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4830432 No.4830432[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Presumably the goal of militant atheism and anti-theism is the total elimination of religion on a global scale.

Now, let's say this happened tomorrow. Everybody immediately started to believe their religions were false. What would happen to the social order?

It's all good and well to be an existentialist and define your own purpose when you're a well to do French socialist with a hot wife, or a passionate philology professor who sees beauty in tragedy.

But what if your life is absolutely terrible?

I haven't yet heard how an elimination of religion would actually work with the great unwashed. In my view it would simply crush them, or cause widespread unrest or insanity.

>> No.4830437

remember to sage

>> No.4830440

First of all the noble men in their fedoras who advanced society to the point of no religion would finally receive the respect and the female attention they deserve. After all they sacrificed their sex life for the advancement of humanity towards a secular space fairing civilization whose morals are no longer based on fairy tales but on science instead.

>> No.4830462

Hardly anybody likes the Dawkins/ Hitchens school of aggressively proselytising atheism, but clearly the fedora meme has been hijacked by Christfags to discredit any and all flavours of atheism.

>> No.4830491

>>4830432
The moment that atheism claimed a higher cause, it became an ideological movement. The removal of all religion would be no more than the removal of a certain aesthetic from a certain brand of ideologi. Belief always functions in the same way, it is a fundamental part of the human psychology and if it were not to manifest itself in religion, it would simply manifest itself in some other cause. My guess then is that the removal of all religion, would simply increase the number of subscribers to all kinds of humanitarian projects, or other brands of modern ideology, like atheism, but it wouldn't make any difference as to the state of the world.

>> No.4830494

>>4830432
Everyone except the most extreme of pessimists is religious

>> No.4830499

>>4830494
Are animals religious?

>> No.4830504

>>4830499
How could I know that?

>> No.4830511

>>4830499
Seagulls pass fish from one to another without eating them, simply to establish primitive relations. In this sense some animals are caught in a social web, which would be a primitive equivalent of that social web between humans which establishes ideological fantasy, which is first and foremost a socializing function. In other words some animals have the primitive social premise of that which in humans can constitude religious ideology.

>> No.4830512

It wouldn't make any difference. Society has some kind of morals that would replace the dogmas of religion

>> No.4830515

>>4830494
are you even serious

>> No.4830517

>>4830499
Everyone except the most extreme of pessimists and the mentally underevolved are religious.

>> No.4830520

Religion is not as a big an enemy of science as philosophy is. Even if religion disappeared, philosophy would still be holding back progress.

>> No.4830524

>>4830515
He's quite right. Before you ask, I'm not a pessimist.

>> No.4830526

>>4830520
Anon who doesn't know anything about philosophy here:
What is philosophy doing to science that is so horrible?

>> No.4830527

>>4830526
Refuting it with pessimistic meta induction.

>> No.4830528

>>4830520
Without philosophy every ideological twist of scientific fact, would be accepted as truth. It should also be added that facts never speak for themselves, they need to be articulated, we can see this in the massive gap that occours between a scientific report as it functions in academia, and the same report when it is dragged into public discourse by some politician who refuses to take responsibility for his blatant stupidity.

>> No.4830530

>>4830527
Can you elaborate, or at least put that into terms someone completely unfamiliar with the jargon can understand?

>> No.4830532

>>4830524
I'd say me and like 2/3 of the people I know (~same age) are neither religious nor pessimistic and overall quite happy with their lifes

>> No.4830534

>>4830520
This. The "philosophy" of religion has a lot less to do with some conscious ideology and is more of a symptom of humanity.

The real bullshit begins when people take philosophy seriously and try to enforce it against human nature. God is not dead, because people are god. You can't take the religious bullshittery out of them because it's the very core of mankind, you can only leave a gap for something similar to fill.

Also, I'd rather live in a world run by theocrats than the current trend of SJW any day, life under Christian politicians is okay. Fedora pros? Not so much.

