/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.4622814]

Is avoiding suffering more important than trying to obtain happiness?

[Anonymous No.4622816]

avoiding suffering is for bitches

[Anonymous No.4622837]

>>4622816
nice argument dickhead

[Anonymous No.4622838]

one cannot know happiness without suffering. that's why hollywood millionaires are all on anti-depressants

[Anonymous No.4622839]

>>4622837
suck it fag

[Anonymous No.4622847]

Aren't the two basically the same? Besides, you'll need to define "important" in this case - "important"'s one of those weasel words we use in everyday speech a whole hell of a lot, but which is hard to pin down.

[Anonymous No.4622852]

Suffering is often the only path to true happiness.

Avoiding suffering leads to avoiding happiness.

[Anonymous No.4622855]

>>4622847
>Aren't the two basically the same
no. Suffering is unfulfilled hopes, dreams and expectations. "Happiness", as far as it exists, is the temporary satisfaction of these urges.

Important as in what should a thinking human being make the primary goal of it's life.

>>4622838
>>4622852
This doesn't add anything to the topic, as it is implied in the question that happiness and suffering are connected.

[Anonymous No.4622856]

>>4622814
Why are you asking us?

[Anonymous No.4622859]

>>4622847
I eat to avoid the suffering of hunger, but in truth I don't get any particular happiness from the food I eat 90% of the time.

You can extend this to a bunch of other things.

[Anonymous No.4622860]

>>4622814
Suffering is unavoidable, Schopy, unless you were able to attain a state of pure indifference or were left mentally disabled after an accident. You're welcome to try minimizing suffering, but it might actually have the opposite results, since you'd likely have to shut yourself away from the world and keep social interactions to a bare minimum to avoid being hurt. A lot of shut-ins are depressed and suicidal.

Suffering is bad, but you've got to learn to live with it. There's no other way, unless you're willing to kill yourself. Worst thing you can do is never take a risk and completely isolate yourself from the world.

[Anonymous No.4622868]

>>4622860
the unabomber would disagree

[Anonymous No.4622869]

>>4622856
Because it has been bothering me.
>>4622860
Yes, this is about what should we aim for in life. I totally agree that suffering can't be avoided entirely, since living is in a way suffering, but should we keep expactations and hopes at a minimum or go full carpe diem? Those seem to be the only logical consequences to me

[Anonymous No.4622870]

>>4622847
>Aren't the two basically the same?

Not really.

For example, the person who strives to attain happiness will ask the girl he fancies on a date without fear of being rejected. While the person who wants to avoid suffering doesn't, out of fear of being rejected.

This might cause one even more suffering in the long run however.

[Anonymous No.4622872]

>>4622855
No, it adds to the topic by pointing out that the premise of this topic is flawed, as are your very limited definitions of happiness and suffering.

[Anonymous No.4622880]

>>4622872
Elaborate please.

[Anonymous No.4622883]

>>4622870
women are the path to happiness.

my honey-boo to kiss my boo-boos

[Anonymous No.4622901]

>>4622869
>Because it has been bothering me.

No, you missed the point. Why are you asking /us/? Why are you asking anyone?

[Anonymous No.4622904]

>>4622855
unfulfilled hopes can be a relief for people tho, i mean i guarantee right now on lit there like a half dozen shut in nerds who live in the idea that they coulda wrote the great american novel if they had just stopped wackin it to cartoons for a little while

[Anonymous No.4622914]

>>4622901
because I can't come up with a solution myself and thought some input could help

>>4622904
most of the time they're a terrible burdon though

[Anonymous No.4622918]

>>4622814

If you aren't suffering you are actually happy. Most people are used to live in a half-state of constant worry because of impotence, financial insecurity and boredom. You don't think of this as suffering because you are bombarded with pictures from Africa, and of a thousand things that are supposed to bring you happiness, but if you try removing the static, you can find ecstatic happiness in simply being.

[Anonymous No.4622923]

>>4622914
that's because you're one of those kids from the "self esteem generation" where you parents told you constantly how special you are and how you're superior to everyone because you're mommies lil genius...well now you're grown up and still in ur dads basement doing nothing of value, so you feel bad, but it's not really your fault you got built up like that

[Anonymous No.4622930]

>>4622918
wrong because then all there is to sit around and wait to die, the "rat race" gives you something to take your mind of your impending doom

[Anonymous No.4622934]

>>4622918
I's not happiness you achieve I think, more of a "painlessness"

>>4622923
stop it

[Anonymous No.4622952]

>>4622934

You misunderstand, "painlessness" is the dulling of medication. If you realize all your worries and desires are psychological and unnecessary to be truly happy, i.e. that your happiness is not something outside yourself, you also realize that the absense of suffering and achieving happiness is the same thing.

[Anonymous No.4622961]

>>4622952
But you can't simply turn off your urges.
You still want things, relationships with certain people etc.
These things are hardcoded into your genes basically. That's where the problem starts.

