[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Do you agree that Sade is the culmination of Enlightenment thinking?

>> No.4892089

No.

I happen to believe he was a mediocre writer and thinker.

His philosophy, to the extent one actually exists, is a juvenile, unsophisticated and simplistic defense of fatalism, selfishness and hedonism; his books are immensely boring. The smut is especially dull - even when compared with stuff from the same era.

I appreciate Sade for his willingness to be a provocateur and challenging the statutory conventions of acceptable speech (something that contemporary Europe, with all the hate laws, sorely needs again), but he doesn't offer much beyond that.

>> No.4892093

>>4892089
>No.
>I happen to believe he was a mediocre writer and thinker.
>His philosophy, to the extent one actually exists, is a juvenile, unsophisticated and simplistic defense of fatalism, selfishness and hedonism; his books are immensely boring. The smut is especially dull - even when compared with stuff from the same era.
>I appreciate Sade for his willingness to be a provocateur and challenging the statutory conventions of acceptable speech (something that contemporary Europe, with all the hate laws, sorely needs again), but he doesn't offer much beyond that.
into the trash. jpg

>> No.4892094

>>4892089
I happen to believe you're a mediocre critic and reader. You didn't get it; at all.

>> No.4892135

>>4892094

What didn't I get exactly?

I'm familiar with the critical theory interpretations of Sade but has anyone who's actually read the guy's books believes there's anything remotely close to a coherent philosophical thinking on them? And to call it the pinnacle of enlightenment? After a few books of Sade, one's put in a cleft stick trying to harmonize Sade and Enlightment thought.

C'mon, it's just mediocre literature. I've been reading quite a few of erotic literature classics and it's quite striking how uninspired Sade's work is compared with other, less well-known, "forbidden writers".

>> No.4892144

>>4892135
>What didn't I get exactly?
>I'm familiar with the critical theory interpretations of Sade but has anyone who's actually read the guy's books believes there's anything remotely close to a coherent philosophical thinking on them? And to call it the pinnacle of enlightenment? After a few books of Sade, one's put in a cleft stick trying to harmonize Sade and Enlightment thought.
>C'mon, it's just mediocre literature. I've been reading quite a few of erotic literature classics and it's quite striking how uninspired Sade's work is compared with other, less well-known, "forbidden writers".
into the trash

>> No.4892147

>>4892135

Holy shit please don't tell me you're a humanities major.

>> No.4892169

>>4892135
>And to call it the pinnacle of enlightenment?
OP here, the reason I called him the culmination of Enlightenment thinking is because he takes its tendencies to the extreme and is one of the few who is willing to take out the leftovers of Christian morality and superstitions. His consistency is what makes him interesting.

>> No.4892196

>>4892135
>I've been reading quite a few of erotic literature classics and it's quite striking how uninspired Sade's work is compared with other, less well-known, "forbidden writers".
Such as?

By the way, which books by Sade have you read?

>> No.4893078

the height of enlightenment is returning to traditionalism instead of becoming a nihilist

>> No.4893118

>>4892060
Yes, but the Enlightenment is kind of shitty.

>> No.4893410

de Sade is a rendezvous with unbridled nature. This doesn't appear to me to be the height of Enlightenment.

>> No.4893418

I don't have the book on me right now, but I remember Peter Marshall's analysis of De Sade on Demanding the Impossible associating his writings, specially Salo, as a form of critic of enlightenment liberalism.

Now, I haven't read anything by him and hardly will in the near future, but does it make any sense?

>> No.4894238

>>4893418
You mean 120 Days right when you say Salo?

I guess you could say that the libertinism in his works could be seen to show what happens when you take enlightenment thinking to its extreme, but Sade actually was a libertine who buggered men and abused hookers and paid them to shit on the crucifix and such. So my guess is that's it's more of an extreme exaggeration of shit he likes and the philosophical justifications for it.

I think Sade was actually quite in favour of enlightenment liberalism, when you go by the pamphlet smuggled into Philosophy in the Bedroom and the way he acted after the revolution.

>> No.4894541

The culmination of enlightenment thinking was the rediscovery of the Greek works.

>> No.4894567

>>4894541
so romanticism?

>> No.4894602

>>4894238


>paid them to shit on the crucifix

so hardcore

>>4893418
120 was his way to sublimate his perversions. They didnt have galges , or /gif in thos times.

>> No.4894614

No. The philosophical justification he uses for libertinism is that impulses are "natural." His argument is that we have no reason to deny our more perverse impulses because nature has caused us to have them, which means we should accept them as "good." The problem with this reasoning is that it only makes sense if you adopt a teleological view that says everything that is natural is part of the right order and workings of the universe. I see no reason to accept that, so I do not.