>> No.4830540

>>4830530
It means that science can never be taken as "true" or reflective of "realism" because it's constantly changing. A theory which attempts to explain reality today despite claims of its robustness may be completely out modeled tomorrow.

It's like every single scientific discovery pulls you out of the matrix one more layer, from one matrix to a higher level matrix. But when do you know you are finally in the real world? Every single time science claims "this is the real world!" and another discovery comes along "Nope! That was just the matrix! We are in the real world NOW"

>> No.4830542

>>4830532
Then you're not intelligent, honest and perceptive

>> No.4830548

>>4830540
I must not be cut out for philosophy, because I'm not seeing a problem here.
A model is just a model, never the thing it models.
I just don't see where the problem is.

>> No.4830553

>>4830540
While you are contemplating the "matrix", scientists are producing useful results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6hxo1sC-dU

>> No.4830555

>>4830542
no, you're just a whiny little faggot bitch stuck in babby's first existential euphoria

>> No.4830557

>>4830548
I personally don't think philosophy and science conflict, but there are many adherents of scientism who do. Particularly those who believe that science has made philosophy completely irrelevant because science is now "good enough" to explain the real world without the need for philosophical concepts.

>> No.4830562

>>4830534
Fedora pros would put us all under the knife

There's an undercurrent of fascism with these morans

>> No.4830565

>>4830557
There are a few problems science can't solve. But philosophy cannot solve them either. There is literally no demand for philosophy anymore in the 21st century.

>> No.4830574

>>4830565
Different anon, but:
What problems are those?

>> No.4830576

>>4830565
Well I don't think that's exactly true. The "hard problem of consciousness" is a relatively new philosophical concept that people would not even be aware of if not for philosophers. It's something that's very important to understanding the mind, and it could indeed be testable one day.

No concept = nothing to test.

>> No.4830579

>>4830555
Typical non-sensical optimist rebuttal

>> No.4830583

>>4830579
it would be quite sensical if you were more intelligent.

>> No.4830586

>>4830565
There are lots of problems that philosophy is better suited for. Our society isn't driven by scientific discovery its driven by vague shit like culture and public discourse. Every year thousands of great scientific projects are discarded either because the culture will not adopt them, or because they do not fit into the economic sphere. If there was no philosophy there would be no relation between the scientific community and the society which needs it. Only discoveries that sell would be accepted, and it would be at the cost of massive ideological distortion of the truth value of any such discovery.

>> No.4830593

>>4830542
actually I'm all three of those
also this >>4830555
oh no I will die some day and there's no absolute justice in the world and I wont get rewarded for being nice to people in paradise and maybe my free will is actually an illusion woohoo
deal with it

>> No.4830594

>>4830586
so, how's your life going.

>> No.4830602

>>4830511
>social webs are religion

>> No.4830611

>>4830594
It's going well, because there is a constant productive conflict of interests and thoughts in the public sphere which allows more or less open space for new discoveries to be debated and implimented. In the old Aztec world thousands of slaves worked hard every day, dragging stones, not because the wheel wasn't invented (toys had wheels), but because the culture had no room to impliment it and become aware of the potential. It does not matter how much shit you invent or how helpful it is, if the culture is shut. The whole of scientific history is history about the need for open culture, look at Kopernikus or Darwin, their discoveries were long underway because they did not fit public discourse.

>> No.4830612

>>4830574
Hard problem of consciousness, Meaning of life, etc

>>4830576
The hard problem of consciousness is not new at all. It's a question naturally arising in every kindergarten child during mentalization (unless your psychosocial development is impaired). Philosophy doesn't do shit to solve it. Philosophers only throw shit at each other for disagreeing with their own opinions. Philosophy of the mind is literally like religion.

>> No.4830614

>>4830586
Philosophy isn't suited for these problems. Having opinions does not require philosophy. Everyone is equally qualified to have opinions. Consenus is found by common sense.

>> No.4830623

>>4830612
Well I mean the term "hard problem of consciousness" is new. It's from a book published in 1996. Questions relating to consciousness have been around since the dawn of men of course.