[Anonymous No.4623060]

>More important.
loaded question

[Anonymous No.4623797]

>>4622814
Minimising suffering is the closest thing to happiness available to us.

[Anonymous No.4623803]

>>4622860
You're merely saying that inefficient ways of minimising suffering suck. Which is true of course. Luckily we have our dear lord Epicurus to teach us the good way.

[Anonymous No.4623839]

>>4622814
Maybe if we follow suffering we can find its root.

[Anonymous No.4623841]

“The art of life is the art of avoiding pain; and he is the best pilot, who steers clearest of the rocks and shoals with which it is beset.” - Thomas Jefferson

[Anonymous No.4623971]

>>4622814

Personally, no.

Zen Buddhism talks about detachment from desire being the key to avoid suffering. It can work, but it leaves you feeling not happy, not sad, just neutral and non-committal.

The problem is, if you have no desires, what are you doing? Just acting as a pawn for others to move while biding time before death? Monks may live their lives this way, but to what end?

I used this detachment as a coping mechanism while growing up, and saw the grey, lifeless destination I was headed for. Now, I'd rather ride the rollercoaster with its ups and downs rather than sit on the bench watching everyone else.

You have to experience suffering to appreciate happiness. You have to have challenges and goals to experience accomplishment and growth as a human.

[Anonymous No.4624343]

>>4623060
see >>4622855
sorry for the wording, I can see how it's not a good way to put it.

[Anonymous No.4624373]

>>4622961
I believe that it's true that you can't turn off your primordial urges, and there are no doubts in my mind that those who claim to have transcended them are acting. However, to give in to those instincts, as we are pushed to do, will leave you in a state of perpetual struggle, always thinking that when you get that NEXT thing THEN you'll be happy. So maybe embracing rather than succumbing to your instincts.
Shit, I feel like I was going somewhere with this drunk rambling, but I lost it.

Whatever.

[Anonymous No.4624407]

>>4624373
Well, you#re kind of going in a Camus direction there.

[Anonymous No.4624459]

>>4622814
More importantly, how do I do my hair like Arthur?

[Anonymous No.4624461]

>>4622930
Stop looking at death negatively then. Just think, "Wow, what an extraordinary life I get to experience before going on to experience pure, eternal bliss."

[Anonymous No.4624465]

>>4624373
>Whatever.

[Anonymous No.4624504]

>>4624459
You have to become a Super Saiyan.

[Anonymous No.4624505]

>>4624459
get a poodle, be a bitter NEET who reads a lot of Kant and the Upanishads

[Anonymous No.4624512]

I'd say obtain happiness is more important. That's why its less important to crush your enemies than succeed yourself and look back at your past silliness and laugh.

[Anonymous No.4624526]

>>4623971
not OP, but I did the same thing as you. I went into complete indifference mode by abstaining from any social interaction, gradually giving up desires, and just wanking myself silly every night. Before long, I did notice a reduction in suffering and I was happy, but then that happiness also dwindled because I had nothing to contrast it with. Life instead became neither painful nor happy, just poisonously stagnant. I probably would have rotted away. My detachment just made me bored. Bored, OP. Bored, numb, and ungrateful.

[Anonymous No.4624529]

>>4624526
Wow this has been my life lately too. The problem is I don't know how to remove the stupor.

[Anonymous No.4624534]

>>4624529
not trying to be edgy against you here, but honestly, get out more. If you don't already 'get out', start doing so.

Taking me for example, starting university is the best thing that has happened to me recently, because I'm experiencing things.

Go out and experience things, anon, go DO something. Allow yourself to have feels, even if they're bad, because then you can feel happiness in the escape of those bad feels.

[Anonymous No.4624535]

>>4624534
May I ask what you are studying at uni?

[Anonymous No.4624537]

>>4622814
if yes i have to kill myself... so no

[Anonymous No.4624538]

>>4622814
Obtaining happiness IS avoiding suffering. Unless it's some sort of quid pro quo, such as getting rid of a gf to obtain videogames.

[Anonymous No.4624561]

>>4624505
This sounds quite enticing actually.

[Anonymous No.4624566]

>>4624537
>implying suicide isn't just another futile gesture in a life filled with them
>implying suffering ends by suicide instead of merely changing form
>implying we aren't all the will itself, perpetually hungry, perpetually suffering, blind and immortal

[Anonymous No.4624585]

>>4623971
>Now, I'd rather ride the rollercoaster with its ups and downs rather than sit on the bench watching everyone else.
>rollercoaster
You mean working for eight hours a day, coming home to some hopefully not too awful food and some passable entertainment and if you're lucky/unlucky some other person who has just went through the same and is as tired as you are? All for a few sickly orgasms, a high and a hangover, an uncomfortable plane trip once a year to some hot place where you frantically try to maximise pleasure before it's over only to do it all over again?

[Anonymous No.4624586]

u wanna b mad? try not processing the sadness that results from suffering

u will b mad

[Anonymous No.4624610]

>>4624535
B.Teaching/Arts

you?

