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/lit/ - Literature

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4722409 No.4722409 [Reply] [Original]

Who is your favorite villain in all of literature?

>> No.4722423

>>4722409
it would have to be the character your father made to represent me in spite of me fucking your mother with my big black dick

>> No.4722427

Javert

>> No.4722429

Smerdyakov was the best

>> No.4722437

>>4722409
Madame Bovary

>> No.4722439

O'Brien from 1984 always scared me.

>> No.4722443

god

>> No.4722446
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4722446

The Mule is objectively the best villain in all of science fiction.

>> No.4722461
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4722461

The one inside every first world man.

>> No.4722472

Judge Holden

>> No.4722477

Holden for raping his sister multiple times

>> No.4722496
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4722496

>>4722439
I never really saw O'Brien as being the protagonist, merely a powerful tool of Big Brother.

>mfw this girl didn't get that Winston dies at the end until I told her a year after she read it

>> No.4722506

>>4722496
>O'Brien as being the protagonist
>the protagonist

I should hope not.

>> No.4722511

>>4722506
Oh wow, how the fuck did I do that. Guess my hands and brain aren't always in sync.

>> No.4722581

>>4722506

I saw the whole of Oceania as the collective protagonist. It was interesting to view the world through the eyes of the antagonist, Winston (known thought criminal), as he clawed maniacally at the moral fabric of society. It was quite prescient of O'Brien and IngSoc to identify Winston as a Hierarchical Collectivist in the process of becoming.

The ending was grand. I'm a sucker for a redemption story.

>> No.4722584

Aside from Milton's Satan I'd say Humbert Humbert.

>> No.4722718

Holden caufield

>> No.4722724

Julius Caesar.

>> No.4722734

Willie Stark

>> No.4722809

based god

>> No.4723228

>>4722477
Holden... Caulfield???

>> No.4723235

Mr Teatime.

>> No.4723243

>>4722734
there's a difference between a novel's villain and a novel's tragic hero you blithering fuckhead, please get shot in a louisiana courthouse

>> No.4723247

>>4723228
Yeah, he raped Phoebe multiple times.

>> No.4723252

Thrasymachus from Plato's first book of Politeia

>> No.4723398

>>4722427
this. Also Chigurh

>> No.4723407

Define Villain in a non stereotypical context first.

>> No.4723409

Karla

>> No.4723417

>>4723247
What the fuck are you talking about?! I must not have understood the book at all

>> No.4723433

>>4723417
Just wait for the next thread about the book to pop up and someone will inevitably explain it. Just don't listen when they tell you that "beat it" is a Freudian slip because it wasn't slang for masturbation until the sixties or so, the book was set in the 20's, and it was written in 1951. People need to stop saying that.

>> No.4723445

Wolf Larsen from The Seawolf. He also quotes Milton at one point, which is pretty fitting.

>> No.4723454

Iago

>> No.4723612

>>4723454
Didn't think I had one, but your post reminded me of Don Jon. I liked Iago as a villain but never understand how he's such an incredible antagonist.

But all Don Jon does is play pranks on a bunch of over dramatic rich fucks then rides away laughing.

>> No.4723656

Nobody Judge Holden here?

>> No.4723702

>>4723243
>muh strict extratextual categorization

Because we absolutely HAVE to lump Michael Corleone and Othello into the same category with no nuance.

>> No.4723903

>>4722443
>>4722409
seconded
It's god.

>> No.4723927

>>4723433
Can you please explain it? I'm impatient

>> No.4723942

>>4723407
The protagonist's enemy, the burn to his toast, the cheese to his dick. Or her's.

>> No.4723967

>>4723903
>2014
>misreading it this badly
>reading too much Romantic criticism
>not capitalizing God

>> No.4724006

the false logos

>> No.4724031
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4724031

>>4723967
>Disagreeing with Romantic criticism ala Ivan Karamazov
>Disagreeing with Metaphysical rebellion in general

Shiggy diggy doo

>> No.4724073

Randall Flagg

>> No.4724097

Judas

>> No.4724382

Richard III
Nigga was the original super-villain

>> No.4724402

I like Hotspur

>> No.4724445

Judas Iscariot.
or Nicodemus.

>> No.4724494

>>4722409
Corrine Foxworth.

>> No.4724525

>>4722409

Implying Lucifer was a villain.

He was just standing up for what he believed in.