Philosophy might not be able to solve it, but it sure as hell provides science a list of things to look into it.

>> No.4830626

>>4830614
And philosophy is the only tool we have to blow open the discourses which lock opinion in place, so that we become unable to solve our problems. Look for example at Tea Party discourse in the US, they want more freedom from big companies, but they try to achieve this by reducing governement, which although it is shitty, is the only thing that stands between the people and the corporations which they see as abusive. They are effectively producing their own problem, because they have no tools for considering their own discourse.

>> No.4830628

>>4830614
As a doctor of opinions, it's my opinion that you're bit of a dickhead when it comes to equality of opinions m8

>> No.4831815
File: 44 KB, 500x539, timeline.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4831815

>> No.4831832

>Presumably the goal of militant atheism and anti-theism is the total elimination of religion on a global scale.

Says who?

>> No.4831840

>>4830623

The hard problem of consciousness was the problem of subjectivity, right?

Isn't subjectivity just external input at a certain place at a certain time?

>> No.4831845

>>4831832
Dawkins, who is de facto spokesperson for the whole movement.

>> No.4831859

>>4831845

Not for me, I don't care about religion's existence/non-existence. Morality will still exist, and man's wonder at the world will still exist when religion disappears

>> No.4831870

Interesting article here, and I always enjoy listening to and reading Douglas Murray, who is perhaps the most interesting and thoughtful atheist in the media at the moment.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9186701/atheisms-empty-tomb/

>> No.4831872

>>4830534
>Also, I'd rather live in a world run by theocrats than the current trend of SJW any day, life under Christian politicians is okay.

I don't know if you've notice, but SJWs and theists are basically the same thing.

>> No.4831879

>>4831872
*noticed

correctionbloxxxx

>> No.4831882

>>4831870
>The problem that confronts them is as stark as it is simple: our morality has religious roots.

No it doesn't, it has biological roots

>> No.4831920

>>4830562
>There's an undercurrent of fascism with these morans

>Fascism wants man to be active and to engage in action with all his energies; it wants him to be manfully aware of the difficulties besetting him and ready to face them. It conceives of life as a struggle in which it behooves a man to win for himself a really worthy place, first of all by fitting himself (physically, morally, intellectually) to become the implement required for winning it. As for the individual, so for the nation, and so for mankind (4). Hence the high value of culture in all its forms (artistic, religious, scientific) (5) and the outstanding importance of education. Hence also the essential value of work, by which man subjugates nature and creates the human world (economic, political, ethical, and intellectual).
>In order to understand the Fascist movement one must first appreciate the underlying spiritual phenomenon in all its vastness and depth. The manifestations of the movement have been of a powerful and decisive nature, but one should go further. In point of fact Italian Fascism has not only been a political revolt against weak and incapable governments who had allowed State authority to decay and were threatening to arrest the progress of the country, but also a spiritual revolt against old ideas which had corrupted the sacred principles of religion, of faith, of country.
>Struggle is at the origin of all things, for life is full of contrasts: there is love and hatred, white and black, day and night, good and evil; and until these contrasts achieve balance, struggle fatefully remains at the root of human nature. However, it is good for it to be so. Today we can indulge in wars, economic battles, conflicts of ideas, but if a day came to pass when struggle ceased to exist, that day would be tinged with melancholy; it would be a day of ruin, the day of ending. But that day will not come, because history ever discloses new horizons. By attempting to restore calm, peace, tranquility, or. A would be fighting the tendencies of the present period of dynamism. Ore must be prepared for other struggles and for other surprises

If the average fedora was really fascist they'd have a gf and children and spending their time killing cops or something, usually fedoras just try to blame the outside world for their problems rather than find solutions for themselves, which is counter to fascist ideology.

>> No.4831921

>>4831859
If you don't care about the existence of religion, you're not a "militant" atheist, you're just an atheist.

