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/lit/ - Literature

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4802586 No.4802586[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

style > plot.

prove me wrong.

>> No.4802600

what a bad way to start a thread

>> No.4802613

>the way food looks is more important that how it tastes
no
QED

>> No.4802619

>>4802613
False analogy. Taste of food is not a worthy comparison to plot of story.

>> No.4802673

>>4802586
This is largely true in high literature, the tone, style, the authors ability to weave prose into something beautiful, the ideas explored, all of these take precedence over plot. McCarthy, Robinson, et al., critically acclaimed writers with sometimes vague or almost non existent plots.

>> No.4802683
File: 16 KB, 250x378, 250px-Twilightbook.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4802683

>>4802586
You are proved wrong.

>> No.4802691

>>4802613
A better comparison would be painting, a well defined plot that follows Freytag's triangle is like a realist painting, a story focused on style is like an impressionist painting or even abstract. The former will always appeal to the masses and is substantive in a quantifiable way while the latter is harder to appreciate but represents the evolution of the art.

>> No.4802705

characters > both

>> No.4802713

>>4802683
had no discernible style OR plot so I'm not sure how it proves anything

>admitting to reading Twilight
I was a girl in high school, I didn't want to be a pariah....

>> No.4802749

you don't know what style is.

>> No.4802756

>>4802691
>devolution of the art.
ftfy

>> No.4802905

>>4802613
it is if it wants to be art. do you eat paintings or look at them?

>> No.4802908

>>4802673
>mccarthy
>no plot

do you even subtext?

>> No.4802915
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4802915

>>4802586
Plot is style. Art is style. That is the nature of aesthetics.

>> No.4802949

I think a writer should focus on both. Stories with no plots are boring. Stories with all plots are inartistic. This isn't a very mind blowing opinion but hey there I go.

>> No.4802958

>>4802613
When the hell are you supposed to use QED? I hear all of these nerdy STEM students using it when they think they've won an argument. I know what it translates to, but can someone explain it to me? I've seen it used in so many different ways.

>> No.4802961

>>4802958
You use it when you prove a mathematical theorem nobody else did before.
Every other use is pure wankery.

>> No.4802962

>>4802586
Structure > style > plot

>> No.4802966

>>4802949
>equating style with art
pleb detected

>> No.4802972

>all those posts reducing writing to "style"
Style is such an ugly word to speak about the writing, it misses the entire point.

>> No.4802978
File: 65 KB, 336x500, Susan-books.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
4802978

>>4802586
Not even in cinema is this even right.

Style is a tool, imo. If it can serve to deliver the tiredest clichéd plot or is enticing enough to an audience all on its own in a barely there premise (Art film/Cremaster)

http://www.coldbacon.com/writing/sontag-onstyle.html

>> No.4802980

>>4802972
Suggest a better one then. Everyone knows what it's supposed to mean in this context. Or do you count all content that is not plot-related to style?

>> No.4802983

>>4802980
>Suggest a better one
"The writing"

>> No.4802998

>>4802983
I see.

Well, anyway, I agree that OP's superficial equation is faulty, if only in the sense that it is lacking. There is so much in a text that is neither plot nor writing - I tried to sum it up further up as "structure". It is, in some way, a connection of form and content, though I am not quite sure how to describe it. A great symbolism, for example, is both content (What is described? How is it described?) and form (How does it interact with the other symbolism in the text?).

This structure, this feel of order, is my personal highest aesthetic ideal.

>> No.4803006

>>4802586
The French proved in film why the "style as substance" art is all nonsense. I'd rather watch or read someone who uses style not for its own sake but to better present characters or plot point. The Godards of the world don't interest me at all. I'd take Sergio Leone over him any day.

>> No.4803072

the problem is that some style is shit and the shittiness overshadows the better plot

>> No.4803081

>>4803006
Leone is as horrible. Spaghetti shit. Ford is the only one worthwhile despite being pleb garbage.

>> No.4803121

>>4803006
but leone's all about style. long expositions, beautiful vistas, gunslinger drivel for a story.

>> No.4803135

>>4803121
That's what I'm saying. I like when style is working in conjunction with the plot, like in Leone's films. He can take a simple story and turn it into a brilliant film with his style.

>> No.4803145

>>4803135
Leone is shit. His plots are non-existent and his style is macho posturing meant to appeal to manchildren.

>> No.4803158

>>4803145
You're taking the Leone thing too far. I don't consider myself a fan of his. The point was that I'd rather watch his films than someone like Godard's.