[Anonymous No.4624611]

>>4622814
Life is a short day; but it is a working day. Activity may lead to evil, but inactivity cannot lead to good.

[Anonymous No.4624615]

>>4624611
>implying the good isn't the absence of evil

[Anonymous No.4624617]

>>4624566
After suicide you won't know what suffering is however. Suffering is all just in the mind.

[Anonymous No.4624631]

>>4624617
>you
>isolated individual existence

[Anonymous No.4624687]

>>4623971
Detachment is not the same as apathy, you dumb fuck.

[Anonymous No.4624714]

After 2+ months of mandatory conscription I know now that suffering is extremely unavoidable and extremely impermanent. Also the Stoics are liars and there's no way you can 'negate' suffering and justify it as insignificant in part of a higher natural order when you're marching 8km with a heavy backpack and a rifle.

[Anonymous No.4624717]

>>4622814
Is trying to avoid getting hit more important than trying to hit your opponent?

The former is a defensive stance while the latter is an offensive one. In war, you know you're winning when your side is still on the offensive. So the answer is no.

[Anonymous No.4624721]

>>4624717
It's actually a preventive stance. You don't even engage in conflict, just quietly tip toe through the woods. Once you consider conflict a valid way of life you're lost already.

[Anonymous No.4624724]

>>4624721
That's called surrendering. It's a loss on your side.

[Anonymous No.4624727]

You love your family? Your family brings will only bring suffering since you will care for their well being.

Just accept that life is tragic

[Anonymous No.4624728]

>>4624721

preventive = defensive

[Anonymous No.4624739]

>>4624724
Surrendering is like not getting cancer treatment. This is more like not getting cancer.

>>4624728
There's no need to oversimplify things.

[Anonymous No.4624740]

>>4624739
If life is cancer to you, then you'd already have cancer.

[Anonymous No.4624741]

>>4622814
Happiness as a state of modest well being relies mostly on the absence of suffering, a good routine and good people. Happiness and avoidance of suffering coincide.

If by happiness you mean puppy petting euphoria, it isn't available as a lasting state.

[Anonymous No.4624742]

>>4624740
Not life, but living badly.

[Anonymous No.4624743]

>>4624742

"living badly"

it's like you think that means something

[Anonymous No.4624746]

>>4624742
Life IS conflict though, which makes "living badly" mean "living at all." So your statement doesn't make sense.

[Anonymous No.4624749]

>>4624739

>There's no need to oversimplify things.

says the guy who is preaching avoiding conflict in life

[Anonymous No.4624757]

>>4624741
you're not happy in that state though, just content. You're making an argument from semantics

[Anonymous No.4624762]

>>4624743
Yes, just like "disgusting icecream" means something.

>>4624746
Of course I use the concepts to distinguish between 'relative harmony' and 'relative conflict'. I thought that would be obvious.

As for grand statements such as "life is conflict", that's as nonsensical as saying "life is blue." You can't apply the extreme of a single dichotomy to the the whole of existence because by doing so it fails to distinguish anything and loses meaning.

[Anonymous No.4624765]

>>4624757
So are you, since you say that happiness is something other than contentedness. People have widely differing concepts of happiness.

[Anonymous No.4624773]

>>4624762
>You can't apply the extreme of a single dichotomy to the the whole of existence because by doing so it fails to distinguish anything and loses meaning.
Life is conflict, death is peace. Life and death are part of the "whole existence," so there's no one side of the spectrum being ignored here.

[Anonymous No.4624784]

>>4624773
Peacefulness refers to the experience of unconflicted existence. Death doesn't have attributes, it's not a state. Merely a convenient concept.

[Anonymous No.4624791]

>>4624784
Unconflicted existence is a concept.

[Anonymous No.4624820]

>>4624791
That actually refers to a state. Death isn't a state a person can be in.

[Anonymous No.4624821]

>>4622855

Well, whatever. This shit is all too Continental for me. It's not important anyways.

[Anonymous No.4624825]

>>4622814
Is avoiding disease more important than trying to obtain health?

[Anonymous No.4624836]

>>4624820
A state of death!

[Anonymous No.4624854]

>>4624836
Doesn't exist, just like a flame can't be in a state of extinguishedness.

[Anonymous No.4624861]

[Anonymous No.4624889]

All of my philosophical knowledge stems from Plato's work and I tried reading Schopenhauer translated to english and I understood fuck all.

>tfw probably legitimately double digit IQ or some shit.

[Anonymous No.4624936]

>>4624889
>tfw you didn't understand the cave analogy

[Anonymous No.4625183]

>>4624585

Nah. Giving up detachment doesn't mean acceptance of the rat race.

[Anonymous No.4625189]

>>4622814
>avoiding suffering
leave pretentious skinny hipster.

[Anonymous No.4625190]

>>4624889
Schopenhauer is actually very easy to understand (at least in german) because of his clear style

[Anonymous No.4625323]

>>4625190
Well fuck me.