>> No.4831941

>>4831882
>No it doesn't, it has biological roots
>Implying
I'm pretty sure our roots are cultural. Maybe the first people who would kill other tribs for fun and rape their women by the hundreds had a natural morality, but the one we have now is almost entirely man-made.

>> No.4831985

Atheism
>also based on unproven theories and hypothesis
>Atheists
>also pro war

Fucking lol, militant atheists aren't going to win any wars unless its on a keyboard. I mean liberalism and democracy are a joke in the current west. It's very obviously broken down into a liberal fascism where if you don't support the current supporters of the state, your reputation is ruined and if litigation can be brought against you by national pressures on the government. The government will always agree with these people because they in theory support economic stability because the more liberals the more consumer.


>More consumers mean more taxes for the private groups which lobbies love.

>> No.4832016

>>4831985
Not even going to pay attention to your other inane points but
>also based on unproven theories and hypothesis
Just... what?

>> No.4832038

>>4832016
Patterns are only consistent in our observable time spans.

We know nothing. Reading and language cannot translate thought, or even anything. Language provides the artistry of improvement, but its side effect is mass irrationality.

If it can be written to you in a way in which can convince you, which has been scientific engineered by modern arts, it will control you.

Art is mind control.

>> No.4832069

>>4830440
Logic and centuries of philosophy are no match for your epic memes.

>> No.4832073

>>4832038
>/r/ you can't know nuffin am i profound yet
>babby's first skepticism
Ah, I see.

>> No.4832113

>>4830491
Yes, a thief frustrated by a bike lock probably will go on to steal another. Doesn't mean you leave all bikes unlocked.

>> No.4832127

>>4832073
No I don't care for skepticism. I am sure of this, you know nothing. You believe that democracy=right

The United States and Russia commit murder for global domination. This is a great point in history. You can see the clear error in the ways of both order and democracy/freedom

>> No.4832144

>>4830534
Sweden is probably the most SJW nation, while Iran is probably the most theocratic.

>> No.4832166

>>4832127
>You believe that democracy=right
No, I don't but keep posting.

>> No.4832177
File: 20 KB, 403x403, youlookprettygood.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4832177

>>4831815
>no sources
>scientific advancement measured in apples and oranges as it seems

The real irony of that picture is how it represents the scientifically impaired..

>> No.4832178

>>4832127
What system would you recommend then

>> No.4832179

>>4832166
Please, i guarantee you support it when it suits your interests.

>> No.4832191

>>4832178
Rebel, abandon the system altogether. Stop trying to label everything and you will find enlightenment.

Recognize things for what they are and not for whom they benefit.

>> No.4832194

>>4832191
Thanks for the platitudes

>> No.4832201

>>4830432

Depends whether anything replaced it or not. If not, then quite possibly a substantial collapse of society. And if something did replace it, then it depends what.

So, kind of an impossible question.

>> No.4832218

>>4832201
People will just pursue other pleasures like friends, family, art, science, work. Many parts of the West are already remarkably secular and indifferent to religion, yet they are stable.

>> No.4832234

>>4832218

Yeah, they've successfully replaced it for the most part (I should point out I'm not religious). But it's a mistake to think religion is purely ornamental, I think. For good or ill.

>> No.4832269

>>4832194
>platitudes
What do you think both and the left do. They present platitudes to appeal to you. Forgive me if I assumed you knew this, but text and language are expression. I am expressing logic in an emotional state to appeal to your understanding of society.

In order to convince people who follow the order, you must speak in the language of the order.

>> No.4832540

>>4830494
*tips mitre

>> No.4832572

It would be really disappointing if religion vanished. Me and some of my atheist bros attend the church every sunday. It's better than comedy. Afterwards we laugh for hours about these people believing in fairy tales.

>> No.4832578
File: 580 KB, 300x150, 1394141535054.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4832578

>>4832572

>> No.4832826

>>4832578
>not getting kicked out of churches for wearing fedoras

It's like people don't know how to live anymore.

>> No.4832958

>In my view it would simply crush them, or cause widespread unrest or insanity.

That's a rational argument for faith, and it undermines what it tries to show is useful.