>> No.4724534

It's a tie between Judge Holden from Blood Meridian, Larry Cook from A Thousand Acres, and Colonel Cathcart from Catch-22. All three embody a very human lust for power and lack of empathy that I find terrifying.

>> No.4724672

>>4724031
>being a materialist
>still not getting over the metaphysical rebellion
Wake up it's not the 20th century

>> No.4724717

>>4724525
What? Destroying everything out of spite, greed and jealousy because he wanted to be God?

>> No.4724722

>>4724525
That's how he started out, fighting for the spread of free will but in the end his anger turned him in to the villian they made him out to be.

>> No.4724728

>>4724722
He was never at any point fighting for anything but himself. It's entirely a story of a child trying to be his father.

>> No.4724734

>>4724728
I always saw it as him being the only one who saw the injustice of servitude to God's word by the other angels and fought back.

>> No.4724740

>>4724734
That's never been what is was about. There is no injustice in serving God. Lucifer manipulated the other angels into turning against God purely to serve his goals.

>> No.4724744

Yago

>> No.4724745

skeletor!

>> No.4724747

>hh

>> No.4724748
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4724748

Jory from Ubik

>> No.4724752

"Here at least
We shall be free; the Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy; will not drive us hence;
Here we may reign secure; and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition, though in hell:
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."

>>4724740
It is ambivalent. Sure, in the christian religion, it is the highest justice to serve God, but within the context of John Milton's great fanfiction you can't just say it like that. Whoever is the protagonist/antagonist and whoever is the (anti-)hero/villain is not based on our own moral conventions, but rather based on the way the events are described in the literary work in question. Perspective is important!

>> No.4724753

>>4724740
He's probably coming from the Lucifist perspective which paints Lucifer as a troubled freedom fighter. Good read actually, ties in fairly well with Paradise Lost.

>> No.4724754

>>4724740
That's a matter of perspective, like how Guy Fawkes could have just been a member of terrorist group bent on mindless destruction.

>> No.4724757

>>4724752
It's not ambivalent. Lucifer is a liar and a manipulator. He wants you to pity him, and view him as this tragic, tortured anti hero, but he's nothing but a petty, envious spiteful child.

>> No.4724758

>>4724757
Does he want me to pity him, or does Milton want me to pity him? This is important.

>> No.4724759

>>4724757
And that is completely possible but it is far from the only choice.

>> No.4724767

>>4724758
Milton was portraying him as an extremely good at what he does, which is manipulate. He's charismatic and beautiful, and people gravitate towards him. He uses this to make people believe what he wants them to.

>>4724759
No, it's very confirmed that Lucifer is a liar and a manipulator.

>> No.4724769

>>4724767
>No, it's very confirmed that Lucifer is a liar and a manipulator.
And Patrick Bateman is a murderer and psychopath. He is still the "hero" of American Psycho.

>> No.4724770

>>4724767
Confirmed? This is fiction we're talking about, the very same logic could be used to label God as a liar and a manipulator.

>> No.4724775

>>4724770
We're talking about the embodiment of evil here. In the very same story we're talking about he corrupts the most pure and innocent of all of Gods creation and sewing all the ills of the universe into humanity forever purely out of childish spite

>> No.4724778

>>4724769
The protagonist isn't always a hero anon.

>> No.4724785

>>4724778
But he is usually the (or a) sympathy carrier of the reader.

>> No.4724786

>>4724775
Or he tested God's most beloved creations to prove that Freewill pushed everyone away from him.
I could just as easily say that God commands a man to kill his son and slaughters thousands of innocent children. Perspective.

>> No.4724783

Judas ischariot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkje4FiH9Qc

Judas kind of had a point about jesus wasting oil on his feet instead of using it to feed the poor.

The stupid reply jesus gives is "the poor will be with you always" which seems defeatistic to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZNj4UGjvSU

Movie made me realize what a prick jesus was

>> No.4724795

>>4724786
No, its pretty apparent he was doing out of spite.

And God "slaughtering" people merely relieves them of their mortal body and returns them home to him in heaven where they exist in endless peace and euphoria for the rest of eternity. Death in the service of Gods will is a reward. Lucifer tries to rob humanity of it because it was taken from him as well.

>> No.4724797

>>4724795
And now quote how Milton describes it.

>> No.4724798

>>4724795
Actually, in the same book it says that if you are weight down by sin, or if you not worship God, you are not allowed into heaven. So thos people who were robbed of their mortal forms were also cursed to purgatory.