[Anonymous No.4625348]

>>4625190
Do I need to read on Kant to understand Schoppy? Like I said, I've only read Plato's works (and some Hume, but that's not because philosophy, but more about history general).

[Anonymous No.4625354]

>>4625348
Well, he strongly ecommended his viewers to read Cunt, but I think a basic understanding of his idealism and metaphysics should be enough (it was enough for me).

[Anonymous No.4625364]

>>4625354
>viewers
wtf, I meant readers

[Anonymous No.4625370]

>>4625354
>but I think a basic understanding of his idealism and metaphysics should be enough (it was enough for me).

So reading out his Wikipedia page should do it for me I believe, since Plato/Socrates introduces me to metaphysics already. The World as Will or Fourfold Root first?

[Anonymous No.4625377]

>>4625370
The world as will and representation is a good starting point

[Anonymous No.4625383]

>>4625377
And after that Parerga und Paralipomena

[Anonymous No.4625390]

>>4625377
Any particular English version that comes to mind or are they all well translated?

[Anonymous No.4625393]

>>4625390
sory, german master race here, can't help you with that

[Anonymous No.4625405]

>>4622859
Well, maybe you should eat a better diet in this allegorical hunger of yours, or more varied and interesting food.

[Anonymous No.4625427]

Yes. That's why, given the supernatural means to end all life instantaneously and indefinitely , it would be extremely immoral to not do it.

[Anonymous No.4626025]

>>4625189
>/fit/ hiveminding itself into the illusion of profoundness

[Anonymous No.4626158]

>>4622814
No. Better to suffer and live than to stay safe, do nothing and wait for death.

There, I've said it in an internet forum, now hopefully I can go out and live it.

[Anonymous No.4626168]

>>4626158
>Better to suffer and live than to stay safe, do nothing and wait for death.
suburban heroics itt

[Anonymous No.4627281]

>is avoiding buzzword1 more arbitrarily better than trying to obtain buzzword2

[MtMattics !!58hTUK7XbfZ No.4627333]

>just accept that life is tragic
As opposed to what m3+6-1, blissful?

>life is beautiful
>life is sad
>life is too short
>life is too long
>life is x y z

It's fine throwing aphorisms for aesthetics or intellectual insight but more often than not, people embrace these concepts as something factual even in the cases they are consciously aware of the arbitrary nature of such things.

>life is what you make it to be
If you're really into life aphorisms, i find the above better than most and more accurate.

>>4624727

[Anonymous No.4627355]

>>4626168
You disagree?

[Anonymous No.4627357]

>>4622923
Out of interest, do you think it's a bad thing that this generation has been raised to be ambitious?

[Anonymous No.4627375]

No. Suffering is a purgatorial experience. Unless it's unbearable, you'll come out of it a happier and better person.

[Anonymous No.4627737]

>>4627355
All people who have actually suffered a lot disagree. The only people who talk heroically about suffering are either ignorant or insincere. Take Nietzsche.

Published works:
>will to power fight war vitality danger build your keks on vesuvius aristocats all day

Personal correspondence:
>oh how i long for the epicurean garden my sweet friend, with your tender delicious company, i have suffered so long, i must take opium, where can i find sweet rest

[Anonymous No.4627895]

>>4624534
I'd do this if it wasn't so fucking old. Fuck the cold seriously

[Anonymous No.4627910]

>>4627737

but Nietzsche constantly experienced horrific sickness that made him go through near-constant pain and insomnia

[Anonymous No.4627913]

>>4622814
Neither one is inherently or objectively "important." Which one is more important to you, OP?

[Anonymous No.4627922]

>>4624585
my ideal woman is a parasitic jew vampire who like the oligarchs i work for in perpetual wage serfdom will suck my worthless monopoly capital and lifesblood from me in exchange for her boring emotionally dead WASP body and as our youths fade with our various sacs limbs extremities, and other assorited body chunks congeal and harden into callous or sag and rot away as is their own particular wont while we spend our "free" or "pleasure" time in mute dumb silence like cows grazing and stupidly staring at whatever gay spectacle of corn appears before us

[Anonymous No.4627926]

>>4627922
>jew
>WASP

[Anonymous No.4627929]

unless depression is considered a form of suffering, i would say trying to obtain happiness is more important.

[Anonymous No.4627934]

Power is more important than survival. If survival was all that mattered (i.e. avoiding suffering; getting your daily meals and nothing else) we wouldn't have come as far as we have. It's because of people with ideals, dreams, creativity, and the desire to exercise their will over the world that we've come so far.

[Anonymous No.4627979]

>>4627910
Yes, and did everything he could to flee from it, constantly complained about it, was out of his mind on opium and sedatives all of the time, contemplated suicide and wished for a quiet simple contemplative life with a few good friends at his side.