Also no. People have irrational beliefs without religion.

Mormons believe wealth is a blessing from god, and are taught to seek it out to make sky daddy happy. Their beliefs have worked out well for them. Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, not so much.

Beliefs can be both cause and coping mechanism of a shitty life, because beliefs inform action. Belief that god is constantly reforming the world and causation is an illusion, as shitloads of Muslims believe, isn't particularly useful for taking charge of your life.

>> No.4832966

>>4832958
>Belief that god is constantly reforming the world and causation is an illusion

Seems pretty neutral without extra premises.

>> No.4832967
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4832967

>>4830520
This. The biggest enemy of science nowadays is relativistic post-modernist philosophy and SJWs influenced by Herbert Marcuse's anti-rationalism.

Atheists who rail against a dead faith like christianity and choose to ignore these menaces totally miss the point.

Sokal fought a worthwhile battle, Dawkins kicks a dead dog.

>> No.4832970

>>4832966
It isn't. The rise of occasionalism ended the Islamic Golden age of STEM. Quite explicitly. Its adherents really fucking hated philosophers.

>> No.4832974

>>4832970
>Quite explicitly. Its adherents really fucking hated philosophers.

Well, there's your extra premises.

>> No.4833050

I'd been thinking about this a lot lately since my next door neighbours are utter cunts. If they were christian, there wouldn't be a problem! Instead I'm blessed with a couple, the man being approaching 40 and on a welfare work scheme for long term unemployed and the woman having something to do with a local "animal welfare" group. I can't figure out what exactly, but she has 3 dogs in her house at the moment, all of them nice breeds and they never shut up probably because it's a very small house and they're kept indoors all the time. They have small parties probably once a month with three other people where they play loud music they shout over. It doesn't bother me but they look like a bunch of sad greying cunts who never figured out how to get together apart from what they saw on MTV.
Other one is a family with an older sister who is in court for beating up another girl. Their dad smokes weed out the back constantly and is "chill" as in you can talk to him easily but that's about it. They have a big dog their younger daughter yells at a fucking lot as if it understands here, again seems to be a learned social thing she picked up off TV. Hey, shout at the dog just like a sitcom!

Just give me a nice churchgoing family. It literally was a choice between the church or the hip-hop for kids growing up this generation and now we have a bunch of middle class whiteys checking things off their list of things to do as prescribed by television.
Kids who didn't fight in school and feel bad about it get to take it out on the unarmed cops in their mandatory run-in with the law! Will it be at a college party or a social justice protest? Doesn't matter, you're still the same scum. Same thing with drugs, sex, everything they missed when they actually had an excuse to do it (being a dumb horny teen) they catch up on because they feel like it's the cool thing to do.

It's nothing to really do with intelligence at the end of the day. Finding a person with a strong personality who is seemingly untouched by outside sources is hard, but not impossible. It would just be a lot more bearable even if one of those sources was today's watered down Christianity.

>> No.4833064

>>4833050
>It literally was a choice between the church or the hip-hop for kids growing up this generation

Yeah, no.

>> No.4833068

>>4833064

Replace the hip-hop with whatever other vaguely music related clique you want..

>> No.4833077

>>4833068

And still no. You can reject secularly-founded ethical and moral sensibilities if you like, but you can't pretend they don't actually exist.

>> No.4833078

>>4830520
>>4832967
Philosophy and Science seem to be the same to me. Why do people insist on granting science ultimate authority? I can't remember where I heard or read that science wasnt even referred to as it is nowadays until some dude popularized the modern meaning in the late 19th century.

>> No.4833196

>>4832572
I hope you are trolling. That isn't even humerus, its just blunt ignorance and a waste of time. Consider the fact that atheism is a religion in itself.

>>4832826

Wearing a hat
>In church
>le trash man

>>4832967
Is that serious? That..fuck...holy fuck how gullible to these people get? I feel like some of these principles are anti logic, literally like some kind of alternative religious dogma 21st C style.