Villainous.

>> No.4724802

>>4724795
that's only if they have cast out there sins, otherwise they are barred from the gates forever.

In fact, it's a lot more believeable that God is the child in the Old Testament because his entire story boils down to," Do what I say or I'll hurt you"

>> No.4724803

>>4724758
Maybe Milton wasn't so shit of a poet that he wanted all readers of his work to feel the same levels of pity, or lack thereof.

>> No.4724804

>>4724798
Lucifer was the cause of the original sin. We just went over this. That was his goal

>> No.4724805

>>4723927

It's a retarded bait reading that some asshole on here started a while ago. The idea is that Holden makes a few freudian slips and indications in his language that can prove that he raped his sister phoebe. This would explain why he is in a mental asylum, why he hates himself so much and why he isn't able to make a move on grown women / girls his age. This is all justified because Holden is an unreliable narrator and therefore you can see everything he says as a lie and read whatever you want into it.

Again, retarded trollbait, do not touch.

>> No.4724806

>>4724804
Prometheus? Prometheus

>> No.4724809

>>4724802
His rules aren't unreasonable. Breaking them involes committing a selfish or destructive act

>> No.4724811

>>4724804
But that was after the fact, like what this guy said >>4724722
He became evil, but started with good intentions.

>> No.4724812

>>4724803
It's still important for the question if his image of Lucifer ("Lucifer wants you to pity him.") is based on Lucifer's dialogue, or of Milton's description thereof.

I am honestly interested, I haven't read Paradise Lost yet but plan to (english not being my native language.)

>> No.4724814

>>4724811
His intention was to over throw God because he wanted the power. His intentions were always selfish. He was always driven by greed, arrogance and a lust for power

>> No.4724817

>>4724814
And how is that any different from Old Testament God?

He'd probably do a better job.

>> No.4724822

>>4724814
And from another perspective, that's exactly what God did to Baal.

>> No.4724825

jesus with his naive pacifism

>> No.4724826

>>4724812
I don't think that's very relevant. Homer wanted Achilles to look like a bit of a jackass, but probably not on the level of total whiny piece of shit most readers perceive as today; we don't ask "What did Homer want?" in regard to our degree of sympathy toward Achilles. Just like Milton's personal feelings aren't important here, and being the genius he was I'm sure he knew readers would react differently because readers don't all feel the same feels in regard to prompting like some trained animals. Fuck, the creators of Lilith certainly didn't *want* her to be sympathetic, but she's often seen as a very sympathetic character today..

>> No.4724827

>>4724817
Why do you think Lucifer was his favorite? He saw so much of himself in him. He couldn't help but love him above all others

>> No.4724833

>>4724826
You still don't get what I am saying.

Anon said
>Lucifer wants you to pity him.

Then I asked:
>Is this based on what Lucifer said, or what Milton described?

There is a difference between
>"I am very pitiable!", said Lucifer.
and
>Lucifer was very pitiable.

I do not care, nor did I ever ask for, what Milton "wanted". I just want to know what Milton _wrote_

>> No.4724836

>>4724833
The only part that would make you pity him comes in the form of a monologue, so its definitely the first one

>> No.4724842

>>4724836
Not really, it is totally possible to describe a character's circumstances, actions and motivations on a way to make the reader sympathize with the character, without having the character speak.

Or do you mean this in a specific way? If then, I'd love to see a quotation. Not just for this argument's sake, but really also for my enjoyment. As I said, I haven't read Paradise Lost yet.
Of course, only if you, or anyone, feels like posting this.

>> No.4724844

>>4724833
I didn't read Lucifer as an inherently sympathetic character from a narrative perspective.

He makes arguments on his behalf, such as rulership without representation being unjust, but I don't really think "pity" is good word to describe what he's soliciting.

>> No.4725067

Rogozin

>> No.4726379

whats the name of that guy in BK, well I like him.
dropping the 'leg' on his own blood, like totally psyching up ya whole family tree with one move. oh why, why, why is he so alpha

>> No.4726449

>>4726379
Burger King?

>> No.4726479

>>4723433
how is it set in the 20s?? it's surely set in the late 40s???

>> No.4726492

>>4726479
Could be. I've always heard 20's. Either way, beat it = 60's.

>> No.4726500

>>4722409
Mehmet II in Waltari's The Dark Angel. Nero in The Roman is good as well, but too neutral for villain.