[Anonymous No.4627982]

>>4622814

The two are inseparable. When you seek happiness, you invite suffering whether you like it or not

[Anonymous No.4628052]

>>4623797
I like this picture.

[Anonymous No.4628346]

Avoiding suffering means avoiding power because it avoids change.

[Anonymous No.4628354]

>>4627979
>All people who have actually suffered a lot disagree.
>The only people who talk heroically about suffering are either ignorant or insincere. Take Nietzsche.

>but he did suffer a lot, his entire life!
>Yes, but that doesn't count. He complained about it, so it means he wasn't really suffering and invalidates anything else he said.
uhh dude what

[Anonymous No.4628644]

You have to embrace some suffering and hardship or you don't progress as an individual. Trying to obtain happiness is good but I find it's often less productive as a whole and it can lead to hedonism if unchecked. Seeking out happiness often doesn't better your standing in life.

[Anonymous No.4628744]

>>4624585
life is what you make of it right? So, if getting high or drunk it's the best part of one's day, then let it be. What you're doing is perpetuating the stereotype of the common life, and only making people believe that's how life is lived when you should break out of that kind of thinking and enjoy the trips you go to, do something you enjoy doing during these 8 hours and have orgasms and get drunk with people that are enjoyable

[Anonymous No.4628964]

Happiness is but an Island in the sea of suffering.

You have to make the journey in order to reap the reward. But for me the journey at this stage of my life is way way more enjoyable.

Embrace sadomasochism of the self.

[Anonymous No.4629045]

>>4624534
This is great advice. Distract yourself with nice people or a fun activity with others and you will soon forget about your stupor.

[Anonymous No.4629260]

>>4628744
>one must imagine Sisyphus happy

Nope.

[Anonymous No.4629377]

>>4628354
I'm not saying Nietzsche wasn't sincerely suffering, I'm saying that his literary output wasn't sincere.

[Anonymous No.4629439]

>>4622814

>happiness
>obtainable

[Anonymous No.4629459]

>>4622814

You don't really need happiness if you aren't suffering.

I would say avoiding suffering is more important.

[Anonymous No.4629478]

>>4629459

Happiness is temporary anyway. In my opinion, being happy is irrelevant. You get acclimated to happiness, and then it becomes tedious and you want something else to make you happy.
Having happiness as a goal is fucking pointless.

Not suffering is more important.

[Anonymous No.4629483]

>>4622814
Happiness isn't actually attainable. Suffering is everything for conscious beings.

[Anonymous No.4629505]

>>4622814
>Avoiding suffering.
>Obtaining happiness.

Trying to do both makes one suffer. There is suffering in life, and there is happiness in life. Everyone has and will go through both.

Tao/Daoism

[Anonymous No.4629522]

>>4624861
>preaching delusion with this amount of fervor

sounds like an optimist, alright

[Anonymous No.4629531]

>>4624861

Sounds like that glad game crap from pollyanna

[Anonymous No.4629539]

>>4629522
kek

[Anonymous No.4629558]

>>4627737
Obviously there's a balance to be struck, but my point is, there are people on this website who do nothing - no friends, no job, only venturing beyond their room to collect essentials - because they're too scared of failure to try.

[Anonymous No.4629580]

>>4629558
Only difference between staying on the computer all day and going and doing 'x' is arbitrary connections in your brain. Once you come to realise the nature of value judgement it's difficult to be talked out of doing whatever you feel like by people who don't know what they're talking about.

[None !!lZetafI6z8s No.4629674]

you can do both

[Anonymous No.4629726]

I've enjoyed this thread and I'd like to know if Schopenhauer will make me feel less suicidal. I've felt incredibly detached from life for some years so tried to get back involved in the past few months and it's terrible. Everything I do feels like suffering in one way or another, even a date I went on tonight that seemed to go fairly good just made me feel like I was transferring my suffering onto someone else. Is there any escape from this besides from going back to being NEET?

[Anonymous No.4629731]

>>4629505
>you can't completely avoid suffering you there's no need to move away from the fire

[Anonymous No.4629766]

>>4629558
Or, you know, they legitimately don't want those things. Which is quite a sensible position.

[Anonymous No.4629772]

>>4629726
Schop's argument against suicide is pretty fuckin' bad, IMO. He'll take you to the brink and if you're gullible enough, pull you back just a little. Otherwise, your intelligence will carry you off the cliff.

Read Schop anyway, truth is infinitely more valuable than happiness.

[None !!lZetafI6z8s No.4629787]

>>4629726
schopenhauer will only make you feel worse. if you want to feel less depressed get into something more remedial than brooding, like buddhism or epicurus or something

[Anonymous No.4629830]

>>4629726
Schopenhauer often makes me laugh out loud because he's almost cheerful in his slandering of life. He's very enthusiastic about being a grumpy cunt and extremely witty. There's something very freeing about blatant pessimism to me. Feels like coming home and taking your shoes off or something. Honest and comfy, not constantly trying to be something you're not.