>God isn't dead
>Dogmatic institutions aren't dead they're just in the name of liberal ideals.

>> No.4833881
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4833881

>>4833196
>That isn't even humerus,
>humerus

>> No.4834632

>>4833078
⇒Philosophy and Science seem to be the same to me.

I sure hope you're trolling. Philosophy and science are polar opposites. Science creates testable hypotheses to exlain objective observations. Philosophy makes up intentionally unanswerable problems without basis in reality and then fights over subjective opinions.

>> No.4834739

>>4834632
For how long are you going to keep this retarded act up?

>> No.4834763

>>4834739
What are you talking about?

>> No.4834822

>>4834763
You don't have a fucking clue about the totality science, the scientific method, the history or even the definition of philosophy, Western society and the ideas that led to the Scientific revolution and the role philosophy plays in the academia today. You shitpost time and again, spouting your inane, simplistic retarded views on philosophy and science and the worst part is that I think you really think you're going somewhere and that's there any truth behind your horseshit. Just stop, for the sake of this board and yourself.
>Philosophy makes up intentionally unanswerable problems without basis in reality and then fights over subjective opinions.
Just this sentence alone makes me want to kill myself, to think I share this planet with someone as mentally handicapped as you.

>> No.4834824

>>4834822
totality of*

>> No.4834839

>>4834822
Nice projection. I hate to break it to you, but everything you said applies to your person, not mine. I have a STEM degree and profound knowledge of science, history and philosophy.

⇒and the role philosophy plays in the academia today
None at all. It does not play a role anymore. You can delude yourself into believing that it is still important, but it simply isn't.

>> No.4834855
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4834855

>>4834839
At least start using a trip so we can filter you, or do you absolutely require an audience for your horseplay?

>> No.4834872

>>4834855
Which of the facts I posted do you disagree with?

>> No.4834874
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4834874

>>4830432
I imagine that is part of the idea. those people would get sad about their situation and start shit.

>> No.4834881

>>4834872
Well for example
>objective observations
None of the observations any human makes are objective, eg. not related to a unique subject. The very formation process of conscious experience takes time, so you can't by definition be in direct contact with the outside world. "Reality" is just the best guess your brain makes from all the input it receives from the nervous system. Science is guesswork which aims at the best and the most consistent results, there's nothing "objective" about it, and a retard like you wouldn't know this if it weren't for people thinking logically and conceptually (philosophers). Your second claim was too retarded for me to analyze it in further depth.

Like I said, please get a trip.

>> No.4834961

>>4834881
Observation is objective. When everyone except you is agreeing that the big gray animal we saw was an elephant, then it was a fucking elephant irregardless of your mental illness. No academic philosopher questions the existence of reality. You are not a philosopher, you are an uneducated high school dropout talking out of his ass. Go back to facebook or wherever you can feel all deep for propagating this kindergarten tier shit of "hurr durr what if reality doesn't really exist". Every normally developed 5 year old has grown out of this phase.

>> No.4834964
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4834964

>>4830432
Atheists purport to know about god by claiming others can't know nothing about nothing.

How about this God is real becasue I feel him. One day you will answer to the man upstairs.

>> No.4834969

>>4834881
Your infantility physically disgusts me. If you're too unintelligent to understand science, please at least keep your ignorance to yourself and don't parade it around as if it was something to be proud of. In science we make repeated observations and measurements. Through the process of peer review subjective errors and bias are eliminated and objectivity is established. If something is measured to have a length of 1 meter, then it has a length of 1 meter (plus/minus the negligibly small measurement error). And it will still have a length of 1 meter even if a deluded child who believes to be the most insightful philosopher of all times runs into the lab and screams "u cannot know nuffin, everythin is subjective lol maybe its 1 kilometer and ur consciousness is reading the ruler wrong xD". You're gonna get kicked out and we're not even gonna laugh at you. You're not funny anymore, just sad.

>> No.4835116

>>4834961
>irregardless

Noice.

