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/lit/ - Literature

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4667289 No.4667289[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Fantasy writing, /lit/

I've came up with and trashed so many plots for stories that I'm killing more trees than knights kill dragons. My problem is conceiving a good antagonist in a fantasy setting.

I, invariably, end up with "an ancient evil" as the big bad. Each villain I come up with, a tyrannical king or an enslaving wizard, seems to much of a cliche and I accidentally create the foundation for "an ancient evil awakens."

How can you create a good villain in fantasy? Can the ancient evil trope work? same with the tyrannical king? Does the antagonist have to be a big evil bad guy?

>> No.4667303

How good are you at thinking up normal antagonists?

Because you could always make up one of those and ask yourself what he would do if he were in a setting where magic and gods and creatures were real.

>> No.4667317

For me, I try to come up with desires for my villains that go against my protagonist, and work the character around that. For instance a hero who wants to rescue a princess would be matched against someone who wants her himself. Doesnt need to be instinctively evil, just a desire that comes into conflict with the main character. Then you write other details like the antagonist is willing to kill for her, etc.

>> No.4667319

Think of somebody you think is a real fucking bad guy, and then try to recontextualize him in a fantasy setting

>> No.4667321

>>4667303

Well, I can come up with someone who has negative methods to achieving their goals (sane or otherwise).

But then it turns into too much of a cliche. Creatures become more like chained pit dogs, magic makes the evil wizard, and I can't work with Gods because an omnipotent being should not have mortal characteristics that would give them reason to intervene in any way, shape or form, for either good or evil.

>> No.4667322

think in shades of grey. have the villain be good in some ways.

try writing from the villain's pov and justifying his actions

>> No.4667323

Just do what I always do - have the villain be Lo Pan from Big Trouble In Little China

>> No.4667347

>>4667321
>and I can't work with Gods because an omnipotent being should not have mortal characteristics that would give them reason to intervene in any way, shape or form, for either good or evil.
but, that's what almost all gods have, especially in polytheism. the olympians were defined by their base mortal desires. the act of praying is asking god to intervene, usually on your behalf. you're right about one thing though: you shouldn't work with gods as you obviously don't understand them

>> No.4667356

>>4667321
The concept "God" does not necessarily contain the attribute of omnipotence, so I wouldn't worry about that. I mean there are a plethora of gods in human religious systems that are not omnipotent.

>> No.4667380

>>4667347

I do not care what myth and classic fantasy has established, I do not believe in writing all-powerful being that have base mortal desires - to attribute mortal characteristics to an immortal character is like saying black is white; it is wrong.

>>4667356

But it the concept does contain the attribute of omnipotence. A god is something that transcends life and understanding; it is more than just an enlightened being, it's a creature that casts aside everything that makes a mortal - emotion, desire, greed, etc.

>> No.4667393

>>4667380
So, just to be clear here, the argument you're making is that eg Zeus and Thor and Odin are not gods?

>> No.4667442

>>4667380
>mortal characteristics to an immortal character
If there is more than one god in the universe you're writing then some gods will probably more powerful than others, and maybe they don't like each other. Who says they need to have mortal desires? It's a fucking fantasy. You're the boss. You can invent a god that wants things beyond the mortal realm. Maybe what the mortals call "gods" are just more powerful beings, and not "real" gods of your limited definition.

Any villain/antagonist you make must have flaws. Any protagonist/hero you make must have flaws. Sometimes tropes (or 'cliche characters') are unavoidable, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Being already known and established by your audience, it means you have to explain less of the obvious, and focus more on the individual traits of the character, their actions and speech, their habits and quirks.

If you make someone totally perfect and clean, they'll probably be boring and 2D.

>> No.4667458

>>4667289
Does your story have a theme or is it just a narrative?

>> No.4667555

I hate the ancient evil trope. Antagonists that are not evil and actually have motives that you can relate to make for much more interesting stories.
But of course it's also a lot harder to get right, which is why it's hardly ever done.

>> No.4668026

I have the opposite problem OP. I keep shitting out settings and character that I love, but can't for the life of me come up with plots that aren't boring and/or cliché as hell. Maybe I should make some nerd friends and try writing video game plots instead.