This sort of thinking has nothing to do with the enlightenment per se.

>> No.4894619

>>4894567
No, the Enlightenment celebrated the classics. Romanticism is all about turning your back on rational thought and celebrating Gothic mediaevalism emotional unknowns.

>> No.4894629

>>4894614
But he considers everything as natural and therefore everything as justified and shows how there is no reason to believe that certain behaviour is less justified than other behaviour. Which is pretty reasonable.

>> No.4894647

>>4894629
Why would you assume that everything natural is good? Even if if all impulses are natural that does not mean that they are good. That seems like a profoundly silly idea.

There is a deeper problem however. What if my heart is divided and I want to do a thing and am repulsed by it at the same time?

>> No.4894652

No, but he is the nearest thing to a shock-site they had in the 18th century.

>> No.4894667

>>4892094
Stop using semicolons incorrectly.

>> No.4894670

>>4894647
>Why would you assume that everything natural is good? Even if if all impulses are natural that does not mean that they are good. That seems like a profoundly silly idea.
I see it mostly as a rhetorical device to do away with conventional morality altogether. It empowers people to embrace their urges and desires rather than feel repulsed by them. "It's sanctified by Nature" is a bit of an encouragement rather than the apathy of "it doesn't matter." Sade uses other tricks like cultural relativistic arguments, but all of his rhetoric seems to be meant to be emancipatory, not so much a concise system. Which would be silly to expect from dialogues between characters in the first place. What he does is mostly showcase people who have freed themselves from the limitations of conventional morality.

>There is a deeper problem however. What if my heart is divided and I want to do a thing and am repulsed by it at the same time?
Sade would probably say that your being repulsed is merely a matter of conditioning.

>> No.4894689

If what you are implying is that Enlightenment thinking ends in debauchery and wretched egotism then yes, he is the pinnacle of Enlightenment thinking.

>> No.4894704

>>4894619
Nah, the Enlightenment didn't have much to do with the Classics; that was the Renaissance. And Romanticism wasn't fuelled by Medievalism at all; it was actually fuelled by opium and a vague spiritualism / occultism.

>> No.4894710

yeh

>> No.4894713

>>4894710
i mean yeh in the sense that the enlightenment was quite bad and de sade was also quite bad

>> No.4894723

>>4894670
>. It empowers people to embrace their urges and desires rather than feel repulsed by them. "It's sanctified by Nature" is a bit of an encouragement rather than the apathy of "it doesn't matter."


I wouldn't accept that premise either, but you are wrong to think he is speaking metaphysically. This sort of teleological thinking was common in his day.

>> No.4894854

>>4894667
That was a pretty atrocious use of the semicolon.

>> No.4894858

He explored sex. Good for him.

>> No.4895046

>>4892089
>I appreciate Sade for his willingness to be a provocateur and challenging the statutory conventions of acceptable speech (something that contemporary Europe, with all the hate laws, sorely needs again), but he doesn't offer much beyond that.
But that itself is fucking brilliant.
I'm sick of this moralistic shit that is pushed in most novels I read.

>> No.4895052

>>4894614
You're bliss is the greatest good, though.

>> No.4895056

>>4895052
I meant to use you're, bitch.

>> No.4895062
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4895062

Another question: Who would you consider Sade's rightful heir in European literature?

>> No.4895210 [DELETED] 
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4895210

Sade was a pervert who had sex for pleasure. He turned it into selfish, uncaring and ultimately destructive form of masturbation, instead of the almost sacred communion between two people it has the potential to be. He embodies many of the aspects of modern sexuality, and, indeed, modern society which I loathe from the bottom of my heart. That, I think, is all there is to say about him.

>> No.4895216
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4895216

Sade was a pervert who had sex for pleasure. He turned it into a selfish, uncaring and ultimately destructive form of masturbation, instead of the almost sacred communion between two people it has the potential to be. He embodies many of the aspects of modern sexuality, and, indeed, modern society which I loathe from the bottom of my heart. That, I think, is all there is to say about him.

>> No.4895228

>>4895216
cunt had a sense ay humour though aye

>> No.4895234

>>4895216
Imagine I've found the ideal reaction face image of Pan laughing at you uproariously, with the accompanying text ">MFW" followed by "you complete cretin".

>> No.4895238

>>4895216
*tips chasity belt*

>> No.4895296
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4895296

>>4895216
>He embodies many of the aspects of modern sexuality, and, indeed, modern society which I loathe from the bottom of my heart.

>> No.4895305

>>4892135
What other forbidden writers?

Did any of them write a scene where a guy slams his dick into a girl's asshole and breaks the communion wafer into bits while jamming it inside her?

>> No.4895315

>>4892089
>his books are immensely boring
Oh, come now. Misfortunes of Virtue was immensely readable.