Seriously, though, this has already been explained to you. 'Philosophy' is a broad subject. The clove cigarettes and berets are part of it, but then so are other, non-touchy-feely things.

>> No.4835145

>>4834964
Simmer down Xian. The orgasms you get by jamming multiple dildos up your ass is natural. This feeling does not imply a divine being.

The implications of a massive black dick in your asshole can be assessed without assuming it's there. We haven't accidentally caused it to come into existence by thinking about it though. Otherwise how could we comment how sad its lack makes you?

>> No.4835378
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4835378

>Religion is dangerous
>We're going to force the entire world to adopt our beliefs because we're right and you are all wrong
>but we're PEACEFUL
Islam is that way
<------------

>> No.4835402

>>4830432
>Now, let's say this happened tomorrow
might as well presume that god exists

why entertain such silly notions in the first place? waste of fucking time

>> No.4835431

>>4835378
i think you meant to say "christianity"

>> No.4835433

>>4834964
the one true god just personally told me that you worship an usurper god and will be punished for this

how does it make you feel?

>> No.4835461

>>4832966
No, if you deny determinism you can't be held responsible for anything outside that which god is judging you for.

Calvinism for instance still allows responsibility because it allows for determinism.

>> No.4835467

>>4833050
Trash like that usually believes in god or some spiritual force on their side though. Forgives them and loves them and lets them follow their bliss.

Have you followed your bliss today? Follow it. Follow your bliss. The guardian angels will catch you when you make an oopsies.

>> No.4835515

>>4835461
>more extra premises

I'm not taking up for medieval Islam, I'm just saying that particular doctrine, in a vacuum, doesn't seem at all significant.

>> No.4835518

>>4835515
>Seems

Explain.

>> No.4835526

>>4835515
So you think not being held responsible for your life has no effect on people's actions?

Why?

>> No.4835537

>>4835518

I'm not sure what you want explaining. The world is constantly being recreated rather than arising from prior circumstances? OK. So we drop a ball and it falls because Allah wills that it falls, rather than because of gravity. Great. Now, did Allah will that it would fall because: Allah wishes to perfectly mimic a state of determinism; Allah wishes the ball to be on the ground; Allah wishes that Consequence X be visited on the person who dropped the ball and has deemed that the ball dropping is the way he wishes his will to be effected...? Etc.

tl;dr if it's all the will of god, you still have to posit what the actual intent of god is. And we could easily say that god wants us to behave as though determinism were true. Saying so is one of the possible extra premises, as is saying otherwise.

>>4835526
>still inserting the extra premise

>> No.4835546

>>4835537
No. Its an illusion. Its only by adding an extra premise that god wants us to act as if it isn't (Despite the fact that theologians are telling you it is) that it can be neutral.

You seem to be projecting errors from your ideas unto an idea that doesn't suffer from them.

>> No.4835549

>>4834961
when one person sees something it's a hallucination

when a group of people sees something it's a conspiracy

when everybody sees something it's reality

am i doing philosophy yet?

>> No.4835552

>>4835546
>Its only by adding an extra premise that god wants us to act as if it isn't

Wrong. There are no conclusions to be drawn from the doctrine in a vacuum. Feel free to explain how I am mistaken rather than simply saying so, if I am in fact wrong.

>> No.4835615

>>4835552
Already been done.

You're just blustering at this point. Please stop. Its unbecoming.

>> No.4835626

>>4835615
>bare assertions are explanations

Well OK then.

>> No.4835656
File: 133 KB, 525x525, 1398864563568.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4835656

this image appears to be moving.

everyone can agree on this.

therefore it is moving.

>> No.4835658

>>4835626
Says the person who had to be prodded to explain themselves. Look, the position has been defended well, but you don't seem to have much experience explaining things to others or even understanding how much others know of what your thought process is to be capable of pointing out issues or defending your own viewpoint.

The more you whine about being wrong the sadder you look. Just you know, on a personal note and stuff.

>> No.4835666

>>4835658
>le epick chroleman

>>>/b/