>> No.4668119

Draft an antagonist fully, set out their entire backstory, their motivations, and when you insert them into your world think about what they would do in each situation. Let them guide the plot, not the characters fit the plot. (Not saying this is the only way to write, just mentioning it as it may solve this problem).

They don't have to start out being particularly evil. Develop them, let their evil develop as the plot progresses, based on the motivations and backstory you've already fleshed out.

>> No.4668134

What are some good books on the art of writing a proper fantasy novel?

>> No.4668135

>>4667289
Can you give an example of one the plots you've trashed where the antagonist was bad?

>> No.4668148

>>4667321
Who says Gods have to be omnipotent? AFAIK that's a specifically monotheist thing- and more a high-level theological one than the way most people understand their religion.

>> No.4668466

>>4667380
no wonder you're having a problem creating antagonists. before you've even begun you've shackled yourself to incredibly narrow views

>> No.4668472

>>4667289
>I'm killing more trees than knights kill dragons

Don't write. You're not good at it.

>> No.4668547

Asking /lit/ how to become a successful writer is like asking /r9k/ for dating tips or pick-up lines. Just sayin'.

>> No.4669275

>>4667393

No, the argument I am making is that Zeus, Thor, and Odin are archaic ideas of what a God is supposed to be.

>>4667442

>If there is more than one god in the universe you're writing then some gods will probably more powerful than others.

This is illogical. That is like saying infinity is less than infinity + 1.

>Maybe what the mortals call "gods" are just more powerful beings, and not "real" gods of your limited definition.

This is more logical. The characters of Almalexia, Sotha Sil, and Vivec in TES 3 are not real Gods, but mortals who used a device to attain great power. Despite that great power, they are not immortal and are susceptible to insanity.

Additionally,

>not "real" gods of your limited definition.

My definition of a god is the logical and correct definition. A god with mortal characteristics or a mortal personality is fiction.

>>4668472

I apologize. It was a bad analogy.

>> No.4669303

>>4669275
Are you religious?

>> No.4669315

>>4669303

Why?

>> No.4669331

>>4668466
>>4669315
You'r definition of a god is extremely restricted and unworldly.

>> No.4669334

Have you ever considered looking at... history?

The bad guy isn't "bad". Maybe they're the Ottomans and you need to whip out a Battle of Lepanto on their ass. Maybe they're a Martin Luther and they're fucking the status quo because they deeply believe something (and are backed by powerful people who see (economic/political) prudence in backing him).
Maybe they're inflammatory revolutionaries who are so fucking shortsighted their shitheaded "democracy" will cause incredible suffering (witness the Jacobins or Robespierre.) Or ma

People aren't bad for no reason. That isn't to say villainous, irredeemable villains can't be excellent antagonists/characters. But the "bad guy" always thinks he's doing good. Maybe he is doing good. Or maybe it's just a matter of profit and politics.

>>4669275

>This is illogical. That is like saying infinity is less than infinity + 1.

Funny that you use the Tribunal as an example, since TES is well-known for having weaker and stronger "gods" (witness the Aedra/Daedra)

>> No.4669345

I am in the same boat, OP. In the setting I've been working on, the people believe that the parts of the ribs of a giant serpent that are sticking out of the ocean are the various worlds of inhabitance, and that you ascend to the next rib when you die, until you reach the head. Then you can join up with the gods, drinking till the Apocalypse.

So I'm thinking the villain ought to try disrupting this cycle somehow, maybe bringing souls from the lower ribs to our own, or jumping ahead a few or even going straight to the finish line. I'm not sure.

>> No.4669347
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4669347

>>4669275
>A god with mortal characteristics or a mortal personality is fiction.

So you're writing a non-fiction fantasy? By your own logic, if your definition of god transcends mortal understanding, then not every characteristic of a god has to fit within the parameters you think are "logical," because you are a mortal, and your readers are all mortals, and therefore you are inherently incapable of fully grasping the nature of such a god.

These arbitrary, contradictory rules you're pulling out of your ass are holding you back. You say you are not interested in the precedents set by past myth/fantasy and then cite a game inspired by the same myth/fantasy to back up the things you think are "logical."

All characters must have flaws. Don't call your antagonist a "god," and your personal, inviolable rules can remain pristine. Problem solved. Jesus tapdancing Christ.

