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/lit/ - Literature

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4493667 No.4493667 [Reply] [Original]

I think human consciousness, is a tragic misstep in evolution. We became too self-aware, nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself, we are creatures that should not exist by natural law. We are things that labor under the illusion of having a self; a secretion of sensory, experience and feeling, programmed with total assurance that we are each somebody, when in fact everybody is nobody. Maybe the honorable thing for our species to do is deny our programming, stop reproducing, walk hand in hand into extinction, one last midnight, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal.

>> No.4493669 [DELETED] 
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4493669

EUPHORIC

>> No.4493674

>>4493669
>>4493667
It's funny because this well written monologue which gives great insight into this withdrawn and depressed character will be dismissed because Christian fundamentalists hijacked the fedora meme to fit their own deluded agenda. Anything that even comes close to espousing atheistic or nihilistic tendencies can be refuted by spouting this trash

>> No.4493675

>not understanding that the conscious parts of the universe are a fundamental part of the universe
>not holding being as transphenomenal and phenomenon as secondary

kek

>> No.4493677

>>4493667
>>4493669
Probably samefag

>Anyone who has an opinion that doesn't consider God as a central factor refuses to shave the hair under their chin and sports out of date headwear.
>implying the writing in the first episode of that show isn't better than anything OP could churn out in their whole lifetime.

Are you mad that a fictional character might have a different opinion than you for no reason other than to have two protagonists with opposing ideologies or are you mad that Mathew McConaughey got his shit together and is on his way to becoming the GOAT actor?

>> No.4493679

>>4493675
Those are way to many big words. SPEAK ENGLISH PLEASE

>> No.4493683

>>4493677
The show has a heavy streak of Cormac McCarthy and James Ellroy here, not to mention a dose of The Wire, Michael Mann (and a pinch of David Lynch). So it should be good.

>> No.4493688

How can you look at civilization and say that evolution done goof'd?

>> No.4493700

>>4493683
All I know after watching is that I want to see Mathew tackle something like Macbeth or Iago.

>> No.4493712

>>4493688
What do you mean?

>> No.4493715

>>4493679
Quantum physics needs an observer to delineate states of waveform non-being into defined states; in much the same way, from an abstract angle, the gestalt sensory data of a cup or a table doesn't give us the being of a cup or table; it is consciousness that delineates sensation and being. Yet, this being isn't something behind the object, nor is it part of the object's appearance, it is a construct of the conscious mind.

tl;dr: consciousness creates the universe (phenomena), and it can't be said whether or not there is anything there without it.

>> No.4493717

>>4493715
you're wrong but I don't feel like explaining why

>> No.4493720

I'm convinced that having a sense of self is not exclusive to humans at all.
Fundamentally, what having a sense of self implies is possessing the ability to understand "one's" spatial positioning. I think most animals have this concept embedded.
I think human beings in their rational superiority (seemingly, I guess) merely managed to extrapolate a metric shit tonne of implications out of this basic spatial sense of positioning. That'd be the progression from the proto-ego into the more-so formulated kind of ego.

>> No.4493722

>>4493688
Humanity has reached our plateau. Progress continues but at a rate incompatible with the combination of our population and resources.

>> No.4493723

>>4493688
technology has done infinitely more harm than good

>> No.4493724

>>4493715
It's like you took Plato's theory of the forms and added your own pseudo-science to it.

>> No.4493726

>>4493723
From what perspective?

>>4493722
So? Growth will peak, slow, crash, and recover into a new paradigm. It might suck, but that doesn't mean that the species is in peril, only that selective pressures are going to escalate.

>> No.4493735

>>4493726
Yes humanity has shown growth, peak, crash, recovery; but if there are no resources and more people than the planet can support at the tip of the peak what recovery cab you see? Back to the stone age, only this time the world is full of irradiated ruins and no oil/iron/fertile land to be tapped into?

The circumstances of the world as we live it and could conceivably forsee can create the kind of people who believe what McConaughey's character says. We are not all so strong to see what you see in civilization and the future of man.

>> No.4493758

So, Schopenhauer gets praised but a fictional character in an American TV series that basically just simplifies Schopenhauer's thoughts gets labeled a fedora? Life offers more pain than pleasure for everybody, most people just dismiss it or deal with it in public.