>> No.4726516

>>4722429
He didn't have any redeemable qualities or further motives, it was just Dostoievski showing what degenerate could result from adding Ivan's nihilism/Europeism to a unhappy peasant orphan

>> No.4726722

>>4722409
Obadiah Hakeswill

>> No.4728407

>>4722496
Winston dies at the end? What makes you say that? Maybe metaphorically, but he wasn't shot.

>> No.4728861

>>4724748
Oh god, those teeth and vicious attitude.
The fucker creeps me

>> No.4729172

>>4722724
>Julius Caesar
>Villain

>> No.4729175

>>4724757
Christian detected.

>> No.4729185

i remember my old english teacher pointing out a load of shit in paradise lost about how milton puts all these hints into lucifer's speeches to make the reader aware that he's full of shit

lots of puns on the word soul
i.e. to do evil shall be our sole delight (will de-light their souls)

it's a long while since i read it though

>> No.4729203

>>4729172
>>4729172
Overthrow a republic in an attempt to create an empire with him ruling supreme

Sounds like a villain to me

>> No.4729253
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4729253

>Ctrl+F
>Search "Snape"
>No results

I'll go with Snape.

>> No.4729256 [SPOILER] 
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4729256

>>4729203
Reminds me of someone.

>> No.4729286

>>4722427

I wouldn't call Javert a villian outright, he is simply doing what he believes to be the right thing, upholding the good law of the people. Javert had a very troubling childhood, surrounded by criminals and destitute types. Being in such an environment cultivated a strong dislike for anyone not on the proper side of society. He is simply trying to right the wrongs of his parents, and misguidedly trying to prevent other people going through what he went through. He pursues Valjean relentlessly for this reason. Throughout most of the story Valjean is a third time felon. First offense for the theft of the bread, second for parole violation/theft of the Bishop's silver, and third for the theft/"armed robbery" of Petit Gervais' 40 sou piece. Javert sees this and only this, only Valjeans crimes, and not everything else about him. To see the other aspects of his character would humanize him and absolve him, something Javert believes to be impossible of criminals.

Javert is not a villian in Les Miserables.

The Thernardiers/Patron-Minette are.

>> No.4729295

>>4729253
implying he's a villain

>> No.4729349

AM is a pretty sadistic ai.
Does Leto II count as a villain?

>> No.4729457

>>4729295
When you accept Voldemort as your lord and master, he actually is.
Don't tell me anyone still reads HP as a manifesto in favour of love, instead of power and violence in order to achieve what you want. Voldemort brought change in the static, conservative world of wizardry. He entered an ethical disputable zone, with the constant use of forbidden spells, to make a point. To progress. To go beyond the puny world wizardry was pushed in by mere muggles. The only thing that stopped this noble plan was, in fact, Snape.

>> No.4729459

Is Lucifer really a villain or just an anti-hero ?

>> No.4729481

>>4729459
I have another question concerning Lucifer: Augustine lets God create the world as something absolute Good: Sin doesn't exist, there's no radical choice to be made by the angels. YET! Lucifer revolts against God. This has to be a GOD DEED, Right?

>> No.4729674

>>4723243
novel's villain: Willie Stark
novel's tragic hero: Jack Burden

>> No.4729772

>>4729481
I think Augustine would chalk that up to humans- and angels, for that matter- not being able to fully fathom God's ways. There are reasons for him doing things that we simply aren't able to comprehend.

Which is sort of a copout, admittedly, but there you have it.

>> No.4730569

ITT: people who haven't read Surprised by Sin: The Reader in Paradise Lost by Stanley Fish
All of those instances where you think God is being a dick have double meanings, and if you were truly pure and innocent you would only see the positive (and true) meaning.
Milton is constantly reminding you that you are not as innocent at Adam and Eve.
But seriously, find that essay. It's a great read.

>> No.4731054

>>4729457
/pol/, pls

>> No.4732320

>>4731054
Not /pol/, sorry. I'm just sympathising mostly with villains. And I like Nietzsche

>> No.4732323

Mefisto

>> No.4732333

>>4732323
Mephistopheles, I mean. Curse you, transcriptions.

>> No.4732437

>>4732333
I find this a decent choice.

>> No.4732948

>>4728407
He was told he wouldn't die until he loves Big Brother, then at the end he loves Big Brother. Seems pretty simple to me.