I often felt and sometimes feel like you described and fought it for a long time but ultimately decided to give in to my nature and just quit uni, quit working, quit relationship, quit every possible responsibility except for collecting welfare. Threw away most of my possessions. Moved back in with my parents into a shitty little room. Do fuck all except for sleeping, preparing and eating my meals, taking walks and reading books. Often I just lay around. And to be honest, I haven't been this content since I was three years old. It's the best life there is for me, but for most people it isn't. If you're like me though, any other lifestyle will probably make you miserable.

[Anonymous No.4629857]

>>4629772
>>Read Schop anyway, truth is infinitely more valuable than happiness.

i would read but fuck i'd need to read on PC

[Anonymous No.4629865]

>>4629580
where can I read up on this so I can justify my lifestyle of idleness

[Anonymous No.4629871]

>>4624861
>Delusion

And define "suffering", op.

[Anonymous No.4629902]

>>4629865
depends if you're trying to justify it to yourself or to other people

[Anonymous No.4629905]

>>4629865
Stirner is the best at justifying doing whatever you feel like.

[None !!lZetafI6z8s No.4629913]

>>4629830
pessimism is a source of joy for me too. i think it just depends on whether you have a sick mind (which can be made worse by schopenhauerianism (see: suicide)) or a sensitivity to the abundance of pain in life (in which case schopenhauer can inspire a more fitting lifestyle (see: goatism/smoking weed all day))

[Anonymous No.4629934]

For me, avoiding pain just brings me more.

I binge on food, videogames and books, and I isolate myself, and I sleep till noon.

These things are so much better in the moment, because the sugary snacks and mindless entertainment, the lack of social anxiety, and the lazy days require so little effort.

But day after day, this turns into hell. I achy and withdrawn and unfulfilled and fat.

I don't know if a productive lifestyle will bring me happiness, but I do know that the avoidance won't. I'm hoping that I will be happy one day.

[Anonymous No.4629938]

>>4629830
>>4629913
you guys clearly haven't experienced true suffering

[Anonymous No.4629942]

>>4629934
No one is fulfilled.

Also, do some MDMA.

[Anonymous No.4629957]

>>4629913
Yes, ultimately it comes down to the 'chemistry' between your own cranial sludge and the paper dead guy.

I don't smoke weed though.

[Anonymous No.4629966]

>>4629938
Why would you say so?

>>4629934
That's not avoiding pain, that's just infant hedonism. Avoiding pain would be an Epicurean lifestyle.

[Anonymous No.4629999]

>>4629934
>>4629934
Think of what you could be doing with your time.
I live similar lifestyle, Schedule wise. I go to school twice a week. The other days I am free to do as I like. Like you I play video games, I read a lot, I sleep until noon some days too, The difference is I have an ideal I want to strive for, it allows me to create a schedule for myself. I exercise everyday, I go to the gym 4 days a week, I have a clean diet, I socialize with people I like. The freedom I have and the activities I do create my happiness, I don't look for it, I make it exist.

step it up

[Anonymous No.4630006]

>>4629999
We're not stupid enough to be content with arbitrary distractions and delusions

I'm glad you are, though (not being facetious, I am genuinely happy for you).

[Anonymous No.4630014]

Suffering is attached to the level of intelligence of the person. Ignorance is a bliss.

[Anonymous No.4630027]

>>4627979
That's what we all want. I can glaze at the people walking on the street and wish with all my heart that I was one of the. I envy their simplicity. I envy their ignorance. Nietzsche accepted that what he felt was envy. He envied the cows. Schopenhauer never accepted this and tried to find explanations for his envy.

[Anonymous No.4630028]

>>4630006
Who is really under the illusion.
You're probably thinking there is an objective world and then complaining why you can't find a human construct. Living without illusion means whatever you want it to.

[Anonymous No.4630044]

>>4630028
could you please re-word that entire post so that it makes sense

[None !!lZetafI6z8s No.4630049]

>>4629957
haha, i was referring to zetaite-aristipusseanism-as-of-late - i'm one step away from rasta swim trunks, i've already started eating too much taco bell and skimming through verhoeven films. oh my god

[Anonymous No.4630074]

No. Obtaining happiness is more important. Suffering is an important experience to the human existence, and it is also important to discovering and understanding what exactly makes you happy.

[Anonymous No.4630076]

Can someone more intelligent than me explain to me why the self is an illusion?

[Anonymous No.4630087]

>>4625405
You know this wasn't the point he was making. he was supplying an aphorism; just some food for thought.

[Anonymous No.4630096]

>>4630076
buddha can

[Anonymous No.4630101]

>>4630096
Did Schopenhauer think the self was illusory? I know he ripped off eastern philosophy so surely he must have said something regarding the self

[Anonymous No.4630116]

>>4630076
Most conceptions of the self have trouble reaching unity. A basic one would be Freud's ego-superego-id: to what extent do unconscious thoughts and actions belong to you or to your "self"? Or to what extent is the ego determined by superego and id? I don't know much about Freud so there's probably a real answer, but you can apply this to a lot of models.
Strictly speaking, I think that Buddhism recognizes a sense of self (or self-sentiment) as one of the body's faculties in the same way the sense of pain is a faculty, it just doesn't have metaphysical significance; or, there isn't a singular "driver" in control, as is suggested in Phaedrus.