>> No.4493762

>>4493758
/tv/ memifies things in a desperate attempt to illegitimise worldviews that devalue their own. this place is worse than /b/, i don't know why you're expecting anything different

also schop only gets praise on /lit/, and even then only selectively

I like how Rust quoted him almost word for world regarding being a father being the greatest sin

>> No.4493763

If consciousness (whether "human" or not) exists, then it exists solely by virtue of natural laws. How could it exist, yet not be a part of existence? There is no reason to suppose such a separation, and such a supposition is the very illusion of self OP mentions. This illusion is born of the attempt to consider the self out of context: to consider self-in-itself. The fact that we can conceive of self-in-itself does not make it extant, yet our faith in imagination is surprisingly powerful; and well that it is, as wrapped in that ability is our sensory interpretation faculties which constructs our perceived reality.

>> No.4493768

>>4493762
i just realised i'm not on /tv/. woops. i've had a large dosage of valium. all my points remain valid

>> No.4493769

>>4493768
How can one make valid points under the influence of valium?

>> No.4493770

>>4493715
>look i watched the secret guys XD

>> No.4493771

>>4493769
how can one not?

>> No.4493772

>>4493715
>Quantum physics needs an observer to delineate states of waveform non-being into defined states
wrong. The photons we shoot at subatomic particles to observe them make them change, not our "consciousness" seeing them.

>> No.4493777

>>4493768
To be fair, I don't know why OP keeps shitposting that meme here

>> No.4493778
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4493778

>>4493772
>implying anyone who uses quantum mechanics in their arguments actually understands it
Not directed towards you, but yeah. This is one hell of an annoying fucking trend to observe.

>> No.4493779

>>4493667
>nature created an aspect of nature separate from itself

Nature is no entity but a concept.
Also...

>natural law

>> No.4493780

>>4493777
his life is empty and this gives him some small measure of enjoyment, i assume. which, ironically, would suggest he has an inclination to accept the worldview he is supposedly deriding, anyway

>> No.4493781

>>4493778
I was wrong. Measuring a system on a quantum level can change it, but the measurer doesn't need to be a conscious being.

>> No.4493785

>>4493781
>but the measurer doesn't need to be a conscious being
Then who declares the change?
Jesus Christ, quantum mechanics is a model that fits our observations, it's not The Written Word about the underlying reality and what's it really like.

>> No.4493787

>>4493785
The methods whereby quantum measurements are made are imperfect, and as such have an unavoidable effect on the result.

>> No.4493789

>>4493781
I wasn't really trying to have a dig at you anyway. I respect your ability to admit your fault.
Either way, so many arguments based on quantum mechanics just blatantly fail to illustrate anything of substance.
I personally think it's a pretty healthy view to regard quantum mechanics through the lens of instrumentalism. Kind of what >>4493785 seems to suggest.

>> No.4493792

>>4493735
First of all, I don't see history as progressive, so a move to a 'dark age' lateral rather than vertical.

Second, anything short of total annihilation is a promise for a new future; civilization is not so dear to me as people, because people are the greatest thing to ever happen, not because of their various works or specific knowledge, but because of their capacity to innovate and to do labour.

Labour is how we relate ourselves to the world, and how we can redefine both our world and our selfhood.

>>4493758
While it is true that life is suffering, I don't believe this requires resignation towards life. When one stubs their toe, one doesn't forego tables or walking in order to be freed of the pains of it happening, do they?

I believe one should accept the pain of life as a part of life, and when it comes, to fully experience it, perhaps even to learn to welcome suffering as a teacher.

>> No.4493794

>>4493785
Lel. It's measured beforehand, the results are printed out, the experiment is disposed of, and the results are viewed.
Well, all this could happen, and it would still work. I understand what you mean, but I think you're incorrect

>> No.4493819

>>4493667
>when in fact everybody is nobody
what does this even fucking mean

>> No.4493836

>>4493819
Everything is nothing and nothing is everything. Quantum mechanics!

>> No.4493837

>>4493819
>>4493819
nobody actually has a self. it's pretty damn obvious. are you an idiot?

>> No.4493842

>>4493837
If we're "programmed" to feel we are somebody, doesn't that mean we are?