>> No.4803163

the best book ever is a book where you can't talk about any aspect of the book without talking about the plot. (because most of all when i talk about literature, i want to talk about the plot of books, so if you can write a book where talking about the plot is equivalent to high-level literary analysis, then i'm a happy camper.)

for non-platonic objects, one should strive to use style to further the plot, and plot to further the style.

>> No.4803165

>>4803135
You're contradicting yourself. Leone plots are trite.

>> No.4803169

>>4803158
>The point was that I'd rather watch his films than someone like Godard's.
So you prefer style over plot.

>> No.4803175

>>4803165
They are trite, I agree. The point is that his films have plots.

>> No.4803189

>>4803175
Godard films are all about the substance.
Did you even watch any of them?

>> No.4803859

>>4802908
Without going to Google what's the plot of The Orchard Keeper or Blood Meridian?

>> No.4803861

>>4803859
no don't say or at least spoiler it i just ordered it and havn't read it (if there is a plot)

>> No.4803863

>>4803861
blood meridian btw

>> No.4803933
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4803933

>>4802586
>prove me wrong
>didn't offer an argument
How about you give me a set of premises and we can both see if they follow logically and are valid.

>> No.4803980

>>4802905
the main purpose for paintings isn't to nourish, the same cannot be said of food.

>> No.4804004

>>4802586
>style > plot.

like gamers who only care about graphics and not gameplay or story.

How superficial are you OP?

>but muh polygons and aesthetics

>> No.4804047

>>4804004
I'd argue gameplay has more to do with literary style than plot. Literary style is about understanding what you're working with and tweaking/breaking rules, just as gameplay is understanding the inputs a player is capable of inputting and understanding the outputs you can give out and tweaking/breaking the rules of them. In fact, I'd say plot is always the "plot" of this argument in all artistic arguments. I figure it's because its the oldest aspect of storytelling so it's something that will always be their because of our culture irrespective of the progress of art.

>> No.4804185

>>4803859
didn't read the orchard keeper, but as for blood meridian, you find the plot in the myriad of subtext layers. from views on milton, pseudo historical reenactment, treatise on irreverent nature, through lost civilizations and futility of human condition. and all that before you delve into psyche of its protagonists. the setting is the plot, as well as its characters. style is subservient to it and vice versa.

>> No.4804190

>>4804004
that's an interesting question - you could argue that the main point of interactive media is telling the story without showing it. story is the plot, but the way it's told is the style. let's take metal gear solid series for example, since it's the pinnacle of interactive storytelling - people play it for the plot, but no one would be enchanted by it if there weren't multiple possibilites of approach - triggering mostly 'numb' (not or barely interactive) plot sequences. storytelling in that sense is much more akin to style because it's so distinct of a method. style is connected to narration, and in games especially it is much more important how the story is told than what's the story about.

take shadow of colossus for example; plot is about fighting giant creatures in the hope to resurrect your love. that's most of it, in just one sentence. storytelling - their grimaces, use of sounds, horse AI - those are all stylistic means of giving that meagre plot substance.

>> No.4804370

style and plot are inter-related.

style is the method that conveys plot.

the better the style, the better depth a plot can have.

what most people are really arguing about is whether they prefer a intricate or simple style.

there is also an argument over authors who have intricate styles but simple plots. most times these are called novels with no plot.

>> No.4804394

>>4804004
You got it all wrong, dude.

plot = plot
style = gameplay
cover art = graphics
quality of paper and print = frames per second

>> No.4804422
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4804422

>>4804394
>cover art = graphics

>> No.4804443

well yeah, raw plot shouldn't be important at all. subtext is much more significant

>> No.4804449

Hey, completely out of topic question. Anyone knows what happened to the IRC channel #bookz?
Any other way to obtain pdfs

>> No.4804458

>>4802586
It's a nonsensical dualism You can't determine plot in a style-neutral way since it has to be communicated in some way, and you can't have style without plot since you have to be telling something in order to portray a style. They're inseparable and one and the same.

>> No.4804459

This is what I'm getting in the channel's topic
-ChanServ- [#bookz] There is no unauthorized book/ebook trading here. No @search/@find. You will be banned. Book-related discussion is encouraged.

>> No.4805132

>>4804458
>what is stream of consciousness

it's an example that style is superior to plot and can exist without it

>> No.4805189
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4805189

>>4804449
Whatchyu talkin' bout I used it yesterday

>> No.4805656

>>4802705
The only guy in the thread who reads books. [except me]

>> No.4805680

>>4805132
it's still plot, just not conventional plot.