[Anonymous No.4630125]

>>4630076
I'd advise you to talk to an expirenced practicioner of mediation if you want a sound explanation. Most of these kids just read books and just become walking encyclopedias rather than actual knowledgable folk.

[Anonymous No.4630139]

>>4630076
You're a colony of cells, and every action you take is in reaction to a colony of other multicellular organisms. Not even taking into account the deterministic nature of classical physics, and how it makes free will questionable, your "self" is little more than a colony of smaller creatures that collectively self identity through an assigned label: A label not even assigned by "your self."

Shouldn't affect you on a daily basis though. One of those back-of-the-mind things.

[Anonymous No.4630150]

>>4630101
pls respond

[Anonymous No.4630154]

>>4630150
I personally don't know, but your best bet is reading Schopenhauer, or at least perusing through his wikiquote article

[Anonymous No.4630162]

>>4630154
did anyone ITT actually read Schopenhauer

[Anonymous No.4630168]

>>4630162
/lit/ doesn't read, we just form an accretion of terms and aphorisms to spout later in a befitting context and thus seem intellectual

[Anonymous No.4630188]

>>4629766
Except I specifically referred to people who do want those things, as can be found in any baww thread.

[Anonymous No.4630206]

>>4630188
Only unintelligent people are interested in such things. If you're sufficiently smart you won't be able to make friends, because you require someone equally intelligent to stimulate you, and fewer and fewer people are genuinely intelligent.

[Anonymous No.4630210]

>>4630206
It's not a question of intelligence so much as it's a question of being genuine and openminded and thoughtful.

[Anonymous No.4630231]

>>4630206
But let's pretend you're entirely serious and indisputably correct; the loners who truly want companionship must be unintelligent. This doesn't change the fact their overzealous avoidance of suffering is reducing their quality of life.

[Anonymous No.4630327]

>>4630101
Schopenhauer considers all things to be 'illusory' since they're manifestations of the Will which is all.

[Anonymous No.4630902]

>>4630101
According to Schopenhauer, we are all manifestations of the will, so in a way we are all one. I don't think that he specifically talked about the self.

[Anonymous No.4630997]

>>4622860
>Worst thing you can do is never take a risk and completely isolate yourself from the world.
That doesn't sound that bad, I've often considered moving up to a cabin in the woods to focus on yoga and mathematics for the rest of my life.

[Anonymous No.4631007]

>>4623971
I did the same thing but smoked weed, went for long walks, played piano, and studied. Couldn't say I was ever not happy really.
I dont get why people thing existance is some negative or neutral state, or that they need to be feeling like they're having sex all the time while frolicking with puppies in a feild of power to be happy, there's a great alount of contentment that can be derived simply from reading a good book on a warm balcony with a cold drink.

This summer I'm planning to move up to the woods and spend all my time hiking and studying, it is at times the only thing that gets me through my day job and personal relations. "Taking on society" is overrated.

[Anonymous No.4631019]

>>4625189
>Not spending your time excercising and improving yourself while avoiding futile pleasures like drugs and sex which only end up hurting in the end
Self improvement is pretty much the definition of avoiding suffering.

[Anonymous No.4631029]

>>4628644
>You have to embrace some suffering and hardship or you don't progress as an individual
How do you define progress as an individual?

I study and read for hours a day, go for long walks, eat well, and spend an hour a day playing the piano- all because I genuinely enjoy this and my routine gives me pleasure. I've tried over lifestyles, but the more I try to "escape" my routine or "progress as an individual" I only end up suffering while at the same time growing stagnate and only wishing I could return to my long march forward as a happy NEET with a big library.

[Anonymous No.4631030]

>>4628964
>Happyness under capitalism

All you need is land to farm, books to read, and a wife who loves you more than you do her.

[Anonymous No.4631042]

>>4629934
>I binge on food, videogames and books, and I isolate myself, and I sleep till noon.
Thats trying to find happiness, poorly as well. If you want to avoid suffering, force yourself to escape things that cause you to suffer. Make yourself wake up at 6am, take a two hour walk, and eat a large healthy breakfast, then spend the day reading, working, excersicing, and being productive. Around 6 or 7pm smoke some weed, fix a warm bath, and feel better than you've ever felt before.

[Anonymous No.4631044]

>>4630006
>We're not stupid enough to be content with arbitrary distractions and delusions
>still striving for an objective world to the point you suffer for it
Have fun wasting your life fool

[Anonymous No.4631085]

Q: Would you trade one hour of the worst suffering for one hour of the most euphoric pleasure?

A: No.