>> No.4493843

>>4493842
no

>> No.4493854

>>4493843
Then explain what being is, please. Or what self is. Because I sure seem to experience it. Could be false, but I exist, I think, I live. *I* - a compilation of experiences and sensations - am. What am I?

>> No.4493855

>>4493854
Just ask yourself in what sense illusions exists. Just like in our case with the ego here, they exist as ideas but have no correspondence externally. Basically, a perception. Does the centimeter exist other than an idea? No.
Hope that helps.

>> No.4493872

>>4493855
It does not. >>4493763 is me explaining how I see it. What you've said doesn't add anything, but I appreciate the attempt.

An illusion cannot exist without something which experiences the phenomenon and understands it (or doesn't) as something which is not the case. It does not exist as separate from that which experiences it, but neither does it exist as separate from that external cause (sense-data). It does not exist *as idea*, the idea of its existence is caused by real data. As such, it does have a correspondence externally. Take the example of a stick bent by refraction of light when partly submerged in water, this illusion has a completely real, extant cause - the idea corresponds to external reality.

>> No.4493875

>>4493872
>the idea of its existence is caused by real data

highly debatable

>> No.4493886

>>4493872
All right, allow me to highlight an example.
You're observing a distance. As you observe this distance, which just is in and of itself as far as you know, you start projecting your perception onto it and as a result you may be convinced that the distance is so and so many centimeters. But the centimeter is not any more real than the millimeter, or any other metric. This is the point at which you project a perception.
Even the very idea of the distance is ultimately a perception. As far as we /know/, reality can be this Platonic sphere of complete invariability.
I would argue that where you're going wrong is accepting the premises as they are. That is to say, you immediately accept that there is such a thing as a distance, and therefrom you proceed to apply logic. The logic is just fine, but the premises aren't as solid as you make them out to be.

Anyway, it's been nice arguing and such, but I got to get moving to the campus... I won't be here to reply any further.
Good day, Sire.

>> No.4493896
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4493896

>>4493886
I approved this post until
>Good day, Sire

>> No.4493908

>>4493688
Too many undesirables are breeding. Intelligent white couples have 0-2 children. White trash have 3-4. Niggers and other subhumans have 4-5.

>> No.4493913

>>4493674
>close to espousing atheistic or nihilistic tendencies can be refuted by spouting this trash
No it cant.

Of course, you might take those shitposters too seriously

>> No.4493928

read cyoran bro, he is like "conciousness is the nightmare of nature" 24/7

>> No.4493940

>>4493896
the fuck off outta here you complete retard

>> No.4493941

So what sort of crime novels are similar in their tone to this?

>> No.4493945

>>4493908
When in fact we should all stop breeding. Imagine the hubris it takes to yank a soul out of non-existence and into this...meat; to bring somebody into the thresher.

>> No.4493949

>>4493928
that's cioran you giant pleb

>> No.4494044

>>4493945
agreed. people will never stop though because they're selfish little cunts

>muh sex
>muh precious life

>> No.4494272

>>4493941
bump.

>> No.4494420
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4494420

Such a great series. I still can't comprahend that something of that level of entertainment exists. The acting, the writing, the cinematography, the direction.

If David Fincher fucked David Lynch while H.P. Lovecraft jerked off, this is what you'd get.

>> No.4494456
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4494456

>>4493941

You could try Between Here and the Yellow Sea (stories),
Galveston (novel), the only two published works of Nic Pizzolatto, the creator of the series.

Haven't read them, but they must be good if the guy was instantley given a chance at this kind of budget.

>> No.4494513

>>4493949
Y am so avant garden lol, y wryte ys as is

>> No.4494520

>>4494420
It's not that fucking good. It's like the only good show currently on.

>> No.4494576
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4494576

>>4494520

No love for Justified, eh?

Not saying this is best thing out there, but it definatly has a real promising start. Which series would you rate higher judging by their first two episodes?

>> No.4494620

>>4493941
This show references Robert W. Chamber's The King in Yellow. Read that one.

>> No.4494887

>>4494576
Justified's pretty awful at season 5 so far, I haven't seen the third episode though

>> No.4496657

>>4493886
Cool sensory secretion bro.

>> No.4496660

I AM THE ONE WHO SOCKS

>> No.4496662

>>4494456
I just read Galveston, it was not great, kind of felt like a young man trying to write No Country For Old Men.