>> No.4669356

>>4669345
Because the theme of ascension isn't used enough in fantasy already.

>> No.4669363

>>4669356
Ehh, that's just their religious belief. An antagonist doesn't necessarily have to tie into it.

The people the setting focuses on are living in a post-collapse imperial society, so the it's generally more about the struggle to survive and keep civilization afloat than religion. In fact, it's pretty low magic, humans only.

>> No.4669381

>>4669331

Your question is flawed.

If I am religious, the explanation would be that I've "shackled" myself to one explanation of a God. If I am not religious, then I am attempting to put rationality to an irrational being.

You should have asked "Are you spiritual?"

Regardless, you see my definition as restricted and unworldly but is that not what a God is? A God cannot be measured by worldly standards and the laws of what a God can and cannot do is restricted. An immeasurable being looks beyond mortal desire and emotion because it is weakness. And a God with weakness is not a God.

>>4669334

You, and other posters, have given me something to think about. Perhaps I have been focusing too much on the plot to look at characters and their motivations/backstories.

Further, I do see the irony in the use of the Tribunal as an example. However, the TES universe is so complicated that one cannot attribute "Gods" to the beings called the Daedra and the Aedra. One has posited that there is only one God, the "Godhead" or writers of the game's lore.

>> No.4669387

>>4669381
>An immeasurable being
If this sort of god is immeasurable then how can you claim to have a complete definition of it in the first place?

captcha: uggloop provoked

>> No.4669395

>>4668134
"How to Write Fantasy: or Just Copy J R R Tolkien" by Christopher Paolini, Terry Pratchett, Patrick Rothfuss, Brent Weeks, Ursula K LeGuin, Robert Jordan, and L H Franzibald

>> No.4669430

>>4669347

Perhaps fiction was not the best word.

My "arbitrary" and "contradictory" rules could be holding me back, but it is my opinion of what a God should be. I am sorry this angers you, but you have your opinion and I have mine.

I cited an aspect of the game, yes. I did this because the story of the Tribunal is an interesting portrayal on how near-unlimited power affects mortals: Vivec embraced his role as a leader and embraced the people, thus he grew emotionless and uncaring over time. I have no doubt he would have ended up eventually like Almalexia, who embraced the power fully went insane from it, driving her to kill any who could be called an equal. Sotha Sil embraced his machines, became a recluse, and went insane in the clockwork city.

A God has power so great, that it is incapable of experiencing mortal feelings or having mortal thoughts.

>> No.4669479

>>4669430
Basically you're an idiot and that's why you're having problems. Don't worry though, it won't matter anyway because even if you could think of a good antagonist you would still never write anything worth anyone's time.

>> No.4669483

Have you considered having the gods fuck the dragons? /lit/ seems to like that sort of thing.

>> No.4669485

>>4669387

My definition does not so much say what a God is, but what a God is not. A god is an immeasurable being; which means that it can terminate any threat, any challenge to its power.

>> No.4669492

>>4669485
So what if there is more than of one these Gods? Maybe they don't get along for Godly reasons.

>> No.4669495

>>4669479

Basically, I have an opinion that makes your bum ache.

Sorry my opinion causes you so much offense.

>> No.4669509

>>4669492

But that begs the question why there would be more than one God? Wouldn't only one god be necessary to create the universe? And if there were two Gods, would not their combined power destroy the universe from their power? Infinity plus infinity?

>> No.4669512

>>4669381
TESfag here.

The Godhead isn't the writers at Bethsoft. Your understanding of the lore is impoverished.

>> No.4669526

>>4667289
"Villains by Necessity" Eve Forward will tell you all you need to know about villain motifs, and also show you how to do them right.

>> No.4669528

>>4669512

My apologies.

But my point about the writers being the "God" of the universe stands.

>> No.4669534

>>4669526

Thank you.

>> No.4669538

>>4667323
Thank you, I needed that laugh.

>> No.4669542

you see anon, you can't write a good antagonist because you try to follow the rules. Lead antagonists that follow the rules of fantasy have been tried and tested for so long that there's no 'logical' character you can come up with that isn't some sort of cliche. So instead of trying to create a truly original character, I advise you write a shit antagonist like you normally do and change them in some way that makes things slightly original.