Therefore it's more important to avoid suffering. You avoid being eaten by the lion before you go in search of honey.

[Anonymous No.4631121]

>>4631085

You are an ignorant coward. Enjoy the rest of your complete lack of life.

[Anonymous No.4631132]

>>4631085
>>4631085

>Therefore it's more important to avoid suffering. You avoid being eaten by the lion before you go in search of honey.

This is only true to extent that the suffering results in demise. Why not simply commit a painless suicide? The big cats couldn't hurt you then.

[Anonymous No.4631322]

>>4631044
>implying life can be wasted

[Anonymous No.4633321]

>>4631132
>painless suicide

tell me more

[Anonymous No.4633356]

>>4631085
This. There isn't a joy in the world that I would allow myself to get tortured for in return.

[Anonymous No.4633815]

>>4631085
Spoken like someone who hasn't experienced that hour of pleasure yet. For those that already have, they would experience suffering AGAIN if necessary. Hell, some people are even smart enough to realize that the suffering is always necessary.

[Anonymous No.4634612]

>>4633815
Spoken by someone who hasn't been tortured yet.

[Anonymous No.4634643]

Does college bring freedom? I feel like if life is the same as it is now when I go to college that I may as well just commit suicide. I'm hopeful that not having the barriers of my parents and the apparent freedoms of college will rejuvenate my life and bring something new with it, prolonging my living.
Otherwise, I might just commit suicide, or maybe fulfill my ultimate dream of getting a house-like RV and travel the country, playing music to feed myself and for gas.

[Anonymous No.4634648]

>>4633321
Replace the oxygen in your lungs with inert gas (but not CO2). There are machines which can help.

[Anonymous No.4634653]

>>4634643
>killing yourself
>not breaking the cycle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Forest_Tradition#United_States

off you go.

[Anonymous No.4634680]

>>4634653
That sounds great but I'd still like to do whatever the fuck I want. If one morning I feel like going to a bar and fucking some whore, I want to be able to do that. Do you get any free time to yourself in a monastery? Can I just go off and do whatever?

[Anonymous No.4634698]

>>4634648
>That story about the guy trying to kill himself on /b/ but helium is running out ao they give a mix that doesn't kill you
>Swearing in a high pitched helium voice

Oh my poor keks

[Anonymous No.4634733]

Nope. One should try whatever he can to obtain happiness (of course, happiness is subjective, and isn't limited to "satisfy X urge").
Suffering is almost always guaranteed during this path, and shouldn't be avoided at all. Firstly, because if you avoid suffering, 99% of times you are derailing from your path to happiness (say, to get your dream job you have to study like hell. If you avoid the suffering of having to study a lot of time, you also avoid the happiness deriving from the job).
Second of all, because, EVEN if such suffering can be avoided to ultimately reach your goal, you'll have wasted a chance to learn from that suffering, and you'll be not prepared when such a difficulty comes once more.

Tl;dr: Pursue your personal happiness, confront suffering and learn from it.

[Anonymous No.4636433]

>>4624821
>Continental
Nice buzzword and sweeping generalization, but who am I to say this? I'm just another meme-spewing faggot on 4chan

[Anonymous No.4636462]

>>4634733
Suffering is always guaranteed taking any path, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to minimise it. Also, your example relies on avoiding suffering badly. If that job is absolutely required for you to be content, then acquiring that job is avoiding of suffering to a greater degree than not acquiring that job, thus justifying the suffering of the studying in order to miss out on the suffering of being unsatisfied in your working life.

Of course the best way to avoid suffering would be to live an ascetic lifestyle, but most people lack the strength or insight to live like that.

[Anonymous No.4637150]

>>4634733
Sinec when is "serving X coorperation" or "owning Y" really the height of human acheivement though?

When is possesing some lofty goal the only way to be happy?

For me, happyness is waking up in the morning and watching the sun rise with a hot pot of tea. Unless you consider having a sleep schedual which requires me to get up at 5am every morning "suffering", I don't see how I must suffer to live a good life.

[Anonymous No.4637169]

>>4622814
No. Speaking from experience, if your main goal is to avoid suffering, even if you succeed, you end up in a limbo of apathy and boredom. You aren't suffering, but the days slip by and blend together into an endless stream of grey sludge.

Seeking happiness is much more stimulating. You won't always find it, and sometimes you'll encounter soul crushing pain and suffering instead, but you'll feel Alive. And over time, you'll come to appreciate the bad times as much as the good.

[Anonymous No.4637186]

You can hold yourself back from the sufferings of the world, that is something you are free to do and it accords with your nature, but perhaps this very holding back is the one suffering you could avoid.

[Anonymous No.4637206]

No. That's would be like saying avoiding food that tastes bad is more important than trying to enjoy good food.

[Anonymous No.4637341]

>>4637186
>tfw no chris moltisanti biopic of kafka

[Anonymous No.4637345]

>>4637206
I'd rather have a boring meal than steak with a side of dogshit.