>> No.4895396
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4895396

>>4895238
You're quite wrong in your implication.

>>4895234
It saddens me to imagine an individual who not only takes pride in being a solipsistic hedonist, but who also viciously attacks others for expressing different ideals. You were not meant to live as a brute.

>> No.4895440

>people think his sexual experiences were about pleasures

lol, kids

>> No.4895454

>>4895440
As I understand it, they were also about his volonté de savoir. Is that what you mean?

>> No.4895456

>>4895216

That's like, your opinion mang.

Mine is: he enforced in the end, the same values he claimed to dismiss, by making out of it something exceptional.

If he was really free, he would just do as he pleased, without considering what anybody else liked or wanted, and without even conceiving the term "perversion" or "corruption".

In his game, he was the same kind of slave, as the ones he claimed to pervert.

His ego, prevented him from realizing it, alas, ignorance is bliss, or so they say.

>> No.4895606

>>4895456
he stood in the "lion" transformation of the spirit.

>> No.4896188

>>4895046
>Why won't my dad accept that i am trans poly centaur pony!
>SOCIETY SHOULD ACCOMMODATE MY WANTS! EVEN IF THEY ARE A WASTE!

Strick and rigid moral codes were designed to uplift civilizations and create order so that all people of all classes could avoid acting like children and dragging society down.

I get that a theraputic society is great and helpful, but its a symptom of the ideology of modern society. There is a root cause to fix, not a symptom to treat. Capitalism fuel by desires is what drivers that sickness in society.

People don't become mentally ill for no reason at all. There are millions of external factors enacting upon them. The solution is to stop these factors from crushing people via capitalist demand and instead retreat to traditionalisms.

Humanity has just gotten pretty tools and learned methods to use the environment and wield a language. Our progress as a species is regressive. We're killing ourselves to save ourselves.

It is similar to debt spending with little to no hope of repaying the debts. Eventually the bubble pops. Everything points to society on the verge of collapse. What we are doing is not sustainable and is constantly on the verge of not only destroying our planet, but our very humanity and reason.

We aren't reasoning anymore, we're just saying here take this, do that, say this and it'll all be better.

>> No.4896236

>>4892089
Enlightenment mostly produced mediocre writers, even Voltaire is pretty much mediocre in his "best" works, his thinking is disorganized and shallow

>> No.4896293

>>4895606
No, he actually went through the lizard phase. It seems that you didn't understand Nieztche at all, go back to school mang.

To all fuckers here that have no clue what they're talking about... Sade is basically a personification of the hegerochromism of his era. Justine for example, hightlights the intense dichotomism between the "libertine" and the "thinker".

And better, at the peak of his writing career, he was able to exalt the sexual modernism of his time, exuring a new line of patterns deeply woven into his monarchic pre-philosophy. We could also say the the "langue au chat" present in most of his works are an extremely feature not present in other "forbidden authors". Basically, he could write about one tangent, one simply act of maliciousness, and the same time, he was writing his memories.
As I said mang, Sade is all about the tertiary relationship of the "sodomy", coupled with his unique hegerochromism of genre and a "je ne sais quoi" subtly inserted into his prose.

Discuss.

>> No.4896339

>>4895456
"Really" free would mean that you are god

>> No.4896535

>>4895396
>claims moral high ground
>posts guy who wrote 'cunts i didn't like getting tortured by my dad' fan fiction

>> No.4896543

>>4895454
biblical savoir amirite

>> No.4896624

>>4892060
Isn't it Rosseau?

Rousseau is taking far more seriously than Sade.

>> No.4896640

>>4894614
>>4894619
Rousseau and Sade, two peas in a pod

>> No.4896666

>>4896339
really free is doing what your genes say instead of what society tells you

>> No.4896718

>>4896666
No, that is not freedom. That is being a slave to your very biological urges. If you believe what you say, don't you suppose we ought to abandon civilization and live as small agricultural socialites?

The pursuit of freedom, is often a regressive state. In order to be free, you must be a slave to obtaining such freedoms.

>> No.4896727

>>4896718
>being a slave to your own biological urges
>your own
>slave to yourself
Also, human nature has like 4 directions, one of which is socialistic

>> No.4896730

>>4895454
It was about about doing everything just to say you did it.

>> No.4896734

>>4892060
>stuck in hedonistic, sensual thinking
>developed no systematized philosophy or logic
>no sense of ethics

Hardly representative of the Enlightenment.

>> No.4896740

>>4896734
It balances it, however.

Someone had to see how the other side lived.

>> No.4897794

>>4896734
Taking rational thought seriously eventually leads to the abandonment of systematised philosophy and logic and ethics. That's the point. The Enlightenment has no place to go but nihilism.