>> No.4669557

>>4669509
You are trying to use mortal logic to understand something you've already said transcends mortal understanding. Just because something doesn't make sense to *you* doesn't mean its existence is impossible. If such gods existed then by their very nature you wouldn't be able to make complete sense of them. Your logic is self-defeating.

If there is no conflict in a story then what's interesting about it? Nobody wants to read a story without struggle, where everything is perfect and goes along smoothly. That's boring.

>> No.4669585

>>4669381

>TES universe is so complicated

No. It isn't. It's pretty much watered-down hindu cosmology+ highly overrated "deep" shit made by the egomaniacal MK.

Seriously fuck MK and fuck c0da.

>> No.4669603

Make the most awful creature seem relatable, or pitiable. It's something I guess.

>> No.4669629

>>4667323
Carlton Mellick III goes on /lit/?

>> No.4669633

>>4669557

I used mortal logic to answer a mortal question.

For all one may know, "God" as we know it is a pointless concept to describe something with immeasurable power. In fact, to ascribe it as one thing or multiple things is pointless. Or maybe imagining any force that has immeasurable power is irrational and inane.

>> No.4669644

>>4669585

Wrong word, then.

How does "convoluted" sound?

>> No.4669656

>How can you create a good villain in fantasy?

Make him the protagonist. Or write him as if he could be the protagonist, with an history, motivations, and a point of view of his own.

>> No.4669665

>>4669656

Sounds good.

FF Tactics Advanced was one of my favorite games too

>> No.4669670

>>4669665
>FF Tactics Advanced

wat ?

>> No.4669737

I would look to making an antagonist like Cao Cao.

>> No.4669764

>>4669670

The protagonist of FF Tactics Advanced is the villain of the story.

>>4669737

But isn't Sima Yi the real bad guy?

>> No.4669783

>>4669764
No he isn't, you're just a delusional twat.

>> No.4669795

>>4667289
my main antagonist is the society that has formed in the world. the story is more about how people deal with the society. One guy runs away to the end of the world and just wanders the edge. Another wants to change the way people think and act. I don't even know if I'll put in an actual antagonist.

>> No.4669813
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4669813

>>4667289


make the antagonist a 'very modern evil awakens' instead.

a specter haunts the lands of idyllica, beings throughout the nation are held fast in its grasp, and seek ruin on those without it. men love this specter, they love the idea of it, because the specter flatters them, but it brings them ruin all the same.

yet how do you kill an idea?

>> No.4669891

The "bad" guy doesn't exist. Only someone/thing which opposes/opposed by the "hero" you don't even gave to make that distinction you could sue with both or neither. Keep writing interesting characters until you write enough conflict to satisfy. Make moral/philosophical assertions about the events if you must (please keep them in dialogue).

>> No.4669902

>>4669891
Have... use... Fuck me

>> No.4669911

OP you've spent this whole thread making up rules for yourself out of thin air and then wondering why you can't create anything that isn't cliched. You probably shouldn't write at all since you've obviously never had an original thought. You're looking for a writing formula, meaning the best you could ever be is a successful hack, but not a great writer.

>> No.4670043

>>4667289

go with an anti hero, have him emerge as one of your character and have him grow opposed to your main over the course of the story.

Let them see the birth of the villain. An antagonist need not always be a villain, merely in opposition to your protag

>> No.4670123

Make the villain a dragon named Carlton whose sole desire is to fuck the Godstone (Basically the wellspring which all magic comes from), with the heroes trying to stop him because if Carlton fucks the Godstone it will become pregnant and in nine months birth a new world, with the old one being destroyed by the Godstone's birth pains.

>> No.4670151

>>4669902

Sorry, you have to take me to dinner first ;)

>> No.4670225

>>4669275
>A god with mortal characteristics or a mortal personality is fiction.

YOU ARE WRITING FICTION

>> No.4670606

>>4670225
zing!

>> No.4671709

>>4667289
Make the antagonist start off as a small-time bad guy - a petty thief, a minor member of a small-time gang, something like that, always just out of his depth and struggling to stay afloat. He can grow along with the protagonist. He doesn't have to start off as a chessmaster.

>> No.4673822

>>4669764
>The protagonist of FF Tactics Advanced is the villain of the story

Muh ruined escapist fantasy

Grow the fuck up, Marche was right.